SuperBidi wrote:
I think you’re running into an issue here where the “strongest mid-level healer” can just be replicated with a Witch with Alchemical Crafting and some downtime or with the Alchemist Dedication and still have full casting on top of that. That shouldn’t be the case for the class who’s whole niche operates around being the item guy. The items themselves are fine. The issue lies with what Alchemists are able to do with them uniquely. Also a Chirurgeon shouldn’t need to go out of their class to be viable in combat flat-out. Hell, the Alchemist needs more familiar feats to support the homonculi meta.
I came up with a whole slew of feats and features last night, trying to lean into the Alchemist straddling the line between martial and caster. I'm not 100% on what level the feats should land but I think the features make sense. Transmute Reagents lets you essentially refocus your reagent pool to really take advantage of Quick Alchemy. Polypurpose Panacea turns everyone into pseudo bombers and fixes some of the harsher action economy issues for healing focused Alchemists. (Quick Bomber would stay a feat for people who want to focus on bombs) Signature Items roughly follows Signature Spell progression and reduces Quick Alchemy costs. Alchemical Discoveries let you innovate your class daily produce unique effects. Quote:
Squiggit wrote: While there are definitely some baseline improvements to the chassis I'd like to see, dismissing items out of hand seems off base given the nature of the class. It's like saying sorcerers suck if you never cast spells. I wasn't dismissing items completely, just saying Alchemists shouldn't need specific items to be functional. It just feels weird that a Chirurgeon needs noodle arms at all times to be a good healer.
SuperBidi wrote:
Relying on a specific mutagen and an archetype to be baseline functional both feel bad. It’s already bad enough a bomber needs Quicksilver to reliably hit. The Chirurgeon shouldn’t be stuck being a Monty Python character to stay a competitive healer. Also no other healer has to sacrifice their damage capability to heal. We need to focus on more item agnostic improvements that increase playability within the class itself and makes each path unique. That or just eliminate the subclasses completely and just let the player pick what items they can make more of at every odd level. Edit: Now that I think more about it, it might just be easier to go the Fighter route and have no subclasses. Let players pick their 2 Field Discovery items at odd levels like casters getting new spells and then just base the feats around modifying existing items, improving their effects, or altering them in unique ways.
I'll admit I'm not great at class design but ever since the Inventor came out I've been thinking adding a 10-minute exploration activity to the Alchemist similar to their Overdrive mechanic that supplies reagents on a success would go a long way to giving them more lasting power and making Quick Alchemy more attractive. This would be a great excuse to give them auto-scaling Crafting as well. Quote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
We have a fighter with a hammer and shield with spikes and a monk who utilizes tiger stance. Normally I’ll poison their weapons with my perpetual Giant Centipede poison during daily preparations to take advantage of the Pinpoint Poisoner feat. The frequency of their effectiveness varies but when it works it’s great. Especially for those sweet moments where the monk flurries and the monster fails both, pushing the poison to stage 2. I typically use them to help me figure out which monsters are immune so I don’t waste my infused poisons and to help set up one of my bigger poisons.
KrispyXIV wrote:
Judging by the sidebar for the Angel Eidolon getting Summon Animal, I'm guessing that could be the plan. Personally, I'd love that as I liked using Summon Monster more than my Eidolon in 1e. Something like a 2 action focus power and access to the Conjuration Wizard's Augment Summoning as a cantrip would be great.
I'm no master character builder but I've been thinking taking Dragon Disciple and focusing on Intimidate could help quite a bit. You get Scales of the Dragon to increase your low ac and let you start with a 16 in Strength and then can take Dragon Disciple's Dragon Claws to increase your damage to 1d6. And since you're a charisma caster, you can Demoralize like no other.
Squiggit wrote:
They do seem to be working on mitigating that with the Familiar Master archetype, which will also have specialized mechanics even distinct from the Witch so anyone looking to get one of these souped up familiars without multiclassing with the Witch will get their chance.
Haste is definitely a must for a Universalist Wizard who wants together the most out of Bond Conversion. Being able to burn those three actions to cast free spells and still have an action to move means you can wreak some havoc on the battlefield if you've used your spells intelligently throughout the day.
I feel like a lot of the griping about Incapacitation spells comes down to misreading of the trait. It only kicks in when you're facing enemies more than double the level of the spell and it just slides a save up by one degree. It isn't an automatic critical success and majority of the 24 incapacitation spells have an effect on a success. Hell, in 1e you wouldn't even be casting some of these spells after a certain level without applying a bunch of debuffs because the dc would be too low. At least now you can Color Spray till your heart's content.
Not to turn this into another Martials vs Casters thread but after taking a step back, I think I can begin to understand why spellcasting takes as many actions as they do. Casters get the ability from level 1 up to target multiple enemies and/or apply heavy conditions. This isn't something Martials can do for one action without a crit apart from Rogues with Debilitating strike. If they tried to scale them back to make them single action, they'd have to be weaker than Focus Spells, maybe even weaker than existing cantrips to maintain balance. There are options to exploit at higher levels, though. Aside from Bards, each of the other casters can get a 1 action damaging focus spell and Magic Missile is on the Occult and Arcane lists.
I'm thinking a temp hp item for Perpetual Infusions would go a long way to solving the Chrigugeon's issues. Maybe with a minute or 10 minute long duration and some feats similar to the bomber feats that allow you to add item bonuses to saves and the like? Of course their Treat Wounds issue needs to be fixed too.
So this idea came to me in one of the many threads on Alchemist and their issues and I'm not quite sure how to word it but I thought an interesting facsimile of focus spells for an Alchemist would be the ability to transmute natural resources or found alchemical items into other alchemical items. I definitely need some help with the actual mechanics and balance of it but I thought something like this would be nice to give the Alchemist something to do and give the party something to do with whatever items they've acquired that aren't level appropriate anymore. Transmute
Squiggit wrote:
I meant to say natural resources too but I do think it's pretty flavorful overall and would give Alchemists something to do during everyone else's 10 minute break.
One thing I would bring up is the actual cost of Shield Block. When enemies get strong enough to destroy that shield, a Rogue using Nimble Dodge will be able to keep that reactive bonus. It also seems like Nimble Dodge is a great boon to Rogues using hit and run tactics where an enemy will only have one good action to attack you with.
I don't know how complicated this would be but I think I'd like to see Patrons providing different riders to spells based on the lessons you selected. Similar to Sorcerer bloodline riders but something you could select daily with your spell preparation. Something like "Baba Yaga's method of cursing rends the flesh as well as the soul. While focused on her Lesson of Curses, you can tweak your Necromancy spells to deal negative energy damage equal to the level of the spell."
This is a great assessment. One thing I'd like to bring up is something you mentioned pretty consistently with the Witch's action cost compared to other casters. All of the Witch focus spells cost 2+ actions and a focus point on top of carrying the 1/day clause that doesn't really kick in till level 4 when you can get another focus spell. Comparatively, other casters get one action cantrips or focus spells and in some cases the even get reaction focus spells. I feel like their readjusting needs to take that into account. They're also all sustained compared to some focus spells that have minute long durations. I also think this would've been the perfect time to use the Incapacitation trait on Evil Eye, Curse of Death, and Ice Tomb.
Xenocrat wrote:
I'm not saying it's not useful but in its current state, a Hag Blooded sorcerer can replicate a similar effect with Jealous Hex for 1 action that doesn't need to be sustained, can be recast on the same target if you have more than 1 focus point, and thanks to their recharge mechanic can be freely done every 10 minutes.
Dubious Scholar wrote:
In terms of balance, I think I'd like Accursed Hex/Hex Vulnerability to be a level 6 focus power or metamagic. It would come online right when Bards get Dirge of Doom which feels about equal in power. I can also see Split Hex or Spell Hex as focus spells or metamagic.
Xenocrat wrote:
Their hexes also have to be sustained though so it's not too different from what the Bard is doing with recasting their cantrips. It's even slightly worse since Bards have area effects and a no save debuff at that, all of which only take one action to use. The stacking part of hexes isn't even that big of an issue since they can only be used 1/day per target and you can only sustain them for a minute so they won't be lasting through encounters.
+1 for the debuffing Bard idea. I was really hoping for cantrip hexes. You can even maintain the 1/day restriction that way. I would rather keep that restriction with a cantrip and have Hex Vulnerability as a Focus spell that allows you to bypass that restriction. You've got the Bard model right there. Just flip the bonuses for penalties and make the more powerful stuff into focus spells.
I'm really loving the look of these classes. I had no interest in the Investigator but now I have an overwhelming desire to play batman. I like the Witch but I was hoping more for cantrip hexes rather than focus spells. I think a nice compromise might be if the Witch had the same free refocus ability of the Sorcerer. Something like the familiar's status as a conduit of magic allows a Witch to recharge their focus pool without effort.
After reading the encounter building section of the rulebook and reluctantly flipping through the first book of Age of Ashes (since i haven't played yet and want to avoid spoilers), this seems like an issue that only exists when you look at it in a vacuum. The book gives rules that assume a standard Boss Battle will be against a creature 2 levels higher than the player, not 3 so Incapacitation effects will only be felt in end of chapter/book boss battles. Creatures 3-4 levels higher than the players are explicitly called out as Severe and Extreme threats that challenge a player's tactics and resources so they're not going to be the average enemy you face. EDIT: And a further point on that, on level and +/- 1 level enemies are the standard and moderate threats you'll be facing. The advancement track of Hellknight Hill and the monsters encountered in each section confirm this.
Temperans wrote: Lessens it by a lot, remember 1 save higher is effectively +10 and every point matters; especially when there are so few ways to increase save DC. But yes, there is a 5% chance of rolling a 1. There are fewer ways to increase save DC but a multitude of ways to debuff an enemy's saves. A well timed Demoralize can make them crit fail on a 3-1 and that's a no resource one, action effect you can use on any enemy you're casting on or something you can ask an ally to do. But even beyond that, there are powerful spells at level 1 without the Incapacitation trait that you can be using instead. You just have to get out of the 1e mindset of these insta-win spells. And once again, there isn't a proliferation of spells with the Incapacitation trait in the book and the ones that are there all have an effect on a Success. I get people aren't used to the 4 degrees of success yet but to call it terrible is just disingenuous when in 1e that spell would've just been a straight up waste of a turn if the enemies made their saves. Now at least there will be some effect.
Have wizards not always leaned on scrolls or other spell books to add more than their granted spells to their list? This isn't really a change from 1e. The only real difference is now you'd Scribe that scroll of lightning bolt into your book and then make a new one since you can use it without a chance of the enemy automatically making the save. I don't get the talk of it being an expensive option since melee fighters aren't complaining about having to spend so much money on weapon upgrades. Since there are no stat boosting items, scrolls and wands will be a prime purchase for casters till they can afford staves and even then they'll still want to have some scrolls of not oft used spells. Also this system is a bit more built around the concept of character downtime so you will get the chance to make batches of scrolls and if you have enough extra time then you can make them cheaper than you would purchase them for. Even if you don't get the downtime they're a common loot item.
You could get away with an Elf Wizard with the Elven Weapon feats for a Shortbow and Bespell Weapon. You won't have as much mileage with your magic arrows due to the reduced number of slots and Bespell Weapon only activating when you cast real spells but with the ability to Drain your arcane bond, you should be able to get off a few extra dies of damage. Really right now though, you're probably better off reflavoring your cantrips as magic arrows until we get more archetypes.
I think it's very well balanced for caster classes and Champions but Monks get the shortest end of the stick. You can never be a real ki based Monk because of everything running off this small pool so you're relegated to once an encounter tricks. I kind of feel like some Ki abilities should've become Cantrips. A two action Ki Strike would've been great.
I'm trying to not be all doom and gloom about the Alchemist but in its current state it just doesn't stack up to the other classes. I feel like a part of this is due to them trying to distinguish it from casters and the other part is probably due to Resonance. Back when everybody had Resonance to use their items and powers, Alchemists had a bump but when it was gutted and replaced with infinitely renewable focus powers they took a sharp fall in their staying power. Couple that with the designers having to essentially build a new "spell list" for all of their items which is a herculean task and you end up with what we have now. Also I'll never understand the decision to include an attack bonus for the bombs instead of just making the Alchemist less MAD and letting them use their key ability for attacking. It essentially makes any Ranger or Dex Fighter better at hurling bombs than an Alchemist.
MaxAstro wrote:
I do want to make one slight point. The various bombs in their Moderate version give an Item bonus to the attack roll which wouldn't even stack with the Quicksilver Mutagen. At that point the only bonus it would be giving is to the skill checks and reflex save. And if we're going up against a dragon then we would definitely be at the level where a fighter could feasibly afford a bow with a +1 potency rune which also wouldn't stack with the Quicksilver Mutagen.
After doing a bit of back and forth in a thread about Alchemists and their roles, I discovered a very weird and somewhat alarming issue with the drawback to the Quicksilver Mutagen. Quote:
The drawback causes you to take 2 x your level damage that you can't heal until after the duration of the mutagen passes. At early levels this will be negligible but very quickly it starts to trend towards 1/5th of your health and stays that way all the way up to 20th level. Take a d8 racial hit die character with a +2 modifier to constitution.
The later numbers are actually rounded up to 1/5th and they trend closely to the same with a d10 racial hit die character with a +2 to con. With this edition being so mobile it worries me that any archer taking this will be stuck going into multiple battles with this drawback and no way to end a Mutagen early. It's also oddly the only Mutagen that gives hp damage. Edit: I forgot to add in the con bonus so the numbers adjusted a bit to be a little under 1/5th hp.
SuperBidi wrote:
I agreed with you on all of these points. The research fields and perpetual abilities are my biggest disappointments with how the Alchemist is set up currently. What I would like to see is something more akin to Signature Items that the Alchemist can focus on for their Quick Alchemy and let them retrain them during downtime. Bombers could pick two types of Alchemical Bombs, Mutagenists get 2 mutagens, and then Chirurgeon get everything else. A clause excluding Elixirs of Life would be fine to disallow infinite healing. SuperBidi wrote:
As someone currently playing a poison based Alchemist in 1e I agree that in this edition they're amazing but the Alchemist gets shut out of the ability to apply them quickly. I agree that the bombs are great for debuffing and hitting vulnerable monsters. My problem isn't with the items more so the class abilities relating to them. It honestly seems like you'd get more value out of multiclassing into Alchemist than being an Alchemist. Also, I'm just really not a big fan of Mutagens in this edition overall. Yes a +1 is really great for a ranged fighter but that -2 to Fortitude and 2 x level hp damage that can't be healed for a minute is pretty major. That'll always be about a 5th of your health gone, more or less if you're a d8 hit die race with a +2 Con modifier, same goes for a d10 race with a +2 con mod. Same for Bestial Mutagen lowering AC and Reflex saves. I don't want to be the reason somebody got critted.
SuperBidi wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree. Your research field enables the other class features that key off of specific items so it definitely seems to be the case that you're supposed to be a specific kind of Alchemist. It's true that the feats aren't class locked but your free items are supposed to synergize with the feats since you have a finite resource to use Quick Alchemy with. It's true that you'll have to dip into the other pools of items and pick up other item specific feats to stay effective but that's mostly because the Chirurgeon doesn't really have much they can do on their own aside from antitoxin and antiplague. You can't even really buff since you can't select Elixirs as your Perpetual items. Honestly, that might have been the best way to go for the Chirurgeon. Handing out Mutagens before battle feels like a bandaid to this issue but with the way the math is lined up, I'm wary of handing out a bunch of items that penalize my ally's saves. Other support characters don't have that issue. Edit: Now that I've thought about it, Chirurgeon should have totally been able to use their Perpetual features for those other Elixirs. Handing out Stone Fist, Leaper, Cheetah, or Mistform elixirs would've gone a long way to making them feel like a real support class.
SuperBidi wrote:
That's just not a great thing to say about a class with a subclass that's supposed to be dedicated to healing. As is, it seems to be dedicated to curing poisons and diseases, which oddly enough their healing item gives a bonus to as well.
It's very rough around the edges due to basically being written from scratch and then rewritten to take out Resonance so it doesn't feel quite done in comparison to the other classes. I like where they're going but the fact that you don't get a renewable resource comparable to focus powers just really sucks. Perpetual Potency would be close to this if it didn't take two actions to use. The additives are a cool idea but you can only ever apply it to one bomb since it's once a round and only applies to a single bomb. The Chirurgeon is hurt the worst though since even if you hand out your Elixirs of Life you've effectively turned your healing ability into multiple 2 action maneuvers that won't heal consistently till level 13. Even then, a healing focused Bard just one level higher can throw out a Soothing Ballad and do more healing than you could accomplish running around and using Quick Alchemy to bring up your party after an area attack goes wrong. I've said it time and again but what I hate the most is how they specified the items in your class features, effectively future proofing any new items out of the base Alchemist's Perpetual Infusions, Perpetual Potency, and Perpetual Perfection.
Breath of LifeA verbal reaction heal that let's you heal 4d8 without taking an attack of opportunity. Collective Transposition The new Dimension Door. A shorter range but with added bonus of you being able to target an enemy. Drop DeadA former mesmerist trick returns as a reaction invisibility spell that's even stronger than the mesmerist trick since it becomes greater invisibility at the next spell level. Power Word Blind/Stun/Kill 1 action spells that can follow up any big spell to finish off an enemy. They're uncommon but so worth the work it'll take to find them.
This question popped up on reddit so I'll just repost my answer. Quote:
I haven't gone through everyone but here's a few I liked. Overall I think the 4 degrees of success really shine in the save or suck spells of old. Before it was great to land that Dominate Person after spending a full round casting it but when they saved it really sucked cause it felt like wasted round. Now even on a save, the enemy is still getting affected in some way. And doubling damage on a critical fail is going to feel so nice, even more so if it targets an enemy's weakness. Chain Lightning: 8d12 in PF2 vs the PF1 version that would give you 11d6 when you first get it. The best part of it is you can hit as many creatures as you want without a sliding scale dc and you get the double damage chance on a crit fail. Color Spray: Gone are the fiddly hit die limitations so everyone who fails, including the boss can get blinded for a minute. Crushing Despair: Only for the flavor really but the failure effects are great. Daze: The fact that you have a cantrip that can stun on a critical is just fantastic. I wouldn't have even considered it in PF1. Dominate: The change to target and dropping it to a 6th level spell means you can control monsters as early as level 11. With the 4 degrees mean even if the enemy makes their save they're still stunned until you prepare spells again.
It seems like part of the change to those prebuff tactics is due in part to the change to the math and to the Bard. They can gain cantrips to increase attacks, defenses, and skills so they're kind of walking Heroisms. Also Mage Armor is still there and lasts all day right out of the gate, Invisibility starts out at 10 minutes which you wouldn't have even gotten till level 10, and Barkskin has been changed to DR for balance since we now add our level to AC so its value is different. Those are 3 of the routine buffs I can think of off the top of my head that I'd be applying before an encounter. You also have to remember we now have Staves that aren't ridiculously priced and recharge daily without you having to do anything unless you want to add more charges if they're a prepared caster or expend a charge and a same level spell to cast from it.
Arakasius wrote: I’ve mostly dealt with this with my group’s level 13 Paladin whose retributive strike can rip through demons easily just with the auto damage every turn from his persistent good damage. That sounds like the intent of weakness though. It gives you Paladin the chance to feel awesome in the face of enemies who're actually weak against good damage. It really gives that holy warrior feel and makes the Paladin unique in that he might not crit and throw out as many attacks as a Fighter but his damage will devastating to evil creatures when he does connect.
I think we're going to have to wait to see a real comparison of spell dcs vs monster saves and the proliferation of weaknesses to determine if that's true. I mean the level 1 classic burning hands now does 2d6 damage per level with no cap instead of 1d4 per level - maxed out at 5d4. It's probably better as a signature spell for a spontaneous caster but a wizard with some foreknowledge can prep it in the right slot.
PF2's Bard is insanely awesome thanks in part to how the new math and crit system work out. Your +1 Inspire Courage is equivalent to handing out Improved Crit to your party since every +1 counts. If you look at any of the items or buffs in the book you'll notice how low they are due to a lot of the power coming from the players and not the items/spells in this system. The fact that you can do this as one action all day, every day, and still throw out spells or swing your sword is a pretty big deal. Not only that but the Occult list has some of the best control spells and if you're a Polymath Muse you can take two feats essentially make whatever spell you want a Signature Spell if you have it in your spell book.
NemoNoName wrote:
Oh no, I do understand that but for people with a certain preferred flavor they're going for with their armor and weapon choices, I was just saying that's an easy way to try and stay relevant until errata and more options come around to fix this issue.
Squiggit wrote: It's kind of strange. PF2 lets you build a martial wizard or a spellslinging fighter really easily and has lots of really open ended, modular design choices. Then it punishes you really hard for wanting to wield different armor and weapons than the ones it deems appropriate for your class. Even though we established earlier in this thread that the different types of armor are balanced against each other so players can focus on flavor. This has got to be an oversight. Stuff like this and the lack of Spontaneous Heightening for MC seems like an after thought that seemed obvious but slipped everyone's minds. It's my hope we get some quick errata that t say weapons and Armor gotten through feats are added to your class lists. It seems a quick and simple fix. As for the Heightening issue, we'll definitely need another feat thrown in.
Malk_Content wrote: Also anyone can use their deception instead if they have the Lie To Me feat. Fittingly enough this makes barristers top choice for negotiating with the fey. I was just about to comment something like this. Since we now have options to use Deception instead of sense motive, the party's resident liar who's maxed out Deception has a higher chance at coming out on top in that check.
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