Only used SNA to summon unicorns and only see wildshape as a +4/+2?
*eye twitch*
I don't have much to say to that.
LOL... exactly. Nathanael you realize that alot of the crazy stuff from 3.5 has been taken out on purpose right? CODzilla, Batman, ect. World shattering builds are out there but are not promoted here like say... briliantgamolagist forums do.
Druid in its current form is balanced. And you miss the point of Wildshape and SNA if all you use it for is a stat boost and unicorns.
All I ever used Wildshape for was to fly and the +19 Natural Armor. . . PF is what reduced it to a very bland, underpowered stat boost or the occasional move or sneak ability. . .
As for summons- they have a few uses, but I have never been a big fan of them whatever the class/list, and the current SNA list is very weak comparatively against the old list or the current SM list, or even the equivalent spell from 2nd edition AD&D.
The fact that druids are the weakest they have ever been now and have been given the short end of the stick on Archetypes (Paizo's replacement for PrCs that's supposed to let you play any concept) is sad-- instead of "Bear Druud" and "Dinosaur Druud" that basically get weakened versions of the core abilities why can't Druid have Archetypes like Summoner and Alchemist have gotten?
Planar Shepherd says hi. Admittedly, that's the only real standout druid PrC I recall.
Everything Prince of Knives said is correct.
I do miss Planar Shepard though! Such a beautifully broken PrC lol. The ability to wildshape into any Angle or Demon/Devil. Absolutly brilliant fun. My one Planar Shepard had to be retired once he was able to wildshape into one of the Archons (cant remember the exact one... Trumpet maybe?). Either way. One of the things Planar shepard added was they got all Extrodinary and SUPERNATURAL abilities. You got the spellcasting of whatever you changed into. So broken. Druid HOLY WORD for the win lol!
Only used SNA to summon unicorns and only see wildshape as a +4/+2?
*eye twitch*
I don't have much to say to that.
LOL... exactly. Nathanael you realize that alot of the crazy stuff from 3.5 has been taken out on purpose right? CODzilla, Batman, ect. World shattering builds are out there but are not promoted here like say... briliantgamolagist forums do.
Druid in its current form is balanced. And you miss the point of Wildshape and SNA if all you use it for is a stat boost and unicorns.
All I ever used Wildshape for was to fly and the +19 Natural Armor. . . PF is what reduced it to a very bland, underpowered stat boost or the occasional move or sneak ability. . .
As for summons- they have a few uses, but I have never been a big fan of them whatever the class/list, and the current SNA list is very weak comparatively against the old list or the current SM list, or even the equivalent spell from 2nd edition AD&D.
The fact that druids are the weakest they have ever been now and have been given the short end of the stick on Archetypes (Paizo's replacement for PrCs that's supposed to let you play any concept) is sad-- instead of "Bear Druud" and "Dinosaur Druud" that basically get weakened versions of the core abilities why can't Druid have Archetypes like Summoner and Alchemist have gotten?
See you keep saying druids are weak without any good reasons aside from your own inability to use the class features.
"As for summons- they have a few uses" Did you ever use summons!?!?!? WTFBBQ!?!?!
*Druid archetypes are crap though. But that is because druids still need further nerfs to actually be balanced compared to other classes.
The fact that druids are the weakest they have ever been now and have been given the short end of the stick on Archetypes (Paizo's replacement for PrCs that's supposed to let you play any concept) is sad-- instead of "Bear Druud" and "Dinosaur Druud" that basically get weakened versions of the core abilities why can't Druid have Archetypes like Summoner and Alchemist have gotten?
This has been an issue for Druids since 3.0. There where very few (good) prc's for Druid then either. I think it has alot to do with the fact they are good at everything. Its hard to balance a good archetype/PrC for Druid. It is either weak (Bear Shaman) or insanely good (Planar Shepard). It was the same in 3.5. There where very few PrC's released at all... and most of those where terrible.
The fact that druids are the weakest they have ever been now and have been given the short end of the stick on Archetypes (Paizo's replacement for PrCs that's supposed to let you play any concept) is sad-- instead of "Bear Druud" and "Dinosaur Druud" that basically get weakened versions of the core abilities why can't Druid have Archetypes like Summoner and Alchemist have gotten?This has been an issue for Druids since 3.0. There where very few (good) prc's for Druid then either. I think it has alot to do with the fact they are good at everything. Its hard to balance a good archetype/PrC for Druid. It is either weak (Bear Shaman) or insanely good (Planar Shepard). It was the same in 3.5. There where very few PrC's released at all... and most of those where terrible.
What do you give the girl who already has everything? Trap options!
See you keep saying druids are weak without any good reasons aside from your own inability to use the class features.
"As for summons- they have a few uses" Did you ever use summons!?!?!? WTFBBQ!?!?!
*Druid archetypes are crap though. But that is because druids still need further nerfs to actually be balanced compared to other classes.
Charging into combat as a bear/cat was and is still rarely the right option.
Summons are incredibly overrated by a lot of people. What exactly are you doing with your summoned Hyena that's so good?
I mean, I have an almost unnatural love of Owlbears which have appeared in many of my games; but that's something you throw against a 2nd level party not something that's going to have any punch at 7th level.
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In response to it being said that wildshape sucks in combat:
The fact that my druid can assume a form with mulitiple natural attacks, all primary and with grab, in addition to being able to bombard this creature with magic while still keeping it grappled seems pretty hilarious to me. Throw in the fact that it keeps up with gunslingers in raw damage and the toughest tank builds in AC, and I'd say you've got a pretty nasty character.
In response to it being said that wildshape sucks in combat:
The fact that my druid can assume a form with mulitiple natural attacks, all primary and with grab, in addition to being able to bombard this creature with magic while still keeping it grappled seems pretty hilarious to me. Throw in the fact that it keeps up with gunslingers in raw damage and the toughest tank builds in AC, and I'd say you've got a pretty nasty character.
Natural Spell gives you the ability to cast spells while wild shaped; you still can't cast spells while grappling because you still have to simulate the motions with your bear claws.
The attacks aren't that impressive either-- two claws and a bite that deal d6/d6/d8-- at the level you are at a full BaB character has three attacks all of which are going to do more.
And don't forget that while it progresses in Natural Armor, larger creatures get straight up Dex penalties off your own Dex. . . so to be effective your Druid has to have High Strength, high wisdom, and at least above average dex or you're going to be in a bad way-- its got very stiff requirements to be a druid.
So, the druid isn't nearly as good as the Druid of 3.5, but I think that that's a good thing. The Druid of 3.5 was ridiculous, to the point of pretty much having no real weaknesses. A PF druid is still really good though, but you have to build more around either casting or Wild shape. You can't do both really well, but you can do one well, and the other serviceably. I'd say druid is pretty well off, in terms of wild shape power. Their spell list isn't quite as good as other full casters, but they get a lot of good spells that no one else gets, so I count that in their favor, and turning any situational spell into an SNA is a great trade; SNA isn't as good as SM, but spontaneous casting of them makes up for it.
Essentially, a druid isn't nearly as good as it used to be, but that's not too bad of a thing, and a druid can still be a versatile and powerful.
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In response to it being said that wildshape sucks in combat:
The fact that my druid can assume a form with mulitiple natural attacks, all primary and with grab, in addition to being able to bombard this creature with magic while still keeping it grappled seems pretty hilarious to me. Throw in the fact that it keeps up with gunslingers in raw damage and the toughest tank builds in AC, and I'd say you've got a pretty nasty character.
Natural Spell gives you the ability to cast spells while wild shaped; you still can't cast spells while grappling because you still have to simulate the motions with your bear claws.
The attacks aren't that impressive either-- two claws and a bite that deal d6/d6/d8-- at the level you are at a full BaB character has three attacks all of which are going to do more.
And don't forget that while it progresses in Natural Armor, larger creatures get straight up Dex penalties off your own Dex. . . so to be effective your Druid has to have High Strength, high wisdom, and at least above average dex or you're going to be in a bad way-- its got very stiff requirements to be a druid.
Stiff requirements that are extremely easily met even on 20pt. buy. A good stat spread coupled with a handful of relatively inexpensive magic items will fix any and all holes you might find in a druid. More than that, you can indeed cast spells while grappling. Not all spells have somatic components, and there are workarounds even for the ones that do. Just a little bit of work can pretty much result in a druid capable of doing about damn well anything it pleases. Social? Covered even if you cannibalize your CHA for points given how easy a weakness that is to overcome (and their empathy BS being next to useless). Skills? Covered in spades. Stealth? They'll even beat a ninja in stealth if you make the right decisions. Combat? Covered in spades.
An Arcane Hierophant by itself was weaker than a plain Druid (it could get crazy at 20th if you were allowed to use MT with it, I think). Higher level spells are a pretty big deal. The class features helped make it interesting and fun though.Arcane Hierophant. But that was multi-classed.Planar Shepherd says hi. Admittedly, that's the only real standout druid PrC I recall.
Everything Prince of Knives said is correct.
It has infinite spells; Wild shape (when it was good) which with Draconic wild shape made this a very high Natural armor bonus; all the Offensive Wizard spells+ Druid spells to fill out any holes you had. . . it was good.
The Familiar companion was incredible, got to advance on both charts giving it Int in addition to the Animal Companion boosts. . .
First four levels you got a druid, levels 5-10 are a bit rough, but by 11 it pretty well caught up on all counts.
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Wild shape can be summed up as "Turn into another party member, and fly too if you'd like"
Well, the dice of an attack really is unimportant. The modifiers are what matter. A strong druid, let's say 16 strength, which goes to 18 when shaping into a medium creature, will probably have power attack as well.
I recently GMed a game with a level 4 druid, 16 strength, who wildshaped into a Deinonychus dinosaur and had:
2 Talons +6 (1d8+6) (+1 attack/-2 damage if not using power attack)
Bite +6 (1d6+6)
2 foreclaws +1 (1d4+3) (secondary weapons, +1 attack, -1 damage if no power attack)
She also had a tiger AC with bite, claw, and rake as well.
Now, a power attacking fighter with 18 strength at this level that is two-handing a weapon is going to have a +8 to one attack, and a +14 on that damage (assuming weapon focus and weapon specialization, and a masterwork weapon). But that same fighter won't also have a 60ft land speed. If you need to chase down someone on horseback, the druid will have a huge advantage over the fighter. Or if you need to jump across a chasm. Or if you need to detect an invisible creature (the wild shape gets scent). The tiger is an automatic flanking buddy as well, and more hits means more chances to crit.
When combat is over, the fighter's done. The druid, on the other hand, can heal, can lesser restore, can have the tiger track a foe, can cast numerous utility spells.
Is a wildshaped druid as good in combat as a fighter? No, but they shouldn't really be. They should be strong, but the fighter's whole shtick is combat. That's what he does, and he can't do much else.
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And while you find the Current Wildshape weak, look at all the crying and nashing of teeth over the Sythesist Summoner (who in reality is weaker then a straight summoner or Master Summoner).
It has a more 3.5 flavor shifting mechanic and people scream to the high heavens... and its still a static form that cant change like 3.5 Wildshape, Syth Summoners only get 6th level casting and no animal companion. Yet you see more nerf theads over them than any other class. Can you imagine the threads if Druid still had 3.5 wildshape.
I didn't say that's what made Druid powerful - though it certainly loaned itself to the perception of Druid's power. Druid's versatility gave/gives it power. There's no game situation that a Druid cannot theoretically produce an answer to, and very few that it's cannot produce an answer to on demand.Game situation:
Over deity challenges druid to cast spells while wearing metal armor or said Over deity will destroy all things.
"Good thing I took that level in Bard!"
^The only time you will ever hear that phrase uttered.Also, can I ask--what's the deal with CoDzilla? What did the Cleric do that was so powerful?
(However, if you're going to do summons you need to do it right. Get printouts of their stats and abilities and keep them on hand at all times, and make your turns crisp and clean. If you're taking longer to make your move than an average player on his tenth D&D session ever, you're doing it wrong.)
Also, don't swarm-summon celestial eagles. I know they seem pretty handy with Augment Summoning, but trust me, it's not worth having to make literally thirty-two extra rolls in a single round (it was PbP play and it was still a pain).
I didn't say that's what made Druid powerful - though it certainly loaned itself to the perception of Druid's power. Druid's versatility gave/gives it power. There's no game situation that a Druid cannot theoretically produce an answer to, and very few that it's cannot produce an answer to on demand.Game situation:
Over deity challenges druid to cast spells while wearing metal armor or said Over deity will destroy all things.
"Good thing I took that level in Bard!"
^The only time you will ever hear that phrase uttered.Also, can I ask--what's the deal with CoDzilla? What did the Cleric do that was so powerful?
Basically the same stuff Druid did, but with more hoops. Cleric's power ceiling was/is higher than Druid's, but it's floor is lower; that is, it's easier to screw up building a Cleric, but the rewards for doing so well are greater.
See also: cast the entire Wizard list in addition to your own.
In 3.5 Divine Power straight up gave you full BAB. Now, in Core this was strong, but once you added Divine Metamagic into the mix (which let you pay metamagic cost with Turn attempts 1 for 1) Clerics quickly became walking buff machines with many many Persistent (the 3.5 one made a spell have a 24 hour duration) spells active at any given time. And that's before you started picking up multiple pools of Turn Undead (which powered Divine Metamagic) or carrying Nightsticks. Still don't underestimate Core 3.5 Clerics. They were very effective at all levels of play.
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Ah, alright. I guess the reason you only hear about the D part of that equation is that Druids were a more linear offender.
Weirdly enough, this conversation about how underpowered and worthless druids are is making me think a druid is the class I should pick next. ;)
Clerics weren't quite as gross. Numerically, a tricked out cleric outperformed the fighter, but a fighter still had their bonus feats and so forth. It was horrible because it relegated the fighter to a backup, monk-like role. You could control some of those issues by not allowing whatever that darned item was that gained you any number of extra turnings you needed. Without it, the cleric actually had to manage high level spell slots instead of relying on Divine Metamagic.
The druid, though... you could dump all three physical stats and still turn into a spellcasting velociraptor or T-rex or whatever. Plus, your animal companion had the same numbers as a mediocre fighter, so again, the fighter was stuck trying to deploy specialized feats in order to do anything special that the casters couldn't do.
Woah Woah... never dump CON (unless your dead in which case dump CON) even on a 3.5 Druid. Just STR and DEX.
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I've read all the guides. . . at the end of the day 99% of the time the text of any Summon Spell comes out to "Spend one round doing something which will have no bearing on the outcome of the encounter you are in"Summons are incredibly overrated by a lot of people.I'm sorry. I can't handle you or this conversation any more. Go read a guide or actually try to summon during a game or something. Gozreh preserve me.
I just came out of Bonekeep without losing any teammates because the summoner and druid filled the battlefield with earth elementals to soak hits, beat down opponents, and block avenues of approach. You don't know what you're talking about.
On the subject of wild shape, I point you to the giant octopus and Planar Wild Shape.
Woah Woah... never dump CON (unless your dead in which case dump CON) even on a 3.5 Druid. Just STR and DEX.
Oh, right, how could I forget about the alternate form change? That was a big deal, back in the day.
I guess my original intent of the post was lost in all the ranting. I don't care about the spell casting, I don't care about the summoning. I just want better shapeshifting options, even if at the cost of the other two. Plus, "you're going through a dungeon for the next two books" crap, well, flyings out, swimming is out, I'll take up the whole hallway if I'm large. Guess I'll just stay a medium sized bear even though I'm level 10 and could be huge...
The druid is great, and the PF changes to wildshape/polymorph was a necessary fix.
A melee druid is perfectly useful.
The important part of wildshape is turning into something with 3-5 natural attacks. The str bonus is icing on the cake, that let us compete despite not having full BAB.
At mid levels the melee druid works really well compared to a fighter or barbarian due to the extra attacks. Counting the companion, it is even better.
From what I've been reading about all this wild shaping being extremely versitile and what not... It sounds like you guys assume the Druid can shapeshift a whole lot. In the "prime time" of most groups, 6-10th level or so, that's 4 times per day, sure, you've got some "decent" versatility there, but not enough to cover all the different situations that have been noted PLUS have forms ready for combat.
You know that Wildshape lasts for... hours per druid level right? So a 10th level Druid has 40 hours worth Wildshape in a 24 hour period. That's quite a bit of versatility. And don't forget Druid's Vestment's for only 3,750 GP you get another use. So... ya... you'll be ready for combat... all day.. every day
Are you doing Pathfinder Society Sindalla? Because if you're not, it's not difficult to come up with a wildshaping class that could be a far better shapeshifter and thus melee combatant than the Druid has a right to be.
No, I'm not doing PFS, I was planning on making a Druid for our Wrath of the Righteous game next month. It involves mythic leveling, and I wanted to do a guardian role. Dwarven bear shaman. I thought it's be a fun, cool concept, and then realized, nope, the Druid wildshape sucks. I mean, if I could AT LEAST, get the stats no matter what size I become, I'd consider it to be worth it, but in order to make maximum usefulness of the bear shaman, I could, in the best situations, be a large bear, here are no huge bears.
Lets see, full progression casting, 3/4 BAB, armor, one of the best pets in the game, other useful abilities, AND the ability to change form for hours at a time to gain buffs ranging from attack types, movement types, AC, stats, and specials. Yea that seems pretty unbalanced to me too.
OOOH? You meant unbalanced weak!?!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THAT IS HILARIOUS!!
You know that Wildshape lasts for... hours per druid level right? So a 10th level Druid has 40 hours worth Wildshape in a 24 hour period. That's quite a bit of versatility. And don't forget Druid's Vestment's for only 3,750 GP you get another use. So... ya... you'll be ready for combat... all day.. every day
Do the uses per day carry over if you have to change forms again? Otherwise, that means I have to STAY in bear form for 10 hours, and change if necessary, then change back... Boom, there's 3 of my 4 uses at level 10 hope I don't have to Do that again, or else I'm stuck in normal form and have to resort to spell casting.
Wildshape lets you change back without blowing another use. Here's the relevant text:
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day.
So, ya... you'll have the form you need when you need it, unless you need to go Bear, Bird, Rat, Bird again... then maybe you might have an issue, but that's might convoluted and again Druid's Vestment's are only 3,750 GP. A scenario where you have to rapidly change wild shapes is... unlikely.
You know that Wildshape lasts for... hours per druid level right? So a 10th level Druid has 40 hours worth Wildshape in a 24 hour period. That's quite a bit of versatility. And don't forget Druid's Vestment's for only 3,750 GP you get another use. So... ya... you'll be ready for combat... all day.. every day
Yo, I don't think that's the case. Druids' wild shaping is #/day. It wasn't changed barbarian-style to be "Okay, I'll use five hours here, five there". That's the one kinda annoying thing about wild shape, in my book.
Also that I have to go to three different parts of the book to get all my intel just to use the information in the other book, but that's more of a nitpick.
Ya, exactly. You can be a bear from Breakfast til Supper unless you need to be a bird. In which case you can be a bird the whole rest of the day, unless you need a be a mouse... and then you can still use your 4th Wild Shape to get back to a being bear for the whole rest of the day. I mean ya a weird scenario could come up but its just really really unlikely.
short end of the stick on Archetypes
Possibly the only thing you have said in this thread that I could agree with.
Only for some archetypes, though, so on second thought, not so sure. Mechanically speaking, archetypes are extraordinarily hit and miss for most classes, so I do not know that there is anything special about the druid here. And druid is already so strong that it's hard to buff them further with an archetype.
Hmmm... thinking back on past stuff...
I found the ability to see through blizzards, and also control weather so that blizzards happened and none of my foes could see squat, to be quite attractive last time I made an Arctic Druid npc.
It was definitely a large open spaces type of character, at its best in the outdoors. In that environment, pretty terrifying foe and the archetype synergized awesomely well with what the base druid had to offer in that respect.
So on third thought... nope.
(also: Awakened Great White Whale. Say it with me: hell yeah)
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Are you doing Pathfinder Society Sindalla? Because if you're not, it's not difficult to come up with a wildshaping class that could be a far better shapeshifter and thus melee combatant than the Druid has a right to be.No, I'm not doing PFS, I was planning on making a Druid for our Wrath of the Righteous game next month. It involves mythic leveling, and I wanted to do a guardian role. Dwarven bear shaman. I thought it's be a fun, cool concept, and then realized, nope, the Druid wildshape sucks. I mean, if I could AT LEAST, get the stats no matter what size I become, I'd consider it to be worth it, but in order to make maximum usefulness of the bear shaman, I could, in the best situations, be a large bear, here are no huge bears.
I'm playing a mythic Druid myself, and it is pure awesome sauce. If you want to go full melee then start with an 17 or 18 str. By 4th level you will hit 22 in bear form or 24 assuming you have get str belt. Just wait until you get the elemental forms...so much awesome there.
Trust me at the mid-levels melee Druids simply dominate martial classes in combat, and are full casters with a pet to boot. Top tier class all around.