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Liberty's Edge

Its been awhile since Ive made pathfinder characters. Having some small troubles considering my options. Looking for any advice you all might choose to share.

Race = Dwarf (Cant change it, part of the campaign)
15 point buy
Book options are Core, APG, Ultimate Combat/Magic are all good, other books are on case by case basis.

Party make up is a Human Paladin, Human Urban Ranger, Dwarf Wizard(brother) and my Dwarf. Originally slated to come in as a shielded fighter but looking at options of changing to Oracle or Cleric to boost the divine capabilities of the party.

Adventure path is Mummy's Mask. Im ok with either option, just hoping to read some advice I havent considered yet.

Thanks in advance

Liberty's Edge

Hi, I am a long time roleplayer new to Pensacola. Unfortunately, I had to leave 2 great gaming groups I met with weekly due to job relocation. I play and dm, and like roleplay just as much as I like combat. If anyone knows a good gaming group that plays regularly on a Mon, Tue, Wed, or Thu and they are looking for another player, please let me know. Due to job I can not play on weekends. Mon and Tue are best days.

I look forward to meeting some new gamers.


Liberty's Edge

Have you thought about oracle? Needing to fit melee combatant, party face, and crafter, I would check out the battle or metal oracle.

Dwarf Battle or Metal Oracle (Wolfscarred Face Curse)
Str 17+1
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 7
Cha 16

I think that would be a great option to perform the tasks you want.

But to your topic at hand, I think the build you have for the dwarf fighter will be good for the roles you have planned except for party face. Dwarf with cha 5 would be utter fail at party face.

If you look into the oracle, if you want to know other thoughts on it I'll be happy to type more.

Liberty's Edge

In my Shattered Star campaign we have 2 characters leaving the group. One is a dark tapestry oracle and the other is a sandman bard. I need to come up with a build that can essentially replace the main roles both were filling. The roles I need to be able to do are...

disable device
knowledge, specifically planes and local but others wouldnt hurt
emergency healing (most healing in grp is done out of combat)

At the moment I am considering the Seeker Archetype for Oracle or the Archeologist archetype for bard. I would like to hear any other advice on options you may have.

Thanks in advance.

Liberty's Edge

SlimJamama wrote:

In my homebrew the party stumbled upon a treasure map to a dwarven engineer's treasure vault. This vault is his best and finest work and something his decendants can be proud of. Now it needs to be infested with traps. Non-magical traps as this dwarf was an engineer not a wizard. Aside from the ones in the book anyone got ideas?

Ive just recently played in a campaign where the objective was to gain a dwarven relic from a lost temple of Torag and return it to the dwarves of High Helm. The GM made it very difficult in the trap department. I'll toss out ideas and some of the ones we faced.

Require 2 keys to enter a vault door which need to be turned simultaneously. How the party gets the keys is up to you.

Have several rooms or corridors within the 'vault', not just a single door to a treasure room. Each room or corridor can have a theme, obviously dwarven, and/or purpose.

Room 25ft wide with 10ft statues lining the walls leaving a 5ft path down the middle of the room. The party will immediately think the statues move or are trapped. Do not trap the 1st two statues. Since the trap maker is an engineer make the trap activate via pressure plate. When the pc steps into the square the 2nd set of statues swings the weapons they are holding.

Every door in the vault should be locked and trapped. Of course they should be able to be bypassed if they have the proper means, such as the engineers key ring or something. However, Id make sure they never got those keys and had to 'encounter' the traps.

In a corridor with statues standing in recessed alcoves have another pressure plate trap resulting in two portcullises dropping in front of and behind the PC. The statues then activate slashing into the square the pc is trapped in. After the slashing is over the floor falls out revealing a 30ft pit. 1 round later the floor and the portcullis resets.

In a larger room, say 40x40, have a statue in each corner. I know what your thinking, statues again? No they arent the trap this time. When the lock on the door leaving the room is tampered with it triggers tiny holes in the ceiling and floor to open and begin releasing gas into the room. The gas is the equivalent of a cloudkill effect. Both doors in the room, the one entered through and the one exiting further into the vault should be locked trapping the PCs in the room. The gas fills the room in 3-4 rounds giving the rogue that amount of time to get the door open. The gas stops and is blown out of the room once the door is open.

Put a fake treasure room before the actual treasure room. In the fake treasure room have a great mural or statue of the engineer performing a task. Have a fair amount of gold and mundane items, perhaps enchanted, in this room giving it the appearance of being the engineers treasure. However have a secret door exiting this room, whether below the statue, behind a tapestry, or hidden within the mural that leads to the actual treasure.

In one room have the key required be an item acquired from a previous room. Perhaps a weapon from a statue in room 1 is required to be placed in the hands of a statue in room 3 to unlock the door without tampering with the lock, thus bypassing the gas problem.

For a good one your PC's will love and get a little nostalgic over, think Indiana Jones. In one long corridor the party begins descending at slight angle. Not steep like stairs. Have a pressure plate or in the center of the corridor trigger a ball to fall from the roof of the beginning of the corridor and begin rolling toward the PC's. Each round it gains speed and thus more damage it potentially deals to the PC's it hits. Also the more speed it gains the harder it is to stop it. It should take 4+ rounds for the ball to reach the end of the corridor thus giving the rogue plenty of time to successfully open the door at the end of the hall and save the party from damage.

I have more, but I think ive typed enough. This is already a wall of text. Enjoy and I hope you like the ideas.

Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:
You know, it is perfectly acceptable to play a cleric without the Travel domain. It's not like the class depends on it in order to be viable.

Thats a very true statement, though I personally have never played one with the Travel domain. When I play clerics I tend to lean toward battle clerics. Never played a spell slinger cleric and I just want to try it out with the Travel domain.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks for the replies.

Donagar, I can see a dwarf doing exactly as you say. Personally my plan as of now is to never get hit. I want to ranged casting a spell(primary choice) or ranged assisting the party in some way other than cheer leading. Thus the question about some way to bypass the -4 penalty firing into melee without having to take the Point Blank shot feat tax.

mplin I may have to do what you suggest and just suck it up not having precise shot and figure out a different path. However, as you also mentioned the feat will also help with rays and such. So im still looking.

Gourry, great suggestion that I hadnt thought out but id like to avoid the whole LG paladin goodness thing and would prefer to keep full caster progression in cleric.

RainyDayNinja wrote:
You could be a cleric of Erastil for the longbow proficiency, allowing you to be a human for the extra feat. And you could use the Separatist archetype to still get the Travel domain.

Rainy I thought that was the suggestion of the century right there. However, I checked out Separatist archetype and it has to give up proficiency in the deities favored weapon.

Another option close to what you suggest is a Human Cleric of the Empyreal Lord Sinashakti. Sinashakti's favored weapon is the short bow and the emp lord utilizes the Travel domain making him an acceptable alternative to Desna. My only concern there is a back story and roleplay concept.

Liberty's Edge

Im going to be running in a campaign set in Varisia and I will most likely be the cleric of the group. My overall desire is a cleric of Desna utilizing the Travel and Liberation domains. He will essentially be a caster cleric, not combat.

I would like something for the cleric to do during rounds he does not need to cast. My preference is ranged combat however, I can not find an efficient way to gain Precise Shot. Does anyone know a method for a cleric to gain Precise Shot without taking Point Blank Shot or any other suggestions would be appreciated as well. I really do not want to wait until lvl 5 to get into taking more caster/cleric-centric feats.

Current creation and stats...
Elf - Choosing Elf for free longbow proficiency.
Diety - Desna (Could choose a different god but I really want the travel domain.)
Domains - Travel and Liberation

Fairly generous stat options but not wildly OP.

Thank you in advance.

Liberty's Edge

At times I have seen similar results myself. Part of the reason may be out of your control. Ive seen parties buff and prep for 'boss' fights so well the boss went down in a few rounds. On the other hand Ive seen parties under estimate the 'trash' fights.

Liberty's Edge

My only ugh characters really revolve around characters who are typically useless. Characters who, because of the player behind them, could be fully optimised on paper and still be the worst in the group.

Aside from that, our group has a good group of people who in each campaign tends to choose something different.

For myself, im the guy that, prior to Pathfinder and Archetypes, would do my best to build a crazy theme out of existing classes. Not always being successful at it, I can definitely say that.

One of my latest experiments is a trying to create a Prince of Persia...honorable, acrobatic, crafty, and has a silver tongue. Im using Monk and Ninja.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:
LOL. Of course it needs to state that. You don't want any dead people walking around do you. :)

Touche...but then in most of those cases we'd just kill them again anyway.

Liberty's Edge

I dont see this as a big deal. The paralyzed creature is still at a huge disadvantage even if they can still cast SLA's or still/silent spells with no components. For instance, the casting of an SLA requires a concentration check if threatened. The paralyzed creature will not be able to perform a defensive casting therefore that concentration check should be pretty difficult. Thats just one of the obvious things to contend with. Again, I dont see it as a big deal.

Regarding the Dead condition not stating that a character can take no actions? Come on...really? Does the Dead condition really need to state that?

Liberty's Edge

To make an enchanter and party face Id second Sorcerer.

Serpentine Sorcerer can enchant many more types of creatures than a normal enchanter. Add in Threnodic Spell to the Serpentine Sorcerer and the list grows to include undead as well.

Could also go Human Crossblooded Fey/Serpentine and eventually add in threnodic spell as well. I mention human b/c as crossblooded you'll want their favored class bonus. But adding in Fey to the mix will give a +2 to do the DC of all compulsion spells.

So considering a lvl 1 Crossblooded Fey/Serpent Sorcerer with a 20 cha the DC for sleep becomes 18 without feats. The Sleep would work on humanoids, monstrous humanoids, animals, and magical beasts. Add in Spell Focus Enchantment and your compulsion spells DC for a lvl 1 spell is 19 while your charm spells DC is 17.

Just a thought. Of course if you are sold on wizard enchanter then I'll second the above suggestions on stats, feats, and manipulator school.

Liberty's Edge

Crane, why not just view the spell and the game mechanics as they are meant to be viewed?

Mirror Image puts extra bodies in the square with the caster. Not other squares because then you would also have to choose which square you want to swing in and possibly miss the caster entirely with no chance of hitting him. So there we establish that all the images are in the same 5 ft square.

A fighter next to said caster wants to hit the caster who has multiple images of himself in the same 5 ft square. The fighter doesnt know which one is the real one so he makes a large arc through the square. His thought process is as you say, 'I'll swing through the whole area and Im bound to hit something if not all of them...'

Now lets add mechanics...the fighter swings vs the caster AC. There are a few possible outcomes.

The fighter swings his sword through the square and rolls less than 5 below the caster AC mechanically resulting in a complete miss. Thematically you can assume the caster and his images dodged your sword. Why? Because the images are duplicates of the real person acting as he acts so when he dodges they also dodge. Sorry, your arcing swing didnt work b/c the caster happens to have some dexterity.

Now lets assume the fighter swings and gets a near miss, within 5 of the caster AC. This mechanically assumes the caster did not dodge your arcing swing fast enough and you swiped through the lead or trail image of his spell thus letting you know that its a fake.

On to you swinging your wide arc through the 5 ft square. Now perhaps you have a decent guess of which one if the real one or maybe you are focused a bit more on the lead image. You hit the caster AC easily b/c he is just a slow non martial dimwit. With this swing you were definitely fast enough and on target to score a good hit on something in the square. Mechanically determine if it was the real caster or a figment with a dice roll. If it was the real caster you hear a grunt or grimace of pain and your sword trails a bit of blood as it completes its arc. If it was an image your sword passes through the image with no sounds but the other images in the square were unharmed. This thematically is as I said, you chose an image to focus on and hit it but guessed wrong or you swung well enough to hit the lead or trail image but not fast enough to hit them all.

Sorry that the post is a little long. But really...just saying you can swing a sword in a 5ft arc doesnt prove you can hit anything in that square, specially if the thing or things are actively trying to avoid being hit.

Liberty's Edge

I havent built it completely but would you consider ranged? A halfling ranger or fighter specializing in ranged combat with a halfling sling staff could definitely deal good damage.

Liberty's Edge

I agree that a class build such as...

Sorc 1/(Melee Class) 4/DD 8 or 10

does gain more benefit from the melee aspects of the DD. However, Id like to just add that a...

Crossblooded Draconic/Orc 5/DD 8 or 10

Can have some significant strength boosts to assist in its melee. Another fun build could be...

Barbarian 2/Cross Draconic/Orc 3/DD 8 or 10

This build is gaining str boosts from Orc bloodline, DD ability boosts, and rage. Cha doesnt need to be high enough to land spells with DCs for Sorcerer/DD. The character can limit spell selection to buffs or control spells without saves. The same concept that many EK builds or low point buy Wildshape druids use.

Liberty's Edge

Luther wrote:

I'm going to leave this here.

Sneaking Precision

You can find it in Ultimate Combat on page 120.

The wording of this feat implies that a rogue can normally make more than one sneak attack during his turn.

I believe this may set a precedent.

I am not here to argue, simply attempting to contribute.

Honestly, the nail was put in the coffin a long time ago. Rogues NEED multiple SA to even keep up. But the wording of this feat certainly drives the nail in a bit deeper concerning the developer intent.

Liberty's Edge

The 1st thing I would say is this...

Treantmonks guide to Wizards

Then I would add my own suggestion of looking into Gnome Conjurer with the Teleportation Subschool.

*Edit* Just want to add, I know according to the guide the gnome isnt optimal due to not getting a +2 int. However, the theme is nice and having the bonus to illusions helps alot of great spells. That said, Elf Conjurer with teleportation subschool would be more optimal.

Liberty's Edge

I second Draconic Sorcerer, leading into Dragon Disciple. If the player wants more spell casting tell him stick with sorcerer the whole way. If he was intending to be more melee then add in another class.

Human Sorcerer(Draconic) 1/Samurai 4/Dragon Disciple 10 could really be roleplayed up as an eastern half dragon and still not blow away the other party members in power level.

If your player doesnt like the Samurai 4 then use any other full bab class and add in some eastern theme. Could use some some 3/4 bab classes as well and net you a higher bab than straight sorcerer.

Charismatic Spellcaster with Dragon flavor? Sorc 5/DD10
Noble gold? Sorc 1/Paladin 4/DD10
Raging red? Sorc 1/Barbarian4/DD10
Any Theme? Sorc 1/Fighter4/DD10
Eastern Martial Artist? Sorc 1/Flowing Monk 4/DD10
Sneaky Dragon? Sorc 1/Ninja 4/DD10

Just tossing out a few ideas. Dragon Disciple is a really good prestige class to add in some half dragon flavor to a PC without breaking the campaign or balance between players with the actual template.

Liberty's Edge

Honestly for powerhouse sorcerer I wouldnt multi class. One suggestion, if you ever want to do crossblooded, I really recommend Human for favored class bonus.

Spell Powerhouse - Human Arcane (potentially Sage for different flavor)
Damage - Human Crossblooded Draconic/Elemental
Enchanter - (race) Fey(Sylvan) or Human Cross Fey/Serpentine
Summoner - Abyssal or Celestial (which flavor you want?)

Also many other options become available when perusing bloodline arcana/powers. Just depends on your campaign and character theme.

Liberty's Edge

voska66 wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
voska66 wrote:
You should look at some of the rogues around the site then -- specifically the DPR threads -- two weapon fighting for a rogue is a trap.
Now I'm not saying I'm right here I'm just curious why you think it's trap?

Ive just recently went through the process of building a ninja. I agree with Abraham in that TWF is a trap.

TWF needs...(Build was designed around dual wakizashi)
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus

at a minimum to be effective. This also means his str was too low to have any decent damage when not getting SA.

Str build needs...(Build designed around using Katana 2handed)
Weapon Focus
Power Attack

Honestly I could say the str build only needs power attack but I found the dpr to increase significantly with weapon focus added. Also, on rounds the character cant SA his damage is still respectable, certainly not out damaging the barbarian he plays with but respectable.

So the str build costs 2 feats less and does more static damage with higher +hit. Also, his dex is still 14, good enough so that his dex based skills arent useless.

Liberty's Edge

Honestly if I had your concerns about the Fey/Sylvan Bloodline Id just have a talk with my DM. Explain to him my character concept and how I want to tie the bloodline into it. Then ask him if you can forgo taking the pet at Sylvan one but instead keep laughing touch.

However, I can tell you Im currently playing a Halfling Fey Sorcerer. My least used ability is Laughing Touch. Im never in melee range unless I did something wrong.

The pet, even at minus 3, could be played up fairly well. Have you considered using your medium insect pet as a mount? Not for mounted combat but for travel and possibly a last line of defense for you. Could be pretty cool seeing a gnome riding a giant spider and spewing forth insect swarms etc. Of course using an insect pet as a mount would be a DM question as well.

Liberty's Edge

gnomewizard wrote:
What about Fey/Sylvan & Verdant Crossblooded Sorcerer. Pretty green, and pretty fey... Thoughts?

Only way I would recommend crossblooded is if you chose human as class and used the alternate favored class option of a bonus spell.

Liberty's Edge

gnomewizard wrote:
I want to make a pc with an insect/fey theme that cast spells. So you know summoning swarm, web etc... I have kind of chosen three classes (I can use all paizo classes). Summoner, sorcerer sylvan bloodline & druid. Help me compare and cobtrast to get my gimmick, but make the pc survivable and fun.

Gnome Fey/Sylvan Sorcerer can start with high cha and good con/dex. With such a good con and a pet you may not need toughness however it would still be a great 1st lvl feat. Beyond that, smart spell selection will be your survivability.

Gnome Druid is probably the most survivable, as others have said, due to better pet and 2 good saves with a higher will save.

I think for me it would come to down to spell selection between the 2. I havent looked myself, but if I were you I would review the spells of each class to see which one helped the insect theme more.

Liberty's Edge

Erik Mona wrote:

Any suggestions for a mega-dungeon product?

I like the idea of hollow mountain being fleshed out. Seems like a great place with multiple hooks to go there.

Liberty's Edge

CrackedOzy wrote:

So I got talked into running a 14th level game, but I'm at a loss to come up with a story. The plan was to use Golarion, but I'm not married to the setting if someone has another idea.

Here are the PCs:

- Sorcerer 14
- Barbarian 14
- TBD (suggestions welcome)

Pick up the book Dungeons of Golarion. Great ideas for mega dungeons just gotta add a plot hook. Hollow mountain could be great. Send the PCs into the castle of night to retrieve a lost artifact. Reasons to get the lost artifact could be...

to heal the world wound(stolen from Abraham)
stop the release of an arch devil or great being upon the world
kill a minor evil demi-god that is plotting destruction upon the world

Without knowing the backgrounds as a poster above has stated its hard to toss out ideas.

Liberty's Edge

This thread really is astonishing.

On Topic, I agree with how JJ concerning how extracts and infusions work.

Off topic, I think Dennis is absolutely correct about communication. Zark there is nothing wrong with 'what' you said...everything is wrong with 'how' you said it.

Liberty's Edge

I wouldnt call myself str obsessed. However I have been building sample portfolios in Hero Lab using both dex and str builds and what I have found is the 2 handed str build with power attack usually out damages the dex builds. They have a higher attack bonus and more static damage for when SA isnt possible. Dex builds replaces those 2 bonuses with more attacks but again, at the cost of +hit.

I wasnt thinking originally about multi classing with monk but after looking into it I do like Mike Schneider's suggestion. Aside from the bonus feat and cool redirection ability at lvl 1 flowing monk just adding the monk class essentially gives me TWF for free as well. As a flowing monk 2/Ninja X with a katana str build I'll be able to...

Flurry at d6+SA = TWF with short swords. Also, I can choose to flurry as a full round even while holding my katana in 1 hand.
2hand katana = Better static damage.
Flurry of Stars = SA from concealment and at range. Stars also gets bonus damage from the str build. Albeit the stars will have lower +hit than dex build.
Bonus added - Improved Trip and Evasion :)

So essentially Im looking that build potentially giving me more options to begin with and a higher damage potential over all.

Also, again thank you to everyone who is posting and helping. I still havent completely decided on the route I'll take, :(. Im trying to fit the theme of the campaign and the groups play style into the character. The group as a whole has a more of role play focus and what fits thematically rather than nit picking optimization. But I try to optimize :).

Liberty's Edge

While playing with some builds in Hero Lab. I noticed that when I add the second class with a ki pool, ie add monk to ninja or ninja to monk, I can choose which stat, cha or wis, increases my ki pool. I read under the ninja entry that this is allowed but not the monk.

If this is allowed this would allow me to use wis as the ki pool generator netting me higher will saves and allowing me to dump cha. So stats could look something like this...

17(+2 racial)

This would slow progress on UMD and my character being the face but I wasnt intending to be the main face of the party anyway.

Liberty's Edge

Mike Schneider wrote:
Good Stuff

So what do you think of this to start.

Human Flowing Monk 2/Ninja X (Tian) - Favored Class +1Hp
Str - 16(+2 racial)(Boosting str with levels)
Dex - 14
Con - 12
Int - 8
Wis - 10
Cha - 14

Flowing Monk
1 - Toughness / Imp Initiative / Imp Trip(Monk Bonus)
2 - *Evasion
3 - Weapon Focus (katana)
4 - *Vanishing Trick
5 - Power Attack
6 - *Pressure Points
7 - Furious Focus
8 - *Acrobatics Master

Skills focusing on Stealth, Acrobatics, Perception, Disable Device, and UMD.

Adding the monk levels I reviewed the styles and none of them peaked my interest for this character, or either the stats above didnt meet the prereqs. Am I missing anything?

Liberty's Edge

Thank you for the replies. I am definitely looking more toward a str build than a dex build, though I havent counted dex build out yet.

For race, I need to stick to human to stick with the concept of being Ameiko's younger brother. Concerning multi classing I definitely see the reasons/bonuses for using the levels of monk however for now I would like to try to make it full ninja. However, Im not saying that I wont multi class...its still on the table. Im currently reviewing the multi class options.

His party role will be trapfinding/disabling and damage dealer and I'll be assisting with party face. So pretty much a bit of everything. This is what Im thinking so far...

Human Ninja (Tian) - Favored Class +1Hp
Str - 16(+2 racial)(Boosting str with levels)
Dex - 14
Con - 12
Int - 8
Wis - 10
Cha - 14

1 Toughness and Improved Initiative
3 Power Attack
5 Furious Focus or Weapon Focus(Katana)

2 Vanishing Trick
4 Acrobatics Master
6 Pressure Points

*edit* Skills will include acrobatics, UMD, diplomacy, perception, stealth, and disable device for sure.

Other party members are -
2 rangers - 1 ranged and 1 melee
1 rage prophet mostly barbarian with multi battle oracle
1 mystic theurge - starting cleric, aiming for battlefield control

As far as I know now, thats what others are thinking of playing.

Liberty's Edge

For dex build I was thinking...
10,17(+2 racial),14,10,10,14
Dual wield Wakizashi

Potential str build, though Im not fond of how low the con has to be...
16(+2 racial),14,12,8,10,14
Using a Katana 2 handed

Liberty's Edge

I'll be starting a Jade Regent campaign soon and im looking for some advice on building a ninja. Stats are made as follows...

All stats start at 10. Then we have 13 point to place where we want them. We can lower stats to increase others ie. 2 points down will give us 1 point up. No stat can be higher than 16 before racial modifier thus making us capped at 18 after racial.

The base concept is Human Ninja of Tian descent with the Younger Sibling(Ameiko) trait. Beyond that I am open to dex or str builds. One note, the DM will most likely allow me to trade poison use for trapfinding.

Id love to know what some of you can come up with.

Thanks in advance.

Liberty's Edge

cobalt123 wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:


Your play overestimates paizo's (or any grou of mortal's) ability to maintain consistency in as many stat blocks as are present in the bestiary. He is over thinking it, there is no mechanical difference here, just a grammatical/formatting difference. Secondary attacks are listed as such in stat blocks. In this case they are not, so they aren't secondary attacks they are primary. comma or 'and' dont make a difference.

You summed this particular player up in a nutshell.

One thing to add to help your player out. Within the stat blocks in the bestiary look for the word OR.

The quickest stat block I found to demonstrate this to your player was the Demon, babau. Page 57 of Bestiary 1.

Melee 2 claws +12 (1d6+5), bite +12 (1d6+5) or longspear +12/+7 (1d8+7/x3), bite +7 (1d6+2)

That means he can do 2 claws AND bite at +12...OR...he can attack with his longspear at +12/+7 AND bite at +7.

In the second set which includes the longspear, his bite is at a minus 5 b/c it is considered a secondary attack while he is attacking with a martial weapon. Yet both claws and bite are primary if no martial weapon is used.

Liberty's Edge

Congratulations you are playing the rogue to his strengths. Thats what a lot of people on these forums are saying. However, I know for certain you wouldn't dare boast being able to out damage a ranger if your SA was reduced to 1 per round.

That's the crux of the problem. There are people who are scared of the d6 without realizing that a static bonus is generally much better.

Liberty's Edge

Sadly 3.5L isnt the only ones that think SA on all attacks that qualify is OP. My gaming buddies also think this way. Ive told them the numbers, even used hero lab to generate sample lvl 10 fighters, barbarians, paladins, rangers, and rogues to demonstrate the inequality and they still hold to their house rule. This even when they see a barbarian in play with an extreme + to damage while buffed and raging.

Granted their house rule isnt as bad as only 1 SA per round. They allow 1 SA per iterative attack from BAB, but not from twf, haste, etc. Meaning a lvl 8 rogue can SA 2 times per round and a lvl 15 rogue can SA 3 times.

However, I have still told them that I respectfully decline to play a rogue at their table. The funny thing is, the rogue is the least played class at the table in general. Although we do have a rogue in our current campaign. He is not much of a combatant though, go figure.

Liberty's Edge


But on a serious note. Id like to join the club of "I think that both classes bring something good and fun to the table." Obviously they both play differently and have different strengths so there will be people who choose to debate which is better. But really, if you are having fun and contributing to the party, does it matter which you play?

I am currently enjoying my halfling Fey sorcerer. Former slave who learned he could make his slavers obey him instead. Really cool guy, just dont command him to do something.

Prior to that I played a gnome conjurer who had a fancy for history and pranks. He was invited to leave a few places when he started using Sepia Snake Sigil as one his chosen pranks. There was also the time he gave the local constable a thank you letter, which also summoned a minor devil, just to see the look on the constables face.

Liberty's Edge

I agree with the statement of, if they dont want to role play they wont.

Im currently playing in 2 games atm. In one of them, where I play a halfling fey sorcerer, we just had a good role play event. There are 7 PCs in this game. The game started just a few weeks ago by throwing all 7 into a bad situation without knowing each other. Not going to go into detail of course but suffice to say all 7 survived. In the next session the majority of the players and the DM allowed a small round table event in game.

My character, invited the others to have a drink since we had all survived something dangerous together. Now, none of us know the rest of the others back stories. So the 'have a drink' at the local tavern turned into an hour long banter where the PCs where chatting as if we were our characters. The DM joined in as the serving wench, bartender, random people in the tavern, etc. It was a blast! So our characters got to know each other in game and plan for their next event at the same time.

I say it was a blast, cause I thought it really was. However, back to my 1st line. There were 2 of us at the table whom I could tell were really itching to just get this meet and greet over with so they could slay something.

So there you go, if they dont want to role play, the wont!

Liberty's Edge

You do bring up a good point. I wasnt considering weapons as 'stored' items. I was thinking of gear in backpacks, belt pouches, scroll cases, etc. That and I had a pretty nice back story built around haunted or tongues. Honestly I was leaning more toward haunted for the spells known. However, lame does make a lot of sense due to being reduced to 20ft speed anyway from wearing armor.

That said, I havent yet found out just how much emphasis my dm intends to put into the curse. Considering I put reasons for the curse into my back story I assume he will play it up a bit. Im definitely not a fan of wasting as I will end up being the party face. My group mates are new to pathfinder and Im a bit skeptical of limiting my characters diplomatic abilities. After reading your post I intend to have a chat with him and possibly request a change to lame curse. We have only played a single session so I dont think it would be a problem.

As for stats, we have something close to 15pt buy.
17(+1 at 4th)

I debated for a week about con vs cha. Honestly I chose cha at 16 b/c I decided that I might want/need to cast a spell with a DC on the enemy. Again, the decision was based around my group mates being new to pathfinder and I dont know how our group tactics etc are going to play out.

So this is the plan for the oracle. Feel free to share your opinion.
Lvl 1
Extra Revelation - Skill at Arms
Revelation - Weapon Mastery (Hvy Flail)

Lvl 3
Power Attack
Revelation - War Sight

Lvl 5
Furious Focus (Im debating Combat Casting or Extend Spell(for buffs) here. Thinking Ive got time before this decision must be absolutely made and I can see how combat plays out.)

Lvl 7
Extra Revelation - Maneuver Mastery (Trip or Disarm) Havent decided?
Revelation - Combat Healer

Beyond 7th I havent planned out explicitly b/c Id like to find out more of how our group is going to play. Some things such as, if the sorcerer doesnt want to take craft rod at lvl 9 then I will consider it. Potential team work feats to take with the rage chemist/barb is another example.

Liberty's Edge

AmosTrask32 wrote:
Also, if you haven't picked your curse yet, don't take haunted. I love the curse, but for a melee oracle, it's a death wish.

Can you elaborate on this. I was actually debating Haunted vs Tongues. As for haunted, I understand that if I drop my weapon it will be difficult to pick it back up. Other than that it will be difficult to find time to draw items from my back pack. Am I missing something in how difficult Haunted can make things for a battle oracle specifically?

For the other concerns you mentioned.

Hvy Flail is the weapon of choice but I intend to have a flail/shield combo for times of extreme difficulty. Also, while I dont have an int of 13 I can take Maneuver Mastery(x). So assuming I live to lvl 7 I will pick up mastery for either trip or disarm. I am not completely decided yet. Also, while enlarged I can perform a trip on most medium creatures as they provoke an AoO from me getting close. For the hp, while its not a perfect solution I chose Toughness as my 1st feat and I have a 14 con.

My spell selection is also intended to assist in survivability through damage mitigation and output as well. I am hoping that the party can work well enough together that I do not have to begin casting cure spells too often in combat. That will depend on our tactics of course.

Liberty's Edge

TOZ wrote:
I mean, you have to in reach of the enemy to use it. It's a good way to be full attacked to death!

Silly Fighter, battle is won in the mind not the arm.

Liberty's Edge

Thank you all for the information. I ultimately decided upon Human Battle Oracle. After getting started on the campaign I can say I think it will be very fun.

So our party ended up as this...

Human Battle Oracle (Ulfen Noble Warrior/Mystic)
Human Rage Chemist with a dip into barbarian (Crazy 2hand wielder)
Human Sorcerer - Cross Fey/Serpentine (Varisian Gypsy - Manipulator)
Gnome Druid with dip into Ranger (Ranged and Spells)

So while not having a full front liner the 4 man group did end up with a good mix of capability. There is a decent amount of versatility due to every member bringing some form of casting to the table. Myself, the oracle, and the Rage Chemist will be the front line. Of course we will use spells/abilities to increase our melee combat ability. While we are supported from range by the other 2. The party also ended up with 3 people able to cast healing spells and the sorcerer is building UMD.

BTW, I went with a Hvy Flail as a weapon of choice. I intend to take advantage of the Trip and Disarm qualities.

I think it will be a very fun adventure.

Liberty's Edge

Helaman wrote:

I hear Battle Oracles are the mutts nutts, the bees knees and assorted fine bits of other creatures.

Any suggestions on spell, feat and stat selections?

Human as your race.

Not knowing your stat makeup, ie 15,20,25 point buy or rolls I'll just say stats this way.
Str primary
Cha and Con Secondary
Dex Tertiary
Int and Wis dump

Your spell selection will depend on your cha stat. If you manage a cha greater than 16 then imo you can add some debuffs to your spells. If your cha is a 14 or lower then Id suggest sticking to buffs and battlefield control spells which do not directly target your enemy.

Feats -
Toughness - You are not a fighter, you need more hp.
Power Attack
Extra Revelation

I only list those 3 b/c those 3 are what I would call required feats, yet you could get away without having extra revelation. Feats beyond those 3 would be where you want to specialize your oracle.

My oracle of battle at lvl 1 was like this...
Str 17(increase to 18 at 4th)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16 (I debated a long time having a 16 con or 16 cha. I chose the 16 cha b/c I wanted to open my spell selection a bit with higher dc's.

Lvl 1 feats
Extra Revelation(Skill at Arms)

Lvl 1 revelation - Weapon Mastery (Heavy Flail)

Lvl 3 feat - Power Attack
Revelation - War Sight

Lvl 5 feat - Furious Focus

Lvl 7 feat - Extra Revelation (Maneuver Mastery - Trip)
Revelation - Combat Healer

Spell Selection is primarily buffs with some battle field control and debuffs.

Liberty's Edge

SandyHill wrote:
With non-fighter classes, would having improved and greater <insert combat maneuver of choice> be a useful addition to the bag of tricks. Given that BAB is lower than fighting classes, wouldn't being able to trip and loading on the hurt on a prone opponent make sense? Same with things like feints or dirty tricks. All these combat maneuvers seem tailor made to level the playing field somewhat. This seems even more true given that most builds discussed are about damage maximization and not necessarily increased chance to hit. Any thoughts?

Battle Oracles are great for a chosen combat maneuver. Maneuver Mastery Revelation puts the Battle Oracle on or near par with other classes. I am currently using a Battle Oracle with Maneuver Mastery (Disarm) + Heavy Flail and he succeeds a good amount on his disarm attempts. I also plan to take imp trip to give my character another combat option.

Liberty's Edge

Secane wrote:
Can a NG Cleric of Cayden Cailean(CG) Cast Archon's Aura? a evocation [good, lawful]; Level cleric 3, paladin 3 spell?

Another question to add to this. Can a Oracle of Battle cast Archon's Aura? Oracles dont follow specific deities but get their powers from a list of deities. Iomedae is on the Battle Oracle list.

Liberty's Edge

sciphit wrote:

"At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels."

That's what d20pfsrd says about bonus spells.
One of my fellow players is a fey sorcerer. When 3rd level came around for us he got his first bonus spell, entangle in this case, and our brains all melted. Entangle is a level 1 Druid/Ranger spell. So what level is it for the Sorcerer? Is it now a level 1 Sorcerer/Ranger/Druid spell? If he scribed a scroll of it does the universe implode trying to figure out the pricing model?

There's some logical leap we made that it's treated as a 2nd level spell (but I cant for the life of me find anything substantial) and if that's the case he cant even cast it until 4th level at all (even with high charisma like say a 4th level ranger or paladin) since there's an insurmountable - (dash) over 2nd level spells until 4th level on the table.

Shed some light?

In this case Entangle counts as a 1st lvl sorcerer spell. Sorcerer bonus spells are sometimes spells that are on other spell lists. See Celestial Bloodline, as well as Fey and others.

If he made a scroll of it, a 1st lvl wizard would still need UMD to cast it as Entangle is not on the wizards spell list.

Liberty's Edge

Thats a good question. I am beginning to have a similar issue with my human battle oracle. What I am doing, other than spell selection, is talking to my group about tactics. We are a four man party...

Human Battle Oracle
Human Barbarian/Rage Chemist
Human Crossblooded Fey/Serpentine Sorcerer
Gnome Ranger/Druid(ranged and spells)

I have had to tell the barb not to run up until the party is ready. Ive talked with the party about many of the ways that each of us can assist in damage mitigation without relying on healing. Things like as been mentioned already in this thread. Buffs such as displacement from the sorcerer or the gnome assisting in battlefield control. The barbarian allowing our battlefield control to channel the enemy to us or incapacitate a few before we engage.

So yes, spell selection is important but the tactics you all use are just as equally, or even more effective.

Liberty's Edge

Since you want a bad ass healer, have you considered a Life Oracle? Can still use Aasimar as someone else suggested. Human is also still great if your DM does not allow Aasimar. In fact if you like the Life Oracle human may be better than Aasimar due to the favored class bonus.

Liberty's Edge

Dwarf or Human.

--Edit-- Since you put bad ass healer I retract my dwarf statement and merely suggest human.

Liberty's Edge

Im in agreement that you do not need a 18-20 in a stat starting your character. I am playing a battle oracle right now and I decided to not have a maxed out stat. I have the following...

17, 12, 14, 8, 8, 16

I am not missing an 18 or 20 currently. I plan to increase str to 18 at lvl 4. My character is definitely performing well with the stats listed. Of course role playing the low int and wis is quite interesting.

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