Silver Dragon

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UPDATE: So I messaged the GM. I asked if I could split up the 100k xp with the two new players. that should put the whole group at around 9th level. So issues resolved! 3 levels in a night still isn't bad!

I appreciate the help guys. Now I can summon without worry of taking over the game lol. Should be fun.

@Tacticslion - Yes we usually run an optimized group. We have been helping the new players learn the ropes as far as optimization goes. They are picking it up quick. The Bloodrager class is just crazy good from what I have seen so far. Having two melee fits my play style perfectly. I enjoy making the battle easier for the DPS to go crazy. Utility is my game. I fix anything a great axe cant.

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First thanks for all the Feedback. I will try and respond to all the replys....

1. The GM has alot of experience and He understood that the Deck could wreck things. He just wanted to show the new players something crazy. Up to this point its been a pretty gritty and dark game(we are in Ravenloft). I think he wanted to inject some humor and fun. In our experience if the Deck is introduced at a very high level the party does one of two things.... refuse to pull cards (no fun) or have the spells to make any negatives a moot point. He took the chance of wrecking his game just as we took a chance with pulling cards. We as a group wont fuss with a retcon if something is too wacky.

2. My MAIN concern is to no outshine the party. Especially the two new guys. They have been great finds for our group and I want then to continue to enjoy the game. I will be asking if I can share my xp with the group. If he wont go for that I might just not write down xp until at least the cleric catches up to me in levels.

3. @chbgraphicarts Thats a pretty fun and interesting idea. Only issue is we are in Ravenloft and have been attempting to get out. The GM has hinted that we might find a way out soon. If my level turns out to be an issue my Arcanist might just not make it out of the mist like the rest and I will re-roll something new.

4. I will certainly talk to the GM. He is a good GM. I think he will have a pretty good plan for attacking our unique situation. The cleric (the other experienced player) has already talked about helping some. He is an Item creator. We will be pooling our remaining gold to make items for the Brawler (He lost all his items). It will be the first way we help to swing the balance back. Most of the wealth will be funneled their way in items. I might get a Helm of int back and some gold for copying spells to my spell book. Otherwise most will be headed to them.

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So I had something happen a few nights ago that I have never experienced before and it presents a unique dilemma I thought the fine people on this forum could help me with it. We have two new gamers in our group. This is their first playing pathfinder and they are hooked. The DM of this particular game decided it would be fun to to let them experience a classic. He decided to pull out the Deck of Many Things(Classic version). We where all level 6. We have a Cleric, Bloodrager (New Player), Brawler (New Player), and Arcanist (Me).

Event :

So we are sitting in a bar when through a series of events an old croan presents a Deck of Many things and offers each of us a chance to draw cards from the deck. The new players each go first.

The Bloodrager chooses to draw 3 cards.
-Avoid any situation you choose
-Know the answer to your next dilemma
-gain –1 penalty on all saving throws.

Then comes the the Brawler and he picks 4 cards.
-All magic items you possess disappear permanently
-Lose 1d4+1 Intelligence (Lost 4 points)You may draw again
-Defeat the next monster you meet to gain one level
-Avoid any situation you choose
-His bonus card was Immediately gain a +2 inherent bonus to one ability score (Str).

The cleric decides to pick up 8 cards.
Change alignment instantly. (He turned NE)
Defeat the next monster you meet to gain one level.
You are granted 1d4 wishes. (He got 4) (He wished he would only draw beneficial cards)
Gain the service of a 4th-level fighter.
Immediately gain a +2 inherent bonus to one ability score
Gain the service of a 4th-level fighter.
Gain a major magic weapon.
Gain a +6 bonus on Diplomacy checks plus a small castle

Im up and I choose to draw 7 cards
Know the answer to your next dilemma.
Gain beneficial medium wondrous item and 50,000 XP. (glove of storing)
Gain a +6 bonus on Diplomacy checks plus a small castle.
Gain beneficial medium wondrous item and 50,000 XP. (cloak of resistance +4)
Defeat dread wraith or be forever destroyed.

Everyone joined in the fight and we fought 4 wraiths. The cleric used 2 wishes to cast Sunburst and we finished off the 4 Dread wraiths. (The DM awarded us 25k xp each for defeating 4 CR13 creatures).
At this point we paused to laugh a bit. The DM discovered the new Hallow Deck of Many things and asked me if I would like to draw my remaining cards from that deck. I said sure why not. Here where my remaining card draws...

Choose between most valuable item(Helm of Int) and a major ally(Cleric). I picked the Cleric
The character gains a +2 bonus to two ability scores of his choice (I picked Cha and Wis)

When all the dust cleared I had gained 125,000 xp that night and went from level 6 to 11. The Bloodrager leveled to 7, the Brawler to 8, and the Cleric to 9. So I am now 4 levels ahead of our lowest party member and Im not sure how to handle it.

I am playing an Occultist/School Savant (Conj) Arcanist (The DM allowed the archetypes to stack). I'm at about 1/3 WBL. I pretty much have no gear other then the two magic items from the Deck of many things. My feats are mainly centered on summoning and conjuration. Exploits are Consume Magic Items, Metamagic Know, and Greater Meta Know. I mainly play the Controller/Buff role. I usually start the fight with Haste, followed by summons and spells like the create pit line to control the battlefield and make it easier for the party to do what they do best. I have yet to personally deal a point of damage lol. But its been effective (the dm has branded me the Pit Master haha).

Now for my issue. Being at the level I am, I worry the DM will compensate with higher level encounters and I might have to take a more direct hand in combat. I also worry that my summons will outshine the lower level melee considering I can now use Summon Monster VI. How would you handle the disparity? How can I make sure I don't outshine the rest of the group?

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Witches dont get Survival. The hermit class. We always joke thats why they are rare. Most of them die out in the wilderness of starvation.

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Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Even though may be spending their time in their villages "growing up" they are becoming accomplished in music, art, combat... etc.

Except they dont get any extra skill points or bonuses to music, art, ect. Did they just forget 100 years worth of experience when they set out to find a job (class).

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You actually dont need to take any Swashbuckler to make it work. Just go straight Magus. At first level you gain Weapon prof with one exotic weapon and Weapon Focus with your chosen weapon. With your first level feat take the following.

Slashing Grace (Combat)
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Take the following two Arcana from the ACG...

Flamboyant Arcana (Ex) — Gain the derring-do and opportune parry and riposte swashbuckler deeds.

Arcane Deed (Ex)(requires Flamboyant arcana) - Gain a swashbuckler deed. The deed must be able to be used by a swashbuckler of your magus level. You can use that deed by spending points from your arcane pool as the panache points required for that deed.

You can take Extra Arcana as your 3rd level feat for two Arcana at 3rd. that means you can pick up Flamboyant Arcana and Arcane Deed (Precise Strike). With one Arcana and one feat you have Derring-do, opportune parry, riposte, and Precise strike. Swashbuckler in a box. As long as he has one Arcane Point left in reserve you can deal your Magus level in damage. Thats pretty sick.

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Not really.

You basically give up your 1st and 7th Exploit for the ability to cast summon monster as a standard action (plus the move action to sack the spell) and the 1 minute per caster level. Because it cost 1 point per spell level its too expensive to use your normal pool. You will have to sack the spell slot you could have used to just cast the spell in the first place. So you get for 2 exploits...

1 min/CL summon monster as a standard action when you sack a spell(same as a cleric sacking spells for heals)
You gain the Cleric Planar spells (meh)

While this is strong its at the cost of 1/5 of your exploits. As an arcanist you have less spells to begin with. Also... Because you get a new level of Summon Monster at every odd level but dont gain that level of spell casting till your next even level your having to sack several spells or you loose one of your normal pool each summons. Compare this too a Master Summoner. He has 5 + Cha mod in summons in addition to his normal casting.

9th level casting vs 6th level casting, but if you want to churn out the summoning power of a Summoner your not going to do alot of casting. Not to mention you can only have one at a time while the Master Summoner can flood the field.

Its a toss up really. A strong Archetype but it doesn't really replace the appeal of a Summoner imo.

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So I tried to place all the feats as I would probably take them. Here are a few things I noticed...

1. You really dont start rolling until Level 5 when you get Dex to Damage and Crossbow Mastery. I went Light Crossbow with Two weapon Fighting.
2. You dont need Improved Precise shot with Signature Deed (Shooter's Resolve) doing the same thing.
3. Shooting two Light Crossbows is a Free Action at 5th level, and with a Glove of storing by 7th level your set for Two weapon Fighting. At 11th level it becomes "no action".... whatever that means. Not sure if you even need the glove at that point if its not an action to reload.
4. You can take Improved Crit with one of your free feats but honestly I would just get the Keen enchant at a much earlier level. Sig Deed (Vigilant Loading) is an option, but you can always just step back 5 feet or wait for the "No action required" at 11th level.

H: Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow)
1: Point-blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
4: Rapid Shot
5: Crossbow Mastery
7: Two Weapon Fighting
8: Cluster Shots
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
12: Signature Deed (Sharp Shoot or Shooter's Resolve)
13: Deadly Aim
15: Signature Deed (Sharp Shoot or Shooter's Resolve)
16: Free Feat
17: Free Feat
19: Free Feat
20: Free Feat

1d8 + Dex on a 19-20/X3 is pretty sick. At 20th with a 20 Starting Dex, you could potentially max it out at a 36 dex or so. With +5 Keen Crossbows thats...

+38 to hit
-2 Rapid Shot
-4 from Two weapon Fighting
-6 from Deadly Aim

26/26/26/21/21/16/16/11 (Touch AC within 80ft )
1d8 + 30 (13 Dex + 12 Deadly Aim + +5 Weapon) + weapon enchants.

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You need Craft Arms and Armor to add Armor enhancements to Bracers of Armor. The Item is a wonderous Item, but the enhancements fall under Craft Arms and Armor.

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Anzyr wrote:

I like games where players who invest in Charisma and social skills get screwed for not being charismatic or talented in social skill in real life. Yay, my way is the most fun because people who use the game rules don't know how to play cause its a RP not a G. There may be real issues but I don't care because I gloss over them in my campaign anyway by punishing people who want roleplay suave character, despite not being so in real life.

Because that's what your argument is. And that is a bad argument. But hey if you enjoy that kind of game well more power to you.

Im sorry... at what point did I say that investing in social skills and Cha would do nothing for that person? At what point did I say that all social situations should be hand waved and up to the person's actual ability to communicate?

The OP said the fighter and Monk didnt feel they could CONTRIBUTE to out of combat situations. Not take them over or be the face... but actually make a difference. My respose was simply this... Anyone with well developed backstory and a DM who wants to get everyone envolved will be fine. Will they be making all the social roles? No. But can they contribute to the story and the conversation... sure. Can they gather information by actually talking to people... yes. Will they get as much info as the guy with a maxed out GatherInfo skill. No... but they can still figure stuff out and add to the group. Can the DM incorporate the backstory of any character into the plot and make that player fill invested. Absolutely.

My favorite character was a low INT Barbarian(3.5 before the buffs). He didnt have a ton of social skills, but I RP'ed his low INT and had a blast with him. I never felt like I couldn't contribute even though I lacked a huge pool of skills or earth altering spells and abilities. I played him from 1st to 26th level. He along with 2 other long lasting characters became the focal point of the story... A Barbarian, a Fighter and a Monk actually now that I think about it.

I have also seen Rogues/Bards/Wizards with a crap ton of skills/spells that could contribute outside of combat, but they sat in the corner playing words with friends until the combat started. I never said that Fighters/Monks had the same advatages that other classes have when it comes to social situations... and honestly if they wanted to be a face or the social guru... then they should look at another class. But if all the want is to be a part of the story when not in combat... that is easly solved by a little creative thinking.

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Tholomyes wrote:
Dragonamedrake wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
My point was that Fighter is always going to be worse option to perform out of combat abilities. *Any* class can do this better.
I must be confused. When did Pathfinder add a "Roleplaying" stat? Do fighters dump RP to raise STR now?
It's a good thing there's no skill that you'd have to roll, like... I don't know, "Diplomacy" or "Bluff" or anything, that mechanically adjudicates social situations.

And If I was in a game that resolved all social situations with a skill role I think I would fall asleep. Those skills are all well and good but if Your DM (or you) require a skill role to get anything done in a social situation then you are missing out on half the fun of a Pen and Paper RPG. Are there mechanical issues with Fighter or Rogue or Monk... Possibly, but thats not what the OP asked about. They dont need help in the one thing not tracked by Pathfinder... the ability to come up with an interesting character and then roleplay said character.

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Anzyr wrote:
My point was that Fighter is always going to be worse option to perform out of combat abilities. *Any* class can do this better.

I must be confused. When did Pathfinder add a "Roleplaying" stat? Do fighters dump RP to raise STR now?

I dont see the issue. To the original poster: The issue isn't the classes. Its the players playing the classes. They seem to have prepared for combat, but failed to create interesting concepts to RP when they aren't swinging a sword or kicking someone. I have had entire games revolve around the fighter(The focal point for the "out of combat" portion of the game).

Here is an Idea: Have them write a backstory. Where do they come from. Where are their families. Why did they decide to adventure. What are their goals. Do they have any enemies. What do they fear the most. Likes/Dislikes/Quirks/Issues/ect. Then incorperate that stuff into the plot. That should keep them from feeling "useless".

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zauriel56 wrote:
I guess cuz he also breaks into houses and eats the little kids' cookies?

And has enslaved an entire race of people to work in his sweat shop year round.

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I dont use Save or Die spells. I avoid using Save or Suck spells that keep a player from playing (Hold person is an example) unless its a quick combat (2-3 rounds).

Other than that I just make sure I dont use spells that would keep others from having fun. Its a kind of a broad answer but there it is. I am there to make sure the group is having fun. Throwing AOE and CC over and over would probably keep the group from having fun.

Its a delicate balance between "Challenging" and "Frustrating"

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And while you find the Current Wildshape weak, look at all the crying and nashing of teeth over the Sythesist Summoner (who in reality is weaker then a straight summoner or Master Summoner).

It has a more 3.5 flavor shifting mechanic and people scream to the high heavens... and its still a static form that cant change like 3.5 Wildshape, Syth Summoners only get 6th level casting and no animal companion. Yet you see more nerf theads over them than any other class. Can you imagine the threads if Druid still had 3.5 wildshape.

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Such a rediculous premise. Did Druids get the nerf... Yes. Wildshape was changed to conform with the new Polymorph rules in PF (It nerfed arcane casters too). They also nerfed several of the buffs and SNA.

So what...

Its still one of the best friggin classes in the game.

9`th level spell casting (Automaticly makes it better then most)
Armored Casting (With Medium Armor Prof)
A Pet that is almost another party member (Like a free Leadership feat)
Medium BAB

And on top of all that...

Wildshape - even nerfed its one of the most versitile abilities in the game. The fact you can gain almost any movement type or vision is insanely good. Add in all the other abilities you can get not to mention the great sneaking and scouting... Its still awsome.

As far as their spell list. Its a great one. They get Offensive spells that a cleric lacks, they have have the heals a wiz/sorc lack, and they still get some great utility and CC spells. If I had to rank spell list I would do so as follows... Wiz/Sorc > Witch > Druid > Cleric > Everything else.

I dont like the Wildshape change. But I certainly understand WHY they made the change. It was insane before. Now its just REALLY good. Add in the Pet, 9th Level spells, armored casting, and D8 HP and you really have no reason to complain. It has no weakness. Its good at everything.

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Theory craft answer - No. They don’t have access to some of the most game breaking spells in the game like Wizards or Clerics (Wish/Miracle).

Actual Game Play Answer - Maybe. They are a 3/4 BAB, Full Caster, with a Super Pet and Wildshape. They have it all.

Personally I don’t think they are overpowered. They are Versatile. They can fill almost any role... but not every role at once. They have to specialize. Which means they take up a role just like any other class... they just have more options as to what that role will be.

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

So, question for the crowd concerning Sacred Weapon and crits...

A. All sacred weapons have a standard crit range and multiplier (19-20/x2 or maybe 20/x3)?

B. Whenever a sacred weapon scores a crit, all of the additional damage is based off the original weapon damage?

C. It works as is (weapon damage scales, crit stats are drawn from the weapon, which means some will crit more often, but only for x2, others rarely but for x3)


1. Which is easiest to use?
2. Which is the most balanced?
3. Which is the most fun?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

1. A or C. They are both equaly easy to use. B is a hot mess.

2. C would be the most balanced.
3. A would be the most fun. It allows for more customization.

Option A: Yes the optimizers are going to use heavy crit weapons. So what. I fail to see how that's any different then any other option in Pathfinder. Optimizers will always pick the optimal choice. The only way you stop them is to give no choices... thats boring and effectivly what C does. With option C it doesn't really matter what you use as a weapon because they are all the same. You might as well use a butter knife or a broom. Come to think of it that might be quite humerous.
A choise that doesn't matter is the same as not giving someone a choise at all.

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I like the class as is. The revision is a hundred times better. A few points I would like to make.

1. I understand being MAD is a balancing factor but I think it’s a bit too much. Needing 4 of the 6 stats... I would take it down to 3. Please consider using Wisdom or CHA for all his abilities to cut down on being TOO MAD.

2. I love the Sacred Weapon feature. I hope you don’t decide to clip it because of knee jerk reactions from the boards. At most I would normalize the crit range while using the Sacred Weapon damage chart. Other than that it seems great. I love that you gain this buff for any weapon you have weapon focus with. It really gives the player a reason to pick an under used weapon for RP reasons and keeps people from picking a deity based on their favored weapon. Great decision. Over all I hope Sacred Weapon doesn't change.

3. While it is pretty heavy on the Swift Actions I think this is a balancing factor. You have to pick and choose what buff you want to use and when. I’m not sure why people are freaking out over swift action self buffing and offensive spells... there isn't a huge list of offensive spells a 6th level cleric caster can brag about. I’m ok with the number of Swift Actions as a balancing factor if that’s the intent and consider the swift action casting to be balanced as is.

4. Sacred Weapon should be increased to the same duration as Sacred Armor. I really hate that certain buffs are tied to alignment... giving people even more incentive to choose alignment based on game mechanics over Role Play seems to be a bad idea. A generic set of weapon/armor buffs would be better imo.

5. I believe his Class Skills to be too robust. I would cut Knowledge (engineering), and Survival. Possibly Handle Animal, Ride, Diplomacy, and intimidate also. 2 Skill points seems a bit low but is fine.

6. LOVE the full BAB when using the Sacred Weapon. I have seen people complain that it makes the Warpriest a full BAB in all but name but they are wrong. It doesn't affect your CMB/CMD, nor does it meet Feat prereqs. It simply gives you a bonus to hit and an extra attack. I hope the full BAB progression for Sacred Weapon doesn't change.

7. And finally the Blessings. To be honest they are the only underwhelming part of the class. A Minor and Major effect only. I would have liked to see at least 3 abilities (1, 5, 10 maybe). On top of that the actual abilities for the most part are pretty dull other than the Battle Companion abilities (which I like). Over all I think they are the only weak portion of the class and I would like to see them improved or dropped in favor of getting 1 cleric domain.

Final Note: I really like the look of this class. All of my points are minor gripes. If nothing changed from now till print this would still be my favorite class of the new ones (though Shaman is close!).

I will try and Playtest as soon as I can and see if my thoughts are still the same.

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I would suggest setting her down with the Core book on a day before the game and trying to help her create a character. By explaining the character creation process it should give her a big clue as to how complicated the game can be. This will either make her more interested or turn her off from the game entirely. When my wife wanted to join a game I jumped at the opportunity and tried to set down with her to create a character. It took all of 10 minutes before she realized how out of her element this game was and she has never asked to join a game since (That being about 10 years). If your roomate does get more interested then dont get discouraged. This can be a positive thing. One it gives you and your roomate a common hobby. Another positive point is the rarity of female gamers in pen and paper. Having a female perspective when it comes to RP and adventure can be a great boon for any game.

I wouldn't turn her away. New gamers are a good thing. Its easier then you think to run 5 players vs 4. Its when you get to 6+ players that the game starts to break down. I would try it out and see what happens.

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Calybos1 wrote:

How are you defining "success"? Does it have to do with winning combats? Hint: If your comments run along the lines of 'sub-optimal builds,' you may be taking too narrow a view of what makes a good character.

If someone comes to the boards asking about feats as the original poster suggested... he is asking for mechanical advice. Not roleplaying advice.

You dont take your car to a mechanic and expect him to give it a fresh coat of paint... he is working on engine... not making it look pretty. From what I have seen, if someone comes asking for help with their backstory or character concept they usually get good advice from an RP standpoint. But if you come asking about mechanics then why should you expect someone to post about anthing other than the mechanics.

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I agree with AD. Seems alot to do about nothing. If the author states he had no racial motivations then why cant you take him for his word. Honeslty there are too many real racial issues in this world for us to go search for hidden racial undertones that may or may not be there in a work of fiction. If you go looking for racial injustice in every single circumstance (innocent or otherwise) then it can cause people to simply roll their eyes when a real instance of racisim is brought up... because its said about everything.

I think it wouldn't have mattered what color orcs where... someone would get offended one way or the other because of some "perceived" slight. Its just silly.

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A Drow who grows up in the Underdark under his good aligned weaponmaster father, rebels against his evil society, runs away into the wilds, leaves the Underdark and befriends a motley crew of characters and proceeds to kill a 1000 orcs or something like that... Rediculous story.

System wise...

You make an effective Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger that Duel Weilds and doesn't use sneak attack. The official version was horrid.

P.S. Artemis Entreri was so much better. Build/stat wise he should have won every fight. On top of that he was a much more interesting personality and had a better story. He should have been the main character.

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Class A has massive problem X. Now I know Book Y has fixed massive problem X but lets ignore that...

Do you think Class a is broken because of Massive problem X. Again. Ignore the fact that problem X has been fixed.


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Anzyr wrote:
I misread your opening post (I was curious how the player was getting extra d8's, but it seems you are having a problem with 3d8 damage twice a round with no save? If this is overshadowing your other players you may need to go over some basic game information with them and make sure they are approximately within the wealth by level range for their level. Seriously though 27 (4.5x6) damage a round at 9th level is... minor to say the least.

Im going to have to agree with this. I dont know if it works or doesn't work. Looking at the wording it looks RAW to me. But either way... your group has serious issues if, at that level, 27 dmg in a small aoe is keeping them from contributing. The stun just helps them so that shouldn't be an issue. The melee should be eating it up. Thats just silly.

When your BARD is soaking up the combat spotlight... your other players need to start looking at their character sheets and then go skim of few online class guides.

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The whole WBL thing is kinda funny to think about in game.

Fighter Bob walks over to his Wizard Buddy Jeff.


BOB: "Hey Jeff, when we get to town can you add another magical aura to my Sword... I was thinking of making it light on fire like you did to Ranger Ted's Sword!

Jeff: "Sorry, Bob but I cant"

Bob: "Um... Why? I got the gold this adventure and Ted told me what you need to enchant it. We are going to be in town for awhile and I will even tip."

Jeff: "Yeah I know... but I cant"

Bob: ".... But I have the gold. You know how to do it. You have done it before. And we will have plenty of time. Why "cant" you"

Jeff: "Well your sword already has 5 levels of magic on it. Ted's only had 4.

Bob: "O, I see, so weapons are limited to 5 levels of magic."

Jeff: "Nope. Ten."

Bob: "O, So you cant enchant something past 5 levels of magic."

Jeff: "Yep. I can."

Bob: ".... Then what in the Nine Hells is the issue?"

Jeff: "You have 5 levels of magic on your sword."

Bob: "...But that isnt the max and you can increase it past that!"

Jeff: "Yeah but you cant wield a weapon with that much magic."

Bob: "Why?"

Jeff: "Cause.... Um.... I dont know. As the bloody invisble overloard eating cheetos over there!"

Kind of rediculous to limit someone on enchanting a single item if he wants to. He will sacrifice on other items and its his gold. I can understand using the rule when bringing in a new character above 1st level but for the guy who survived and saved... let him have his toy.

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My feel on classes.

Figher - Fine as is.
Paladin - Fine as is (As long as the DM doesn't go out his way to screw him)
Monk - Fine as is (With some decent Archtypes now)
Rogue - Fine as is
Ninja - Fine as is
Cleric - Fine as is
Wizard - Fine as is
Sorceror - Fine as is
Druid - Fine as is
Bard - Fine as is
Summoner - Fine as is (If you follow the rules of building your pet)
Witch - Fine as is
Cavalier - Fine as is
Anything I missed - Fine as is.

See a trend here. The classes are balanced (enough) for the DM to tweak what needs tweaked for their individual gaming experience. This isn't an MMO or a PVP arena game. Its a Team based pen and paper roleplay game. Everyone doesn't have to be 100% equal to everyone else. As long as every player has a role to play in battles and everyone feels engaged. This "Class A is so OP vs Class B!" nonsense is (imo) directly attributed to MMO thinking. There are no Ranked Arena matches here people... its ok. Let the DM buff what needs tweeked (Like the monk) and play the game as a team.

*Rant off*

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Things I miss from 3.5...

1. Faerun... so much
2. Eberon... less so but still
3. Ravenloft... ehhh yeah I sometimes miss it
4. Artificer - Give me my insane gnome genious back!
5. Book of Nine Swords - What melee should have been from the start.

And last but most important.

6. Prestige classes. I like them. Archtypes are fun... but as an avid Theorycrafter and Forum leach I miss the good old days of mixing and matching different prestige classes together to make cool builds. There was more flexiblity and more room to find fun concepts. But with the way PF is built, I think Prestige classes are dead. It would be almost insane to prestige out of most base classes because of the increased amount of abilities that scale with class level. In 3.5 it was pointless to stay in a base class past level 5.

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I want my Gnome Artificer back. GIVE ME!

Other than that I like some of the other ideas from posters. Divine Magus, Swashbuckler(even though I probably wont play one), Shaman, ect. But the Artificer (Or whatever they name it) would be my number one.

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DrDeth wrote:

But I suppose what you're comparing is two 20th level guys, both of whom have spent every feat and GP of WBL to boost their archery. We call this 'theory crafting" as let's face it, no one plays that way and almost no games ever get that high.

So yeah, a dedicated archer is better off going for a LB.

Strangely, a dedicated melee combatant is better off choosing a greataxe over a club.

Its not really Theory crafting. A spellcaster gets spellcasting feats. A melee combatant takes melee feats. And a dedicated Archer *gasp* takes archery feats. I have played high level archers. They are fun. And yes I spent every feat on archery and at least 60 percent of my WBL to boost archery. The problem is that a melee can pick a Great Axe, a Great Sword, or a Bastard sword and be at the same level of optimization. Its a difference of a Damage die and a crit range. With archery you have ONE choice... Composite Longbow. Thats it. The only other option (Crossbow) is an inferior choice because you gain less attacks and can't add your Str modifier. This is a big deal.

My Ranger had 4 attacks, plus Rapid Shot, plus Haste, plus Manyshot. 6 attacks with the first being doubled. He had a 20 Str(started with a 14 Str and had a +6 belt) for +5 damage on every shot.

Using a Repeating Crossbow you get a max of 5 shots. So no haste. And of course no Manyshot. And you dont get the +5 damage my bow user enjoyed. Even if you just use a Light Crossbow and take Rapid reload. Your missing out on Many-Shot and the damage from Str. My main grip is the Repeating Crossbow. It is an exotic weapon. It should be as good as a Bow for a dedicated archer if he chooses it. It is not. It should have been like the bow used in the Vahn Heilsing movie. That BA repeating CB that shot a million small metal bolts. Instead it has a 5 clip limit. WTF?

Leave crossbows as simple weapons that are inferior. Fine. But the Repeating Crossbow (exotic) should be on equal ground. Maybe instead of adding feats for crossbows... the Repeating Crossbow should just include those abilities... 20 bolt clip, dex to damage, and works with Many-shot. That would make it worth an exotic weapon prof and investing archery feats in.

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There are more serious issues with crossbows vs Bows.

1. Requires Rapid Reload or Exotic Weapon Prof (Repeating Crossbow) to shoot more then once in a round.
2. Can't use Many-shot with Crossbows
3. Can't add Str to damage
4. Can only fire 5 shots with a Repeating Crossbow before a full round action is required to reload.
5. Bows are more iconic for rangers. What's more iconic means more future magic-item possibilities, and more variety of interesting magical bows and arrows than of magical crossbows and enchanted bolts.

Advantages of Crossbows.

1. Crossbows have longer range
2. Crossbows are unaffected by Strength, ignoring penalties.
3. Crossbows count as Simple weapons
4. Crossbows critical-hit range is superior to bows (19-20X2)
5. Some Crossbows can be used One handed.

Hand crossbow: Can be fired one-handed with no penalty, dual-wielded as if with two light weapons. Reloading is a move action.
Light crossbow: Can be fired one-handed with a -2 penalty, dual-wielded as if with two light weapons (one-handed firing penalty stacks with the dual-wield penalties). Reloading is a move action.
Heavy crossbow: Can be fired one-handed with a -4 penalty, dual-wielded as if with two one-handed weapons (one-handed firing penalty stacks with the dual-wield penalties). Reloading is a full-round action.
Repeating crossbow: A repeating crossbow is hand, light or heavy, and has the same penalties for firing one-handed and dual-wielding as its non-repeating counterpart. Reloading is a free action when loading from the 5 round clip; replacing the 5 round clip is a full-round action.

Every kind of crossbow requires both hands to reload: you can fire them with a single hand, but you'll have to drop or stow whatever you have in your other hand to reload. This includes reloading a repeating crossbow from the clip.

Crossbow Mastery (Combat) changes the time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow for the type of crossbow you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.

Its prerequisites are feats you would take anyways (Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot), but its another feat tax.


The only way to balance crossbows without seriously overpowering duel welding users are as follows in my opinion.

1. The extra Feat tax will just have to be as is. Sorry but it is what it is.

2. Add a feat :

Double Tap (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a repeating crossbow 2 handed, your first attack fires two bolts as you quickly fire twice. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each bolt, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each bolt.

3. Add a feat:
Precise Marksman (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: When using a crossbow 2 handed, you add your Dex bonus to damage

4. Add the following Item:

Masterwork bolt clip - This bolt clip carries mini metal bolts that can be fired rapidly from a repeating crossbow. The clip size is extended to 20 bolts but the damage die of the crossbow bolt is reduced by one(D10 becomes D8, ect)

This will give a 2 handed repeating crossbow user equal footing with a bow. You get to use a crossbow with dex to damage about as well as a bow, but at the cost of 3 or 4 extra feats. A good trade off. Its limited to non duel welding users, and its got a reduced bolt damage.

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Detect magic - duh
Light – can’t hurt what you can’t see.
Mage hand – great utility. Useful in all sorts of ways.
Mending – Good out of combat spell.

Enlarge person – Great early buff for melee allies
Grease – One of the best Early CC spells. Take it early and use often.
Protection from bla– Great defensive buff. Good till 20 (see spells like Magic Jar)
Shield – Another great spell. +4 deflection AC will keep you alive in the early levels

Spells to avoid - Mage armor(you wear armor), Magic Fang (Good for normal Summoners, but bad for a Master summoner’s half strength pet that shouldn’t be in combat), Rejuvenate eidolon (lesser)(Same as Magic Fang… your pet shouldn’t be in combat).

Blur – good protection spell
Detect thoughts – great for social challenges and investigation
Glitterdust – Good CC and outlines invis opponents
Haste – His is your first 2nd level spell. Period. It is your go to spell.
Invisibility – Your second best choice at this level. You summon and buff. You don’t need Improved Invis.
Wind wall – Here is your third choice. Now you laugh at all archers.
Slow – My personal 4th. Great debuff for the important melee badies.

Spells to avoid – Alter self – usually a good choice but you have limited slots… buy a Greater hat of disguise), create pit (The create pit line is great but this first one is weak. Wait for some of the better ones) Evolution surge (lesser) (Get a wand of it).

3rd-Level — So many good spells at this level.
Charm monster – Combat, and out of combat spell.
Dimension door – Escape plan
Dispel magic – 1st spell to get in my opinion. It’s just that helpful for every lvl of the game.
Displacement – Another good defensive spell
Fly – Iconic spell for keeping out of the reach of melee.
Spiked pit – Now this is where the pit line gets good. Decent damage/Decent DC to climb out.
Tongues – You summon stuff… lots of stuff. You now can talk to all of them.

Spells to avoid - Heroism (Wait on the greater version), invisibility (greater)(You have Invisibility… you don’t directly attack. This is a waste of a 3rd lvl slot), magic fang (greater) ( Same as Magic Fang), Aqueous orb ( They get constant saves every round. It’s a risky CC), Evolution surge (Get a wand of it), Black tentacles (This gets a lot of flak but I think it decent. The CMD is a bit low though and there are just too many other great spells at this level).

4th-Level— This is your level of Save or suck spells. You become a lot more dangerous now.
Baleful polymorph – two saves but it’s a game over. One of my favorites.
Dismissal – It would seem almost wrong to be a summoner that didn’t know this spell.
Hold monster – Another save or your out of the fight spell. Sign me up.
Magic jar – A save or suck… and you get a new shiny toy when it works. So good.
Planar binding (lesser) – You’re a Summoner… this is what you do. Extract some service from some outsiders.
Purified calling – A reset for your pet.
Teleport – Only take this if you are the only one that can. Otherwise make the stingy wizard grab it.

Spells to avoid - Acid pit (Personally I don’t like destroying loot), Evolution surge (greater)(For a Master Summoner the regular version in wand form should be enough), transmogrify(It’s not like you’re going to be using this every day. If you need it get a scroll)

5th-Level — This is another level with too many good spells.
Banishment – Another Iconic spell. But you might not have the room.
Creeping doom – I would personally choose others but it’s a solid spell.
Dispel magic (greater) – See Dispel. It’s a great spell.
Ethereal jaunt – Good for escaping, sneaking, and scouting. Let the Wizard take it if you have one.
Heroism (greater) – Should be a top choice for you. It is a great support spell.
Hungry pit – Best of the pit spells imo. Ignore those who say its no good. Not EVERYTHING can fly.
Planar binding – Another Iconic spell.
Plane shift – Like Teleport… Let the wizard take it if you have one.
Simulacrum – Supper cheesy. Supper good.
Teleport (greater) - Like Teleport… Let the wizard take it if you have one.
True seeing – One of the best.
Wall of iron – it’s great CC but you might not have the room. You can also tip it over on top of a pit. Hehe.

Binding – Iconic Summoner spell.
Discern location - among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Your DM will hate you. It’s a Plot smasher.
Dominate monster – Why fight when you can make friends!
Maze – No save CC… nuff said.
Planar binding (greater) – Bind you some better outsiders.

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I found a letter I had written as the character I described... here is his letter to another player's character. A good cleric lol.

Zender the Infamous wrote:

There are very few truths in this world. I have found only two which hold any weight. Power and Law. Most would have you believe that there are others... Love, Friendship, Religion.... But these things are fleeting. Love can sour, Friends can turn to enemies, Gods can die. These things hold no true value.

Power however... it never fades. Now I know you will say that power can be lost and I will respond that while that may be true... A person can loose power, but that power will be gained by someone else. Power is never lost... just attained anew. If I drop a rock that rock still exist... someone else can pick it up and in doing so gain possession of the rock. The rock is eternal... only the owner of that rock changes.

Law is also an eternal truth. Laws bind us all. The laws of our world are what cause us to fall when we trip, or drown when we cant swim. These laws might change from world to world, they might be bent by magic, but those laws will remain. Each world have hard laws that determin what is right and what is wrong. Magic which can bend the laws of our world has its own set of laws which bind the magic user to its will. There will always be law.

Good and Evil... these things are not truths. Is it evil for the couragous paladin to slodder a village of goblins? Society says these creatures are evil and that the paladin did a "Good" thing. But what did the goblins do to the paladin? What of the inoccents... the children, the old, the women? Did they diserve what they recieved. Or was it truelly the Paladin who commited an evil act? Good and Evil are simply terms created by the weak to inform the masses what is expected of them. Morality is a lie.

Law though. It is what binds a group together just as law binds a world together. Law doesnt just tell you what is right and wrong... it clearly defines it. Unlike Good and Evil Law would have protected those goblins from being slaughtered. Law would have found the true wrong doing. Good and Evil are a tool used to control but Law... Law is the truth that society can build apon.

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Danit wrote:
stats are from random roll

There is your problem. Make them point buy with 20 or 15 points. Problem solved.

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Porphyrogenitus wrote:
But are they still potent enough to be PF's version of "CoDZilla"?

I could see this argument. A summoner might even come close to being the PF version of CODzilla... but I think it falls short on the spellcasting.

If there was a PF version of CODzilla I would say that Druid is the closest thing. Even with the nerfed Wildshape... if you dont dump your physical stats you can still be pretty effective in melee. And Druid kept all the other toys in its bag of tricks.

The other one I can think of is a Beast-Bound Witch after level 10. He can literally take over any body he wants permanently. Find a dragon. Take his body. Now you have the physical form and your spellcasting. Your BAB suffers but the right Parton gives you access to the combat buff spells you need. Add on top of that the fact you can get an 18 HD Ghost of ANYTHING you want for one Negative level (which you can give to your soul-bound familiar).

So your a Dragon. Your Familiar is a Dragon/Balor/Archon/whatever. You have a 18 HD Ghost Sorcerer as a pet. And your a 9th spell level caster with Cleric buffs. GG man... GG!

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So from the guys that helped to build the tier system.
Pathfinder Tier System

Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard, Oracle (with Paragon Surge), Sorcerer (with Paragon Surge);
Tier 2: Psion, Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, Bard (Magician w/ Paragon Surge);
Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Psychic Warrior, Wilder;
Tier 4: Barbarian, Fighter, Gunslinger, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Soulknife;
Tier 5: Cavalier, Expert, Monk, Samurai;
Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Warrior;

Whats funny. The Min/Max kings at the min-max boards are actually arguing whether the Summoner is a Tier 2 or 3 lol. As others have stated though. The question wasn't what tier it is. The question was about CODzilla. There where only TWO classes in 3.5 that did CODzilla well. Clerics and Druids. PF killed both.

Clerics lost Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell Metamagic. No longer a CODzilla.

Druids got a severely nerfed version of Wildshape. No longer a CODzilla.

There has been not class that could do what the old 3.5 Cleric and Druid could do in PF. This was by design. No more 24 hour buffed to high heaven Clerics crushing people in melee while saving their 9th level spells for "O crap" moments. No more stat dumping Druids that shift into a Massive Combat form, use Natural spell to cast a few Summons, and have a 20 HD beast Pet making the Fighter look dumb.

Side Note: The Cleric CODzilla didn't come into its own till a few years after 3.5 from what I remember. Divine Metamagic, and the rods didn't come out in Core. What that means... that just cause there is no CODzilla now in PF doesn't mean it might not rear its head again. Its just one PF expansion book away. One feat or magic item that lets the Cleric or the Druid go back to being Melee powerhouses while retaining all the rest of their versatility. PF will release more material. If I was a betting man I would say its going to happen again.

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Let me simplify this little rant.

1. No rule is universal for every group

2. The GM should be the ultimate decision maker.

3. The GM should never take out revenge or punishment in game.

4. The GM should listen to his players. Its his job to make sure they are having fun.

5. 99.9% of all issues in a game can we worked out if the GM is willing to TALK them out with his players.

P.S. Before you disagree with any of my points... see Rule 1.

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Buri wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
long post
The most "terrifying" build I've conceived for the Summoner was Synth 17, Pally 2, Monk 1. It has almost zero weaknesses. You can also either level dip into Lore Oracle or get a custom item for constant Nereid's Grace to add some icing to that AC.

And just because you built an effective Summoner has nothing to do with if it is a CODzilla.

Access to a few 9th level spells and a few spells early does not equal actually being able to cast 9th level spells

Your DC's are lower.
You dont have some of the more powerful spells
You dont have near the number of spells slots.

Is the summoner a powerful class - Yes
Is it as powerful as Tier 1 classes - No
Is is the new CODzilla - no

A summoner cant cast 7th, 8th, or 8th level spells
It doesn't have full BAB
It doesn't have the HP of a cleric or a druid.
It doesn't have the AC of a CODzilla

Add on top of that the fact people gloss over the weaknesses with Summoners.

Normal Summoner - You can EITHER use your Summon SLA or have your Pet out... not both at the same time.

Master Summoner - You can only have ONE summons out when your Pet is out. To have more then one your pet has to be dismissed and he is at HALF strength.

Sythesist Summoner - He can't cast is SLA's while in Eidolon form. He cant cast and attack at the same time. He gives up his action economy. Druids dont. They can wildshape, summon NA, and have their pet kicking butt ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

A Syth Summoner is the closest thing to a CODzilla (and the weakest of the 3 types imo due to the lose of Action Economy) and its still lacking. It has the AC and Fighting potential, but lacks the casting of a Cleric or the massive options of a Druid (Wildshape, pet, 9th level casting, armored casting, ect)

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thenovalord wrote:
It is only a game afterall so breaking immersions by having treasure disappear in no biggie.

wow. Breaking immersion is a biggie for me. Why not just go full on MMO and make items "Bind on Equip"

Mikaze wrote:
Craig Frankum wrote:

If a character dies, it's usually mid battle. Do the remaining characters really stay around and fight the enemy knowing they may be next?

A rule I have used in the past to a good deal of success is a modified Cause Fear. It affects all PCs within sight or sound of the dead PC regardless of level. DC 10 + dead PCs level. All other effects are as spell.

Personally, this would really bother me for the same reasons Antagonize does: It removes player agency over their PCs' characterization. Take PCs that would fly into a rage rather than be overwhelmed with fear upon seeing a friend die. Such a rule would force them to act far OOC from what their players wanted.

It crosses the line where GMs are telling players what their PCs feel, think, and do.

Agreed. What is the problem? Do things have to be that strict and static for DM's to keep the game under control? Do you really need to have that much control? Why cant people simply limit loot until the group falls back to a resonable level of loot.

Forcing people to leave loot laying there when they can see it... thats what a video game does. It is one of the great features of pen and paper RPGs... you can literally DO ANYTHING because your DM isn't a computer program with set responses... he can flow and adjust to what his players do. There are no invisible walls. Every door actually opens. Every person I meet can be talked to. If I really detest someone I can avoid or even kill him (whether he was meant to be an ally or not)Telling me I cant loot something in front of me is exactly what I play Pen and Paper to avoid. I swear I am waiting for a poster to tell us how he has Walls of Force anywhere he doesnt want his players to go.

If I wanted that crap I would go play Skyrim.

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carn wrote:
Thalin wrote:

If you're looking to avoid "Cheesy", please recognize that Master Summoner is considered by many to be the 2nd most powerful archtype in the game (after Synthasist).

I think it depends a bit, if the Master Summoner knows that behind that door the BBEG is sitting, he can go resting and then cast all his summons before kicking in the door. Most of the time there would be no need for the party to enter themselves.

And of course an enemy master summoner knowing when and where the party will kick in the door, would TPK better than anything else.

Not to mention that the idea that the Synth is more powerful then a Master Summoner or a Summoner is a complete fallacy. Its less powerful. Its just more complicated and easy to make too powerful if the rules are miss read.

Syth Summoners are not any more powerful then a Summoner's Pet. You loose the advantage of breaking the action economy that the Master and normal summoner enjoy. The only real advantage is the Temporary HP you gain, but these are hard to recover considering normal healing doesnt restore these HP.

Over all a normal Summoner with Invis and a Pet is more of a threat.
Master Summoner > Summoner > Synth Summoner

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Diminutive Titan wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

The whole thing doesn't sound very appealing.

Honestly I'd rather play something that went the other way, no eidolon, but better summoning.

Well, to each his own.

There are plenty of options available if you want to go in that direction, such as the Master Summoner archetype, or First-Worlder. As I said before you might also want to play a conjurer wizard or a cleric or druid.
If those options aren't appealing to you I also believe that another user named Cheapy has an adjusted Master Summoner archetype uploaded somewhere on the web, which might correspond more with your tastes.

Other than that, I don't think I can give you any other response, other than feeling your comment has provided me no insight in anything regarding the topic whatsoever.

Here is your problem with an archtype like your suggesting.

You want to give up the Summoner's Summon Monster SU ability for something else. The problem lies in the fact that you cant use said ability while your Eidolon is out. So its more of a back up ability to begin with.

If you replace the ability with something that benefits you while your Eidolon is out then you have effectively increased the power of the base class. The Master Summoner for instance only gets an Eidolon at half strength in order to be able to summon while it is out.

If you replace the Summon ability you will need to give him something that cant be used in conjunction with your Eidolon. A few ideas...

1. Envoker - Starting at 1st level, a summoner can use certain evocation spells based on what level of spell you can cast as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned.

1st - Magic Missle
2nd - Scorching Ray
3rd - Fireball
4th - Ice Storm
5th - Cone of Cold
6th - Chain Lightning

2. Fighter - The Summoner's BAB becomes equal to his Summoner level and gains a +4 moral bonus to Con when his Eidolon is not summoned.

3. Bard - A Summoner gain's the Bardic Performance ability, but this can only be used while his Eidolon is dismissed.

Im sure you can come up with something better but you get my point. It has to be an alternate ability that works when the Eidolon is dismissed.

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Kolokotroni wrote:
If you want to balance the summoner with say, the druid, its fairly straight forward. Take the evolutions, divide them into offense, defense and utility. Require that at least 25% of evolution points (rounded down) be spent on each. Or for each form, create a few mandatory but not particularly powerful evolutions as the eidolon levels (reducing available evolution points). Things like blind sense, darkvision, scent, etc. that do not inherently add to the eidolons power. Then increase the cost of the pounce evolution and add a level requirment to it. And you are pretty much all set.

Honestly I feel the Summoner is balanced as is.

1. You cant use your Eidolon and your Summons at the same time.
2. You cant have more then one Summon up at a time.
3. They have almost no offensive spells on their spell list. Its all CC/Buff/Utility.

Compare a Summoner to a Druid.

Druid vs Summoner

9th level spells vs 6th level spells
Huge robust spell list vs very narrow focus on buffs/CC
Both have 3/4 BAB
Both have D8 HP
Both have a very powerful pet
Can cast/summon while pet is out vs Cant summon with pet out
Can Change Shape to a battle/Utility form vs Cant Change shape

Druids are Shape shifters with D8 HP, 3/4 BAB, Full Casting, and a pet that is almost as powerful as an Eidolon. To balance a Summoner to a druid you would need to give it SIGNIFICANT buffs lol.

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Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

why are we worried about the repercussions of torture in a game where the protagonists are little more than glorified bandits?

look at what 90% of fantasy heroes have in common with bandits

    OK I will bite

  • they will slaughter legions of intelligent creatures to make a few extra bucks from their corpses
  • Because

    A. They are trying to stop them from doing some evil
    B. Contracted Bounty Hunters
    C. Attacked by said intelligent creatures

  • they always loot everything they can milk out of whatever they kill, from the scales of the dragon itself, to the eyes of the darn beholder
  • Those are beast and monsters. Its equivalent to having a Dear head on your wall. You don't usually see a party harvesting HUMANOID creatures which is in itself probably evil. The occasional barbarian who collects ears is the exception and usually looked down on by the rest of the party.

  • they carry highly damaging weapons designed to not give foes a chance to scream or call for help, as if they were assassins
  • They are adventures. Weapons are the tools of their trade. What are they supposed to carry? Girl Scout Cookies? Even the lowly farmer has a spear or bow for protection in a fantasy world.

  • they group up in squads from as few as 4 members to as many as 15. like a squad of bandits does
  • Well its a party game. I don't see your point. I don't go to the club or the movies by myself either... does that make me a thug?

  • no matter their personality, it falls to their greed
  • I don't find it greedy to want to be paid for work rendered.

  • they eat the cheapest things on the menu because they are stingy
  • Maybe at first level when your income is little better then an expert. But at higher levels I see a lot more splurging when it comes to food and drink.

  • they abandoned their families to fulfill their greed and their bloodlust
  • Wow. Thats a bleak look. Could it be they where orphans, or their tribe sent them away to fulfill a task, or they send gold back to the family, or they where raised by a cult, or a thousand other reasons why you would become an adventurer. Did every cleric/wizard/soldier NPC in your game abandon someone to go do what they do?

  • death by torture rack, hanging, or iron maiden, is really not much different than having your head cleaved off by a barbarian
  • Well one is use of tools and techniques to bring as much pain as possible while also delaying death till as much agony is achieved... while the other is a quick painless death. One is used after the target is helpless and the other is while he is usually actively trying to do the same to you. One is used to gain information or for personal perversion and the other can be in self defense or in honorable combat. Yeah totally the same thing.

  • they care more about improving their capacity to kill, to kill bigger foes, get bigger hauls and improve some more in an endless cycle.
  • I don't know about you, but I usually try to get better tools to make my job easier. I am in the military. Give me better guns and better body armor... not cause I want to kill better. But because at the end of the day It might save my life. So yeah. Bring on the loot/gear cycle.

    In conclusion Heroes =/= Bandits

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    No offense but its situations like this that caused me to decide to never play a Paladin as they are written. Its like there is a disease that causes all DM's to automatically start considering how to cause a Paladin fall the second one is introduced into a game.

    Fall... or your entire party literally falls into hell. Really? Its like the poster child of no win situations. But you left obscure clues that they may or may not find in time. Im sorry but I have to agree with many of the other posters. This is just a bad idea.

    The only way this would be cool would be if you talked to the player and explain what you want to do and he gives his ok... and you explain that it wont be a TPK if he chooses the leave the kid alive. Otherwise its just unfair imo.

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    I personally love them. Heck I hope they make more. Why not? If your running a game just limit what you dont want. If your playing then dont play something you dont like. Why is it that the simple existance of new classes offends you(And by you I am speaking generally)? Its like someone complaining there are more options then just Ford and Chevy when they go to buy a car. More options = Good. Someone actually complained that it was harder to min/max when there where so many options... well then dont go to that extreame when it comes to min/max. Just make a competent character you can have fun with.

    Now my opinions on the classes...

    Witch - So much flavor in this class. Some of the hexs are just full of RP value... for both players and DM NPC enemies.

    Oracle - Love it. Great spontanous divine caster. Flavor and effective.

    Summoner - While it is complicated and can cause issues for DM's if they aren't prepared... its a great class. It reminds me of the Malconvoker from 3.5 which I loved... in fact I made a hombrew Malconvoker archtype for the summoner just to get the feel perfect.

    Magus - Its a gish in a box. It what alot of people wanted since 3rd edition. It works well and I think is right where it should be on the power scale.

    Ninja - Its what the rogue should have been. Personally I give it trapfinding, allow rogue talents and call it a rogue... I just reflavor to be less ninja sounding. (Rogue luck vs Ki as an example).

    Samurai - Never seen it in action, but if someone wanted to play one I would simply reflavor it so be less asian.

    Inquisitor - I like it. Its a good mix between Cleric and Bard. It has great melee potential while still giving some spell casting for utility. Again the flavor is fantastic based on what deity you choose.

    Gunslinger - This is the one class I dont like. First I dont do Steampunk so no firearms in my game. Second the mechanics are just wonky and hard to balance. A full BA class that uses touch attacks. Its seriously overpowered if you dont highly adjust your enemies to compensate for it.

    Over all. Most the classes are full of RP value. They all have their nitch. And it provides a breath of fresh air for those of us who have played since 3.0 first came out. Sometimes you want to play something new. These classes are great additions.

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    This is why I hate paladins in 3.5/PF. The Code screws you without providing any true benefit over other classes. And you have lose lose situations like this...

    A. Paladin refuses to kill the evil prisoners till they are dragged back to town and given a trial. He is so frustrating... how do we get rid of the him!


    B. Paladin slaughtered the evil prisoners! Im writing a letter to his superiors, petitioning the DM that he should fall, and never going to help the Paladin in combat again! Jerk!

    Literally you cant win with some groups... its not if the Paladin gets screwed... its when. I have seen some of the most ticky tacky crap called on Paladins. In my games I completely overhauled them. Paladin is a 10 level cleric prestige class. You can be LG, CG, LE, or CE based on your deity. And the code is much more forgiving. It really takes some blatant and repeated acts to fall. In its RAW form... none of my Players would touch a paladin.

    As for the OP: Your a CN Ninja. RP a CN Ninja. You shouldn't care one way or the other. Let him do him, and you do you.

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    This is such a vague and situational question. There really is no right answer.

    How often do you summon?
    What else do you want to do?
    What would you have to sacrifice to get those 2 feats?
    What is the rest of the party make up?
    What AP/campaign are you in?
    What type of mobs do you usually fight?
    How many mobs are in an average encounter?
    How much wealth do you have to throw at the issue?
    Ect, ect, ect

    There isn't a clear cut answer. Its up to the individual to look at how often the feat will come in handy in the situations he will find himself and his party. That pretty much goes for half the feats in the game.

    Augment Summoning is one of those for a non-dedicated summoner.

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    Looks like a decent Fighter (archer)build to me. Its a straight class with what seems normal feat choices. It seems the player didnt do anything cheesy. He just made a solid archer. On top of that the poster has mentioned several times that he buffs the archer.

    A reasonably well build fighter archer with a pocket buffer is going to wreck things. Whats the issue? The DM should hit his weaknesses more and throw things at the party that work well for the other characters strengths. The OP needs to realize he is buffing an archer which does really good damage if the DM doesn't understand how to combat against archers.

    If anything the DM should give the other characters a chance to retool their characters if they want... or throw more RP encounters if they don't want to combat such things. All I hear so far is "We built our characters for RP and not combat... its not fair he is better then us at combat!"

    Let him shine at combat. If you built your character for RP then you should shine there. Simple as that. Buff him and let him go crazy. Let the DM figure out how to make the combat last more then 2 rounds (Toughness, More flunkies, terrain, concealment, or just get up in his grill more often and make him move)

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    38. Back rub
    39. Foot rub
    40. Fetch Arrows from the battle field
    41. Loot bodies on battle field
    52. If being tracked by sent have the US take a piece of clothing in another direction

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    drbuzzard wrote:

    Ok, I have a rather funky idea for a campaign, and I need some information.

    Up front the premise is to take a team from Alkenstar and run Rise of the Runelords. This would mean a team lacking in any spellcasters. I would allow alchemists (and turn their abilities to Supernatural).

    What I need to know is what classes and archetypes could be considered as valid coming from a place where magic doesn't occur...

    Wait... so you want to run a campaign with zero magic, but the RotR is based on a bunch of crazy old super casters.... how does that work?

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