Is the occultist (arcanist) the new summoner of choice ?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks to the great people at d20prd.com the occultist is up for perusal. The most notable feature is the addition of the summoner summon monster ability using the arcanist arcane resiviour. This gives a 20th level occultist 218 1st level monsters or 24 9th level. No more 5 minute work days. You also get the wizards spell list and other class abilities. Down side no pet. Solution leadership at 7th level.


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Not really.

You basically give up your 1st and 7th Exploit for the ability to cast summon monster as a standard action (plus the move action to sack the spell) and the 1 minute per caster level. Because it cost 1 point per spell level its too expensive to use your normal pool. You will have to sack the spell slot you could have used to just cast the spell in the first place. So you get for 2 exploits...

1 min/CL summon monster as a standard action when you sack a spell(same as a cleric sacking spells for heals)
You gain the Cleric Planar spells (meh)

While this is strong its at the cost of 1/5 of your exploits. As an arcanist you have less spells to begin with. Also... Because you get a new level of Summon Monster at every odd level but dont gain that level of spell casting till your next even level your having to sack several spells or you loose one of your normal pool each summons. Compare this too a Master Summoner. He has 5 + Cha mod in summons in addition to his normal casting.

9th level casting vs 6th level casting, but if you want to churn out the summoning power of a Summoner your not going to do alot of casting. Not to mention you can only have one at a time while the Master Summoner can flood the field.

Its a toss up really. A strong Archetype but it doesn't really replace the appeal of a Summoner imo.


Your numbers at any given moment aren't as good as a Master Summoner's (and a regular summoner can do almost as well). A little better than a Conjuration wizard though (probably equaled out by the wizard's better spells).

It is kind of silly you trade one single exploit for that though.

Psi51 wrote:
Solution leadership at 7th level.

Once you start talking about Leadership everything goes out the window.


Master Summoner this is not...

The Master Summoner can drop 2 summons a round (for 3 rounds if you allow Quicken Spell-like Ability). Additionally the Summoner can flodo the field with his summons...

The summoner's 6th level casting is not quite so debilitating when you look at his spell list... many of his "level 6" spells are actualy 8-9th level spells...

Also, the master Summoner still has a "familiar" to run around with him (his Eidolon is effectively a familiar)


anlashok wrote:

Your numbers at any given moment aren't as good as a Master Summoner's (and a regular summoner can do almost as well). A little better than a Conjuration wizard though (probably equaled out by the wizard's better spells).

It is kind of silly you trade one single exploit for that though.

Psi51 wrote:
Solution leadership at 7th level.
Once you start talking about Leadership everything goes out the window.

2 Exploits... 1st and 7th

Sovereign Court

If you don't like the summoner, think it's a clunky or OP class, or don't like how it steals the conjurer's thunder too much, but also envy it's summoning - then I think this is a very good compromise.

Standard action summoning is pretty powerful, and the minute duration adds a lot of options. Interestingly, you get access to new summon SLAs faster than you get access to regular spells of the same level.

I'm looking forward to playing this. I think it's fairly powerful but not entirely overboard.


Am I correcting in thinking an Unlettered Occultist Spell Specialist is possible, and we thus finally have a caster that excels at both healing and summoning?


I guess it will be in pathfinder society.

In any case its probably the best arcanist (and that is a considerable achievement).


To be fair you also gain the summon spells EARLIER than you'd be able to cast them.

E.g. an occultist can summon monster II at level 3, when it gets 2nd level spells at 4.


davidvs wrote:
Am I correcting in thinking an Unlettered Occultist Spell Specialist is possible, and we thus finally have a caster that excels at both healing and summoning?

I would say even if they stack they don't excel at both healing and summoning. The witch list is short a number of key healing spells unless she uses the healing patron and the unlettered arcanist doesn't get a patron.

Also, clerics have long been able to standard action summon outsiders with the same alignment as their aura and their place as the best holistic healer has never been remotely challenged.


Atarlost wrote:
Also, clerics have long been able to standard action summon outsiders with the same alignment as their aura and their place as the best holistic healer has never been remotely challenged.

Clerics can summon very few creatures as a standard action. Even the new feat Summon Good Monster only adds a handful of options.

The Unlettered Occultist Spell Specialist Arcanist is a great summoner and good healer. Wands of Lesser Restoration can help make up the difference.

A Cleric with an evil aura or who takes the Summon Good Monster feat is a reasonable summoner and great healer. No items I know of can improve the summoning.

(What is really sad is that Skeleton Summoner does not help, because undead do not have the evil subtype!)

(Also, Summon Neutral Monster is awesome, but does not provide that many creatures of any one alignment type. So with one feat the Unlettered Occultist Spell Specialist Arcanist becomes amazing. The Cleric takes Summon Good Monster for much less awesomeness.)


Actually, I realized that the standard action summoning only really matters for "combat creatures".

For "utility creatures" there is no rush.

So if a Cleric aura alignment has at least one great "combat creature" choice for each spell level, that is good enough.

Right?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Sacred Summon is the standard action summoning feat for cleric. Combined with Summon good, it is pretty beastly.


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Eltacolibre wrote:
Sacred Summon is the standard action summoning feat for cleric. Combined with Summon good, it is pretty beastly.

No.

Unless I've made a mistake, below is the complete list for Summon Monster I through Summon Monster VI. An asterisk marks an option provided by the Summon Good Monster or Summon Neutral Monster feat. (I stopped at VI because most campaigns are low- and mid-level.) The number before the creature's name specifies the associated level of Summon Monster spell.

It is still true that Clerics of Lawful Evil deities get the most from Sacred Summons.

No good alignment receives more than four creatures, nor any until the Cleric is fifth level.

I doubt any deity alignment (except possibly Lawful Evil) would be considered "pretty beastly". Perhaps some of these creatures have more combat potential than I recognize at first glance.

-----

Lawful Good alignment subtype summon creatures:
3 Lantern archon
4 Hound archon
6 Legion archon *

Neutral Good alignment subtype summon creatures:
3 Foo Dog *
3 Silvanshee agathion *
4 Foo Lion *
5 Vulpinal agathion *

Chaotic Good alignment subtype summon creatures:
3 Lyrakien azata *
5 Bralani azata
6 Lillend azata

Lawful Neutral alignment subtype summon creatures:
3 Arbiter inevitable *

[True neutral is not an aura.]

Chaotic Neutral alignment subtype summon creatures:
3 Voidworm protean *
6 Chaos Beast *
6 Naunet Protean *

Lawful Evil alignment subtype summon creatures:
2 Lemure (devil)
4 Hell hound
5 Bearded devil
5 Kyton
6 Erinyes (devil)

Neutral Evil alignment subtype summon creatures:
5 Xill
6 Shadow mastiff -- an "alternative" usable with GM permission

Chaotic Evil alignment subtype summon creatures:
3 Dretch (demon)
5 Babau (demon)
6 Shadow demon
6 Succubus (demon)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Oh don't get me wrong, Sacred Summon , especially good alignment is only really useful after 5th level spells, before that, it pretty much sucks. It's not a problem for my cleric who is level 15 at the moment but wouldn't recommend to take it before level 9 , the feat I mean.


Ah, then we're in agreement.


davidvs wrote:
Am I correcting in thinking an Unlettered Occultist Spell Specialist is possible, and we thus finally have a caster that excels at both healing and summoning?

Ah, the Spell Specialist is incompatible. Both it and the Occultist replace the first- and seventh-level exploits.

I need to read more carefully.

Still a good summoner/healer, though.

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