Class skills feeling off?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Are there any class skill lists that you disagree with, like one of the class skills feels like it should not be there or it is missing a skill that should be there?

For me there are three, the witch, the inquisitor, and the summoner. I feel the witch should have bluff as a class skill for hiding where their magic comes from. After all the page on the OGC does say that some witches live in society while hiding the fact that they are witches.

As for the inquisitor it's partially lore and partially mechanics as to why them lacking local knowledge. For the lore I imagine that when you're hunting down enemies of your faith that local rumors and people would be important for some gods, like an inquisitor of Cayden looking for slavers. Mechanically it bugs my OCD that they have every other knowledge skill that involves things you fight on that list.

On the opposite end I find it odd that they have every knowledge skill. It makes sense for the wizard and investigator since they have to study a lot and it at least makes mechanical sense for the bard since they get bardic knowledge, but I don't get why the summoner has all of the knowledge skills. It would make a lot more sense for them to just have arcana and planes, possibly nature, but defiantly not things like engineering. Of course I might be missing something since I don't own all of the lore book.


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I always thought barbarians should get stealth for flavor. It's kind of assumed that they are hunters as well as warriors which requires stealth and Conan himself was no stranger to moving silently.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ranger doesn't have the Bluff or Sense Motive skills but his Favored Enemy bonus can be applied to them. In some cases, he can have the Favored Enemy but not the knowledge skill that tells him about that enemy.

Examples: Magical Beast uses Arcana, Outsider would use Planes.


Fighters and perception (guards).

Barbarians should be illiterate again :p


Paulicus wrote:

Fighters and perception (guards).

Barbarians should be illiterate again :p

I agree re: fighters and Perception. It's a rather important skill when, you know, fighting.


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BretI wrote:

Ranger doesn't have the Bluff or Sense Motive skills but his Favored Enemy bonus can be applied to them. In some cases, he can have the Favored Enemy but not the knowledge skill that tells him about that enemy.

Examples: Magical Beast uses Arcana, Outsider would use Planes.

Easy houserule (which I may implement since I just thought of it): Ranger gets the relevant Knowledge skill for his Favored Enemy as a bonus class skill.


Yeah, Fighters and Perception hurts.
I think some kind of Knowledge (Tactics) or similar would be nice to have, for great battles and all that. Sometimes Profession (Soldier) takes that place, but tactical and battle prepare seems more like a Knowledge than a Profession to me.

Edit: Error between Office and Profession. Many years since I open the Spanish version of 3.5, but some customs are hard to kill.


Profession(Soldier) is used in mass combat rules, and that is a fighter class skill.


I think only scout-like classes (ranger, various archetypes, etc) and the alchemist should get Perception as a class skill.


Why?

It doesn't make any sense that only those classes (especially with the Alchemist tossed in there randomly) are trained in detecting enemies and seeing things. EVERY combatant needs it.

You don't see Conan or anybody else you could stat up as a Fighter constantly getting shanked mercilessly because a dude snuck up on him.


@Rynjin

The scout-like classes (and archetypes) should be better at Perception than their un-scout-like counterparts. Alchemists are scientists, who observe the universe to uncover how it works.

Conan the "Barbarian" has levels in rogue, which it a scout-like class.


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So hand them abilities which enhance Perception (which all of them do...Rangers are better in Favored Terrain and against their Favored Enemy, Rogues and Slayers can see Traps better, Slayers get bonuses against their Target, and so on), not make everyone worse to make them look better.


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Modern scientists (particularly chemists and other physical science types) go to great lengths to isolate things so that they can observe them in a small controlled environment. This is not the same as the general perception skill.


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Commoners have perception as a class skill...

At this point perception may just need to go the way of concentration and scale off BAB or something.


I think the Slayer should get Diplomacy; or, maybe better, an in-class bonus to gathering information. It seems appropriate for an assassin that studies her targets before striking.


Arachnofiend wrote:
I think the Slayer should get Diplomacy; or, maybe better, an in-class bonus to gathering information. It seems appropriate for an assassin that studies her targets before striking.

You and everyone else in the Playtest, both versions. I think that was the most asked for change for the class.


@Rynjin

Cool, the ranger and rogue (the most scout-like classes) already have it on their class skills list already anyway. Why should a fighter (the front line soldier) be as good at perception as the ranger (the scout)?

@Bardarok

Excellent point, but they still observe more than a common "do as you're told" soldier.


Commoners should only have profession as a class skill. All adventurers should not have profession as a class skill.
Your primary profession is not baker, smith, or onion merchant your an adventurer gods damn you!

Fighters should have kowladge warfare a unique skill which allows them to identify weaknesses of enemies as if they had the appropriate knowledge skill and do all that profession(soldier) stuff.


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Barathos wrote:

@Rynjin

Cool, the ranger and rogue (the most scout-like classes) already have it on their class skills list already anyway. Why should a fighter (the front line soldier) be as good at perception as the ranger (the scout)?

Why shouldn't they?

It's not as if being observant is some esoteric skill only certain people can learn. And Rangers are better at it in certain places and against certain things (Terrain and enemy familiarity giving them an advantage, fluff-wise), so the Fighter ISN'T as good in many situations.


@Rynjin

Anyone can learn it, but scout-like classes are usually better at it. You're right about them being better at it than the fighter from just the class abilities though. The fighter definitely needs more class skills. Besides Perception, what else could a fighter get?


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Common idea rearrange skill groups:
Athletics (Str) (jump, climb, swim)
Acrobatics (Dex) (tumble, escape artist, balance)


Rynjin wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I think the Slayer should get Diplomacy; or, maybe better, an in-class bonus to gathering information. It seems appropriate for an assassin that studies her targets before striking.
You and everyone else in the Playtest, both versions. I think that was the most asked for change for the class.

I tried to get it in also. If you are an assassin then you need to be able to find your target. It makes no sense for them not to have it.


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Barathos wrote:

@Rynjin

Cool, the ranger and rogue (the most scout-like classes) already have it on their class skills list already anyway. Why should a fighter (the front line soldier) be as good at perception as the ranger (the scout)?

@Bardarok

Excellent point, but they still observe more than a common "do as you're told" soldier.

Fighters are not just front line hit point bags. They also serve as the military, police, bodyguards, guards in general, and other things that need to be able to protect/guard people and things. Keeping those sneaky thieves/assassins/etc out is why they should have it.


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Even if everyone had perception as a class skill they still won't notice a stealth focused character most of the time.


Bardarok wrote:

Commoners should only have profession as a class skill. All adventurers should not have profession as a class skill.

Your primary profession is not baker, smith, or onion merchant your an adventurer gods damn you!

You weren't always an adventurer though. Really that skill is there for either for ship stuff (sailor) or for a point for backstory if you care that much. It makes sense for a barbarian to not have it.....although it makes sense for a bard to not have it as well because performance checks are your main source of money you besides...you know...ADVENTURE!!!


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Knowledge: Local should be a class skill for everyone. Why should Fighters know about aberrations but not about humanoids?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Class skill bonuses don't matter that much. If you want your fighter to know about the local humanoids, just put a rank in it.


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For the average Int dumping fighter, that's not going to lead to a very impressive knowledge skill. "I put all my skill ranks into it, and now I have a 50-50 chance of being able to tell a dwarf from an elf."

Most people focus on class skills when making characters. That means there's a good chance that no-one in the group will have any ranks of Knowledge: Local.


HyperMissingno wrote:
Bardarok wrote:

Commoners should only have profession as a class skill. All adventurers should not have profession as a class skill.

Your primary profession is not baker, smith, or onion merchant your an adventurer gods damn you!
You weren't always an adventurer though. Really that skill is there for either for ship stuff (sailor) or for a point for backstory if you care that much. It makes sense for a barbarian to not have it.....although it makes sense for a bard to not have it as well because performance checks are your main source of money you besides...you know...ADVENTURE!!!

I'm not that the skill shouldn't exist. I'm saying that the default should not be that every adventure has every profession skill as a class skill. Maybe every player gets one as a class skill due to their background but that's it.

Same goes for craft with exceptions for craft alchemy for casters and rogues and craft weapons and armor for martials.


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I've almost been inclined to just have your standard class skill list, and then just give each class one "floating" unassigned class skill that they can choose at creation for customization purposes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
For the average Int dumping fighter, that's not going to lead to a very impressive knowledge skill. "I put all my skill ranks into it, and now I have a 50-50 chance of being able to tell a dwarf from an elf."

If your average fighter can't hit DC 5 on a Take 10, something is seriously wrong. Because he certainly isn't my average fighter.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
For the average Int dumping fighter, that's not going to lead to a very impressive knowledge skill. "I put all my skill ranks into it, and now I have a 50-50 chance of being able to tell a dwarf from an elf."
If your average fighter can't hit DC 5 on a Take 10, something is seriously wrong. Because he certainly isn't my average fighter.

That means that fighter is a mental vegetable, with an intelligence of less than zero. All kidding aside, I don't think too many people have their fighter literally have the intellect of a celery stalk.

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I can't agree with the "Everybody should get Perception!" idea, it kind of defeats the purpose of even having it as a skill. And no, not everyone maxes it.

Remember the difference between class/non class skill is only a +3. If it's that important to you take a trait for it, or take Skill Focus. Boom, difference gone.

A 5th level fighter who maxes out Perception has a better bonus than a first level ranger(if Wis was equal). It's possible to be good at these skills without them being class skills, it just takes more effort. I'm okay with that.

The question is "Should every example of this class be talented at this skill if they put any small effort into learning it?" I can easily think of fighter examples that wouldn't be good at Perception. How many times have we seen movies where professional soldiers walk right into an ambush completely unaware?

If you're playing an Int-dumped fighter you've made choice to pretty much ignore skills anyway. Which skills are or aren't class skills doesn't matter much when you're rocking 1 skill point/level.

It is a little odd that inquisitors don't get Know(local) but most humanoids are DC5-10 to ID anyway so it's not too big a deal. Again they can just pop a rank in it to make bigger checks and rely on their class feature bonus.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
ryric wrote:
I can't agree with the "Everybody should get Perception!" idea, it kind of defeats the purpose of even having it as a skill. And no, not everyone maxes it.

Nor does everyone put ranks in it, so everyone having it as a class skill wouldn't defeat the purpose, as not everyone would be getting that +3.

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I think it's weird that paladins don't get Intimidate.

Liberty's Edge

Demiurge 1138 wrote:
I think it's weird that paladins don't get Intimidate.

Quite right. How can you expect to put the fear of the deities in your enemies otherwise ?

Also the Ranger should have Acrobatics, as befits a frontliner that is forbidden from using Heavy armor.

Scarab Sages

The black raven wrote:
Quite right. How can you expect to put the fear of the deities in your enemies otherwise ?

With my massive Charisma, of course.


Honestly, I disagree with every class skill list in that I disagree with the concept of class skills in general. Just let everybody take what they want with either no bonus, or the same bonus.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

Commoners have perception as a class skill...

At this point perception may just need to go the way of concentration and scale off BAB or something.

I've definitely considered this myself, along with Spellcraft. Spellcraft is pretty much a skill point tax for every 6 or 9 level caster.

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RDM42 wrote:
I've almost been inclined to just have your standard class skill list, and then just give each class one "floating" unassigned class skill that they can choose at creation for customization purposes.

Yeah, and as it is, you can always take a trait to make something a class skill. If you don't want that, you can dip into a class that has it. Or take a feat that makes a couple different skills into class skills. Since most people are probably not going to take too many cross-class skills that you can't absorb into your skill list in one way or another, having class skill lists at all at this point in the game is kind of pointless. Just pick whatever skills you want. They're all class skills.


Zhayne wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

Commoners have perception as a class skill...

At this point perception may just need to go the way of concentration and scale off BAB or something.

I've definitely considered this myself, along with Spellcraft. Spellcraft is pretty much a skill point tax for every 6 or 9 level caster.

I'd disagree on it being a tax since you can use spellcraft for several things. It lets you know what the enemy is casting, lets you make magic items, lets you copy spells, and informs you of what magic items you got. Usually taxes do very little for you and are required for good stuff, I'm looking at you Point Blank Shot!


I agree with the Black Raven. Barbarians having Acrobatics while the Ranger does not seems ... off.


HyperMissingno wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

Commoners have perception as a class skill...

At this point perception may just need to go the way of concentration and scale off BAB or something.

I've definitely considered this myself, along with Spellcraft. Spellcraft is pretty much a skill point tax for every 6 or 9 level caster.
I'd disagree on it being a tax since you can use spellcraft for several things. It lets you know what the enemy is casting, lets you make magic items, lets you copy spells, and informs you of what magic items you got. Usually taxes do very little for you and are required for good stuff, I'm looking at you Point Blank Shot!

Primarily, though, it's used to level-block feats (aka 'X ranks in Spellcraft).


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
I agree with the Black Raven. Barbarians having Acrobatics while the Ranger does not seems ... off.

This is because (I'd guess) that Acrobatics somehow covers jumping.

I really do think an Athletics/Acrobatics split would be beneficial.


ryric wrote:


The question is "Should every example of this class be talented at this skill if they put any small effort into learning it?"

That's a terrible question to ask though, because you could apply that reasoning to basically every skill for every class. There'll be at least one or two examples of someone who fits the archetype but shouldn't be good at that skill.


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Honestly I think people should be able to just pick their own class skills at 1st level.


Zhayne wrote:

I've definitely considered this myself, along with Spellcraft. Spellcraft is pretty much a skill point tax for every 6 or 9 level caster.

Just smash Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana together.

And while you're at it swim+jump+climb into one skill.


I dunno. I'm a good swimmer and a passable climber, but I can't jump worth a damn.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And of course there are many examples of traits that give you additional class skills, representing your character's backstory and life experience. It's easy for a fighter (or anyone) to get perception as a class skill.

Not to mention dipping a level into another class. Most of my fighters have a level of rogue early on. It's too good to pass up, even if I take a BAB hit to do it.


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Witches dont get Survival. The hermit class. We always joke thats why they are rare. Most of them die out in the wilderness of starvation.

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