So I've never really messed with high-level sorcerers before, but for a particular bunch of reasons I find myself in need of Sorcerer builds that work all the way up to 20th level. I'm really just hoping for some feedback, especially on the spell lists.
Half-Elf, rogue 1/Vivesectionist (alchemist) 1/ Aquatic bloodline, tattooed sorcerer 8/Arcane Trickster 10
Traits: magical knack (+2 Caster level)
Sorcerous tattoo: Conjuration (+1 caster level)
Feats: Racial Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Weapon finesse, 3 Serpentine bloodline feats (bite, natural armor, summon snake swarms) Intensify spell, empower spell, Quicken Spell, inscribe tattoo, Rogue talents: charmer, underhanded.
Alchemist formula: cure light wounds, Comprehend Languages, reduce person, shield,
Spells:
1st: Hydraulic Push (bloodline), Mage Armor, Floating Disk, true strike, Shocking Grasp, Unseen Servant
2nd: Slipstream (bloodline), warding weapon, glitterdust, seducer’s eyes, admonishing ray, spider climb
3rd: Aqueous Orb (bloodline), dispel magic, Sepia Snake Sigil, twilight knife, water breathing,
4th: dimension door, Dragon’s Breath, greater invisibility, boneshatter
5th: seeming, dismissal, geyser, Cloudkill,
6th: mass bear’s endurance, disintegrate, Mass Eagle’s Splendor (replace Bear's endurance or Eagle's Splendor with chain lightning? Freezing Sphere?)
7th: limited wish, turn spell, Firebrand
8th: greater prying eyes, frightening aspect,
9th: Tsunami
The idea: She's obviously a diplomacy expert and skilled rogue. She uses the serpentine bite as a hidden weapon for sneak attacks. her tattoo is conjuration, so her water-based conjuration spells and bloodline spells (hydraulic push, tsunami, geyser, aqueus orb) function at effective caster level 22. Her familiar is a snake.
I see her as casting invisibility, spider climbing to hard-to-reach places and carpeting the battlefield with geysers and cloudkills, saving disintegrate and boneshatter for individuals. She has no strength, so floating disk and unseen servant she leaves always on (20 hour duration) to carry her stuff. She firebrands her teammates so she can geyser the battlefield without fear, and uses greater prying eyes to find whatever she needs.
If someone needs to get close-range, or if she can turn invisible and get close enough she quickens and intensifies Shocking grasp to get three sneak attack shocks on them a round (with twilight knife). Snake sigil is just for the fun of inscribing the rune wherever people are walking she needs to stop, or even writing it on paper and showing it to people in combat.
Waterbreathing is because she gets a swim speed for her bloodline so she'd be using it whenever water is present. Glitterdust is her way of getting rid of invisible or hidden people since most of her "seeing" abilities is greater prying eyes. Doesn't effect her since she's climbing on the walls.
human Dual-blooded Sorcerer 20. Undead/Serpentine sorcerer w/ abyssal bloodline feats.
Sorcerer feats: spell focus (conjuration), toughness, Spell focus (enchantment)
Sorcerous powers: serpentine: bite, speak to snakes w/ familiar, skeletal hands, summon snake swarms, undead immunities (one of us).
Abyssal powers: claws, +6 strength, summon extra creature when summoning demons
total feats: skill focus (Planes), iron will, abyssal bloodline feat, improved iron will, spell focus (conjuration) and augmented summoning, superior summoning, abyssal bloodline feat, empowered spell and spell focus (enchantment), quickened spell, toughness and Abyssal bloodline feat, expanded arcana (reverse gravity, plane shift)
Spells:
1st: mage armor, chill touch, true strike, shield, enlarge person
2nd: touch of idiocy, spectral hand, false life, tactical acumen, defending bone
3rd: draconic reservoir vampiric touch, haste, phantom steed
4th: ball lightning, greater invisibility, animate dead, calcific touch,
5th: hold monster, wreath of blades, acidic spray, hungry pit
6th: mass suggestion, greater dispel magic, enemy hammer,
7th: finger of death, mass hold person, limited wish, (reverse gravity, plane shift)
8th: irresistible dance, protection from spells, summon monster 8
9th: dominate monster, shapechange, summon monster 9
The plan: three bloodlines, the man is all about sorcerous powers. He uses skeletal hands and summoning swarms if he needs to carpet bomb a place, uses touch spells and claws/bits/shapechange for close range, and otherwise specializes in summoning large numbers of high-level demons.
Generally speaking he summons creatures and gets in close (three 9th-level demons), and since undead, animals, monstrous humans, and virtually everything else in the world is treated as humanoid for his spells, he can hold anything with hold person and uses irresistible dance and dominate monster liberally against high-powered creatures. His favorite moves? Send you to another plane with plane shift, or if he's feeling mean he uses reverse gravity on you to shoot you 200 feet into the air, then opens a 100 foot hungry pit under you and waits for reverse gravity to wear off. He's kind of a dick, but a high-powered dick who tries to do the right thing. His snake familiar hates the arcane trickster's snake familiar mentioned above. (they go back a ways)
Human Fey blooded Sorcerer 9/Unarmed Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10
traits: Magical Knack (+2 caster level)
Feats: improved unarmed strike/snake style (Unarmed fighter feats)
Quicken spell (bloodline)
increase threat daggers, improved critical, a critical feat of some sort.
Weapon finesse, Quick Draw, two 2-weapon fighting feats
Enchant weapons and armor,
Greater Spell Focus illusion and enchantment
Skill focus Sense Motive,
Increased arcana (clenched fist, firebrand)
Spells:
1st: Entangle (bloodline) mage armor, shield, True Strike, magic missle, unerring weapon,
2nd: hideous laughter (bloodline) cushioning bands, defending bone, brow gasher, scorching ray, pilfering hand
3rd: deep slumber (bloodline), explosive runes, haste, blacklight, twilight knife,
4th: poison (bloodline), calcific touch, greater invisibility, dragon’s breath, fire shield
5th: wreath of blades, Fickle Winds, Hold Monster, overland flight,
6th: greater dispel magic, veil, cloak of dreams
7th: limited wish, greater shadow conjuration, Delay-blast fireball, firebrand,
8th: greater shadow evocation, irresistible dance, clenched fist,
9th: Dominate Monster
This character is an expert in turning invisible and attacking people at close-range. He wakes up and throws on mage armor, cushioning bands, defending bone and overland flight every day (20 hour duration each) and goes out. He gets 5 attacks a round so he can either A. calcific touch them to stone (no saving through against dex drain) or hit them with his magic daggers, unleashing spells on criticals. He uses shadow conjuration and evocation for any crowd stuff he can't handle, but mostly sticks to stealth and close-range fighting. His favorite tactic? Sneaking delay-blast fireballs in people's backpacks. Also using his godly compulsion skills (bloodline arcana plus greater spell focus) to pick off high-powered threats on the battlefield.
I really, really wanted him to get some more physical boost spells since he's a close range fighter (cat's grace, monstrous physique) but it just didn't fit, not without taking away a spell I figured he'd have a use for. Plus it would be one more round he couldn't cast/one more quickened spell he'd need, since he's already needing to cast brow gasher, unerring weapon, haste, twilight knife and blacklight once the fight starts.
Also, he uses explosive runes like a bomb. Places it on paper and attaches it to people, maybe turning invisible before the fight and inscribing it on someone's equipment so it's the first thing they see when they pull their shield off their backs. Fun times.
So what do you think?
With the dual-knife sorcerer, consider taking the empyreal bloodline and a level in the monk archetype that does not require you to be lawful (martial artist, i think it was called). That way, you get your primary caster stat as a bonus to AC as well. You do take another hit to your casting, though. (Opinions will vary on whether a +8 (or higher) bonus to AC is worth level 9 spell slots.)
I think that the levels in rogue and vivisectionist stack to make an effective rogue level 2, which would not have a 2d6 sneak attack, and thus would not qualify for Arcane Trickster, unless your DM let it slide.
But otherwise, it looks like a cool build. And I like the idea of being able to sneak attack with a tsunami.
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The Sorcerous Trickster: Works good until you get past level 13. Thats when you start haven to deal with SR and stupid high saves.
Powerhouse Sorcerer: This plan will work until around level 6 or so. When your summons start to be come less and less effective. I have never been a big fan of summoning. There are some advantages to it. They are not off set by the fact nothing you can summon after level 6 is really any threat to something you will be fighting. Spell should read summon flanker because thats what your doing for the rogue or fighter in the group. And any caster in melee after level 10 is good as dead because monsters at this level are doing close to 100 HP a turn or more.
The Dual-Knife Sorcerer: Remember after level 10 most monsters are doing 100HP or more. And remember after level 14 most of them have access to true seeing. And it's a long time to get Mind Blank + Greater Invisibility to get past true seeing.
In order to be effective as a high level caster you will need your casting stat maxed out. And have full caster level to get past SR. Even then the rules for casters change the most after level 13. This is when every thing you fight will have some kind of immunity or resistance. And it only gets worse as you level. When you get to 15+ 90%+ will have SR of some kind and some will have really high SR. At 18+ 90% will be immune to multiple damage types and have insane SR.
To my understanding sneak attack levels don't stack, it's the sneak attack itself, so a rogue/vivesectionist shouldn't be a problem that way.
I just really, really wanted some sort of access to 9th level magic.
Where can I find info on the Empyreal bloodline? I can't find it in my books or at www.d20pfsrd.com
The Sorcerous Trickster: Works good until you get past level 13. Thats when you start haven to deal with SR and stupid high saves.
Powerhouse Sorcerer: This plan will work until around level 6 or so. When your summons start to be come less and less effective. I have never been a big fan of summoning. There are some advantages to it. They are not off set by the fact nothing you can summon after level 6 is really any threat to something you will be fighting. Spell should read summon flanker because thats what your doing for the rogue or fighter in the group. And any caster in melee after level 10 is good as dead because monsters at this level are doing close to 100 HP a turn or more.
The Dual-Knife Sorcerer: Remember after level 10 most monsters are doing 100HP or more. And remember after level 14 most of them have access to true seeing. And it's a long time to get Mind Blank + Greater Invisibility to get past true seeing.
In order to be effective as a high level caster you will need your casting stat maxed out. And have full caster level to get past SR. Even then the rules for casters change the most after level 13. This is when every thing you fight will have some kind of immunity or resistance. And it only gets worse as you level. When you get to 15+ 90%+ will have SR of some kind and some will have really high SR. At 18+ 90% will be immune to multiple damage types and have insane SR.
So... advice? What would you do with them/are you advocating no split-class caster is good at high levels?
Empyreal Bloodline is an alternative for the celestial bloodline. It's found at the bottom of the sorcerer page, under wildblooded. Link here
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your best option with as with most casters 20 levels not prestige class no multi classing.
Arcane Bloodline : One of the best blood lines for a sorcerer. It lets you use your meta magic feats with out increasing the casting time. Along with granting a +2 to spell DC for one school at 15. This will go along way with affecting targets at this level. Bonus feats available to you are very good with only a few of them not being good for a caster. Most notable you can pick up Spell Focus as a bonus and take Greater Spell Focus as a normal feat. Improved initiative is another good bonus feat.
Fey Wildblooded Sylvan : This gives you some unique options not normal available to a sorcerer. It allows you a animal companion as a druid with out restrictions, but at -3 levels. With boon companion you can make it = to your level with one feat. If you go this route Gnome or Halfling is your best option so you can use any medium animal as a mount. Even with this you still have Fleeting Glance (sp) that works as greater invisibility. The Bonus Feats Improved Initiative, and Quicken Spell are the only ones that really stand out.
I was working on this when you replayed. :) I don't type very fast.
Empyreal Bloodline is an alternative for the celestial bloodline. It's found at the bottom of the sorcerer page, under wildblooded. Link here
What he said. Basically, it changes your casting stat to wisdom, which opens up the option of getting the monk AC bonus. And with the martial artist archetype, you don't need to be lawful either. But it does set you back 3 caster levels total: fighter1, monk1, eldritch knight 1.
To my understanding sneak attack levels don't stack, it's the sneak attack itself, so a rogue/vivesectionist shouldn't be a problem that way.
I just really, really wanted some sort of access to 9th level magic.
Where can I find info on the Empyreal bloodline? I can't find it in my books or at www.d20pfsrd.com
I was just going by this:
Although, if I were your DM, I would allow it.
Empyreal Bloodline is an alternative for the celestial bloodline. It's found at the bottom of the sorcerer page, under wildblooded. Link hereWhat he said. Basically, it changes your casting stat to wisdom, which opens up the option of getting the monk AC bonus. And with the martial artist archetype, you don't need to be lawful either. But it does set you back 3 caster levels total: fighter1, monk1, eldritch knight 1.
If you don't mind being lawful however you can instead go with the Sohei archetype and get your martial weapon proficiency that way.
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Race: Human
Class: Tattooed Sorcerer Bloodline Arcane 20
Traits:
Harrow Born (Varisian) Start with harrow deck, & +1 trait bonus to initiative.
Sorcerer Bloodline Powers:
1st: Familiar Tattoo, Bloodline Tattoos (Varisian Tattoo bonus feat).
3rd: Metamagic Adept
7th: Create Spell Tattoo
9th: Enhanced Varisian Tattoo.
15th:School Power
20th: Arcane Apotheosis
Feats:
Human bonus : Eschew Materials
Sorcerer bonus: Varisian Tattoo (Enchantment)
1st: Spell Focus (Enchantment)
3rd: Extend Spell
Th: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
7th: Varisian Tattoo (Transmutation)
9th: Intensified Spell
11th: Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
13th: Persistent Spell
13th Bonus: Improved Initiative
15th: Empower Spell
17th: Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation)
19th: Quicken Spell
19th Bonus: Still Spell
Spells:
1st: Identify, Detect Secret Doors, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Burning Disarm, Enlarge Person
2nd: Invisibility, Web, Share Language, Hideous Laughter, Scorching Ray, Darkvision
3rd: Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Haste, Slow, Force Punch
4th: Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Reduce Person Mass
5th: Overland Flight, Baleful Polymorph, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster
6th: True Seeing, Mass Suggestion, Disintegrate, Flesh To Stone,
7th: Greater Teleport, Mass Hold Person, Mass Fly, Reverse Gravity
8th: Power Word Stun, Mass Charm Monster, Irresistible Dance, Dimensional Lock
9th: Wish, Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster, Time Stop
Ill post my other suggestion later.
To my understanding sneak attack levels don't stack, it's the sneak attack itself, so a rogue/vivesectionist shouldn't be a problem that way.
I just really, really wanted some sort of access to 9th level magic.
Where can I find info on the Empyreal bloodline? I can't find it in my books or at www.d20pfsrd.com
I was just going by this:
Although, if I were your DM, I would allow it.
Oh...
Crap.
For a sorcerer arcane trickster I like the aberrant bloodline for it's reach extension. As well as: Lunge, Moonlight Stalker, Moonlight Stalker Feint, and Moonlight Stalker Mastery and Great Feint.
Shatter Defenses isn't a bad direction either.
The powerhouse summoner does get to summon 3 Nalfeshnee or Glabrezu per summoning spell. I'd assume that's still viable at high levels, right?
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The powerhouse summoner does get to summon 3 Nalfeshnee or Glabrezu per summoning spell. I'd assume that's still viable at high levels, right?
Works well if you don't take in to account you will be level 17. When you can first cast this spell. At this point you are comparing CR13/14 to CR 17+. They are both huge 15'X15' spacing and your not inside. So if your fighting low CR monsters for your level.
Lets look at some even lower level VS spell level of what you can summon.
Level 2 spell caster level 4 summons CR 1. When your fighting CR 4.
Level 3 spell caster level 6 summons CR 2. When your fighting CR 6.
Level 4 spell caster level 8 summons CR 3. When your fighting CR 8.
Level 5 spell caster level 10 summons CR 5-6. When your fighting CR 10.
Level 9 spell caster level 17 summons CR 13-14. When your fighting CR 17.
Honestly for powerhouse sorcerer I wouldnt multi class. One suggestion, if you ever want to do crossblooded, I really recommend Human for favored class bonus.
Spell Powerhouse - Human Arcane (potentially Sage for different flavor)
Damage - Human Crossblooded Draconic/Elemental
Enchanter - (race) Fey(Sylvan) or Human Cross Fey/Serpentine
Summoner - Abyssal or Celestial (which flavor you want?)Also many other options become available when perusing bloodline arcana/powers. Just depends on your campaign and character theme.
I'm a little lost in what you mean, as the powerhouse wasn't multiclassing at all, and what human favored class bonus?
I don't think summoning is that bad, as you can cast it twice and swarm something with 6 creatures of lower CR, but then again I've never tried it at higher levels.
You know what they need? A monk/arcane prestige class. Something like the Eldritch Knight, but designed for those who aren't trying to mix fighter with wizard. I may have to design that.
From the APG:
Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.
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I'm a little lost in what you mean, as the powerhouse wasn't multiclassing at all, and what human favored class bonus?
Any thing that lowers your caster level, or your spells per day. Decreases your over all effectiveness as a Sorcerer.
I don't think summoning is that bad, as you can cast it twice and swarm something with 6 creatures of lower CR, but then again I've never tried it at higher levels.
That takes more spell power then casting other type of lock down spells that are more effective then summon monster.
You know what they need? A monk/arcane prestige class. Something like the Eldritch Knight, but designed for those who aren't trying to mix fighter with wizard. I may have to design that.
That is the point if your making a caster. Taking levels of classes that do not help with casting do you 0 good. They in fact are harmful to your character. By slowing down spell progression and castings per day.