Monk (Water Dancer) and what it gets.


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, I am using Herolab.

It included the Elemental Defense power when I leveled up to 2nd level. From what I can read and look at, the Archtype should not get this power.

Am I right?

This is on top of the Monk Damage going below the minimum level of Monk Lvl 1. (I had to add die damage in Adjustments to have it register correctly)

I did report both bugs to the Herolab PF bug reporter on their site.

For now, I just need to mark off the power, as it doesn't effect the character if not activated.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Anyone? Am I right that Elemental Defense is not granted by the Archtype?


To start with, I'm not very familiar with the archetype or the kineticist class. But after reading everything, I can understand how it might be interpreted to give you the defense. It reads as though it's just an expansion of the elemental focus power, but you are correct that strictly speaking it's listed as a separate ability which is not called out by the archetype.

It looks like, if you didn't get the defense automatically at 2nd level there would be no way to get the defense.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That is what I am thinking as well. Having a Monk with an AC of 22 or 26 at second level is a bit much.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

For my character, it would give him an ac of 22 (23 if I spend a burn specifically for it)

Since I already have an ac of 18 without it. This is as the character wears no armor at all.


Never trust HeroLab.
Nowhere in either the Kineticist's Elemental Focus ability or the Water Dancer archetype is Elemental Defense mentioned at all; it is a separate ability and therefore you do not gain it.
Water Dancer is a terribly written archetype anyway. You get your Wisdom AND your Charisma added to your AC, but you don't get Gather Power or even Internal Buffer so there's no way to reliably do well with the entire point of the archetype. You're also relying on Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma at the very least, as well as wanting Strength and/or Wisdom if you want to get the most out of your class features.


Bloodrealm wrote:
You get your Wisdom AND your Charisma added to your AC

What do they get that adds wisdom to AC?

They change the normal AC bonus to key off of Charisma instead of wisdom.


willuwontu wrote:
Bloodrealm wrote:
You get your Wisdom AND your Charisma added to your AC

What do they get that adds wisdom to AC?

They change the normal AC bonus to key off of Charisma instead of wisdom.

Which leads to you getting your charisma to your AC twice: once as an untyped bonus from a monk's AC Bonus feature (as you replace Wis with Cha for "the effect of monk class features" including "AC Bonus"), and once from Nereid's grace as a dodge bonus.

Considering Dodge bonuses stack with everything, even other dodge bonuses, you can use Osyluth's Guile to add it a third time when fighting defensively (so get Crane Style). Also taking Devoted Muse as a PrC lets you add your Cha to AC a fourth time as a Dodge bonus. For Cha to AC five times over, become a ghost.

I figure this is only appropriate for a highly specific NPC.


Nothing in Water Dancer alters or replaces AC Bonus; nothing touches it. The feature that gives Charisma to AC replaces the first level bonus feat and changes the Ki Pool's keyed ability score. The only thing that MIGHT imply it changes the ability score of AC Bonus is "He uses his Charisma score instead of his Wisdom score to determine the size of his ki pool and the DC and effects of monk class features." In that case, though, you might be getting your Charisma mod as an untyped bonus to AC and CMD as well as your Charisma mod as a dodge bonus to AC. It's horrendously worded.

EDIT: Ninja'd!


I figure the archetype is a non-starter for anything except AC Shenanigans, since giving someone the kineticist's burn feature without any of the four burn mitigating features the kineticist has just makes everything but "basic blasts" too painful. Like you *might* want to eat a point of burn for all day 20% concealment after level 14, but you'll never want to use metakinesis even though you have it.


Well it's not like they get infusions so they dont really have a place to use burn besides talents. It does have better range ability than a regular monk since they target touch AC with a decent damage, for an at will ability; Granted I agree its underpowered from flurry.

Metakinesis is weird, but I agree there is no much point to it (if any).

Also yeah, where this archetype excels is Cha shenanigans. With Noble Scion and you use Cha for Init. A lv 1 dip into Okayo Corsair let's you use Cha for Int and Will pre-reqs. Artful Dodge and Cha is used for Dex pre-reqs. Become a worshiper of Desna, and now you only need Dex for Ref, AC and your touch Atk (if you choose not to get conductive starknives).


The blast is just terrible. Besides not getting burn mitigation the water dancer also doesn't get elemental overflow or composite blasts. A ranged touch attack may be a reliable hit but remember besides cold resist/immunity it is also resisted by SR (a particular problem for a dip) and has a flat maximum 30' range.

Cha to AC can be achieved by non-water dancer dips, e.g. nornkith or scaled fist standard monk, scaled fist unchained monk, or lunar or nature oracle. I think every one of these offers more than the water dancer monk.


they get wild talents so they can pick the universal ones to increase range\ drain cold sub type creatures (so some of the cold resist\immune are fair game...of sort) etc.

then again as mentioned with no burn mitigation mean very little advanced usefulness.


I dont deny the blast is underpowered, I stand that it does give more versatility due to scaling ranged touch attack > random crossbow.

I don't see a problem with some creatures being able to resist it, and a character that can't be stopped by anything is broken. If a player picked this archetype in a heavily cold campaign, its definetly the player's and GM's fault, just like choosing an aquatic archetype on a desert campaign is the player's and GM's fault.

* Also as zza ni stated there are ways around immunity.


The only time I would consider playing a Water Dancer Monk is also when I am dipping two levels into Elemental Ascetic Kineticist. Strictly to get the burn reducers and regain flurry. The trade off being limiting your blast to augmenting your melee attacks, but it fits the monk style.


A water dancer can't get infusions, just utility wild talents. Which for water and universal do not include range extenders, that's just air (air's reach) which the water dancer can't get single-classed. Draining infusiion is an infusion so their way around cold resist/immunity is to get out their crossbow or just to punch the enemy (which might be better with a little multiclass, true.)


i never played a kinatic or water dancer so i wouldn't know for sure. but from the way it show up in the archive them infusions are also under wild talent along with the so called utilities and nothing in both the kinatic or wter dancer make any exepction betwin picking them when one get a wild talent.
-as far as i can see infusions are just a type of utility that can be used on blasts.

for example under the Universal at the archive it shows all these under wild talents :

Wild Talents
Simple Blast - N/A
Composite Blasts - N/A
Defense - N/A
1st - draining infusion†, elemental whispers, extended range†, infernal bargain, kinetic blade†, kinetic fist†, skilled kineticist
2nd - blade rush†, focused blast†, kundalini infusion†, skilled kineticist, greater, spindle†
3rd - elemental grip, elemental trap†, elemental whispers, greater, extreme range†, flurry of blasts†, kinetic restoration, kinetic whip†, mobile blast†, snake†, stylish infusion†
4th - expanded defense
5th - blade whirlwind†, grappling infusion†, kinetic form, spark of life, wall†
6th - ride the blast, whip hurricane†
7th - shepherd of souls†
8th - elemental exile, reverse shift
9th - N/A

back in 3.5 it worked the same for warlocks. where the abilities ot shape their blasts were part of the powers they could pick when they level (both warlocks and kinatic got some free when they levled ,but could pick more as part of their growing arsanl).
water dancer might not get free infusions like a kinatik. but he shoul still be able to pick them with hsi wild talent ability


Water Dancer, wild talents wrote:
At 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter, a water dancer selects a new utility wild talent

For comparison, under kineticist,

Quote:
Infusion (Su): At 1st level, a kineticist gains an infusion wild talent ... She gains additional infusions at 3rd, 5th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 17th, and 19th levels.
Quote:
at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, a kineticist selects a new utility wild talent

They're different things. In particular on the list you quote zza ni the infusions are marked with †'s.


idk. ill have to look again and be sure.
retrackted below


It's just weird the Water Dancer can't get Kinetic Fist.

It's like the Water Dancer and the Elemental Ascetic are orbiting around a good monk/kineticist fusion.


ok found it. seem like you were right.
"A kineticist can choose from among the following elements. Infusion wild talents are marked with a dagger (†); all other wild talents listed below from 1st-9th are utility wild talents. "

and the water dancer is set up only for utilities wild talents.


Well, strict RAW*, "At 6th, 10th, and 16th levels, he can replace one of his utility wild talents with another wild talent of the same level or lower." Notice how it doesn't say 'replace one of his utility wild talents with another utility wild talent'?

Hey, with that, all the archetype needs is the ability to spend ki as a substitute to accepting burn to be useful!

*) Which is what we're already using on the double-cha-to-AC front, right?


@PossibleCabbage: The psammokinetic kineticist is at least closer to that good fusion and may actually be there. The kundalini and stylish infusions make it work I think.

@Derklord: I think the double Cha to AC is intentional and the loose wording on replacing the wild talents is not...but hey, I'd allow it out of pity for the water dancer if nothing else. Though a utility wild talent might be more use than an infusion anyway.


Psammokinetic would need to dip monk/brawler to get flurry to qualify for stylish infusion, right?

Since multiclassing a kineticist is so bad (burn is based on character level not class level) I am genuinely not sure who Stylish Infusion is for.


Maybe it's for monks who dip kineticist. The 2 lv dip for Shroud of Water can be really useful. Same with Aether Defense, pseudo hp regen is better than no hp regen, + uber mage hand is awesome.


Psammokinetic is required to take air as their first element, then gets either a slashing damage blast or a fire blast. Their first defense talent is the air one though.

Yeah, they'd need a one level dip to get stylish infusion. This is not necessarily an unworkable problem IMO; burn will cost you based on full character level rather than full character level - 1, yes, but that shouldn't be a deal-breaker.


I am commiting necromancy to ask a question that I don't see answered here. What does this do WRT composite blasts and wild talent selection for a kineticist?

Assume a Monk(water dancer) 1 / Kineticist X. Assume the monk side selects Cold blast. Assume the Kineticist never selects the water element focus...

1) Does the kinetic blast damage stack?
2) When the kineticist gets expanded element, do they get more composite blasts, eg Cold and Air Blast = Blizzard Blast?
3) Can the Kineticist levels select utility talents from water; the character has elemental focus water?

EDIT

4) Can he use infusions from Kineticist with a) his Cold Blast and/or hypothetical cold Composite Blasts?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In general, there is nothing saying that your Monk/Water Dancer and Kineticist abilities stack at all -- they are separate pools of abilities.


While there's nothing written about it, the same class feature, same name and everything probably does stack class levels (not damage as a separate thing, just as part of the class levels) and the way kineticist's written infusions, composite blasts at L7 kineticist etc. will work just fine. Good idea.


same feature and same name doesn't necessarily means they stack. its weird and hard to explain, but it has to do with how a couple of FAQs interact and specific wording on stuff.

but given how spells and spell-like abilities can be affected regardless of class (Its why Sorcerer dips can be useful), I would say it probably does work.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

See the FAQ on Channel Energy for the counterargument.


Temperans, David knott 242,

could you please link those FAQ's?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Here.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Temperans wrote:
but given how spells and spell-like abilities can be affected regardless of class (Its why Sorcerer dips can be useful), I would say it probably does work.

Although it isn't a rule, in every case I can remember like the sorcerer arcana the rule is stated without the class:

"Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled."

As compared to channel energy:
"Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted."

I have never seen an example of an ability that works like the sorcerer that also contains the name of the class.


I didn't list the FAQs because I'm not sure on the number of FAQs that deal with classes having similar or the same class feature.

I know the Weapon Training FAQ that says Archer Fighter doesn't count as having weapon training cause the wording is different from the original and the Channel Energy one that David posted (although forgot it was about channel energy); But im not sure if there are more.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Temperans wrote:

I didn't list the FAQs because I'm not sure on the number of FAQs that deal with classes having similar or the same class feature.

But im not sure if there are more.

There are no FAQ that conflict, so having a similar FAQ generally informs how future questions will be answered.

Is there a specific question you still feel is unanswered?


There are a few FAQ that conflict or appear to conflict (looks at the spell-like ability for pre-reqs FAQs, and the how is a weapon treated vs wielded FAQs). But I was mostly playing safe since there have been times when I didn't know an FAQ existed, so I left my answer open to avoid giving bad information, in case there was such an FAQ.

I probably could had worded it better, but we are already past that point.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Monk (Water Dancer) and what it gets. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.