Sorcerer Bonus Spells confusion.


Rules Questions


"At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels."

That's what d20pfsrd says about bonus spells.
One of my fellow players is a fey sorcerer. When 3rd level came around for us he got his first bonus spell, entangle in this case, and our brains all melted. Entangle is a level 1 Druid/Ranger spell. So what level is it for the Sorcerer? Is it now a level 1 Sorcerer (Fey)/Ranger/Druid spell? If he scribed a scroll of it does the universe implode trying to figure out the pricing model?

There's some logical leap we made that it's treated as a 2nd level spell (but I cant for the life of me find anything substantial) and if that's the case he cant even cast it until 4th level at all (even with high charisma like say a 4th level ranger or paladin) since there's an insurmountable - (dash) over 2nd level spells until 4th level on the table.

Shed some light?

Liberty's Edge

sciphit wrote:

"At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels."

That's what d20pfsrd says about bonus spells.
One of my fellow players is a fey sorcerer. When 3rd level came around for us he got his first bonus spell, entangle in this case, and our brains all melted. Entangle is a level 1 Druid/Ranger spell. So what level is it for the Sorcerer? Is it now a level 1 Sorcerer/Ranger/Druid spell? If he scribed a scroll of it does the universe implode trying to figure out the pricing model?

There's some logical leap we made that it's treated as a 2nd level spell (but I cant for the life of me find anything substantial) and if that's the case he cant even cast it until 4th level at all (even with high charisma like say a 4th level ranger or paladin) since there's an insurmountable - (dash) over 2nd level spells until 4th level on the table.

Shed some light?

In this case Entangle counts as a 1st lvl sorcerer spell. Sorcerer bonus spells are sometimes spells that are on other spell lists. See Celestial Bloodline, as well as Fey and others.

If he made a scroll of it, a 1st lvl wizard would still need UMD to cast it as Entangle is not on the wizards spell list.

Grand Lodge

sciphit wrote:

"At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels."

That's what d20pfsrd says about bonus spells.
One of my fellow players is a fey sorcerer. When 3rd level came around for us he got his first bonus spell, entangle in this case, and our brains all melted. Entangle is a level 1 Druid/Ranger spell. So what level is it for the Sorcerer? Is it now a level 1 Sorcerer (Fey)/Ranger/Druid spell? If he scribed a scroll of it does the universe implode trying to figure out the pricing model?

There's some logical leap we made that it's treated as a 2nd level spell (but I cant for the life of me find anything substantial) and if that's the case he cant even cast it until 4th level at all (even with high charisma like say a 4th level ranger or paladin) since there's an insurmountable - (dash) over 2nd level spells until 4th level on the table.

Shed some light?

He gains it as a sorcerer spell (whether he adds it to his sorcerer spell list is a further interesting question). Actually, from p. 206, I'm not sure whether a sorcerer can know (and thus can learn) spells of a higher level than he can cast, but I'd go with Fing's interpretation.

If he happens to be multiclassed, he gains it only as an arcane spell and not as a ranger or druid spell.

If he makes a scroll of entangle, it's a 1st level arcane spell and the minimum level at which he can cast the spell is 3rd.


Well that settles that! Thank you.

Sovereign Court

Starglim wrote:
If he makes a scroll of entangle, it's a 1st level arcane spell and the minimum level at which he can cast the spell is 3rd.

The bolded part is actually incorrect. It's a first level arcane spell for him. Like any 1st level spell, the minimum level it can be scribed at is 1st. The sorcerer spells are really no different than the arcane spells that are on various cleric domain lists. For those clerics, the spell is divine. It's just that sorcerer bonus spells are gained at a later level than cleric bonus (i.e. domain) spells.

Grand Lodge

Talon Stormwarden wrote:
Starglim wrote:
If he makes a scroll of entangle, it's a 1st level arcane spell and the minimum level at which he can cast the spell is 3rd.
The bolded part is actually incorrect. It's a first level arcane spell for him. Like any 1st level spell, the minimum level it can be scribed at is 1st.

That's at least disputable.

p.460 wrote:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level.

High enough for whom to cast the stored spell? The person supplying the spell requirement as the creator. If the spell was 2nd level, it's well established that the minimum caster level for a sorcerer is 4th level. edit: removed a dodgy example. The same applies here: the sorcerer can't cast the spell (it's not even a sorcerer spell for him) until he's 3rd level.

Sovereign Court

Here's my take on it.

Let's imagine that a sorcerer takes magic missile for the 1st level spell that he gets at 7th level. Despite the fact that he didn't take it until 7th level, it's still a 1st level spell, any way you slice it. It follows all the rules of 1st level spells.

For a Fey bloodline sorcerer Entangle IS a first level spell. It's really that simple. I would even argue that a Fey sorcerer could take entangle earlier than 3rd, simply for the fact that for him it is a 1st level spell. It would be silly to do so, unless he wasn't planning to go to 3rd, but he could do it. He could use a wand of Entangle at 1st level too, because it's on his spell list. He could read an arcane scroll of entangle too, but that would be a pretty rare find.

Think about this. A cleric with the magic domain has mage's disjunction as a bonus 9th level spell. It's on his spell list, even before he gets to 17th level, with all implications that come along with that. Of course he still has to follow the domain spell rules, so he can only prepare it in his domain slot, but it's still on his list for any other purposes.

Grand Lodge

Talon Stormwarden wrote:
Let's imagine that a sorcerer takes magic missile for the 1st level spell that he gets at 7th level. Despite the fact that he didn't take it until 7th level, it's still a 1st level spell, any way you slice it. It follows all the rules of 1st level spells.

No problem there. He could have taken it, and sorcerers as a class can cast it, from 1st level.

Talon Stormwarden wrote:

For a Fey bloodline sorcerer Entangle IS a first level spell. It's really that simple. I would even argue that a Fey sorcerer could take entangle earlier than 3rd, simply for the fact that for him it is a 1st level spell. It would be silly to do so, unless he wasn't planning to go to 3rd, but he could do it. He could use a wand of Entangle at 1st level too, because it's on his spell list. He could read an arcane scroll of entangle too, but that would be a pretty rare find.

Think about this. A cleric with the magic domain has mage's disjunction as a bonus 9th level spell. It's on his spell list, even before he gets to 17th level, with all implications that come along with that. Of course he still has to follow the domain spell rules, so he can only prepare it in his domain slot, but it's still on his list for any other purposes.

There we might have to disagree. I don't see that the cleric adds mage's disjunction to his cleric spell list either before or after 17th level.

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