Dragon Disciple: How to make this work?


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@Dragonchess: hey - good idea on the small dip for the DD/sorc to pick up EK some. It'll definitely boost bab, BUT I still think that if you're STR-boosting like a fighter w/the sorc, the "to hits" will be insane, even with a lower bab.

The only *real* loss will be the iterative progression, but w/the DD's BITE adding to the claw attacks of the sorc - it's going to balance out anyway as the cla/claw/bite still gets the sorcerer +12 bab and iteratives anyway ... plus 2 strikes (basically) at a higher (full) bab - so ... yeah.

Again - *just sayin'* it's out there.

EK's a nice idea too: similar HD, better bab, and some more feats with only 1 level loss of casting. Thing is it has NO synergy w/the bloodline powers in gain - at all. So if you go that rout, you're also trading off the bloodline progression.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Speaker in Dreams wrote:
@Dragonchess: hey - good idea on the small dip for the DD/sorc to pick up EK some. It'll definitely boost bab, BUT I still think that if you're STR-boosting like a fighter w/the sorc, the "to hits" will be insane, even with a lower bab.

The loss of +5 BAB (over the course of 20 levels) is pretty significant for a melee combatant. Now, if you're not expecting to progress beyond 10th-12th level, you'll only see a slight difference (+1 to +2 BAB, usually). However, it quickly becomes an issue with higher level play.

The Speaker in Dreams wrote:
The only *real* loss will be the iterative progression, but w/the DD's BITE adding to the claw attacks of the sorc - it's going to balance out anyway as the cla/claw/bite still gets the sorcerer +12 bab and iteratives anyway ... plus 2 strikes (basically) at a higher (full) bab - so ... yeah.

Except you get Dragon Bite in the first 4 levels of dragon disciple, anyway. Sorcerer 3/dragon disciple 4 gives all of the 7th level bloodline abilities, including 1d6 claw/bite damage and being treated as magic to overcome DR. The only loss is the additional 1d6 energy damage (and +2 or more on attack rolls is mathematically more significant than +1d6 on damage).

Also, the claws and bites are natural attacks; see pg. 182 of the Core Rulebook: "You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus." While you can attack with a weapon (for the iteratives) and natural attacks, "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack... When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapon and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting."

The Speaker in Dreams wrote:
EK's a nice idea too: similar HD, better bab, and some more feats with only 1 level loss of casting. Thing is it has NO synergy w/the bloodline powers in gain - at all. So if you go that rout, you're also trading off the bloodline progression.

If you want more bloodline abilities, go with barbarian 2/sorcerer 4/dragon disciple 8/eldritch knight 6 or paladin 3/sorcerer 4/dragon disciple 8/eldritch knight 5 for +16 BAB and 12th level bloodline abilities.

Dragonchess Player wrote:
It all depends on what the player wants out of the character and the trade-offs they are willing to accept.

Liberty's Edge

I ran a Dragon Disciple sorcerer in 3.0 (my first character [in 3.X]) and was surpirsed with the character I ended up with. Melee monster!!! Could nearly out-fight the fighters. The STR boosts (and being large) more than made up for the fact that I didn't have high level spells.

In Pathfinder the Dragon Disciple looks like it only got better.

Yes, if you want spell power just stay a sorcerer.

Liberty's Edge

Fighters can't cast quickened True Strike and Power Attack. I don't care what a Bard can do with Dragon Disciple, Sorcerers are what it's intended for and they gain the most benefits out of having it.
Sure you give up some caster levels for being a Dragon Disciple but if you want caster levels just stay a sorcerer, if you want to blow things up all day long, stay a sorcerer. If you want to cast a spell or two on yourself and get in the melee, be a Dragon Disciple.
Haste (which gets everyone), greater invisibility, greater heroism, and the aforementioned quickened true strike, are all great combat options that you only need 1 or 2 of to make a big difference in a fight.


overdark wrote:

Fighters can't cast quickened True Strike and Power Attack. I don't care what a Bard can do with Dragon Disciple, Sorcerers are what it's intended for and they gain the most benefits out of having it.

Sure you give up some caster levels for being a Dragon Disciple but if you want caster levels just stay a sorcerer, if you want to blow things up all day long, stay a sorcerer. If you want to cast a spell or two on yourself and get in the melee, be a Dragon Disciple.
Haste (which gets everyone), greater invisibility, greater heroism, and the aforementioned quickened true strike, are all great combat options that you only need 1 or 2 of to make a big difference in a fight.

Ok, the fighters line doesn't matter.

Sorcerers might be its intent but they do not gain the most benefit from it.

If you want to cast a spell or two on yourself and get into melee use a bard -- if you want to cast several spells on yourself and get into the end of melee -- and still possibly die from lack of HP, AC, and not hit much due to low BAB then use a sorcerer.

A bard is going to have:

More HP
More Skill points
More AC (shield and armor bonus of a maximum of +11 (armor) and +7 shield beats the sorcerer's +8 armor (bracers) and +6 shield (mithral buckler) -- and if the sorcerer spends on arcane armor training then he's wasted two feats and his swift action)
Better buffs in this case (even transformation not withstanding -- since the bard can still *cast* with his buffs)
Better use of power attack
Better use of arcane strike
Better weapons when he runs out of claw/claw/bite rounds
Better save throws

Yes he won't have the highest level 9 spells -- but then if you are DDing as you said -- that's not what you are looking for is it?

EVERYTHING the DD gives is a bonus to the bard -- the bloodline powers, the stat boosts, the good fort save, the blindsense, the flight, all of it.

Most of what the sorcerer gets he would have gotten if he stayed sorcerer.

Therefore the bard gets more benefits from the PrC than the sorcerer does.


Hey now, be fair ... if you're going armor and such for Bard as a bard-advantage, then hit the sorcerer's up w/their advantage - ie: BETTER defensive spells and the like.

blurr, mirror image, displacement - nearly all of which simply trump OUTRIGHT any AC value you want to toss up there.

They're sorcerers! They get *all* of the spell access that Bards only *wish* they had.

Now, that aside, sure - bard will get quite a few boons from it. Sorcerers get to go OUT OF CLASS and *still* get their 20th level bloodline capstone ... that's pretty potent, IMO. A Bard ... *at best* will pick up to 10th level bloodline traits - if he sacrifices his top casting levels, too.

There's give and take on both ends as well. Bards get a bump from d8 to d12's in hd, but sorcerers DOUBLE their hp gain. They also bump their fort saves as well. (ie: +1 more good save for both classes - bard, though, starts out with 2 good ones - going DD isn't *more* of a boon as both simply get a +1 better save progression period).

If the DD is going to "transform" then he's likely going to do so as his last action with whatever buffs he wants up and running - all of which trump the HELL out of the bard's accessible spells (since he/she can choose from whatever arcane junk he/she wants). At that point, diving into melee w/a long duration Iron Skin, and Displacement along with Haste in play ... yeah, transformation will just about guarantee some serious nastiness. Or, dragonform and THEN transformation on top ... just for ha-ha's! Sure, it takes some time, but hot DAMN try n' get in his way ... it's powerful. It's nearly overwhelming.

{man ... what's w/all the bard's getting so much fan-service around here??}


Speaker I would LOVE to give those to the sorcerer --

Except the bard also get mirror image, blur and displacement (as well as blink, dimension door etc)

The bard does not sacrifice his top level of casting -- he gets sixth level spells at caster level 16 not 18.

The sorcerer that sticks with the DD will lose his 9th level spells.

The HD, BAB and fort save increases helps both classes equally so I'll call that part a draw -- the big issue is that 10 levels of bard provides +7 will +3 fort +7 ref, +7 BAB armor yada yada, compared to the sorcerer's +7 will +3 fort +3 ref +5 BAB lack of armor yada yada yada.

The Sorcerer doesn't have any buff spell of combat consequence that the bard doesn't have or that inspire courage (even at +2) doesn't equal and that Good hope isn't as good if not better than.

Little known fact -- Transformation is based on character level of the target not caster level so the Bard could use a scroll of it at minimum caster level and get the same effect the sorcerer did for casting it himself.

However the Bard needs it less, and can still do other stuff with his spells if he needs to while still fighting -- the sorcerer that wants to cast anything has to spend a standard action dismissing his transformation spell then cast. The bard has the upper hand in versitility on this point since he doesn't need transformation and he doesn't have the set backs of the spell.

Bard also has freedom of movement and heroes' feast which the sorcerer doesn't have access too.

I'm not saying that sorcerer doesn't have nice spells -- I'm saying they don't have enough good self buffing spells that the bard doesn't have to make up for what the bard does have over the sorcerer in the specific category of magically assisted warrior.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Greetings, fellow travellers.

I am sorry to let this thread surface again, but it convinced me all the more to try a bard/dd combination.

I agree, that a splash of paladin, fighter, what-not adds to the degree of optimization, but this is not possible in the games I DM or participate as player - so bard/dd it is! Also, core only material, please.

Right.

The idea would be to make him some kind of guard in a city, therefore I would like him to have a polearm. I lean heavily towards guisarme because of its trip and reach abilities (and because of flavour).

I know, that a bard has proficiency with the whip, but due to the fact, that he wears light armor, has few(er) hp and doesn't threaten with a whip, I am reluctant to let him use it. Also, if I was successful in tripping my opponent, I have no means to close into melee and deal some damage.

So far the concept is as follows:

- human
- versatile performance sing (bawdy songs) and percussion (drum)
- bard 5/dd2/bard 5/dd 4/bard 2/dd 2
- fav class bard +1 hp

Question 1:
is about the feats; I thought:
CharLvl01 Martial Weapon Prof. (Guisarme), Imp. Initiative
CharLvl03 Power Attack
CharLvl05 Combat Reflexes
CharLvl07 Imp. Trip (DD feat Great Fortitude)
CharLvl09 Greater Trip
CharLvl11 Cleave
CharLvl13 Lunge
CharLvl15 Toughness (DD feat Quicken Spell)
CharLvl17 ???
CharLvl19 ???

Question2:
I am not sured if the combination bard/dd and trip is an as good combo as, say a bard/dd with a longspear, focusing on sunder or disarm combat manouvers. Could you give me some opinions including feats, please?

Question3:
Has someone tried a (long)sword&board bard/dd - to me it looks very feat hungry _AND_ you would have to invest heavily in DEX to get the TWF going (This hurts even more, since we roll all our stats where an array added up equaling less than 72 is discarded and you roll again all six stats). Any ideas on that?

Question4:
Screw all of the above, make him a half-orc, equip with a falchion/greataxe, let him be a barbaric-flavoured skald who tries to chop his way to greatness. Any good?

Thanks for bearing with me through the long text block!

Ruyan


Arcane duelist bard/DD would be enticeing...

Liberty's Edge

Kryzbyn wrote:
Arcane duelist bard/DD would be enticeing...

No kidding. There is a laundry list of reasons: use a 2h weapon OR sword + heavy shield while retaining your ability to cast spells, 2 nescessary feats for free in the first two levels, and at the highest levels free medium armor proficiency with no spell failure.


As was mentioned, the strongest DD is now the Arcane Duelist Bard 16/ Dragon Disciple 4. There really is no reason to pick up more than 4 levels of Dragon Disiple, you get more spells levels from sticking the AD Bard, you get better armor selection, which makes up for the 2 points of Natural Armor you would get out of sticking with DD to 8 (the other dump point for DD). It really is hard to say no to that class combo.

Is it better than the Paladin combination. Whew...that is a tough one, but I am going to have to say that with the AD Bard yes, AD Bard definitely wins out. With a core bard, I think the paladin combination just eeks ahead as more optimal. [responding to all the others in the thread]


Doc Cosmic wrote:

As was mentioned, the strongest DD is now the Arcane Duelist Bard 16/ Dragon Disciple 4. There really is no reason to pick up more than 4 levels of Dragon Disiple, you get more spells levels from sticking the AD Bard, you get better armor selection, which makes up for the 2 points of Natural Armor you would get out of sticking with DD to 8 (the other dump point for DD). It really is hard to say no to that class combo.

Is it better than the Paladin combination. Whew...that is a tough one, but I am going to have to say that with the AD Bard yes, AD Bard definitely wins out. With a core bard, I think the paladin combination just eeks ahead as more optimal. [responding to all the others in the thread]

AD Bard wins over Paladin due to having no Alignment Restrictions. For the Paladin you have to take 3 classes vs 2 for the AD.


voska66 wrote:
AD Bard wins over Paladin due to having no Alignment Restrictions. For the Paladin you have to take 3 classes vs 2 for the AD.

Well, that isn't necessarily true. For the AD Bard to beat out the Paladin combination, there need to be enough levels to invest into the class. If this was a PFS character (max level 12) than the Paladin 7 / Sorcerer 1 / Dragon Disciple 4 combination is much more powerful than the AD Bard/DD combinations for that level.

And Lawful Good isn't that bad. Lawful just means you stick to a code. Good just means you don't go out of your way to cripple/kill people. Technically Batman is Lawful Good (he never breaks his code, and doesn't maim the bad guys for no reason).

The Exchange

As others have suggested, I recommend Bard. Depending on what you're going for, better yet would be an Arcane Duelist bard.

I'd go Bard 5, the 8 levels of Dragon Disciple, then Bard for as many levels are left (3 by your estimate).

Take the Trait that gives +2 caster level up to your HD and you'll have spells like a level 14 bard, but with caster level 16. If you stick with this build and stay away from spells that allow saves, a +2 charisma headband is all you'll ever need.

Put your level bumps into strength and by the end of the campaign you'll have 25 before items. Between Arcane Strike (gained from Arcane Duelist), Power Attack, your bardic song (+2) and 5th level bard spells (focusing on buffs) you should be a powerhouse in melee, with plenty of versatility on top of that.

str 15+2
dex 14
con 14
int 10
wis 8
cha 14

You wind up with 8d8+8d12+48(con bonusx16)+8(favored class bonus)+16(toughness) for a fairly impressive 168 hp.

By stopping at level 8 of DD you get full caster level, can begin performance as a move action, and a very slightly better base attack bonus (compared to Bard 6/DD 10). It's only a difference of 12/7/2 versus 11/6/1, BUT that multiple of 4 means you get more damage out of power attack.

The only thing I'd miss about taking that 9th (and possibly 10th) level of DD is the wings ability, but I don't think it's worth the caster level and BAB loss.


From what I have tried/tested, this is my optimal build. Please note this uses abilities/archetypes from the APG, UC, and I think UM.

Wizard 6:
Fighter 1: Unbreakable
Dragon Disciple 4
Eldritch Knight 9

Notes:
For Wizard: Transmutation School. Shapechange Subtype.
This will help you boost your Str/Con every day. The shapechange gives you a secondary natural attack for when you do full round attacks. You can use the extra transmutation spell slots to prepare buffs.

Fighter: Unbreakable gives you Endurance and Diehard as bonus feats, giving you an extra turn should you go under 0 hp.

DD only goes up to 4. I know it sucks that there are only 4 levels in DD. However, note that this allows for 3/4 BAB and 3/4 CL. When stacked with 6 from Wizard and 8 from EK,you actually hit level 17 wizard for the purpose of spells. Meaning that at level 20 you can cast Time stop and whatever other lv9 spell you wish.

On the other hand, if you want to be more flavorful, I would suggest something amongst these lines:

Barbarian 1
Sorcerer (Draconic) 6
Dragon Disciple 8
Eldritch Knight: 5
Total BAB: 15. Total CL: 16.
At level 20 you cap out at 8th level spells, with same BAB as rogue/monk/bard whatever

This way you get to the level 9 draconic bloodline benefits (actually 10, but who cares bout 10?), along with +4 to str and +2 int, +4 nat armor, 3 bonus feats (Improved Initiative, Toughness, and something else), and Dragon Form once per day...not too shaby.

The 5 levels in EK also give you 2 more bonus combat feats.

Finally, the level in barbarian gives you access to rage. Muahahahahaha.

Oh and another thing: Make sure to pick the traits magical Knack and Heirloom Weapon. If you don't care much about your spellcasting abilities, then replace Magical Knack with Reactionary. Heirloom weapon (imo) is one of the best traits in the game if you play a class that uses a weapon.


Thread necromancy.

Personally I'd go paladin 2/sorc 3/ DD 4 / EK10 and put level 20 in sorc

With this you can really get the most out of your charisma and you end up with 8th level spells (CL18th if you have the +2CL trait) and a BAB of 17 plus your focused stat of charisma to an already pretty impressive save set.

Put all your level bumps into charisma, let magic and class bonuses work up your strength. I'd probably invest in the 3 feat chain to get off a full attack after a dimension door (called dimensional agility), because you'll be using that spell a lot later so you can pull off full attacks.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

Anyone ever thought of this combo:

Fighter 1/Oracle(lore) 4/Sorc 1/DD 8/Mystic Theurge 6

This gives you spells as a level 10 oracle and a level 13 Sorc.

At level 20
BAB = +13
Fort +9
Ref +6
Will +13

Also, with the Lore Oracles Sidestep Mystery, you can use you Cha in place of Dex for AC and Reflex saves, thus giving you two or even three dump stats Dex, Wis, Int and rectifying your Low Reflex save.

You end up with a ton of weapon feats and get the bonus fighter feat. You do not get mega spells, but one hell of a wide range. Also, if you are willing to forgo a few feats, you can take the Eldrich Heritage feat tree and get +6 to Str with Abyssmal or Orcish -- or +6 Con with Pit-Fiend.

You get stuck with an oracle curse, but these can be fun to play, or just take tongues or lame.

Definitely take the +2 CL trait.

Also, if you are considering the Abyssal bloodline for the Eldrich Heritage, playing a Tiefling - Demon-spawn is a good option as you get +2 to both Cha and Str.


Zolthux wrote:

From what I have tried/tested, this is my optimal build. Please note this uses abilities/archetypes from the APG, UC, and I think UM.

Wizard 6:
Fighter 1: Unbreakable
Dragon Disciple 4
Eldritch Knight 9

This class line-up does not meet the pre-requisites for the Dragon Disciple.

Also, extreme thread necro.

Also also: why not utilize the Barbarian 4/Sorc 1/DD 10/whatever else you want 5 lineup?


Serisan wrote:
Zolthux wrote:

From what I have tried/tested, this is my optimal build. Please note this uses abilities/archetypes from the APG, UC, and I think UM.

Wizard 6:
Fighter 1: Unbreakable
Dragon Disciple 4
Eldritch Knight 9

This class line-up does not meet the pre-requisites for the Dragon Disciple.

Also, extreme thread necro.

Also also: why not utilize the Barbarian 4/Sorc 1/DD 10/whatever else you want 5 lineup?

Did not notice that it needed to be spontaneous casting. My bad. Wait, would using Spell Mastery on a couple of level 1 spells work?. If not, I guess then it's just Sorc 6 instead.

As for why I don't want to use DD10: because im trying to optimize both martial and casting capability. DD4 loses only 1 BAB and CL. DD4 loses 2 BAB and DD4 but still brings some nice benefits. The last 2 abilities do not really seem worth the loss of BAB/CL.

Wizard, however, still seems like a good option. Five level in Wiz gives us access to +2 str, which would neatly stack with the +4 from DD.

another build then can be

Sorc 1 (Draconic, though I would probably just crossblood with Elemental Primal)
Wizard 5 (Transmutation/Shapechange)
Fighter 1 (Unbreakable)
DD4
EK 9

Final BAB: 15
Final CL (Wizard): 16 (level 8 spells, no time stop :()
Abilities worth noting:
- Bloodline grants +2 damage/die rolled for any one type of element (or i guess you can do +1 damage/die for two elements), along with spontaneously casting some extra spells (11 cha is all you need to get those extra level 1 spells...they won't do much, but whatever)
- Wizard school allows for +2 to ONE physical score each day. Also allows for that extra natural attack. We also get one of each transmutation level spell, and the lv5 wizard feat (or arcane discoveries from UM)
- Unbreakable fighter means that you will have both Endurance and Diehard.
- the 4 levels in DD give you +4 str, +3 Nat Armor, 2 bloodline feats.
- 9 levels in EK still give us the 3 bonus combat Feats.
One more thing:

People suggested Paladin/DD. Double level dip in Paladin gives us amazing saves (i've run a sorcerer/Paladin gish before) and Smite Evil still lets us overcome DR.

Liberty's Edge

I agree that a class build such as...

Sorc 1/(Melee Class) 4/DD 8 or 10

does gain more benefit from the melee aspects of the DD. However, Id like to just add that a...

Crossblooded Draconic/Orc 5/DD 8 or 10

Can have some significant strength boosts to assist in its melee. Another fun build could be...

Barbarian 2/Cross Draconic/Orc 3/DD 8 or 10

This build is gaining str boosts from Orc bloodline, DD ability boosts, and rage. Cha doesnt need to be high enough to land spells with DCs for Sorcerer/DD. The character can limit spell selection to buffs or control spells without saves. The same concept that many EK builds or low point buy Wildshape druids use.


I like the Arcane Duelist Bard for the DD. You can cast in Medium armor and for a feat take mitheral full plate when you hit level 10 as BARD. Combine that with the DD natural armor and strength it's a very nice combo.


Spell mastery does not work RAI

Q: With a wizards Arcane Bond's power to allow for casting arcane spells spontaneously can they qualify for the Dragon Disciple Prestige Class?

A: (James Jacobs 11/20/09) First off... I'm not a big fan of saying what you can and can't do in your home game. And as a result, I'm generally hesitant to lay down the law for things like this, since I can see the attraction to go either way. What it really boils down to is if the GM wants to let wizards qualify for the class... that's cool. Arcane bond's power to allow a wizard to cast an additional spell was not intended to let wizards "sneak" into prestige classes that do this, but there's no game balance reason as to why they shouldn't be able to do it. But for materials we're publishing, though, and for building NPCs who might have this class, being able to cast arcane spells spontaneously means "being a bard or a sorcerer" at this point. [Source]


voska66 wrote:
I like the Arcane Duelist Bard for the DD. You can cast in Medium armor and for a feat take mitheral full plate when you hit level 10 as BARD. Combine that with the DD natural armor and strength it's a very nice combo.

Save the feat and use Celestial Full Plate

Celestial has been stated to no require a feat to wear. [link]


What level are ya'll playing at?

Seriously, if you want to play a dragon disciple, you want to play a dragon disciple, not a bard 10. That takes what.. 6 months of weekly gaming to get to? How long do your campaigns last that 6 months of working up to STARTING your prestige class is an acceptable build up?

Pally 2 Sorc 3 DD X You have the cha anyway, snag some of the best saves in the game. Lets you build your spellcasting quickly.

Pally 4 sorc 1: For smite 2x per day and a better BAB.

Barbarian 4 (possibly with invulnerable rager) Sorc 1 DD X- Rage, good attack bonuses, Some dr. Without invulnerable rager you're a rogue killer- you get blindsense, and you get nigh immunity to sneak attack.

Bard 1 (arcane duelist) Fighter DDX 4-Weapon specialization and +1 to the party's hit if you have a round.

Bardbarian Barbarian 4 bard 1 DD X.: Heavy metal head bashing.


Norse has some good ideas with the 2 level pally dip for the stupid high saves.

I think that with the proper stacking, the base saves are comparable to a regular pally (high fort/will, bad ref)

I guess also something to consider is how much spellcasting you're willing to relinquish.

I think 3/4 BAB is acceptable, personally. Lv8 spells also seem nice, even if it's just FotD3

someone mentioned getting celestial full plate earlier. If you are able to make a character that has many bonus feats, you could fit in Arcane Armor Training and Mastery.

I was thinking of this build yesterday

Fighter 1
Sorcerer 4 (Draconic, of course)
DD8
Sorcerer 2
EK 5

You gain 3 bonus combat feats from Fighter/EK. You also gain Eschew Materials (Useful for when you cast form of the Dragon). Because you are 14 levels of draconic sorcerer you get 2 bloodline feats, +3 from Dragon Disciple (Toughness, Improved Initiative, Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, and I would suggest Power Attack, but do you want it at level 8 earliest). This is all without counting your standard odd level feat, and if you're human, level 1 feat.

So you take Vital/Improved Vital/Devastating Strike later on, along with Combat Casting (sure why not), Arcane Strike, and you still have feats to spare.

Depending on your energy type, you could consider point blank shot and precise shot and cast ray spells matching your dragon type for ranged damage (Scorching Ray if you're fire, or buy an elemental rod with whatever energy type you want)

If you don't want to do PBS and PS because you'd rather just focus on the melee, then there's your 2 armor feats.

Finally, statwise, the 8 levels of DD give you +4 str, +2 con and +2 int. The int might be nice later on because now you can dump ranks in fly. Also, perception is the class skill of Draconic Sorcerer so yay


Has anyone ever thought of using a summoner instead of a sorcerer or a bard?

Wait! I'm not crazy (well, maybe a little)

Make your eidolon a skill monkey/scout, use your summon abilities so you can get flanking buddies (or disarm the traps your eidolon couldn't) while taking advantage of the 3/4 BAB, having Know(arcana) as class skill and getting early access to Haste!

Maybe?

I was going to mention the synthesist archetype, but I don't think the DD stat enhancement does stack with the fused form

Though I can see some advantages for Master summoner of Broodmaster...

Any takers?


Drothmal wrote:

Has anyone ever thought of using a summoner instead of a sorcerer or a bard?

Wait! I'm not crazy (well, maybe a little)

Make your eidolon a skill monkey/scout, use your summon abilities so you can get flanking buddies (or disarm the traps your eidolon couldn't) while taking advantage of the 3/4 BAB, having Know(arcana) as class skill and getting early access to Haste!

Maybe?

I was going to mention the synthesist archetype, but I don't think the DD stat enhancement does stack with the fused form

Though I can see some advantages for Master summoner of Broodmaster...

Any takers?

Eh...I think it depends on how far you wanna go with the original spontaneous caster.

I suppose that you could do Summoner12/DD8. That way you only go back 3 levels of summoner, but gain most of the benefits from DD (abilities, feats) that sorta thing


Shouldn't that be 2 lvls behind summoner?

Yeah, depending on how you are swinging the character, you can do summonerX/DD4 or summonerX/DD8

Also, an interesting build would be

At lvl 13

summoner3/paladin2/DD8

BAB=+10

Crazy saves, access to self haste, tons of CHA synergy, stat boosts, a relatively flexible skill monkey (if you invest in the skilled evolution), summon spells, buff spells, can cast in light armor, smite evil

The more I write about it, the more interesting it seems....


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Seriously, if you want to play a dragon disciple, you want to play a dragon disciple, not a bard 10. That takes what.. 6 months of weekly gaming to get to?

I don´t believe they ever mentioned the order those classes are taken in.

No reason you can´t enter DD as soon as possible, and take the rest of those levels to reach Bard 10 after finishing DD, or possibly dipping back in Bard while continuing to progress DD (cherry picking class abilities as you advance). DD only has 10 levels, so if you enter it as soon as possible you will HAVE to take other classes, going back into Bard is a pretty reasonable choice if that was your base. Most opinion on DD I¨ve seen here doesn´t seem find the last 2 levels compelling to take anyways.

--------------------------------------------

Summoner is interesting... but problematic.
Your Eidolon just isn´t going to be up to snuff, since DD doesn´t advance it at all.
Likewise, your Summon SLAs won´t be great either (though trash summons are better than nothing)
But basically you will just have the spells at a level semi-appropriate to signifigant opponent. Which isn´t bad... But I´d say this only looks really good if you can´t use a Battle Sorceror Variant (who also casts in Light Armor, d8 HD/BAB etc). Still, if that is true (such as in PFS play), Summoner could be a decent option. I would say if you want more Casting, go Battle Sorceror since they get more spell options. If you are going with only 1 level of a Casting Class, Summoner could work at least as well as the Battle Sorceror... and it´s lower level spells (but with early entry) end up being easier to use with Metamagic Rods.

Liberty's Edge

I was thinking about this earlier, would the dervish prc that lets bardic music count as double for the bard alone be more of a worthwhile build than the arcane duelist, assuming you don't mind being stingy with your buffs?


I've always found a one level dip in sorcerer then 5 lvls of a fighter class (ftr/bar/ranger/etc). Then play it as a *insert fighter class of choice* with a few spells.


Silly question, but with all the new books coming out and the various archetypes available what classes qualify for Dragon Disciples?
Sorcerer?
Bard?
Witch?
Summoner?
Qinggong monk?


I would like to second the Summoner. Have the eidolon be small and use wands like a mad man. Lets you buff twice as fast and rage hard on the ikkle monsters your DM/GM/ST throws at you. Plus who cares if the little eidolon dies, just resummon his butt and hand him his efficient quiver of wands. I have been thinking Summoner 4/Ranger 2/DD 8/EK 6. Gets you 6 bonus feats, caster level 15, good BAB:17(sort of like 19 because of DD str ups) decent saves, favored enemy, and a wonderful spell list(2nd level haste as a big standout). But feel free to play whatever sounds good, there are certainly plenty of ways to build a DD as this thread has shown.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean FitzSimon wrote:

Right, so this is a groovy idea, because I'm a fan of the dragon disciple. But there's a tiny catch when it comes to the DD: it's not actually that great of a prestige class for sorcerers. It only has medium BAB, which means that when paired with a sorcerer (crap BAB) it ends with a BAB of 12 at level 20. Seriously, you're coming into your third attack 2-5 levels after the effing rogue. Yuck.

Actually you get your three attacks right at the second level of DD with the dragon bite power, plus an energy charge on your dragon claws. A Sorcerer/DD 10/10 tops out at eighth level spell casting, considerable attribute boosts that stack with the bonuses granted by the dragon form spells, as well as D12 hit dice. A SS/DD also gets access to Form of the Dragon 3, which is a nice combat form again augmented by superior spell casting.

And as a sorcerer you've got one leg up on wizards who snake their way into this class by permissive GM's, you can cast in dragon shape without having to worry about a spell component pouch. You're not as much of a frontline specialist as a martial combo, but I wouldn't totally dismiss the combination.


Honestly, I must admit to being a fan of the Bard builds, but that depends on what you're going for: a melee fighter with spellcasting potential, or a spellcaster with melee potential. The choice between Sorcerer and Bard will determine this for you, though wands, rods, and stat boost items could help level the playing field between these.

That said, if you choose Sorc, the only advice I have for you are to get a mithril breastplate as soon as possible and take arcane armor training. I'm not sure, but if your DM allows older material, I think there might have been a special quality for armor that also reduced it's spell failure chance.

As for Bard, the mithril breastplate is still a good idea, and I would use half-elf as my race taking an extra round of Bardic Performance each lvl as my favored class bonus (APG). I would also take Lingering Performance and Arcane Strike as my 1st 2 feats. The former effectively triples your rounds of Bardic Performance each day (at the cost of one lost action every 3rd round), while the other grants extra dmg based entirely on CL. That said, I'd also take the Magical Knack trait for the +2 CL to offset the loss you will take with DD. It won't take your CL beyond your character lvl, and it won't make up for the lost spells, but it will help Arcane Strike and the spells you have keep up. Discordant Voice will also add 1d6 sonic dmg to all your atks and all of your allies as well.

There was one other thing too... right, archetypes.

I've heard passed about the Arcane Duelist archetype for Bard (APG). That is an admirable choice which boosts the entire party and fleshes out well with this build's extra Bardic Performances. But another archetype to consider is the Sound Striker (UM).

The reason I mention this is for their Weird Words ability which deals (1d8 + Cha) sonic/Bard lvl. True, it maxes out at 10x(1d8 + Cha), but each sound (each 1d8+Cha) requires ranged touch atk at 30 ft or less, which means that you must be in the thick of things. But you can still deal a good amount of dmg with it, especially considering how few creatures have sonic resistance. Of course, it is a standard action to use and eats away at your (not inconsiderable) BP. And there is also the question to ask you DM, as a standard action that uses BP, is it a performance that can be stretched by Lingering Performance, or is it a standard attack that doesn't interfere with your active BP, or somewhere in between?

As for Arcane Duelist, it is another very good choice for the Bladethirst ability which allows you to have just the right weapon ability to deal with that unusually pesky troll or outsider against which your weapons prove ineffective without the right enhancement. However, you cannot use this ability in conjunction with Inspire Courage, so you will have to chose if you are getting a good party buff or a slightly better personal buff each round. And since I severely doubt that you will ever attain Bard 18, you will never be able to grant those weapon enhancements to your allies.

Unfortunately, these two are not stackable, as they both replace Suggestion, or I would tell you to take both. So the decision to be made here (assuming you even choose to go with a Bard build) is whether you want to be a "true" party buffer or a "straight" dmg dealer, insofar as any Bard/DD build can be either.


Mage Evolving wrote:

Silly question, but with all the new books coming out and the various archetypes available what classes qualify for Dragon Disciples?

Sorcerer?
Bard?
Witch?
Summoner?
Qinggong monk?

Spontaneous Arcane casters only, So I think

Sorcerer
Bard
Summoner

That is all.

And Shizzle, reason I suggest dipping only one level into the martial class is for the EK pre reqs and nothing else. I'm trying to max out my spellcasting capability.

That being said, 2 level dip in a martial class is probably best suited for Paladin. Small Lay on Hands and Divine Grace, good Fort and Will, and Smite Evil ftw (Note: SE is useful for overcoming DR more than the damage)

I would honestly suggest going for either EK 5 or 9 and DD 4 or 8. As i mentioned earlier, DD 9 and 10 throw you back another BAB and CL. EK 5/9 gives you the feat and it has no other class benefits (you know, full casting, full BAB, and d10 HD aside).

For example, say you do 2P/3Sorc/8DD/2Sorc/5EK (Note the order).

Your CL is 15, BAB is 15, Draconic Sorc 13, all 4 stat bonuses, plus a ton of BL Feats (like 5 of them), and a bonus to your saves (~+4). But you only cast up to Lv7 spells (FotD2), and your BAB catches up at like, level 20. At this point I think that you are sacrificing a lot of stats for the abilities, and I think it's at the point of Diminishing Returns. (Even with Magical Knack, your -3 CL is gonna make you prone to getting dispelled, not to mention how hard it will be to overcome SR).

And whilst we're on the topic of stacking levels, I'd like to take a brief moment to talk about Human as the race of choice for a DD build:

Since we consider taking levels in sorcerer later on after finishing the DD levels, Using the Advanced Race stuff from the APG is beneficial, as it drops one of the biggest downsides of spontaneous spellcasters: Limited spells.

"Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast."

Edit: for some reason, when i post it ignores all my line spacing O_o


Ha! I noticed even before my 1st post that there were a few mentions of taking dips into Paladin or Monk to help with saves and provide other miscellaneous benefits to boot, and something tickled the back of my mind about a combination with Sorcerer, but I had been unable to find it till just now. But if you are considering either of these paths, here are a couple more tips to help with a Sorc build.

As always, Paladin stacks nicely with the Cha required to cast spells as a Sorc, and it gives good bonuses to saves at 2nd lvl with Divine Grace, however...

If you plan on going Monk, take the Empyreal Bloodline. It is a Wildblood archetype from UM which allows you to use your Wis as your primary spellcasting stat, a great stack with Monk AC and other abilities that reduces the number of required stats you will need to pump. This, combined with Monastic Legacy (Prereq: Still Mind, Imp Unarmed Strike. Add 1/2 your non-monk lvls to determine base unarmed strike dmg) will help with not just AC, but dmg as well (2d6 with just 3 lvls of monk), even when you don't have a weapon. And in this case, a good pair of gauntlets or brass knuckles will effectively enhance your unarmed strike. Granted, you will have to chose between making an unarmed strike or a claw attack once you gain that ability, but if you have a nice DM, you might just be able to deal slashing dmg with your unarmed strike and they just might let your claw enhancements stack with US too. You will also gain fast movement, evasion, still mind, and a few more perks too, depending on how many lvls you plan on devoting.

The main downside is the same as for taking a dip into Paladin: now instead of being capped at 8th lvl spells, your cap is lowered to 7th lvl.

Only restriction to this that I see to working this build is that you would have to take the Crossblooded archetype (also from UM), as the Empyreal Bloodline is associated with (and modifies) the Celestial Bloodline, which would otherwise make it incompatible with the prerequisite Draconic Bloodline for DD. The main drawbacks would be a -2 on Will saves (which is a Good save progression all the way though anyway) and -1 spells known at each lvl (which could be offset by the favored class bonus for Humans). You will have to decide what bloodline powers are most important to you, but IMO, that's still a decent tradeoff, if you like the concept.

Personally, I like this idea. I might even add in a lvl of Cleric of Sarenrae so I can layer in Weapon Focus (scimitar) and Crusader's Flurry just for fun. Maybe not the most efficient build, but damn fun!

I see it now: You land your blow, apparently stunning you opponent with the 1st hit you've been able to score in a while against this spell-casting dirvisher. As you step back to gloat, the man before you drops his scimitars, hunches over sprouting leathery wings, and lets out a terrifying guttural roar. Amazed by this display, you realize that you may have had things easy up until now.

P.S.
My choices of Bloodline Powers would probably run: 1st, claws; 3rd, Celestial Resistances ; 9th, either Breath Weapon (and take the lvl of Cleric), or Sacred Cistern (and ditch Cleric); 15th, Conviction; 20th, Ascension

Logic being that I would get better resistances and most of the other abilities are an all-or nothing effect you will still get with DD. Of course, that's just me.


I'll Second Master_Crafter's Crossblooded Empyreal draconic bloodline as the following build:

Crossblooded Empyreal/Silver Draconic 5/Sohei 1/DD (4~8)/EK (6~10)

That's wisdom to casting stat, AC and some nasty attacks. Grab yourself weapon focus with your claws and bite and go to town with feral combat training.


Mage Evolving wrote:

Silly question, but with all the new books coming out and the various archetypes available what classes qualify for Dragon Disciples?

Sorcerer?
Bard?
Witch?
Summoner?
Qinggong monk?

The requirements to be a DD are as follows:

Race: Any non-dragon.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.
Languages: Draconic.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.

Sorcerer: Yes
Bard: Yes
Witch: No, they must prepare their spells
Summoner: Yes
Qinggong Monk: Maybe, If I were DM I might allow it. He can cast a 1st level arcane spell without prep but I don't think its RAI.


Azaryth wrote:


Qinggong Monk: Maybe, If I were DM I might allow it. He can cast a 1st level arcane spell without prep but I don't think its RAI.

No -- first it's not arcane, it's a spell like ability -- which is specifically not arcane or divine. Secondly it isn't casting a spell -- at best it's casting a spell like ability, which still isn't the same (though close).


Cool thanks. Sorry for the derailment. I've always wanted to play a DD for their flavor but never really got the mechanics behind it.


Mage Evolving wrote:
Cool thanks. Sorry for the derailment. I've always wanted to play a DD for their flavor but never really got the mechanics behind it.

Not a derailment if you are asking about taking DD levels in a thread about DD levels.

Sczarni

Dragon Disciple lets you continue spellcasting progression in Arcane spells only, right? If you took 4 levels of Paladin or Ranger and one of Sorceror, would you be able to use the DD's spell progression to further your Paladin/Ranger spells?

Even if not, I think Ranger might be a decent class to go with. Ranger 4/Sorc 1/DD X gives you Lead Blades and the rest of the Ranger's spell list, plus an animal companion. Plus, the OP said he wanted a more melee-based build, so TWF as a bonus feat would be nice to accompany the claws, yes? Or do claws not work that way?


Yes, Silent Saturn, the TWF bonus feat from Ranger should compliment the claws, better even than my proposed Crossblooded Empyreal/Draconic Sorcerer/Monk build above, unless of course, the DM was nice enough to allow the claw effects to stack with Unarmed Strike and Flurry. In which case the 2d6 base US dmg would overshadow the 1d4 claw dmg.

Unfortunately, that would have to be house-ruled as I don't believe you can use natural attacks with flurry of blows for some odd reason. Something about not actually being a monk weapon, though IMO not an unreasonable stretch. Very confusing. >:(


Again check out the feat: feral combat training.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I haven't played with it at all, but I was thinking a ranger with the natural weapon combat style might be interesting because they can take the aspect of the beast and multi attack as bonus feats to get natural weapons all the time and reduce the penalty for using natural weapons as part of a full attack with manufactured weapons.


I thought about dipping a level in ranger before (Good BAB/fort/ref) and maybe even replace favored enemy with the one from the guide archetype (once per day select a creature, you get a +2 atk/dmg bonus against it till it dies or surrenders).

These are my thoughts on the martial classes that should be considered for the purpose of meeting the EK req:

Fighter: Good BAB and Fort. Bonus first level feat. The Unbreakable Archetype (UC) replaces the bonus feat with Endurance and Diehard. Situational feats? yes. But they will save your life someday. And besides, it's two feats for the price of one! However, you get more proficiency than needed, which lowers the lvl 1 benefits. Also 2 skill ranks per level

Ranger: Good BAB, Fort, Ref. A few level 1 abilities that won't be of much use to you, but you get favored enemy. 6 Skill ranks per level (!), proficient with martial weapons (yay EK) and up to medium armor (Mithral Chainshirt, hell even mithral chainmail)

Barbarian: Good BAB, good Fort, Rage, Fast movement. d12 HD. Very flavorful. 4 skill ranks per level. Much like Fighter, this class gets abilities that are good at level 1. Havent really looked into archetypes, but idk if i'd wanna replace them really.

Paladin: Level 1 dip is doable, but hardly worth it. Smite Evil is there only for overcoming DR. Detect evil is eh. I hate the alignment restriction although that should not be an issue unless you're a bad player. Paladin, I suggest 2 level dip for bonus to saves and baby Lay on Hands. (You know, in case you dont wanna use your swift action to arcane strike to hit/arcane armor training to cast).

Personally, the choices are between Barbarian and Fighter.


I wouldn't rely on the claws too much. You need to full attack to get what they're worth out of them, you're hosed if the critter has damage reduction, and even then you might be better off with a two hander followed by the free bite.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No one has mentioned it, but what about Magnus 4/Sorc 1/DD 8/Magnus 7?


TClifford wrote:
No one has mentioned it, but what about Magnus 4/Sorc 1/DD 8/Magnus 7?

Whats the advantage to that build?

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