The Perpetual Infusions problem: why bombers always feel more rewarding, and why chirurgeons are terrible


Rules Discussion


I know, another discussion about the alchemist but this time I want to focus it on a specific class feature.

Perpetual Infusions and its subsequent improvements, Perpetual Potency and Perpetual Perfection, allows to create a virtually infinite amount of two specific alchemical items with Quick Alchemy, the process requires only a single action (Double Brew at level 9 and Achemical Alacrity at level 15 let you create two and three at a time respectively) but the items are quickly lost if not used immediately. The catch is that such a process is only optimal for items that can be used extremly frequently if not all the time and have an instantaneous effect. Bombs are the only option that really makes sense to be chosen for Perpetual Infusions: they're made to be thrown at the enemy immediately for instantaneous damage and debuffing and are a good source of energy damage, while antidotes and antiplagues are extremly situational and producing large amounts of them at a time makes no sense unless you have an entire army to treat, and even then the limitations of Perpetual Infusions makes crafting your strongest version of them during your daily preparations more sensible, and mutagens don't make much sense either being mass-produced if not to spam the Revivifying Mutagen feat for unlimited self-healing.

I gathered from other discussions that the bomber felt like the only research field worth choosing in spite of the class's absurd proficiency limitations and always personally thought that the chirurgeon sucked, while not sure about the mutagenist, and it turns out Perpetual Infusions allows unlimited self-healing that can probably be exploited one way or another but I doubt it would make a strong build considering the alchemist isn't that good at close combat.

It's a bit disappointing to see the effort put into the alchemist's design to make it more of a crafter than a glorified grenadier, only for lobbing an endless amount of bombs to be the most rewarding way to play it.

In other circumstances I would have probably drafted a big wish list of changes I would like to see, but here I'm out of ideas. How would you change Perpetual Infusions to make it more useful for chirurgeons and mutagenists?


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I personally find the Chirurgeon Perpetual Infusions to be the best ones. It's bad, but at least useful.


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SuperBidi wrote:
I personally find the Chirurgeon Perpetual Infusions to be the best ones. It's bad, but at least useful.

I'm really curious to know how elixirs that have a small chance of curing specific afflictions are better than an unlimited amount of bombs.


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So the advantage of the Churgeon is not that you will need an enormous number of elixirs to cure poison and disease, it's that you do not need to invest resources (whether reagents or money) on these things - you can just produce them as needed and spend the rest of your resources on other things.


I’ll actually counter the Perpetual Mutagens idea. As i’ve been thinking about it using perpetual mutagens for smaller and less important combats would be rather useful, and allow an Alchemist to only need a handful of full strength Mutagens while the rest of their supply can be anything else.

Is it better than spamming bombs constantly? Doubtfully, but still pretty good management of resources.

Chirurgeon’s Perpetuals certainly feel fairly underwhelming, but there are spells and poisons where it would be useful.

ShroudB made a list of House Rules for Alchemist, and while I disagree with a lot of them i will say, my favorite House Rule of his is, i believe regardless of Research Field, for Perpetual Infusion you just pick two potions of your choice, with the exclusion of healing potions, rather than being forced into which ones you can make.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
So the advantage of the Churgeon is not that you will need an enormous number of elixirs to cure poison and disease, it's that you do not need to invest resources (whether reagents or money) on these things - you can just produce them as needed and spend the rest of your resources on other things.

Congratulations, you sacrified unlimited ressources on elixirs you will probably need once in a blue moon and are completely useless if you have a divine or primal caster in the party. I hope it was worth it.

Silver Crusade

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FlashRebel wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So the advantage of the Churgeon is not that you will need an enormous number of elixirs to cure poison and disease, it's that you do not need to invest resources (whether reagents or money) on these things - you can just produce them as needed and spend the rest of your resources on other things.
Congratulations, you sacrified unlimited ressources on elixirs you will probably need once in a blue moon and are completely useless if you have a divine or primal caster in the party. I hope it was worth it.

They have limited spell slots.

And also might want to be something other than a buffer/healer.


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The problem I have with antidote/antiplague is that the way you use them kind of runs counter to concept of perpetual.

There's definitely some utility to be able to just give everyone antidotes/antiplagues every day, but it also feels kind of weird to me that you gain the ability to spontaneously create potions that last for six hours, which means often times only needing to drink them once a day.

Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
I’ll actually counter the Perpetual Mutagens idea. As i’ve been thinking about it using perpetual mutagens for smaller and less important combats would be rather useful, and allow an Alchemist to only need a handful of full strength Mutagens while the rest of their supply can be anything else.

How many combats are you expecting to fight in the average day? Generally my experience is that four to five mutagens are more than enough for a whole adventuring day... and now that mutagenists have flashback it's more like three to four.

That's not to say that perpetual mutagens are terrible, but they're more useful for being able to quickly throw together a cognitive or silvertongue mutagen to give someone a bonus to a skill check than being used as combat supplementals. Mutagens are too efficient for the downgrade to be worthwhile in a fight.


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FlashRebel wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
I personally find the Chirurgeon Perpetual Infusions to be the best ones. It's bad, but at least useful.
I'm really curious to know how elixirs that have a small chance of curing specific afflictions are better than an unlimited amount of bombs.

It's unlimited bombs, but it's unlimited bad bombs that arrive 6 levels too late. You need 2 actions to use them, they deal one lower die of damage and have -1 to hit (and -5 from MAP). So they have roughly 30% chance to hit and deal only 2.8 damage per action at level 7 against an average AC monster. It's so bad, it's not worth an action in my opinion. Far before, you should have found a proper weapon or cantrip to deal far more damage.

Chirurgeon ability is bad, too. But at least all the party has +1/2 against diseases and poisons. It's not excellent, but it's a constant bonus that cost nothing. So, I think it's nice.

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FlashRebel wrote:

It's a bit disappointing to see the effort put into the alchemist's design to make it more of a crafter than a glorified grenadier, only for lobbing an endless amount of bombs to be the most rewarding way to play it

In your opinion...

I have a halfling Chirurgeon as my most played PFS2 character. She is a blast to play with. In fact, the way I have built her , she does not even have a max int score (only +3) and between preparing and quick alchemy, I have not run out of bombs in a single session. Also I enjoy and have used successfully the other tool alchemy items (sunrods, and smokesticks particularly)

Have you even played a Alchemist in 2e? This sounds like theory crafting at best.

I think the exlirs of life and antidote/antiplague's are a bit more valuable then you lead on and as mentioned above, the ability to not use any resources and/or have one ready when you need em is pretty awesome. Chirurgeon's ability to use craft as medicine is also a nifty thing.


Jib916 wrote:
Chirurgeon's ability to use craft as medicine is also a nifty thing.

As written, it's not so nifty: every medicine check requires healers tools, which needs 2 hands, meaning you don't get any bonus for superior tools as you're making a craft check. Also every medicine feat, and rolls for medicine checks, requires ranks in medicine so, for instance, you can't even increase your Treat Wounds to heal more unless you raise your medicine along with your craft alchemy... Honestly, the ability is pretty bad.

Jib916 wrote:
I think the exlirs of life and antidote/antiplague's are a bit more valuable then you lead on

I don't think anyone suggested healing is bad. On antidote/antiplague's I agree with him: not super exciting with the duration as you'll only ever make your party number in them for the day for an ability that lets you make an unlimited number per day: it just end up being a +1 bonus on those save for the party for the day. That's ok but it doesn't really feel "perpetual".

Jib916 wrote:
Have you even played a Alchemist in 2e?

I kind of wonder if you have if you think "use craft as medicine" is "nifty". It's glaring issues make it pretty un-nifty.


Anyway, the Alchemist has issues, but before buffing him, I think it'd be better to address the abilities that are just not working as intended. Once the whole class will be functional, I expect it to be better already. Then, it'll be interesting to see if it needs better Perpetual Infusions or not.

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graystone wrote:
As written, it's not so nifty: every medicine check requires healers tools, which needs 2 hands, meaning you don't get any bonus for superior tools as you're making a craft check. Also every medicine feat, and rolls for medicine checks, requires ranks in medicine so, for instance, you can't even increase your Treat Wounds to heal more unless you raise your medicine along with your craft alchemy... Honestly, the ability is pretty bad.

Ahh. I do see what you are saying. After re reviewing Treat wounds I do notice you need better ranks in medicine to increase healing. ( It has been effective at lower levels , but I see what you are saying about its effectiveness as the levels get higher) My Alchemist is level 3, so it has been good so far.

Also, remember "nifty" is subjective/my opinion, what you find nifty I might find un-nifty and vise versa. :P


SuperBidi wrote:
FlashRebel wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
I personally find the Chirurgeon Perpetual Infusions to be the best ones. It's bad, but at least useful.
I'm really curious to know how elixirs that have a small chance of curing specific afflictions are better than an unlimited amount of bombs.

It's unlimited bombs, but it's unlimited bad bombs that arrive 6 levels too late. You need 2 actions to use them, they deal one lower die of damage and have -1 to hit (and -5 from MAP). So they have roughly 30% chance to hit and deal only 2.8 damage per action at level 7 against an average AC monster. It's so bad, it's not worth an action in my opinion. Far before, you should have found a proper weapon or cantrip to deal far more damage.

Chirurgeon ability is bad, too. But at least all the party has +1/2 against diseases and poisons. It's not excellent, but it's a constant bonus that cost nothing. So, I think it's nice.

Alchemist Goggles offset the loss for the perpetual bombs, since they give a +1 item bonus to bombs. Be nice if it also stacked with the higher level bombs, but it's there.

The big advantage of perpetual bombs isn't so much the die damage as it is the de-buffs available via debilitating bombs or the persistent damage from sticky bombs. Sticky is linked to splash so the die damage doesn't matter so much, and an perpetual electrical bomb with dazzling does a pretty darn good job of both limiting the target and setting up attacks for your team, assuming it hits and the target doesn't make their fort save.

Alchemists are in a weird place. I hope they'll be ok at upper levels, it seems like they could do some fun stuff, but the lower levels are a complete slog.

I think one of the biggest flaws is having their number of infused reagents so closely tied to level. Number of encounters and number of teammates who need buffs doesn't really change at higher levels as far as I know. Since all their reagents work for their upper tier objects they don't work like spell slots. You're starving for reagents at low level and with the research feat at 5 it seems like you'd be drowning in items at 10 or so. It would help if reagents were like 2x int mod + 1/4 level, or something, or have a way to recover reagents as a focus activity.


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Squiggit wrote:

The problem I have with antidote/antiplague is that the way you use them kind of runs counter to concept of perpetual.

There's definitely some utility to be able to just give everyone antidotes/antiplagues every day, but it also feels kind of weird to me that you gain the ability to spontaneously create potions that last for six hours, which means often times only needing to drink them once a day.

Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
I’ll actually counter the Perpetual Mutagens idea. As i’ve been thinking about it using perpetual mutagens for smaller and less important combats would be rather useful, and allow an Alchemist to only need a handful of full strength Mutagens while the rest of their supply can be anything else.

How many combats are you expecting to fight in the average day? Generally my experience is that four to five mutagens are more than enough for a whole adventuring day... and now that mutagenists have flashback it's more like three to four.

That's not to say that perpetual mutagens are terrible, but they're more useful for being able to quickly throw together a cognitive or silvertongue mutagen to give someone a bonus to a skill check than being used as combat supplementals. Mutagens are too efficient for the downgrade to be worthwhile in a fight.

Most of this i pretty much agree with. Though with Mutagenist’s Greater Field Discovery one might be guzzling through them quicker than expected. The idea to use Perpetual on skill Mutagens is a neat one though.

Where i disagree is that Mutagenic downsides are inefficient to their bonuses.


Aricks wrote:


The big advantage of perpetual bombs isn't so much the die damage as it is the de-buffs available via debilitating bombs or the persistent damage from sticky bombs. Sticky is linked to splash so the die damage doesn't matter so much, and an perpetual electrical bomb with dazzling does a pretty darn good job of both limiting the target and setting up attacks for your team, assuming it hits and the target doesn't make their fort save.

We are now comparing apples to oranges. You speak of 2 feats and one magic item investment. So, obviously, it gets better. But, in my opinion, it's not worth the investment, as you end up needing 2 actions to use it, and it's just slightly better than a 1-action bomb.


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Jib916 wrote:
My Alchemist is level 3, so it has been good so far.

Level 3 is when you first start to see the issue as your expanded tool kits are 3rd: someone rolling medicine can get a +1 to the roll while the alchemist doesn't gain it [they are rolling craft]. Even if they fix it so you can use alchemy tools, the alchemist would need a LAB to gain bonuses which is 6 bulk.

3rd is also when you get your first skill increase so you have to pick between better rolls [craft] or better Treat Wounds [medicine]:P it's only at 5th when you can get both and that assumes you don't want to raise something else.

At 2nd, Robust Recovery and Ward Medic become available but if you don't raise medicine first they aren't available until 6th.

So it's ok at levels 1 and 2 but it's just downhill from there.


SuperBidi wrote:
Aricks wrote:


The big advantage of perpetual bombs isn't so much the die damage as it is the de-buffs available via debilitating bombs or the persistent damage from sticky bombs. Sticky is linked to splash so the die damage doesn't matter so much, and an perpetual electrical bomb with dazzling does a pretty darn good job of both limiting the target and setting up attacks for your team, assuming it hits and the target doesn't make their fort save.
We are now comparing apples to oranges. You speak of 2 feats and one magic item investment. So, obviously, it gets better. But, in my opinion, it's not worth the investment, as you end up needing 2 actions to use it, and it's just slightly better than a 1-action bomb.

I just don't think perpetual bombs were ever meant to do damage on their own, they're a condit to use your "when you use quick alchemy to make a bomb it also does _____" abilities without burning through your reagents in one encounter or spending them making bad bombs. The feats in question are pretty much what a bomber alchemist is going to pick up anyway. Finally, alchemists don't really have alot of options weapon or action wise, and a perpetual bomb for a debuff is an alternative to a crossbow shot or cantrip, not necessarily a replacement.

That said, I would agree that perpetual bombs with no supporting feats are less useful than practically anything else out there, including crossbow peasantry or forever apprentice cantrips.


And that's why I consider the Alchemist needs first to be repaired before being buffed. The fact that Quick Alchemy is so bad and pretty much unusable before level 10+ despite being a level 1 ability has to be addressed. In my opinion, Quick Alchemy should not even cost more reagents than Advanced Alchemy. One allows you to Quick Draw bombs and give your items to other players, the other one is more versatile.


Also wouldnt mind if alchemist got 10 minute refocus type of their own to forge for a reagent, probally need other condition aswell so they wouldn't just refill up all their reagents.


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Considering I run a party where the wizard crafted antidotes and antiplagues daily *with money* for the buff... and actually turned out to be right at doing so a few times... I'm ok with free long-term protection from poison/disease.


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Ediwir wrote:
Considering I run a party where the wizard crafted antidotes and antiplagues daily *with money* for the buff... and actually turned out to be right at doing so a few times... I'm ok with free long-term protection from poison/disease.

I think the issue is that the chirurgeon's perpetual infusions give them free access to something that's an all-day-long buff anyway, so it only saves them four reagents per day (if they want to keep a 4-person party in both antidote and antiplague), and it does so at the cost of a save bonus one point lower. The bomber alchemist can, at least in theory, save a whole lot more - particularly if they focus on using their perpetual bombs as delivery vectors for debuffs rather than pure damage.


Clearly, but then you’re using your turns for suboptimal items. Which is fine, it’s just not your top potential, so you won’t use it all the time.


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Rather frustratingly at higher levels as the anti plague and anti venom grant item bonuses your armor runes won't stack.


They're always one or two points ahead, so it's always the same bonus in fact.


Honestly something like a vitality or fortification elixir that gave temp HP that lasted for a while feels like it would solve this issue to me. Almost a bit of preemptive healing for the chirurgeon.


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Uchuujin wrote:
Honestly something like a vitality or fortification elixir that gave temp HP that lasted for a while feels like it would solve this issue to me. Almost a bit of preemptive healing for the chirurgeon.

Juggernaut mutagen does that, but like the rest of the mutagens my teammates don't want them in combat or during dialog right before a fight due to the side effects, they'd rather just heal instead. I don't blame them either.

Sovereign Court

I made a few changes in those abilities for my house rules, as well as a change to Elixirs of Life. In short, the Perpetual abilities allow for the free creation of all lower level items that the Alchemist has the formulas for within the field of study, thus freeing up the limited number of Infused Reagents for higher level items in the field, as well as items from other fields. Here they are the details (the Toxicologist is a new Alchemist Field that I created that specializes in poisons.)

Perpetual Infusions: This ability allows the free creation of any of the Level 1 items on the field’s list. This includes Minor Elixir of Life for the Chirurgeon, and the Toxicologist gets Lesser antidote and any level 1 poisons that he knows.

Perpetual Potency: This ability allows the free creation of any Level 6 or lower items that he knows from the Field’s list. This includes Lesser Elixir of Life for the Chirurgeon, and Moderate antidote and up to level 6 poisons for the Toxicologist.

Perpetual Perfection: This ability allows the free creation of any Level 11 or lower items that he knows from the Field’s list. This includes Moderate Elixir of Life for the Chirurgeon, and greater antidote and up to level 11 poisons for the Toxicologist.

The unlimited creation of lower level Elixirs of life would seem to be unbalancing, so I added a change to them (explained as the difference between alchemical science-based medicines, which can be overdosed on, and magic, which cannot) I set the limit pretty high, so most of the time there should not be any worry about it, but it does prevent truly unlimited alchemical healing on any single person.:

Elixir of Life: The Minor variety heals 1d6+3 hit points and gives a +1 Item bonus. Note that unlike potions of healing, a person can only ingest a limited number of Elixirs of Life per day. Add the bonus to poison saves together and when that total reaches their Constitution score, they can no longer benefit from further Elixirs of Life until after a long rest. For example, if a person has a Constitution score of 10, their body can absorb up to 5 Moderate Elixirs of Life, or 10 Lesser or Minor ones per day.


siegfriedliner wrote:
Rather frustratingly at higher levels as the anti plague and anti venom grant item bonuses your armor runes won't stack.

Exactly, I had forgotten about this point. This makes antidotes/antiplagues crafted via Perpetual Infusions clearly not worth the sacrifice of unlimited ressources and they become completely pointless 3 levels after becoming available. Give me unlimited "bad" bombs all day, at least they aren't completely useless and can even be improved to debilitate enemies.

Unless you're in a very specific campaign with venomous creatures and dangerous diseases everywhere and barely any access to magic equipment, the chirurgeon isn't even worth it. To say nothing of its basic ability that requires training in a specific skill to do anything and adds effectively nothing to the character. And even then, a divine/primal caster will do a better job.


FlashRebel wrote:
Exactly, I had forgotten about this point. This makes antidotes/antiplagues crafted via Perpetual Infusions clearly not worth the sacrifice of unlimited ressources and they become completely pointless 3 levels after becoming available.

Your math is very questionable.

You get lesser antidote/antiplague at level 7. This gives you the bonus of greater resilient, or level 14. (It should also be noted that by the time greater resilient comes up, you'll have standard antidote/antiplague.)
You get standard antidote/antiplague at level 11. This gives you the bonus of major resilient, or level 20.
You get greater antidote/antiplague at level 17. This gives you the bonus of <nonexistent>.

Please tell me how they become pointless 3 levels after they become available.


Samurai wrote:
Perpetual Infusions: This ability allows the free creation of any of the Level 1 items on the field’s list. This includes Minor Elixir of Life for the Chirurgeon, and the Toxicologist gets Lesser antidote and any level 1 poisons that he knows.

Free unlimited out of combat healing Oo

It's a bit overpowered like that.


I could see something like Samurai's house rule working as long as it is balanced around other "free unlimited" healing sources, like Treat Wounds. So instead of just creating unlimited elixers of life for free at any time, cap it to a certain amount per hour. Like 3-4 or maybe scale it by level. You can justify it by saying that said elixers are just a bit more complicated than other alchemical items, and thus take a bit longer to produce in number.

It's still unlimited free non-magical healing, but that already exists in the game. It only needs to be balanced against other forms of healing to be valid. So balance it for time like treat wounds.


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FWIW, with Revivifying Mutagen, combined with Perpetual Infusion, Mutagenists also get free unlimited (albeit tiny) healing. Create/quaff a baby mutagen, consume it for healing, repeat as needed. Slow, but gets it done.

That would leave only the Bomber research field as having no free heals. (I'm looking at the baseline Alchemist, not the houserules mentioned above)


The Mutagenist only has personal unlimited healing. It's true it's good, but it's more limited than free healing for everyone.


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Is Paizo still working on another round or errata? I know it's safe to assume there's always something in the works, but I'd imagine a lot of resources are necessarily devoted to things like the Advanced Player's Guide right now. Has there been any talk about more errata/FAQs any time soon?


Ah, I see your point; I was overlooking the obvious external application for Chirurgeons. :)


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Brew Bird wrote:
Is Paizo still working on another round or errata? I know it's safe to assume there's always something in the works, but I'd imagine a lot of resources are necessarily devoted to things like the Advanced Player's Guide right now. Has there been any talk about more errata/FAQs any time soon?

Mark confirmed that more errata is in the works in another thread. I don't know what all will be addressed though.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Samurai wrote:
Perpetual Infusions: This ability allows the free creation of any of the Level 1 items on the field’s list. This includes Minor Elixir of Life for the Chirurgeon, and the Toxicologist gets Lesser antidote and any level 1 poisons that he knows.

Free unlimited out of combat healing Oo

It's a bit overpowered like that.

Can't multiple characters already do this? Paladins for example, or Treat Wounds (though it has some limitations). Think PF2 already made the stride that "full health for most fights" is expected.


Think reason elixir of life wasnt a perpetual infusion because alchemist could heal everyone in seconds with it. They litteraly be most powerful out of combat healer then with unlimited heals.


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ChibiNyan wrote:
Can't multiple characters already do this? Paladins for example, or Treat Wounds (though it has some limitations). Think PF2 already made the stride that "full health for most fights" is expected.

The "10 minutes per healing cycle" mechanic builds in an inherent sort of tension that will make "don't be at full HP" sometimes an attractive decision (e.g. you're racing against the clock, or this is a dangerous area).

If you can heal people to full in a matter of a few rounds, that changes all of that- you can even heal people up before their 10 minute buffs expire.


Here's an idea: in addition to the free antidotes and antiplague, let the chirurgeon brew up and apply an appropriate-leveled elixir of life as part of Treating Wounds. This gives them some extra healing oomph, but without becoming the PF2 incarnation of the wand of cure light wounds.

Also, let them use Crafting to qualify for any applied uses of Medicine, including skill feats (but perhaps not Recall Knowledge) and higher-proficiency uses of Treat Wounds. But that's just common sense.

Come to think of it, since they're limited to Treat Wounds time, perhaps just giving them a free elixir of life of whatever they can mix up normally wouldn't be broken. Let's do some math. I'm going to assume starting with Int 18, buffing it at every opportunity, and prioritizing Crafting when improving skills, and that you'll get a crafter's eyepiece at 3rd level and the greater version at 11th (as far as I can tell, other items specifically give a bonus to Crafting checks to craft items, which this is not).

7th level: Master crafting (prof +13), Int 19 (+4), item +1. Total +18. I could go for the Master DC and have a 40% chance of healing 2d8+30, a 5% chance of healing 4d8+30, and a 10% chance of dealing 1d8 damage - average 17.6 points. Or I could go for the Expert DC and have a 50% chance for 2d8+10, 45% for 4d8+10, and 5% for -1d8, average 21.9. Adding 1d6 to this wouldn't do much. Adding 3d6+6 however would almost double the healing.

11th level: Master crafting (prof +17), Int 20 (+5), item +2, total +24. At this point, master-DC Treat Wounds would be 50% 2d8+30, 25% 4d8+30, and 5% -1d8, average 31.3. Adding a lesser elixir here would be an increase of about 50-60%, while a moderate would be about a doubling.

15th level: Legendary crafting (prof +23), Int 21 (+5), item +2, total +30. Master-level Treat Wounds would heal 41.1 on average, and Legendary-level would heal only about 33. Adding a moderate elixir would add 42 if you allow the "max healing" ability from level 13 to apply, or about 30 if not. A Greater elixir would be 13 or 18 more.

20th level: Legendary crafting (prof +28), Int 22 (+6), item +2, total +36. Master-level Treat Wounds heals 10% 2d8+30, and 85% 4d8+30, average 42.3. Legendary-level Treat Wounds heals 50% 2d8+50, 35% 4d8+50, and 5% -1d8, or an average of 53.1

I'm not sure where I'm going with this math, but at least it's there now. It seems that adding a free elixir of life to Treat Wounds is hard to balance, because they scale significantly faster than Treat Wounds does

Sovereign Court

SuperBidi wrote:
Samurai wrote:
Perpetual Infusions: This ability allows the free creation of any of the Level 1 items on the field’s list. This includes Minor Elixir of Life for the Chirurgeon, and the Toxicologist gets Lesser antidote and any level 1 poisons that he knows.

Free unlimited out of combat healing Oo

It's a bit overpowered like that.

It's not unlimited. Did you read my changes to Elixirs of Life? In the same way you can't take too many pain killers without hurting yourself, there is now a toxicity point at which they stop working for a person. Add together the number of Item bonuses against poison and disease for all the elixirs of life consumed in 1 day. When that amount reaches the character's Constitution score, the character become immune to elixirs until they finish a long rest. I am waiting to hear if people think that is enough or there should be a longer time or harsher penalty for effectively O.D.ing on pain killers/drug concoctions.

Sovereign Court

How about this idea: The level 1 items are created with Quick Alchemy (1 action), but the level 6 items take 1 minute each, and the level 11 items take 10 minutes each. So you can create as many as you want resource-wise, it just takes a bit of time. So while the other characters are doing their Daily Preparations for about 1 hour each, the 17th level Alchemist could create 6 level 11 item, or 5 level 11's and 10 level 6 items. They are then stocked up for most of the day, and if they run low the party can rest for 10 minutes or an hour and he could create more.


The chirurgeon one is okayish if you use it to it's full power:
Those things having a 6 hour effect mean your full group has to just take one of each every 6 hours to have a permanent +2 to +4 to fort saves against poison and illness.
Granted those are not the most common reasons for fort save but that's something.

On the other hand, the mutagen one is situationally extremely powerful:

Indeed with revivifying mutagen you can basically fully heal in a few minutes which is very nice.
And second, the power of this if you have a small army and preparation time with you is ludicrous. Every single soldier can be under let's say a juggernaught mutagen which will be incredibly powerful except against AoE will targeting abilities/spells.
But that's more of a NPC thing.

But I agree that the free bombs are by far the best ones. They play the role of cantrips for you allowing you to do good damages without using your precious bombs against lesser enemies.

You can argue the mutagen one allow that too but it's not the same because you very rarely lack mutagens. You end up making those in batch of 3 and have a free one with the errata. Add to that that at some point they last one hour allowing you to keep them for multiple fights, the only real use of extra mutagens is abusing revivifying mutagen. And the heal is too low to use it in fight efficiently so it's an out of combat trick (the heal is lower than the damage of a single attack at that level and you need one action to use it and one other to drink an other mutagen).


Keep in mind something about Revivifying Mutagen though... the healing is truly anemic.

Revivifying Mutagen wrote:
While under the effect of a mutagen, you can metabolize that mutagen’s power to heal yourself. This uses a single action, which has the concentrate and manipulate traits. Once the action is complete, you regain 1d6 Hit Points for every 2 item levels of the mutagen (minimum 1d6), but the mutagen’s duration immediately ends, even if you are under the effect of Persistent Mutagen.

Mutagens currently come as the following item levels:

Level 1 (Lesser) - would heal 1d6
Level 3 (Moderate) - would heal 1d6
Level 11 (Greater) - would heal 5d6
Level 17 (Major) - would heal 8d6

So you can't heal more than 1d6 until you reach Level 11 and then only if you are consuming your then highest level mutagen.

But we're talking about how to pair this with Perpetual Infusion and the Mutagenist field discoveries. For the Mutagenist field discovery, the Greater mutagen cannot be created for free until level 17.

That means you can't actually use the Perpetual Infusion/Revivifying Mutagen combo to heal more than 1d6 per round (i.e. Perpetual Infusion a free mutagen, quaff the mutagen, consume via Revivifying Mutagen) until level 17, when you can create the Level 11 (Greater) version for free, at which point you can begin to heal yourself for 5d6 per round until level 20.


Quintessentially Me wrote:
Keep in mind something about Revivifying Mutagen though... the healing is truly anemic.

Compared to what? In 10 min medicine [treat wounds] at it's highest DC heals 2d6 [4d6 on crit] + 50 hp while in those same ten minutes revivifying at it's LOWEST heals 100d6. So 350 average healing vs 57-64 average healing [ignoring failures] seems the opposite of anemic.


graystone wrote:
Quintessentially Me wrote:
Keep in mind something about Revivifying Mutagen though... the healing is truly anemic.
Compared to what? In 10 min medicine [treat wounds] at it's highest DC heals 2d6 [4d6 on crit] + 50 hp while in those same ten minutes revivifying at it's LOWEST heals 100d6. So 350 average healing vs 57-64 average healing [ignoring failures] seems the opposite of anemic.

Fair point... mentally I was conflating in-combat healing vs out-of-combat healing. For out-of-combat healing, the throughput as a resource-free self-heal seems solid. I'm spending too much time theorizing and not enough actually playing.

The Exchange

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I'm thinking a temp hp item for Perpetual Infusions would go a long way to solving the Chrigugeon's issues. Maybe with a minute or 10 minute long duration and some feats similar to the bomber feats that allow you to add item bonuses to saves and the like? Of course their Treat Wounds issue needs to be fixed too.

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