Ranger feat Crossbow Ace a trap feat?

[Mutty06]

I’ve been fond of the idea of a character with a big crossbow ever since the bolt ace gunslinger archetype. So when I read the crossbow ace feat for the ranger I got pretty excited. After crunching the numbers I became instantly less excited. This feat seemed to imply to me that you can focus on crossbows and be at least adequate, but my math showed he did less than half of a archer fighters dpr. Am I missing something here? Three actions used on reload then hunters aim using the precision hunters edge.

[Liegence]

It evens out a bit with running reload. The die increase is not to be dismissed as it multiplies on striking runes. Bows have their drawbacks as well - comp shortbows trade low dice for propulsion, but the dice scale on striking and less so than an Ace’s x-bow. Volley has its own problems as -2 attack is a nasty penalty. If you have to backpedal to avoid the penalty would you have been better off with a d10+2 Light Xbow and running reload?

Deadly is nasty though, but xbows say dump Str and put boosts elsewhere.

I don’t think it’s cut and dry. If you rely on an animal companion attacking (not supporting) and have running reload the xbow is pretty reliable.

Also fighter should consistently out dps a ranger I would think; but the ranger can bring the big fat meatshield

[lordcirth]

I don't think the heavy crossbow is great, but the normal crossbow is fine. d12 vs d10 isn't good enough for the extra action a lot of the time.

[ChibiNyan]

Yeah, it's not the worst with running reload, precision style and the feat that makes the crossbow hit 2 targets in a line. You need to put all on 1 big attack per turn, which is pretty likely to hit.

[Liegence]

lordcirth wrote:

I don't think the heavy crossbow is great, but the normal crossbow is fine. d12 vs d10 isn't good enough for the extra action a lot of the time.

If there was more range or an added weapon ability maybe, but since there’s not I think you’d only go heavy for sweet flavor. Assuming expected hit is 55%, you’re talking about less than a point of damage for an extra action reload.

[graystone]

ChibiNyan wrote:

Yeah, it's not the worst with running reload, precision style and the feat that makes the crossbow hit 2 targets in a line. You need to put all on 1 big attack per turn, which is pretty likely to hit.

Skirmish Strike and Running Reload can make it easy to pop out of cover, fire a big shot and move to cover again ready for another round.

[Deadmanwalking]

A normal crossbow plus Precision Edge + Running Reload + Crossbow Ace + Hunter's Aim + eventually Penetrating Shot makes for decent mobility and decent DPR on one big shot per turn.

I did some analysis at, rather arbitrarily, level 7. Bow DPR is around 22.8 with a longbow at that level (19 with a shortbow, 17.4 if using the longbow within 30 feet). This drops significantly (to 18.6, 15.5, or 14.4) on rounds they need to actually use Hunt Prey on (including, usually, the first round).

The crossbow, meanwhile, using Crossbow Ace + Hunter's Aim has a DPR of 17.55. Rounds when they have to Hunt Prey other than the first they instead deal 13.65.

And crossbow damage goes way up at 10th when you get Penetrating Shot, though it is split between two targets.

Really, it's not a maxed DPR build, but it has some neat stuff it does, needs less stat investment than bows (you need Dex and nothing else), and seems pretty reasonable in DPR terms.

[Arachnofiend]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

A normal crossbow plus Precision Edge + Running Reload + Crossbow Ace + Hunter's Aim + eventually Penetrating Shot makes for decent mobility and decent DPR on one big shot per turn.

I did some analysis at, rather arbitrarily, level 7. Bow DPR is around 22.8 with a longbow at that level (19 with a shortbow, 17.4 if using the longbow within 30 feet). This drops significantly (to 18.6, 15.5, or 14.4) on rounds they need to actually use Hunt Prey on (including, usually, the first round).

The crossbow, meanwhile, using Crossbow Ace + Hunter's Aim has a DPR of 17.55. Rounds when they have to Hunt Prey other than the first they instead deal 13.65.

And crossbow damage goes way up at 10th when you get Penetrating Shot, though it is split between two targets.

Really, it's not a maxed DPR build, but it has some neat stuff it does, needs less stat investment than bows (you need Dex and nothing else), and seems pretty reasonable in DPR terms.

The archery DPR is assuming you're attacking with each action, right? I imagine that just Running Reload makes the crossbow build feel good in some situations where a bow would not.

Granted, either way you're still using all three of your actions on DPR. That's more just a personal gripe with the way the Ranger is designed, it seems to be the most AM FULL ATTACK of the martial classes and has less reason to mix up their attack actions than a Fighter or Rogue would. Less of a genuine criticism and more just a reason the class isn't to my taste.

[Corvo Spiritwind]

Wouldn't a better title be "Are crossbows weaker than archery?" or something along those lines. PF2 forums has become the land of traps and math so tight that a Barbarian's AC becomes invalidated when he rages.

The core of the issue isn't Crossbow Ace, but that bows might have a more stable DPR. If it's bad with Crossbow Ace, then it'd be worse for others without it.

[citricking]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

A normal crossbow plus Precision Edge + Running Reload + Crossbow Ace + Hunter's Aim + eventually Penetrating Shot makes for decent mobility and decent DPR on one big shot per turn.

I did some analysis at, rather arbitrarily, level 7. Bow DPR is around 22.8 with a longbow at that level (19 with a shortbow, 17.4 if using the longbow within 30 feet). This drops significantly (to 18.6, 15.5, or 14.4) on rounds they need to actually use Hunt Prey on (including, usually, the first round).

The crossbow, meanwhile, using Crossbow Ace + Hunter's Aim has a DPR of 17.55. Rounds when they have to Hunt Prey other than the first they instead deal 13.65.

And crossbow damage goes way up at 10th when you get Penetrating Shot, though it is split between two targets.

Really, it's not a maxed DPR build, but it has some neat stuff it does, needs less stat investment than bows (you need Dex and nothing else), and seems pretty reasonable in DPR terms.

The archery DPR is assuming you're attacking with each action, right? I imagine that just Running Reload makes the crossbow build feel good in some situations where a bow would not.

Granted, either way you're still using all three of your actions on DPR. That's more just a personal gripe with the way the Ranger is designed, it seems to be the most AM FULL ATTACK of the martial classes and has less reason to mix up their attack actions than a Fighter or Rogue would. Less of a genuine criticism and more just a reason the class isn't to my taste.

Precision edge bow users do the best if you just use one action to attack each turn. Everyone keeps ignoring that option, but I think it's the best.

[Deadmanwalking]

Arachnofiend wrote:

The archery DPR is assuming you're attacking with each action, right? I imagine that just Running Reload makes the crossbow build feel good in some situations where a bow would not.

It is indeed, though an archer can take an action to move and just drop to the 'turns you need to Hunt Prey' DPR. Still, that's more of a price than the crossbowman pays.

Arachnofiend wrote:

Granted, either way you're still using all three of your actions on DPR. That's more just a personal gripe with the way the Ranger is designed, it seems to be the most AM FULL ATTACK of the martial classes and has less reason to mix up their attack actions than a Fighter or Rogue would. Less of a genuine criticism and more just a reason the class isn't to my taste.

That's fair. I think Running Reload makes this feel a lot less true even if it technically is, and citricking is quite correct that going Precision on a bow is also a valid option.

citricking wrote:

Precision edge bow users do the best if you just use one action to attack each turn. Everyone keeps ignoring that option, but I think it's the best.

This is absolutely true, though the DPR on two or three actions spent attacking remains somewhat inferior to the Flurry build, so it largely depends on what else you want to do turn-in, turn-out.

[Unicore]

It seems like it is pretty difficult to evaluate the defensive advantage of having a move action built into your standard attack routine from a pure power level point of view, but as cool as it is that the archer is one of the most reliable "attack with every action" builds, it can make them a pretty juicy target. Especially because there is no free 5ft step in PF2.

5 points of damage per round vs mobility feels like a pretty fair and well balanced decision point. Especially if you are thinking about MC into any kind of caster and wanting to save some attribute points on STR.

[Deadmanwalking]

Unicore wrote:

5 points of damage per round vs mobility feels like a pretty fair and well balanced decision point. Especially if you are thinking about MC into any kind of caster and wanting to save some attribute points on STR.

Or just want high mental stats. I know I pretty much universally want Int and Cha 12+ just for roleplaying reasons, and make sure I can do that on all characters. The ability to plausibly do this on a Ranger might actually get me to play one (Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12 actually looks playable on a crossbow Ranger, for example).

[HidaOWin]

Also despite being uncommon its possible a ranger might get their mitts on an alchemical crossbow. On demand access to different elemental damage to hit opponents right in the weaknesses is very on brand for a ranger.

[Edge93]

HidaOWin wrote:

Also despite being uncommon its possible a ranger might get their mitts on an alchemical crossbow. On demand access to different elemental damage to hit opponents right in the weaknesses is very on brand for a ranger.

Alchemical crossbow?

[Edge93]

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Wouldn't a better title be "Are crossbows weaker than archery?" or something along those lines. PF2 forums has become the land of traps and math so tight that a Barbarian's AC becomes invalidated when he rages.

Ughhh, I the frick know, right? XP

[Castilliano]

Edge93 wrote:

HidaOWin wrote:

Also despite being uncommon its possible a ranger might get their mitts on an alchemical crossbow. On demand access to different elemental damage to hit opponents right in the weaknesses is very on brand for a ranger.

Alchemical crossbow?

It's in one of the adventures, and seems to be tilting the conversations re: Alchemists (as a patch) and crossbow wielders (as a "must").

Hopefully it's not Power Creep, Part I.

Could somebody post its stats?

[Thebazilly]

Castilliano wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

HidaOWin wrote:

Also despite being uncommon its possible a ranger might get their mitts on an alchemical crossbow. On demand access to different elemental damage to hit opponents right in the weaknesses is very on brand for a ranger.

Alchemical crossbow?

It's in one of the adventures, and seems to be tilting the conversations re: Alchemists (as a patch) and crossbow wielders (as a "must").

Hopefully it's not Power Creep, Part I.

Could somebody post its stats?

It's from Fall of Plaguestone.

AoN has the stats already.

[Deadmanwalking]

Edge93 wrote:

HidaOWin wrote:

Also despite being uncommon its possible a ranger might get their mitts on an alchemical crossbow. On demand access to different elemental damage to hit opponents right in the weaknesses is very on brand for a ranger.

Alchemical crossbow?

It's found here. Very neat little item, really.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Ah, well.

[Castilliano]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

HidaOWin wrote:

Also despite being uncommon its possible a ranger might get their mitts on an alchemical crossbow. On demand access to different elemental damage to hit opponents right in the weaknesses is very on brand for a ranger.

Alchemical crossbow?

It's found here. Very neat little item, really.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Ah, well.

I agree. It's a nice perk, but isn't delivering the bomb (and its special effects) as I'd feared. It may be a tiny power creep, but using your math, DMW, the alchemical crossbow doesn't overshadow bows.

And to exploit a weakness, you'd need to draw & load the right bomb after IDing the baddies, vs. Cantrips which you can blast in round 1. So it's only really strong if you know your enemy's weakness(es) ahead of time.

[Captain Morgan]

The nice thing about Running Reload is the tactial movement, getting clear lines of fire to remove cover bonuses or sneaking to get targets flat-footed. Or just avoiding damage to yourself. That stuff is pretty hard to factor into white room DPR calculations, but I'm pretty convinced it can make up for the gap with the bow, and it certainly makes for a more engaging play style than the PF1 five foot step machine gun turret longbow.

[Deadmanwalking]

Castilliano wrote:

I agree. It's a nice perk, but isn't delivering the bomb (and its special effects) as I'd feared. It may be a tiny power creep, but using your math, DMW, the alchemical crossbow doesn't overshadow bows.

Yeah, on rounds when it applies and you get to Hunter's Aim, it ups DPR to 20.7. On turns when you can't it makes for a DPR of 16.1. Which makes the action economy tricky.

And barring Alchemist Dedication, it does cost money to do, though as it's 1st level bombs that gets cheaper over time. The range reduction stays super relevant forever, though.

Castilliano wrote:

And to exploit a weakness, you'd need to draw & load the right bomb after IDing the baddies, vs. Cantrips which you can blast in round 1. So it's only really strong if you know your enemy's weakness(es) ahead of time.

You could also wait for someone else to use the action to ID, or get the Monster Hunter Feats (which eventually happen for free whenever you Hunt Prey).

[Edge93]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

HidaOWin wrote:

Also despite being uncommon its possible a ranger might get their mitts on an alchemical crossbow. On demand access to different elemental damage to hit opponents right in the weaknesses is very on brand for a ranger.

Alchemical crossbow?

It's found here. Very neat little item, really.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Ah, well.

Hmmm... Interesting. It's tempting to say the damage augment just makes it straight better, but honestly that range reduction is FAR from irrelevant. I've found, at least in the games I run, it's VERY easy to find yourself outside of 30' range. And if you are in 30 foot range, that means you're in range for whatever your foe is feeling, be it move and melee or most spells. Regular bows and crossbows keep you out of that.

I actually really like that, it feels like a respectable trade-off. Also I think a Ranger with this crossbow would find Running Reload coming into play much more often, given the range limitations. The ability to run off from that dangerous 30 foot range and reload as one action after shooting is pretty nice actually.

EDIT: Forgot, Hunt Prey lets you shoot at increment 2 safely, so they already get to stay at a safer range. That actually makes it a lot better for them.

[Sfyn]

Captain Morgan wrote:

The nice thing about Running Reload is the tactial movement, getting clear lines of fire to remove cover bonuses or sneaking to get targets flat-footed. Or just avoiding damage to yourself. That stuff is pretty hard to factor into white room DPR calculations, but I'm pretty convinced it can make up for the gap with the bow, and it certainly makes for a more engaging play style than the PF1 five foot step machine gun turret longbow.

I've seen people saying that you can use the Sneak action to get hidden (and get flat-footed bonuses) multiple times, but when I read the Sneak action what I understand is you only keep hidden from creatures you are already hidden from. What am I missing?

[Smugmug]

You could also grab Far Shot to double your range increments. It's another feat to make alchemical xbow usable though.

[Thebazilly]

Sfyn wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

The nice thing about Running Reload is the tactial movement, getting clear lines of fire to remove cover bonuses or sneaking to get targets flat-footed. Or just avoiding damage to yourself. That stuff is pretty hard to factor into white room DPR calculations, but I'm pretty convinced it can make up for the gap with the bow, and it certainly makes for a more engaging play style than the PF1 five foot step machine gun turret longbow.

I've seen people saying that you can use the Sneak action to get hidden (and get flat-footed bonuses) multiple times, but when I read the Sneak action what I understand is you only keep hidden from creatures you are already hidden from. What am I missing?

You have to use the Hide action before Sneaking. The Sneak action is used to move without being detected. The Hide action enters you into "stealth mode."

Edit: You could also use something like Invisibility to Sneak, as Invisibility automatically makes you Hidden.

[shroudb]

Sfyn wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

The nice thing about Running Reload is the tactial movement, getting clear lines of fire to remove cover bonuses or sneaking to get targets flat-footed. Or just avoiding damage to yourself. That stuff is pretty hard to factor into white room DPR calculations, but I'm pretty convinced it can make up for the gap with the bow, and it certainly makes for a more engaging play style than the PF1 five foot step machine gun turret longbow.

I've seen people saying that you can use the Sneak action to get hidden (and get flat-footed bonuses) multiple times, but when I read the Sneak action what I understand is you only keep hidden from creatures you are already hidden from. What am I missing?

sneak and hide are 2 separate actions.

"Hide" allows you to go from observed to hidden. You do NOT move from your space when hiding. As an example, you duck behind the rock in front of you. So now the opponent can't see you.

Now, even though the opponent can't see you, he KNOWS you are behind the rock, mainly because you haven't moved, you just ducked behind it.

This is the condition "hidden"

Now, "Sneak" is the action you take AFTER you are hidden, and it involves moving from the place you were, while hidden, and remaining hidden all the way

If you manage that, you become "Undetected". That is, the opponent now has no clue where you are.

If you fail, it means your opponent heard you. You still move, you remain "hidden" (so, they can't see you, but they know where you are)

If you crit fail, you basically trip over and become visible to all.

[Sfyn]

Thebazilly wrote:

Sfyn wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

The nice thing about Running Reload is the tactial movement, getting clear lines of fire to remove cover bonuses or sneaking to get targets flat-footed. Or just avoiding damage to yourself. That stuff is pretty hard to factor into white room DPR calculations, but I'm pretty convinced it can make up for the gap with the bow, and it certainly makes for a more engaging play style than the PF1 five foot step machine gun turret longbow.

I've seen people saying that you can use the Sneak action to get hidden (and get flat-footed bonuses) multiple times, but when I read the Sneak action what I understand is you only keep hidden from creatures you are already hidden from. What am I missing?

You have to use the Hide action before Sneaking. The Sneak action is used to move without being detected. The Hide action enters you into "stealth mode."

Edit: You could also use something like Invisibility to Sneak, as Invisibility automatically makes you Hidden.

So Running Reload doesn't help at all to get flat-footed bonuses, you need to use the Hide action like any other character. I guess hiding "for free" (since you are reloading every turn) would be too good.

shroudb wrote:

*hide & sneak* explanation

Understood, that's what I was getting myself from the rules. Thanks for the clarification.

[shroudb]

Sfyn wrote:

Thebazilly wrote:

Sfyn wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

The nice thing about Running Reload is the tactial movement, getting clear lines of fire to remove cover bonuses or sneaking to get targets flat-footed. Or just avoiding damage to yourself. That stuff is pretty hard to factor into white room DPR calculations, but I'm pretty convinced it can make up for the gap with the bow, and it certainly makes for a more engaging play style than the PF1 five foot step machine gun turret longbow.

I've seen people saying that you can use the Sneak action to get hidden (and get flat-footed bonuses) multiple times, but when I read the Sneak action what I understand is you only keep hidden from creatures you are already hidden from. What am I missing?

You have to use the Hide action before Sneaking. The Sneak action is used to move without being detected. The Hide action enters you into "stealth mode."

Edit: You could also use something like Invisibility to Sneak, as Invisibility automatically makes you Hidden.

So Running Reload doesn't help at all to get flat-footed bonuses, you need to use the Hide action like any other character. I guess hiding "for free" (since you are reloading every turn) would be too good.

shroudb wrote:

*hide & sneak* explanation

Understood, that's what I was getting myself from the rules. Thanks for the clarification.

running reload is still usable while sneaking.

so you can "Strike->hide->sneak to a new location while reloading"
next round you Strike from your new location, and repeat.

It does require to be several places where you can "take cover" to hide behind though as you go from place to place

[Sfyn]

shroudb wrote:

running reload is still usable while sneaking.

so you can "Strike->hide->sneak to a new location while reloading"
next round you Strike from your new location, and repeat.

It does require to be several places where you can "take cover" to hide behind though as you go from place to place

Yes, you can use Running Reload to move while hidden, but cannot use it to become hidden. The way Captain Morgan put it, I took as you could use Sneak to gain the hidden condition but that is not possible.

To gain flat-footed bonuses you have to be hidden and you become observed after Striking, so you need the Hide action to get the bonus. Running Reload only helps if you are already hidden.

Also, this is something that could be RAW vs RAI but Hide states you "cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak or Step" and Running Reload states "you Sneak, then Interact to reload". This Interact is not Hide/Step/Sneak and would make you observed making Running Reload pointless for Sneaking.

[shroudb]

Sfyn wrote:

shroudb wrote:

running reload is still usable while sneaking.

so you can "Strike->hide->sneak to a new location while reloading"
next round you Strike from your new location, and repeat.

It does require to be several places where you can "take cover" to hide behind though as you go from place to place

Yes, you can use Running Reload to move while hidden, but cannot use it to become hidden. The way Captain Morgan put it, I took as you could use Sneak to gain the hidden condition but that is not possible.

To gain flat-footed bonuses you have to be hidden and you become observed after Striking, so you need the Hide action to get the bonus. Running Reload only helps if you are already hidden.

Also, this is something that could be RAW vs RAI but Hide states you "cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak or Step" and Running Reload states "you Sneak, then Interact to reload". This Interact is not Hide/Step/Sneak and would make you observed making Running Reload pointless for Sneaking.

You still attack every turn while they are flat footed:

(you are hidden):
Strike (flat footed)->you become visible.
Hide-> you become hidden
Sneak/reload->you move to a new location and become undetected

new round:

Strike (flat footed)_> you become visible
Hide-> you become hidden
Sneak/reload->you move to a new location and become undetected

etc

As for interact breaking "hidden", i guess that's as clear a "specific>generic" as you can get.

[Sfyn]

shroudb wrote:

You still attack every turn while they are flat footed:

(you are hidden):
Strike (flat footed)->you become visible.
Hide-> you become hidden
Sneak/reload->you move to a new location and become undetected

new round:

Strike (flat footed)_> you become visible
Hide-> you become hidden
Sneak/reload->you move to a new location and become undetected

etc

As for interact breking "hidden", interact is after the Sneak, so you are already "Unobserved" at that point, not merely hidden. And that one doesn't break with interacts.

You could:

Interact
Hide
Strike

You don't risk rolling 2 Stealth checks and get Crossbow Ace bonus to boot (reload & strike on same turn). You don't end the turn hidden, which is a use for Sneak tho.

If you could use Running Reload to become hidden it would be 1 action cheaper and allow things like using Hunter's Aim. That was the point I wanted clarification.

IMO, it's really dumb you need to Strike on the same round for Crossbow Ace, feels like an unnecessary limitation.

[lordcirth]

Sfyn wrote:

IMO, it's really dumb you need to Strike on the same round for Crossbow Ace, feels like an unnecessary limitation.

You missed a word:

"You must make the attack before the end of your next turn or these benefits are lost."

[shroudb]

Sfyn wrote:

shroudb wrote:

You still attack every turn while they are flat footed:

(you are hidden):
Strike (flat footed)->you become visible.
Hide-> you become hidden
Sneak/reload->you move to a new location and become undetected

new round:

Strike (flat footed)_> you become visible
Hide-> you become hidden
Sneak/reload->you move to a new location and become undetected

etc

As for interact breking "hidden", interact is after the Sneak, so you are already "Unobserved" at that point, not merely hidden. And that one doesn't break with interacts.

You could:

Interact
Hide
Strike

You don't risk rolling 2 Stealth checks and get Crossbow Ace bonus to boot (reload & strike on same turn). You don't end the turn hidden, which is a use for Sneak tho.

If you could use Running Reload to become hidden it would be 1 action cheaper and allow things like using Hunter's Aim. That was the point I wanted clarification.

IMO, it's really dumb you need to Strike on the same round for Crossbow Ace, feels like an unnecessary limitation.

you don't miss the bonuses of Ace.

you can hit on the next turn and still get them.

And undetected>>>>hidden

with hidden, they always know, without a roll, exactly where you are and they can target you.

Also, failing the "sneak" roll still keeps you Hidden.

It's basically an extra roll for a very nice extra bonus, that doesn't actually cost you anything (since you would interact either way, and even failing the roll still leaves you exactly as before, hidden)

[Zwordsman]

Alch Xbow also requires surprisingly close range. its what 30ft increment?

So being able to move while targeting the element is rather useful given how close you'll be (60ft when using Hunt.)

I'd love if they went a bit Monster Hunter and made a modification you can pay for, for the Heavy Crossbow that acts as a shield (circ bonus) for AC. and you could "raise" it as one wanted.
would still be a lot of painful actions though.

[Sfyn]

lordcirth wrote:

Sfyn wrote:

IMO, it's really dumb you need to Strike on the same round for Crossbow Ace, feels like an unnecessary limitation.

You missed a word:

"You must make the attack before the end of your next turn or these benefits are lost."

shroudb wrote:

you don't miss the bonuses of Ace.

Holy ****, its true. Thanks for pointing it out.

shroudb wrote:

It's basically an extra roll for a very nice extra bonus, that doesn't actually cost you anything (since you would interact either way, and even failing the roll still leaves you exactly as before, hidden)

Would you? Interact removes hidden by RAW. RAI I believe I'd follow your take.

[shroudb]

Sfyn wrote:

lordcirth wrote:

Sfyn wrote:

IMO, it's really dumb you need to Strike on the same round for Crossbow Ace, feels like an unnecessary limitation.

You missed a word:

"You must make the attack before the end of your next turn or these benefits are lost."

shroudb wrote:

you don't miss the bonuses of Ace.

Holy ****, its true. Thanks for pointing it out.

shroudb wrote:

It's basically an extra roll for a very nice extra bonus, that doesn't actually cost you anything (since you would interact either way, and even failing the roll still leaves you exactly as before, hidden)

Would you? Interact removes hidden by RAW. RAI I believe I'd follow your take.

again, when you have an ability that says "you Sneak and do x" it obviously is a specific > generic.

It isn't even inferred from the move traits, "Sneak" as an option for running reload is directly called out.

So I expect that RAW still is "you can sneak and reload" and NOT "you can stride half spead and reload" that would be the case if it autobroke sneak.

[kaid]

Zwordsman wrote:

Alch Xbow also requires surprisingly close range. its what 30ft increment?

So being able to move while targeting the element is rather useful given how close you'll be (60ft when using Hunt.)

I'd love if they went a bit Monster Hunter and made a modification you can pay for, for the Heavy Crossbow that acts as a shield (circ bonus) for AC. and you could "raise" it as one wanted.
would still be a lot of painful actions though.

This is why it is pretty much best in the hands of a ranger or somebody with ranger multiclass due to hunt the prey making it so you can hit out to range increment 2 without penalties. Then if you add far shot onto that you are set with a pretty solid range and the plus side it does not care what level bombs you are putting into it so even a basic level of alchemy bomb is fine to give you the extra damage boost.

[Edge93]

shroudb wrote:

Sfyn wrote:

lordcirth wrote:

Sfyn wrote:

IMO, it's really dumb you need to Strike on the same round for Crossbow Ace, feels like an unnecessary limitation.

You missed a word:

"You must make the attack before the end of your next turn or these benefits are lost."

shroudb wrote:

you don't miss the bonuses of Ace.

Holy ****, its true. Thanks for pointing it out.

shroudb wrote:

It's basically an extra roll for a very nice extra bonus, that doesn't actually cost you anything (since you would interact either way, and even failing the roll still leaves you exactly as before, hidden)

Would you? Interact removes hidden by RAW. RAI I believe I'd follow your take.

again, when you have an ability that says "you Sneak and do x" it obviously is a specific > generic.

It isn't even inferred from the move traits, "Sneak" as an option for running reload is directly called out.

So I expect that RAW still is "you can sneak and reload" and NOT "you can stride half spead and reload" that would be the case if it autobroke sneak.

Also, the quoted bit of the rules where it says you're revealed if you do anything except x, y, or z was from Hide, not Sneak, right? Since you Sneak before you Reload isn't the rule on Hide irrelevant, even without considering the clear specific vs. general note?

[shroudb]

sneak has the same, but with a clause that you remain unnoticed if the other one can't physically see you

[Captain Morgan]

Huh, I genuinely thought you could Sneak without Hiding first. My bad folks. Although, if you're completely out of sight from some sort of terrain, wouldn't that make you unobserved anyway? If you're completely behind a wall or something. That at least seems like it could be a thing for heavy crossbows. Stride out of line of sight, sneak back into it, fire, repeat?

If you're feeling bold and don't fear AoO, you could also use that stride to get into a flank. While flanking requires you to be threatening an enemy in melee, nothing indicates the flat-footed condition only applies to melee attacks. You still threaten someone holding a crossbow as long as you have a foot you can kick them in the goodberries with.

[shroudb]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Huh, I genuinely thought you could Sneak without Hiding first. My bad folks. Although, if you're completely out of sight from some sort of terrain, wouldn't that make you unobserved anyway? If you're completely behind a wall or something. That at least seems like it could be a thing for heavy crossbows. Stride out of line of sight, sneak back into it, fire, repeat?

If you're feeling bold and don't fear AoO, you could also use that stride to get into a flank. While flanking requires you to be threatening an enemy in melee, nothing indicates the flat-footed condition only applies to melee attacks. You still threaten someone holding a crossbow as long as you have a foot you can kick them in the goodberries with.

walking behind a tall wall completely is simply breaking line of sight. It's mechanically different than hiding/sneaking in their application, while in this particular case they behave the same.

To put it into perspective:

You are in a large forest with trees thick enough to hide behind.

Anyone can walk behind a tree and break line of sight.

But one can first hide, and then sneak from one tree to another (as long as he finishes his move behind a tree) and he will remain unnoticed.

But you CAN'T simply walk behind a tree and then Sneak towards another tree. (presumably, things like your shadow, an edge of you, and etc, is visible enough for others to keep track of where you are)

[Zwordsman]

Huh its too bad you can't drop as a free action behind cover and then stealth crawl into stealth.
Still have to do the hide action huh?

I wonder how goblin stealth feats and halfling stealth feats work with these. I don't know what those work yet.

000000000000000000
As a side note. Was the "familiar loading for you' thing ever covered?
if not. an Alchemist with a familiar and a heavy xbow might be amusing to dip into Ranger. That could be a heavy one shot to suppliment bomb usage with a familiar aiding you.

but I know nothing of familiar yet.

[Captain Morgan]

The issue with switching between the crossbow and the bombs would be shifting your grip. Normally loading a crossbow can be part of the same action to grip it in two hands again. But if you throw a bomb and command your familiar to reload the crossbow, you still have to use your last action to grip it in two hands.

Still, I think there's potential with the familiar and the heavy crossbow ranger. Let's you use stuff like hunter's aim with it. Actually, could you use the familiar to load the normal crossbow twice in one turn?

[Abyssiensis]

The Camouflage feat allows the Ranger to solve this problem in Natural terrain. It lets them sneak even when observed.

[Zwordsman]

Near as I can t ell from the "reload" section and the "interact" section...

There isn't a reason a familiar couldn't use its two actions to reaload a heavy xbow. Not that I've found anyway.

So a Ranger or Alchemist with a familiar + HXB might work decently enough. If one was an alch they probably would want to focus mostly on handing out their goodies to allies, then staying at decent range plinking and or poisoning (and retriving missed shots after)

[shroudb]

Zwordsman wrote:

Near as I can t ell from the "reload" section and the "interact" section...

There isn't a reason a familiar couldn't use its two actions to reaload a heavy xbow. Not that I've found anyway.

So a Ranger or Alchemist with a familiar + HXB might work decently enough. If one was an alch they probably would want to focus mostly on handing out their goodies to allies, then staying at decent range plinking and or poisoning (and retriving missed shots after)

how would that work though?

from what i can tell, you need to wield a weapon to reload it since Interact only works on things on hand, stored, or unattended unless told otherwise.

So, free action drop crossbow, give 1 action to the familiar, it spends the 2 actions to reload and give it back to you.

It saves you nothing action economy wise, since the one action you just spent to "reload give back" could have simply been the action to reload.

[Xenocrat]

Yeah, I think the only familiar action economy booster that works is drawing potions/elixirs and feeding them to you, everything else requires extra interact actions to take/give things between the master and the familiar.

[Agent Black]

shroudb wrote:

how would that work though?

from what i can tell, you need to wield a weapon to reload it since Interact only works on things on hand, stored, or unattended unless told otherwise.

So, free action drop crossbow, give 1 action to the familiar, it spends the 2 actions to reload and give it back to you.

It saves you nothing action economy wise, since the one action you just spent to "reload give back" could have simply been the action to reload.

What if your familiar was a monkey or something, perched on your shoulder? You spend 1 action to command it (while still holding the crossbow), the familiar uses both actions to reload the heavy crossbow, and when it's finished, the crossbow is still in your hands, ready to fire.

[shroudb]

AgentBlack wrote:

shroudb wrote:

how would that work though?

from what i can tell, you need to wield a weapon to reload it since Interact only works on things on hand, stored, or unattended unless told otherwise.

So, free action drop crossbow, give 1 action to the familiar, it spends the 2 actions to reload and give it back to you.

It saves you nothing action economy wise, since the one action you just spent to "reload give back" could have simply been the action to reload.

What if your familiar was a monkey or something, perched on your shoulder? You spend 1 action to command it (while still holding the crossbow), the familiar uses both actions to reload the heavy crossbow, and when it's finished, the crossbow is still in your hands, ready to fire.

Interact says that the item you interact with needs to be either stored or unattended.

if the crossbow is in your hands, it's neither, regardless where the monkey is perched.

With GM discretion, this might work, but RAW doesn't support that.