the real issue is that choker-arm only works if you forgo everything that's not healing, and that's bad.
Also, to bounce off that, this is wrong. A full support Chirurgeon works fine. If you consider this build:
Alchemical FamiliarWitch Dedication
Enhanced Familiar (Independent, Manual Dexterity, Valet, Extra Reagents)
First Lesson (Elemental Betrayal)
By level 6 you should be able to either grab or produce Collars of the Shifting Spider for you and your martials. So you go for Choker-Arm Mutagen when you give Energy Mutagens to your melee martials (the drawback of the Energy Mutagen is acceptable). With Elemental Betrayal, you increase martial damage by 25% roughly. You also have Electric Arc, not crazy but functional.
You can continue with Psychic Dedication and Psi Development for Amp Guidance and Glimpse Weakness (and 3 Focus Points which will soon be a thing).
Or you can choose Bard Dedication, Inspirational Performance and Lingering composition (but it takes longer to get online).
And obviously you have Poisons and Elixirs from your class. This is in my opinion one of the strongest mid-high level buffers in the game and also a capable healer.
The Choker-Arm Chirurgeon is very far from bad.
why are you even picking up Alchemical familiar if you are going witch dedication?
Witch Dedication gives you a Familiar with one less Familiar Ability. Also, there are no other level 1 Alchemist feat useful for this build.
But to piggyback on that, the build you posted only works for like 1-2 combats, given that you are a chirurgeon giving energy mutagens to your allies.
Let's say 2 martials (so 3 Mutagens and let's say 1 poison per fight as poisonable weapons are not that common) and 3 Elixirs for healing, it's 3 reagents per fight. At level 6 you last 4 fights, that should be enough to cover an average adventuring day (Alchemist is not a good class if you expect long adventuring days regularly). And you should quickly expand your number of reagents to have more room for Quick Alchemy and other Elixirs (it's a mid-high level build after all).
i also simply don't see 1d4+3 vs 1 specific target (and 1d4 vs the rest) in the whole fight being "25% increase damage".
Level 6 d10 Fighter damage: 2d10+4 (30% extra damage)
Level 7 d10 Fighter damage: 2d10+7 (25% extra damage)Level 8 d10 Fighter damage: 2d10+1d6+7 (20% extra damage)
Level 9 d10 Fighter damage: 2d10+1d6+7 (25% extra damage)
Level 10 d10 Fighter damage: 2d10+2d6+8 (21% extra damage)
Level 11 d10 Fighter damage: 2d10+2d6+8 (25% extra damage)
Level 12 d10 Fighter damage: 3d10+2d6+8 (20% extra damage)
Level 13 d10 Fighter damage: 3d10+2d6+9 (23% extra damage)
Level 15 d10 Fighter damage: 3d10+2d6+13 (20% extra damage)
Level 16 d10 Fighter damage: 3d10+3d6+13 (18% extra damage)
Level 17 d10 Fighter damage: 3d10+3d6+14 (31% extra damage)
Level 19 d10 Fighter damage: 4d10+3d6+14 (27% extra damage)
Level 20 d10 Fighter damage: 4d10+3d6+15 (27% extra damage)
Average bonus: 24% (but I've rounded down all my numbers so it's certainly closer to 25%, I've also considered only damage oriented runes so the bonus is certainly higher)
Also, extra damage against the last surviving enemy is not really interesting, what you want is to quickly get the first kills. And bosses are definitely a thing. So it's a pretty sizable chunk of damage.
Basic Witchcraft:
I missed this one, so you can take something else instead of Alchemical Familiar.
As for the damage boost, now round it out to even just 3 enemies.
The damage against the first enemy is the most important as killing it will put the encounter from Severe to Moderate. The damage against the last enemy is rather secondary.
Also, boss fights are pretty significant ones. 25% extra damage against bosses is not negligible at all, even if it's the only case where you use Elemental Betrayal.And nice of you to cherrypick the one martial that doesn't have a damage boost. Using any sort of other melee, with just like 2-3 damage boost (so rogue, inventor, ranger, thaumaturge, barbarian, invenstigator, magus, and etc etc etc)
...
Please, do the math.Level 20 d10 Fighter damage: 4d10+3d6+15 = 47.5 damage
Level 20 d6 Rogue damage (when Sneak Attacking): 4d6+5d6+3d6+6 = 48 damage
Level 20 Ranger: 4d6/4d8+3d6+13 = 37.5/41.5 damage
Level 20 Inventor: 4d12+3d6+12+0/3/6 = 48.5/51.5/54.5
Level 20 Investigator: 4d6+0d6/6d6+3d6+6 = 30.5/51.5
Only Barbarians and Maguses clearly outdamage the d10 Fighter build, most other classes are dealing similar or inferior damage.
And as I said, this Fighter is using only damaging runes (and gets them as early as possible) so it's clearly at the top of the damage per hit chart.
So, as I was saying, much closer to like 8-10% damage.
:D
Good one.
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the real issue is that choker-arm only works if you forgo everything that's not healing, and that's bad.Also, to bounce off that, this is wrong. A full support Chirurgeon works fine. If you consider this build:
Alchemical Familiar
Witch Dedication
Enhanced Familiar (Independent, Manual Dexterity, Valet, Extra Reagents)
First Lesson (Elemental Betrayal)By level 6 you should be able to either grab or produce Collars of the Shifting Spider for you and your martials. So you go for Choker-Arm Mutagen when you give Energy Mutagens to your melee martials (the drawback of the Energy Mutagen is acceptable). With Elemental Betrayal, you increase martial damage by 25% roughly. You also have Electric Arc, not crazy but functional.
You can continue with Psychic Dedication and Psi Development for Amp Guidance and Glimpse Weakness (and 3 Focus Points which will soon be a thing).
Or you can choose Bard Dedication, Inspirational Performance and Lingering composition (but it takes longer to get online).And obviously you have Poisons and Elixirs from your class. This is in my opinion one of the strongest mid-high level buffers in the game and also a capable healer.
The Choker-Arm Chirurgeon is very far from bad.
I think you’re running into an issue here where the “strongest mid-level healer” can just be replicated with a Witch with Alchemical Crafting and some downtime or with the Alchemist Dedication and still have full casting on top of that. That shouldn’t be the case for the class who’s whole niche operates around being the item guy. The items themselves are fine. The issue lies with what Alchemists are able to do with them uniquely.
Also a Chirurgeon shouldn’t need to go out of their class to be viable in combat flat-out. Hell, the Alchemist needs more familiar feats to support the homonculi meta.
I think you’re running into an issue here where the “strongest mid-level healer” can just be replicated with a Witch with Alchemical Crafting and some downtime or with the Alchemist Dedication and still have full casting on top of that.
Given an infinite amount of money and downtime everyone can become a better Alchemist than the Alchemist.
Luckily, there are charts about how much money you're supposed to get at every level and if your Witch starts siphoning the party money because "I want to be an Alchemist!" I'm pretty sure they're gonna get kicked from the party quickly.Also a Chirurgeon shouldn’t need to go out of their class to be viable in combat flat-out.
The class design unfortunately encourages that. Look at all the crazy combos involving a specific Alchemical Item. There are so many Alchemical Items and they are far less thought out than spells ending up with a lot of mini combos all around. The Alchemist is a class for the one who loves shenanigans. Ignoring that when balancing the class just means that the shenanigans-based builds will just overshadow other builds and potentially push the ceiling (in that case, the ceiling in healing).
So, as I was saying, much closer to like 8-10% damage.:D
Good one.
I answer to myself as you may feel my answer was not polite (because I expect you didn't get the joke).
If I follow your reasoning and consider that you get the bonus from Elemental Betrayal only a third of the time and take a very basic melee martial: A Greatsword Giant Barbarian, at level 20 to make things simple. The Barbarian does 4d12+3d6+18+7+6 damage = 67.5 damage. The Alchemist adds 2d6 damage 2 third of the time and 2d6+6 damage a third of the time for an average of 2d6+2 = 9 points of damage. 9 points of damage which is 13% of 67.5 damage.So I was pointing out that in your efforts to disprove this build you didn't manage to get your math correct. The bonus is far superior to 8-10% even by following your own math.
Also, as we are speaking of remastered classes, we have to consider the rules modification on refocusing. As soon as Player Core 1 will be released, this build will consistently improve melee damage dealers damage output (and by roughly 25%, we may disagree on a couple of %s but not on dozens of %s).
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I think you’re running into an issue here where the “strongest mid-level healer” can just be replicated with a Witch with Alchemical Crafting and some downtime or with the Alchemist Dedication and still have full casting on top of that.Given an infinite amount of money and downtime everyone can become a better Alchemist than the Alchemist.
Luckily, there are charts about how much money you're supposed to get at every level and if your Witch starts siphoning the party money because "I want to be an Alchemist!" I'm pretty sure they're gonna get kicked from the party quickly.
This is why I mentioned the Alchemist Archetype. But even still, a caster who wanted to focus on crafting items won't be hurting for gold since they don't have runes to worry about.
Also a Chirurgeon shouldn’t need to go out of their class to be viable in combat flat-out.The class design unfortunately encourages that. Look at all the crazy combos involving a specific Alchemical Item. There are so many Alchemical Items and they are far less thought out than spells ending up with a lot of mini combos all around. The Alchemist is a class for the one who loves shenanigans. Ignoring that when balancing the class just means that the shenanigans-based builds will just overshadow other builds and potentially push the ceiling (in that case, the ceiling in healing).
I'm not attacking you but it's starting to feel like you're getting trapped in Devil's Advocate spiral trying to defend the Chirurgeon instead of thinking up ways to make the class overall smoother. I'm advocating for the dissolution of subclasses and an overall overhaul because right now the only benefit of the Chirurgeon is being able to use crafting for Medicine checks. I don't know if that's enough to justify the imbalance of concepts within the class right now.
There are ways to be an effective Chirurgeon within the class but they're all Bomber feats and don't necessitate you being a Chirurgeon at all. It's why I think we need to scrap the idea of subclasses since they're just boxes constraining the concept.
Quick Bomber, Far Lobber, Healing Bomb, Perpetual Breadth, Sticky Bombs, and Uncanny Bombs lets you heal and damage at a safe distance. You'd just set aside a number of reagents as a healing font to use during battle. Take advantage of Quicksilver Mutagen with Numbing tonic to increase your hit bonus to contribute with bombs and a reload 0 weapon that you can also use Life Shot ammo for as a minor heal in combat. You're able to effectively damage and heal at a distance. I've built this exact build for Kingmaker and thrown in Talisman Dabbler to make free retrieval prisms to smooth out action economy at higher levels.
I agree about item shenanigans. That should be the entire point of the class otherwise you are just a walking shop. I want them to lean into that more. If it truly becomes an issues down the line then errata will handle it but I can't imagine anything an Alchemist can do right now that would be earth shattering.
This is why I mentioned the Alchemist Archetype. But even still, a caster who wanted to focus on crafting items won't be hurting for gold since they don't have runes to worry about.
The Archetype is not competitive when it comes to healing. And even the combo with the Energy Mutagen will be significantly worse.
As for gold, producing dozens of at level Alchemical Items per day costs your entire money before you even get to the second day. That's not manageable unless the GM drowns the PCs in gold.I'm not attacking you but it's starting to feel like you're getting trapped in Devil's Advocate spiral trying to defend the Chirurgeon instead of thinking up ways to make the class overall smoother. I'm advocating for the dissolution of subclasses and an overall overhaul because right now the only benefit of the Chirurgeon is being able to use crafting for Medicine checks. I don't know if that's enough to justify the imbalance of concepts within the class right now.
I won't follow you in that direction because I think the remastered Alchemist can't be much different from current Alchemist. The issue is that all items are out there in tons of books. You can hardly review them without creating big issues. So the only thing you can work on is the class itself, and that limits a lot the refactoring.
I expect the class to be slightly altered when it comes to its efficiency and mechanics. What should significantly change is its clunkyness, at least I hope they'll get rid of ridiculous things like Alchemical Alacrity, that they will find a way for the Alchemist to perform ok during long adventuring days and these kind of things.Anyway, I don't have expectations because I dislike to be disappointed.
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Please, do the math.
Level 20 d10 Fighter damage: 4d10+3d6+15 = 47.5 damage
Level 20 d6 Rogue damage (when Sneak Attacking): 4d6+5d6+3d6+6 = 48 damage
Level 20 Ranger: 4d6/4d8+3d6+13 = 37.5/41.5 damage
Level 20 Inventor: 4d12+3d6+12+0/3/6 = 48.5/51.5/54.5
Level 20 Investigator: 4d6+0d6/6d6+3d6+6 = 30.5/51.5
Only Barbarians and Maguses clearly outdamage the d10 Fighter build, most other classes are dealing similar or inferior damage.
And as I said, this Fighter is using only damaging runes (and gets them as early as possible) so it's clearly at the top of the damage per hit chart.
I don't disagree with your statement that the fighter is not that much behind in damage (and sometimes ahead) even before adding 20-30% for +2 to hit. But those numbers for some of the other classes are a bit underdone. Example for the Inventor you are missing the overdrive increases amd the offensive boost. For an extra 3+1d6 and that is just class features before looking at feats.
I don't disagree with your statement that the fighter is not that much behind in damage (and sometimes ahead) even before adding 20-30% for +2 to hit. But those numbers for some of the other classes are a bit underdone. Example for the Inventor you are missing the overdrive increases amd the offensive boost. For an extra 3+1d6 and that is just class features before looking at feats.
Yes, I realized after I could edit it that I made mistakes with the Inventor.
But overall, the 2 classes that will really outdamage the Fighter in per hit damage are the Barbarian and the Magus. The Inventor is also slightly ahead if you focus on a Str-based Inventor but the Dex-based Inventor is definitely a thing. The Rogue is if you consider a Thief/Ruffian who always have Sneak Attack (which is easy to get but not a given). For most other classes, it's really a per build discussion, with many classes focusing on lower damage (Monks, Champions, Rangers). And Swashbucklers and Investigators often make attacks without the Finisher/DaS damage bonus.Anyway, I said 25% (and gave what I consider a basic martial build to prove it) but it's obvious the "actual number" is beyond my reach. It's just an approximation. It's still way closer to the reality than 8-10%. This build is uncommon but another example of what the Alchemist can do when you look for combos (in fact, this combo can complement any Alchemist build with a bit of extra feats, reagents and actions).
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I've addressed all of your points one by one and you ignore my arguments. So let's say this conversation is pointless, your mind is made up and there's no amount of evidence that will convince you otherwise.
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Class feat or feature:
If you have zero reagents, you can spend 10 minutes and gain 1 (one) reagent. This cannot be done during daily preparations.
Better yet, instead of trying to replicate the Focus system in some ways why don't they simply just create a Feat that provides a Focus Spell that provides them with an additional Reagent as a 1-Action Focus Spell? Sure, it can be reused after a Refocus activity but... I don't see why that would/should be a problem, longevity and running out of useful things to do is something they GREATLY suffer from and isn't an issue for basically any other Class.
Have we talked about just giving them a martial chassis? I think that'd solve their issue with filling out their niche in combat fairly well.
Simple solution if the Alchemist was a martial. But that would not help the Chirurgeon and there are also support oriented Toxicologists and Mutagenists builds that would be sad.
Even if I agree that getting Master (at level 15 certainly) would be logical, getting a martial chassis would repurpose the Alchemist as a martial, something that is not entirely in line with the class currently.
If they *do* lower the level that you get the original Perpetual Infusions, I'm hoping they move it to 3rd, personally.Changes to perpetual infusions:
5th level: choose two 1st lvl items of your field.
7th level: choose two 3rd level items of your field.I'm not sure; that might be a little too strong. Having Moderate Bombs available when you pick up Sticky Bomb at 8th (if they keep it there, I dunno) would be really solid. Under the right circumstances you could outdamage a Magus, at least for a level or two. :)
15th level: choose two 11th level items of your field.This is ok.
20th level: all 1st and 3rd level items of your field that are in your formula book.This is basically worthless. I can think of maybe three L1-3 formulae I'd want to keep using at high levels, and only one of them would I want to be able to make it any time I wanted to (Lesser Skunk Bomb.) The other two are Silversheen and Cat's Eye Elixirs, and I can't see any circumstances where I'd want infinite of either one.
[20th level feat: all 11th level items of your field that are in your book]This is an interesting idea for a capstone. It would be solid, I think. Very solid. Might merge the Research Fields a bit too much... I mean, a Bomber could make infinite Greater Soothing Tonics for example, heal 50 HP in a minute, every ten minutes. Or gain any Lore with infinite Greater Cognitive Mutagens.
Furthermore the debuffs bombs innately have do not have saves, for the most part. (I'm sure there's one or two out there that do have a save) You just have to hit or critical hit the target.
You're correct by the way. The only Bombs out there with a Save for their innate Debuffs are the Skunk Bomb and the Blindpepper Bomb.
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Have we talked about just giving them a martial chassis? I think that'd solve their issue with filling out their niche in combat fairly well.Simple solution if the Alchemist was a martial. But that would not help the Chirurgeon and there are also support oriented Toxicologists and Mutagenists builds that would be sad.
Even if I agree that getting Master (at level 15 certainly) would be logical, getting a martial chassis would repurpose the Alchemist as a martial, something that is not entirely in line with the class currently.
Don't really agree. Every alchemist needs something to do in combat, and a large part of their kit is predicated on being able to make strikes. Such a change would help everyone, even if it isn't the thing you necessarily focus on. A couple builds that already perform decently might need some adjustments if Alchemists got a better chassis, but many underperforming ones would benefit greatly.
So, what you're not taking into account is Sticky Bomb. When I hit 8th level with my Bomber, and took that Feat, my Lesser Acid Flask went from 1+4 Splash + 1d6 Persistent to 1+4 Splash + (1d6+4) Persistent. So, 12 points of damage on average. (I round down whenever the number of dice are uneven.)
A Moderate Acid Flash does 1 + 4 Splash + 2d6 Persistent... also, 12 pts on average.
So, if I got Perpetual Moderate Acid Flasks at 7th, as you're proposing, at 8th I would then be doing 1 + 4 Splash + (2d6+4) Persistent. so, 16 pts Average.
Now, you may say, this is not even close to what a Precision Edge Crossbow Ace Ranger can pull off. They average 21 points per hit.
However, Persistent Damage has a way of sneaking up on you. 70% failure rates to get rid of it will do that.
So, say I hit the guy with my Moderate Sticky Acid Flask. 16 pts compared to the Ranger's 21. However, if the GM fails the flat check (and odds are, they will) I get to switch over to a different Bomb while the Acid does its work. So, say I switch over to a Moderate Sticky Alchemist's Fire. That one does 2d8 + 4 Splash + 6 Persistent. If I hit with that one, I'm doing on average 19 pts of damage, while my Acid gives me another 2d6+4 Persistent for free... so that round, I'm doing 30 pts on average, compared to the Crossbow Ace's 21.
And it can keep going...
Keep in mind that at 8th level, my Bomber has better accuracy than anything other than a Fighter or a Gunslinger. Which is why I'm not going through all the math in this conversation.
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The more I think about it the more I am convinced that Alchemist is a full martial character, centered around the Strike action, be that with bombs or poisons, under the influence of a mutagen, or “between patients”.
Maybe the Chirurgeon could get the ability to use Battle Medicine without needing a free hand so long as they are wearing their medicine kit?
The more I think about it the more I am convinced that Alchemist is a full martial character, centered around the Strike action, be that with bombs or poisons, under the influence of a mutagen, or “between patients”.
Maybe the Chirurgeon could get the ability to use Battle Medicine without needing a free hand so long as they are wearing their medicine kit?
Is that a common problem for Chirurgeon? In my experience they regularly have free hands because they are either throwing their bombs or drinking their elixirs.
Battle Medicine is not a Chirurgeon ability.
And it's mostly useless if you have a pure Chirurgeon healer. The only reasons to take it is to save on reagents at low level or to grab Doctor's Visitation as there's no Chirurgeon's Visitation.
But I expect Player Core 2 to address the reagent issue and to give a way to save on action economy for the Chirurgeon. That would make Battle Medicine completely useless for it.
I really dislike the comparison of the Alchemist with a martial. First, because it's definitely not a martial as is, it's a hybrid martial/support. Also because there are tons of martials in the game so we don't need one more. I'd prefer the Alchemist changes to keep the support oriented Alchemist builds on par with the more martial ones instead of rewriting the Alchemist as a pure martial.
I really dislike the comparison of the Alchemist with a martial. First, because it's definitely not a martial as is, it's a hybrid martial/support. Also because there are tons of martials in the game so we don't need one more. I'd prefer the Alchemist changes to keep the support oriented Alchemist builds on par with the more martial ones instead of rewriting the Alchemist as a pure martial.
I agree. The Alchemist should not be made into a martial.
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Also, I've made a simple comparison:
16+ Str Martial character making a Double Slice with 2 Dogslicers with Weapon Siphons and under Energy Mutagen + Titanic Fury Cocktail at level 13 VS Greatsword Fighter making 2 attacks = Graphs. So they are very close and it doesn't take into account that the Alchemist can poison their weapons. And of course I've considered a 16 starting Strength where a full martial chassis would give it an 18 starting Strength.
So giving the Alchemist a martial chassis would put it among the top martial damage dealers. Sure it has low defenses but all the support and utility the class brings should easily compensate for that. In my opinion, it's more than a big change, it's a complete class revision. And I feel it may be an overcompensation.
Currently, the Alchemist is quite fine in terms of power level. Its main issue is its clunkyness. Giving it more reagents at low level, reviewing the problematic feats and giving more (or better) class support to specific Research Fields should be enough for the class to be fine.
That doesn't mean ofc that you have to absolutely follow all the other martials. Being 2 levels behind (so getting master at 15) is fine, not even reaching the same spot ever though, is a big downgrade with no actual upside attached to it.
Some posters suggested that the Alchemist should have a martial chassis, which is in my opinion too much of a change. But having Master proficiency at level 15 is fine and something it should have.
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Some posters suggested that the Alchemist should have a martial chassis, which is in my opinion too much of a change. But having Master proficiency at level 15 is fine and something it should have.
I don't get that. Master at 15 would mean that the Alchemist would have martial progression, except for levels 5-6 and 13-14.
What's so special about those four particular levels that make that fine, but normal martial progression unacceptable?
I don't get that. Master at 15 would mean that the Alchemist would have martial progression, except for levels 5-6 and 13-14.
What's so special about those four particular levels that make that fine, but normal martial progression unacceptable?
Martial progression means proficiency and Weapon Specialization. So compared to having Master at level 15 you have a bonus in each and every level from 5 to 20. Sure, Weapon specialization is not as strong as an extra proficiency but it's still a sizable difference.
Also, Master at 15 is 6 levels with extra proficiency when martial chassis is 10 levels with extra proficiency. The impact is 2/3rd higher.What I show is that martial chassis is too strong, but I think Master at 15 is ok.
It's an action to activate weapon siphon. It's an action to make and drink the double brew,or two action if not. By the time he got everything set up the Greatsword has already out dps him.
No, no and no. All of these are either free actions or no actions. The only thing is to periodically drink one-hour Mutagens at level 13+, which shouldn't be much of an issue.
Clumsy 1, increase map penalty
I've spoken about survivability and you don't really make high MAP attacks with this build.