Eye of Dread

Tuesday, June 11, 2019

One of the most wide-reaching events to become the baseline assumption of the Pathfinder setting between first and second editions is the Whispering Tyrant's escape from his centuries-old prison to once again terrorize the nations of the living. The specifics of how he breaks free from Gallowspire and the direct results of that escape play out in the Tyrant's Grasp Adventure Path, which wraps up next month with Midwives to Death. Needless to say, things for the lands on Lake Encarthan's western coast are NOT. GOOD.

Illustration by Federico Musetti

As we've hinted at with the name of the most recent set of Pathfinder Battles miniatures, Ruins of Lastwall (available now!), the Knights of Ozem who stood vigil over Gallowspire since the Shining Crusade met an unfortunate end, and are now scattered throughout the Inner Sea region, licking their wounds and trying to muster support for taking the battle back to the Isle of Terror, where Tar-Baphon has made his new headquarters. For more information on what became of Lastwall, check out the Tyrant's Grasp Adventure Path. Without giving too many spoilers of the whys and hows, I'll just say that what was formerly Lastwall is now the undead-haunted realm known as the Gravelands. Things sound totally awesome there, right?

Illustrations by Mirco Paganessi and Rogier van de Beek

To the south, the conflict between the nations of Molthune and Nirmathas has cooled considerably, thanks to the events of the Ironfang Invasion Adventure Path and the advent of a larger threat in the region. Despite the ceasefire between the warring nations, tensions remain high, and agents of the Whispering Way would certainly love to see the people of both nations return to fighting one another rather than directing their military efforts toward the armies of the undead.

Illustration by Ksenia Kozhevnikova

The other notable result of the Ironfang Invasion Adventure Path was the establishment of a new hobgoblin nation in the Mindspin Mountains. General Azaersi rules Oprak from the newly founded capital of Hunthul, but the mountains of Golarion's surface aren't the full extent of the fledgling nation's territory. Thanks to a powerful artifact giving the hobgoblins access to the natural resources of the Plane of Earth, the kingdom also stretches into the elemental planes. Azaersi's expansionist tendencies have been redirected toward mercantile growth, and if she gets her way, Oprak could soon become more of an economic threat to its neighbors than it is a military threat.

Illustrations by Fabio Gorla and Rogier van de Beek

With the fall of Lastwall and the rise of the Whispering Tyrant's third period of rule, the orcs of Belkzen have broken from tradition and refused to rally to the lich's side. That places them in the unfortunate role of being among the first bulwarks against the undead's expansion beyond the Gravelands and will try the governing abilities of the region's new ruler, Overlord Ardax the White-Hair. I'm sure a nation of disparate orc tribes will do fine in uniting to quell the burgeoning threat to their south and east. What could go wrong?

Players whose characters hail from this region will find eight new backgrounds including cursed family, onyx trader, and Whispering Way scion, as well as the Lastwall sentry archetype!

Illustration by Ainur Salimova

Be sure to check this spot in two days for the third entry in our ongoing series of Tales of Lost Omens flash fiction when Pathfinder Tales veteran Chris A. Jackson debuts the first of three stories with an exploration of a character cursed by blood to face one of Ustalav's most enigmatic haunts. Next week, we'll follow the Golden Road to see where it might lead your second edition campaigns. Until then, Pathfinders, don't get caught in the Tyrant's grasp!

Mark Moreland
Franchise Manager

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Lost Omens
101 to 150 of 153 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

3 people marked this as a favorite.

If the final PF2 AP was something where the stakes were "So-and-So will end all life on Golarion" we would know the outcome by the fact that Pathfinder 2nd edition exists (we also kind of know the outcome by the fact that Starfinder exits and Golarion doesn't have spaceships yet, so it's safe.)

Plus just knowing how serialized storytelling works, you just don't, in the same storym introduce a baddie who has only been talked about previously and immediately permanently defeat that baddie, unless you want said baddie to come across like a chump.

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Thomas Seitz wrote:
Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

I mean, he was imprisoned there for a really long time. I know if I'd been locked in a tower for a few hundred years I wouldn't be particularly eager to go hang out in its shadow anytime soon.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My read of that was just James saying that Tar-Baphon is indeed killable, not that he'd be killed at the end of Tyrant's Grasp.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I read that and say "yeah, that makes sense, if you play 'Int 36' as 'you always lose because they're smarter than you', then there's no point in playing the game".

Which is basically what he said:

Quote:
I'm just saying that if a GM plays a character in a way that removes player agency entirely from the game, that's frustrating. A great old one can't be killed, but it can certainly be defeated.


9 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I can't help but feel the outrage must be put on a bit by people who don't want to like anything PF2 related. I mean coming into a post about changes to the setting complaining about spoilers is like going to a reddit thread titled "The future of the MCU now we know Endgame's events" and complaining about Endgame spoilers.

As for making canon choices that may conflict with home canon. That is inevitable. And I rather the make A choice over trying to keep things open with discussions on all the possible outcomes. Vamp 5e and Mage 20 did that and instead of my new players being able to read the book and know how things stand they just came out confused.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cat-thulhu wrote:

Sorry got to agree with others here. This post is not well timed, to spoil the current AP in this fashion is in poor taste. You can play it down, act like people are having nerd rage or belittle their feelings on the matter all you want, but that still doesn’t excuse the fact that Paizo shouldn’t have done it.

It’s like that guy that walks out of the blockbuster movie telling everyone what happened. Yeah you may have known it was going to happen but it still affects your enjoyment of the film. I hope my players don’t read this blog.

On a different note. When do the minis previews start again?

Linkified for your convenience.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
{. . .}
Reckless wrote:
I'm frankly more bothered by New Thassilon and it's assumption that players just roll over for Sorshen's schemes.

Sorshen is basically your most powerful ally in that AP, CN in alignment, and owes you big by the end of it (meaning that her ruling a country is super good for you on both a personal and professional level). Also a 20th level/Mythic Tier 10 character (meaning that the PCs collectively are likely to lose a straight fight with her).

{. . .}

Well, admittedly Sorshen IS canonically specialized in getting people to roll over for her . . . .

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Amaranthine Witch wrote:
Am I the only one that dislikes nearly all of this?
I mean, obviously not, but that’s to be expected. Change is always a mixed bag.

Shouldn't that be: Change is always a mixed Gorbacz?

I'll show myself out now. Quietly.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hmm does seem that lastwall must get really wreaked in the last two books of the Ap then.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

Even Tar-Baphon doesn't want Ustalav. That place is a mess. A lich has to have some standards after all.

I am curious about how much of a setback he has at the end of the AP. I mean, we know he's not destroyed entirely, and doesn't succeed in becoming a god. But what's keeping him from just going and making another attempt to get to Absalom? Is he currently expanding territory? Is he maybe confined to his island?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Nice to see the lore marching forward.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Doktor Weasel wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

Even Tar-Baphon doesn't want Ustalav. That place is a mess. A lich has to have some standards after all.

I am curious about how much of a setback he has at the end of the AP. I mean, we know he's not destroyed entirely, and doesn't succeed in becoming a god. But what's keeping him from just going and making another attempt to get to Absalom? Is he currently expanding territory? Is he maybe confined to his island?

My guess? He is personally very powerful, but that doesn't mean he has infinite resources. No doubt his attempt on Absalom involves more than just him walking alone through the city; his defeat there probably costs him a bunch of high level minions and maybe even an army.

If it didn't work with all that help, he's not likely to think it'll work without.

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kevin Mack wrote:
Hmm does seem that lastwall must get really wreaked in the last two books of the Ap then.

That happens in

:
third
book actually :p

My guess based on first three books on what happens to Tar-Babhon?

:
Heroes somehow turn his nuke back onto him so he destroys himself and his army with it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I mean, there's a whole graveyard of siege engines in the Cairnlands and another of sunken ships near the port - Absalom is a notoriously tough nut to crack... Tar-Baphon could be the one to do it, but it wouldn't be a trivial enterprise for him either, I believe.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

One thing about liches is that they are seldom in a hurry. What happens in the latest AP is probably the first plan Tar-Baphon concocted during his imprisonment. One imagines he has others and is willing to play the long game.

Like in particular he's not going to go "All In" right after escaping his imprisonment and risk permanent destruction, even if it's a very good plan that's spoiled largely by a series of flukes.

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Doktor Weasel wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I'm sort of concerned that now 100% of the spooky stuff in Ustalav is going to have to revolve around their lich neighbor, when there's plenty of unrelated spooky stuff all over (there's vampires in the sewers and werewolves in the forest!) Like something like Strange Aeons should be allowed to happen without intersecting with Tar-Baphon.
He certainly will loom large, this was his old stomping ground after all. But I suspect Ustalav will remain the land of gothic horror in all of it's forms. The Gravelands will take a bit of the undead focus from it, but I think it'll be a different style. With the Gravelands as the land of the Zombie Apocalypse, instead of general horror. I figure that's why Lastwall was destroyed instead of Ustalav. It preserves Ustalav for the other horror stories.

Like today's web fiction!


Joana wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Marco Massoudi wrote:

When i wrote that if i were a Lich with an int score of 36 no one would ever find my phylactery, James Jacobs answered that if there would be no way to find T-B's phylactery there wouldn't be any point in making this AP.

I disagreed and said the pcs could just defeat him.
He heavily implied that that wasn't the case and that the AP would finish him once and for all.
Source?

Here and following. (Note that, since the bug in the Product Discussion threads hasn't been fixed yet, the link won't take you to the correct post; it's #37.)

I don't get the "heavy implication" Marco did from James's responses, however, just, as Cori Marie said, that James wasn't going to confirm or deny the insistence that the PCs couldn't actually kill Tar-Barphon in the AP.

(Marco, you should feel vindicated: you were absolutely right in your original prediction.)

Yup, Marco called it - and just wait until you read Book 5 of Tyrants Grasp...we learn pretty much what's in store, and the endgame goal, for the PC's.

And without a certain sidebar kicking into play via GM fiat, frankly, the endgame kinda sucks. Hoping, but not optimistic, about how Book 6 plays out. Seems more of a "hey, lets set Golarion up for 2E, finale" rather than ending the 1E Adventure Paths on a high note.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I mean, I would have liked Hell's Rebels to resolve in the complete dissolution of Cheliax (which it could have, very easily), but they weren't going to do that either.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

What I'm dying to hear about is Numeria.

Because we...:

...see Cassandelee become a demigod at the end of Iron Gods, and we see she's a core-deity in the far future of Starfinder. I want to see the in-between!

Paizo Employee Designer

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Hey Eye of Dread fans! For tonight's Arcane Mark, we're interviewing Eye of Dread section author (and Tyrant's Grasp and Extinction Curse AP developer) Ron Lundeen! Check it out in about 90 minutes. (7 PM PDT)

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hey Mark, will that be available VOD? I really want to watch it, but already have plans at 7 :'(

Paizo Employee Designer

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Twitch will keep it up for a few weeks, same link, then click videos!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
MaxAstro wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

Even Tar-Baphon doesn't want Ustalav. That place is a mess. A lich has to have some standards after all.

I am curious about how much of a setback he has at the end of the AP. I mean, we know he's not destroyed entirely, and doesn't succeed in becoming a god. But what's keeping him from just going and making another attempt to get to Absalom? Is he currently expanding territory? Is he maybe confined to his island?

My guess? He is personally very powerful, but that doesn't mean he has infinite resources. No doubt his attempt on Absalom involves more than just him walking alone through the city; his defeat there probably costs him a bunch of high level minions and maybe even an army.

If it didn't work with all that help, he's not likely to think it'll work without.

If he just needs to get to the Starstone, then actually walking alone through the city might very well be the best way to go. He can easily magic up some disguise for himself to look like a normal person, then once he gets to the temple, go do his thing. I haven't read the AP (mostly skimmed part 1) so probably his plan is more complex than just go take the test of the Starstone. But just walking in disguised would get a lot less resistance than marching a huge army of the undead across the continent.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Doktor Weasel wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
Look all I know is Mark confirmed that Ustalav won't ENTIRELY fall under Tar Barphon's grasp. Probably because he thinks there's nothing left there for him.

Even Tar-Baphon doesn't want Ustalav. That place is a mess. A lich has to have some standards after all.

I am curious about how much of a setback he has at the end of the AP. I mean, we know he's not destroyed entirely, and doesn't succeed in becoming a god. But what's keeping him from just going and making another attempt to get to Absalom? Is he currently expanding territory? Is he maybe confined to his island?

My guess? He is personally very powerful, but that doesn't mean he has infinite resources. No doubt his attempt on Absalom involves more than just him walking alone through the city; his defeat there probably costs him a bunch of high level minions and maybe even an army.

If it didn't work with all that help, he's not likely to think it'll work without.

If he just needs to get to the Starstone, then actually walking alone through the city might very well be the best way to go. He can easily magic up some disguise for himself to look like a normal person, then once he gets to the temple, go do his thing. I haven't read the AP (mostly skimmed part 1) so probably his plan is more complex than just go take the test of the Starstone. But just walking in disguised would get a lot less resistance than marching a huge army of the undead across the continent.

I imagine his plan involves actually taking the Starstone and THEN ascending. He can the control access to godhood.

Dark Archive

I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Doktor Weasel wrote:


If he just needs to get to the Starstone, then actually walking alone through the city might very well be the best way to go. He can easily magic up some disguise for himself to look like a normal person, then once he gets to the temple, go do his thing. I haven't read the AP (mostly skimmed part 1) so probably his plan is more complex than just go take the test of the Starstone. But just walking in disguised would get a lot less resistance than marching a huge army of the undead across the continent.

I do not think he is the kind of guy to do that. Hiding himself or showing up and showing why he is the big bad? I would think the second option would be more likley^^


^Well, he would have an example to follow: Norgorber.


Gorbacz wrote:
I guess they all wrote Very Angry Letters to Marvel once it was blidningly obvious that most of Thanos' decimation from Infinity War will be undone in Endgame.

Wait. Wut? What I thought they would spinelessly do they spinelessly did? Oh noes mean bag of meanness, you totes spoil'd what I already thought. Now I need to rageflip a tablequit somewhere. Or something.

Seriously, thanks tho'. Now I know I can watch it and be happy I was right about how anticlimactic it would be.

Careful: spoilers ahead:

Gorbacz wrote:
Oh well. Nerds. Making them happy is a thankless task.

And impossible.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
I guess they all wrote Very Angry Letters to Marvel once it was blidningly obvious that most of Thanos' decimation from Infinity War will be undone in Endgame.
Wait. Wut? What I thought they would spinelessly do they spinelessly did? Oh noes mean bag of meanness, you totes spoil'd what I already thought.

Yeah, they did it a couple decades ago in the comics.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p

The idea that Aroden explicitly designed the test to exclude TB isn't something I considered, but I really like the idea.

I agree that TB probably sees the test as beneath him. "I'm not taking some 'test' to prove my worth. Literally surviving being smote by a GOD is test enough. I am TAR-BAPHON AND I TAKE WHAT I WANT!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA." (villain monologue)


4 people marked this as a favorite.
j b 200 wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p

The idea that Aroden explicitly designed the test to exclude TB isn't something I considered, but I really like the idea.

I agree that TB probably sees the test as beneath him. "I'm not taking some 'test' to prove my worth. Literally surviving being smote by a GOD is test enough. I am TAR-BAPHON AND I TAKE WHAT I WANT!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA." (villain monologue)

I'm sad Tar-Baphon doesn't have a mustache because that'd be a perfect moment for twirling it.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Roswynn wrote:
j b 200 wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p

The idea that Aroden explicitly designed the test to exclude TB isn't something I considered, but I really like the idea.

I agree that TB probably sees the test as beneath him. "I'm not taking some 'test' to prove my worth. Literally surviving being smote by a GOD is test enough. I am TAR-BAPHON AND I TAKE WHAT I WANT!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA." (villain monologue)

I'm sad Tar-Baphon doesn't have a mustache because that'd be a perfect moment for twirling it.

*casts presidigitation to summon unrealistic moustache. twirls it* You’re welcome.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm excited for the blog post that tells us what happened with Irrisen!

Liberty's Edge

6 people marked this as a favorite.
OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
I guess they all wrote Very Angry Letters to Marvel once it was blidningly obvious that most of Thanos' decimation from Infinity War will be undone in Endgame.
Wait. Wut? What I thought they would spinelessly do they spinelessly did? Oh noes mean bag of meanness, you totes spoil'd what I already thought. Now I need to rageflip a tablequit somewhere. Or something.

I think you may be surprised by how that movie actually goes. The deaths are mostly undone, yes, but there's a fair amount of meaningful and lasting consequences from Infinity War going forward.

OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0 wrote:
Seriously, thanks tho'. Now I know I can watch it and be happy I was right about how anticlimactic it would be.

Anticlimactic is not how I'd describe Endgame.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The other thing to keep in mind about Ironfang Invasion is the AP is all about making allies. There are so many things you can fight but can instead befriend. Generally, the Legion itself seems immune to these charms, but there are pretty significant factors making it possible from the top down.

Aldarc wrote:
It's not the spoilers that I mind, but having Tar Baphon essentially free on the Isle of Dread after the AP does not seem like a psychologically rewarding payoff. You "defeat him" much in the same manner of a Saturday morning cartoon where the villain gets away after you thwart their plans and plots their revenge for later.

The first page of the player's guide to the AP says:

Theme: Survival Horror
The overall theme of Tyrant’s Grasp is survival horror. The player characters will often find themselves in desperate circumstances with limited resources, particularly during the first few adventures. Terrible tragedies are destined to occur as the events of Tyrant’s Grasp unfold; often, your objective isn’t to prevent these disasters, but to survive them and to display heroism and resourcefulness in their wake. Circumstances will compel the player characters to leave Roslar’s Coffer much sooner than you might expect, so characters prepared to travel across Lastwall and beyond are the best fit for this Adventure Path.

Players are pretty much told to expect the worst from the outset. If that's not satisfying to your group, survival horror isn't your jam and you should play a different AP. I had this issue with my players in Carrion Crown and we abandoned it.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Roswynn wrote:
I'm sad Tar-Baphon doesn't have a mustache because that'd be a perfect moment for twirling it.

Regenerating his nose is clearly just Step One in Tar-Baphon's plan to grow an evil mustache.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It would would be really impossible to do both "survival horror" and "you folks are powerful enough to stand toe to toe with someone who killed Arazni (who has 8 mythic tiers *now* and is also less powerful than before she died)" in the same story.

Like WotR put the PCs in some of the most inhospitable conditions imaginable, and it was still a bit of a romp because mythic is that powerful.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
j b 200 wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
I think he assumes that Aroden would have left anti Tar-Babhon traps in the Cathedral so he just wants to blow the Cathedral up :p

The idea that Aroden explicitly designed the test to exclude TB isn't something I considered, but I really like the idea.

I agree that TB probably sees the test as beneath him. "I'm not taking some 'test' to prove my worth. Literally surviving being smote by a GOD is test enough. I am TAR-BAPHON AND I TAKE WHAT I WANT!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA." (villain monologue)

Tar-Baphon just wants to make his dad, Skeletor, proud of him.


Big Lemon wrote:

What I'm dying to hear about is Numeria.

** spoiler omitted **

So am I. As peer the Broken Lands preview, the church of Casandalee seems to be taking the position of the League in helping the Black Sovereign ruling the nation (it wasn't confirmed, but heavily implied).

Given how technology has spread in Numeria, the goddess followers seems as the most fit organization to handle the situation.

Shadow Lodge

Aenigma wrote:
I thought Azaersi hates the civilized races very much. She wants to avenge her brethren by killing and enslaving all humans, elves, dwarves, et cetera.

Considering that it is thoroughly industrial and mercantile, Oprak conquering its neighbors would be a progressive outcome. Nirmathas is utterly backwards, and Molthune and Nidal have so far been unable to overcome the despotic bureaucracies (military and theocratic respectively) that stand as fetters on their development.

Liberty's Edge

5 people marked this as a favorite.
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Aenigma wrote:
I thought Azaersi hates the civilized races very much. She wants to avenge her brethren by killing and enslaving all humans, elves, dwarves, et cetera.
Considering that it is thoroughly industrial and mercantile, Oprak conquering its neighbors would be a progressive outcome. Nirmathas is utterly backwards, and Molthune and Nidal have so far been unable to overcome the despotic bureaucracies (military and theocratic respectively) that stand as fetters on their development.

Progressive in what sense? I don't think conquering people minding their own business is very progressive by most definitions. Nor would I consider Nirmathas 'backwards' in most meaningful senses of the term.

Shadow Lodge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Progressive in what sense? I don't think conquering people minding their own business is very progressive by most definitions. Nor would I consider Nirmathas 'backwards' in most meaningful senses of the term.

Progressive in the sense of developing the productive capacities of the land and its people, and of unleashing the people's cultural and intellectual genius.

The fostering of big industry on the hobgoblin model is progressive in the former sense, and while its use of unfree labor sets back the latter for a time - potentially a long time - it also creates the conditions for its full flowering later. Namely, labor will tend to emancipate itself over time, first from literal and then from figurative bondage.

Oprak is also a competitor that cannot be kept from any market by tariff, because it does not rely on fixed ports of entry to bring its goods to market. Competition with it will therefore necessarily spur technological and scientific development in its competitors' productive sectors, if their markets are not conquered outright.

Liberty's Edge

8 people marked this as a favorite.
zimmerwald1915 wrote:

Progressive in the sense of developing the productive capacities of the land and its people, and of unleashing the people's cultural and intellectual genius.

The fostering of big industry on the hobgoblin model is progressive in the former sense, and while its use of unfree labor sets back the latter for a time - potentially a long time - it also creates the conditions for its full flowering later. Namely, labor will tend to emancipate itself over time, first from literal and then from figurative bondage.

Okay, we're dealing with a profound difference in world view and philosophy here. I'm just gonna note that I strongly disagree, especially with the last bit. Economic and technological progress in no way inherently leads to 'labor emancipating itself'.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Oprak is also a competitor that cannot be kept from any market by tariff, because it does not rely on fixed ports of entry to bring its goods to market. Competition with it will therefore necessarily spur technological and scientific development in its competitors' productive sectors, if their markets are not conquered outright.

Here, I agree. Oprak as an economic powerhouse will have a variety of interesting and useful effects on the economy of at least the Inner Sea Region and quite possibly places much further afield.

I just strongly disagree that forcible conquest by an authoritarian regime, even a technologically or economically more advanced one (and we actually have no evidence of the former), is usually gonna result in good things for anyone. It usually does not.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I mean, if the recent history of Golarion is any indication, very little progress actually occurs without player characters getting involved.

Like Galt hasn't gotten their act together and won't until we put an AP there. Taldor had been in decline for nearly a thousand years before the PCs got involved. In addition to Eutropia, the PCs also put people on the (metaphorical) thrones in Irrisen, the Shackles, Ravounel, Minkai, Numeria, and I'm probably missing a few. Slavery was alive and well in cosmopolitan Absalom for thousands of years before our PFS friends put a stop to it.

Shadow Lodge

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, if the recent history of Golarion is any indication, very little progress actually occurs without player characters getting involved.

This is empirically true. However, it is not a useful observation.

Quote:
Slavery was alive and well in cosmopolitan Absalom for thousands of years before our PFS friends put a stop to it.

Slavery was in fact illegal up until 4635, which is less than 100 years before the start date of PF2. That doesn't mean it wasn't practiced, but you could get in trouble for it.

Its reinstatement is presented as part of the general social retrogression that swept the Inner Sea in the 4630s, which also included the securing of House Thrune's rule in Cheliax.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

...I feel like I have serious reservations about the opinions of anyone who feels the need to use the term "unfree labor".

Or, for that matter, would argue that conquering another country would be 'for their own good' in some way.

Shadow Lodge

MaxAstro wrote:

...I feel like I have serious reservations about the opinions of anyone who feels the need to use the term "unfree labor".

Or, for that matter, would argue that conquering another country would be 'for their own good' in some way.

Would you prefer the term "forced labor?" That is the term used by the ILO to mean the same thing, and for good reason - the category of abridgements on the freedom of labor is broader than "slavery."


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Would you prefer the term "forced labor?"

I would actually, yes.

-----

Wild tangent: Am I the only person both confused and annoyed by the convention of putting punctuation inside quotations even when the punctuation is not part of the quotation? It can't just be me, right? Other people find that confusing also?

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
MaxAstro wrote:
Wild tangent: Am I the only person both confused and annoyed by the convention of putting punctuation inside quotations even when the punctuation is not part of the quotation? It can't just be me, right? Other people find that confusing also?

I'm not usually confused, but it's deeply annoying, yes. I try to avoid doing it as much as possible.

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager

6 people marked this as a favorite.
MaxAstro wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Would you prefer the term "forced labor?"

I would actually, yes.

-----

Wild tangent: Am I the only person both confused and annoyed by the convention of putting punctuation inside quotations even when the punctuation is not part of the quotation? It can't just be me, right? Other people find that confusing also?

It's one of the many variations between American and British English.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
Wild tangent: Am I the only person both confused and annoyed by the convention of putting punctuation inside quotations even when the punctuation is not part of the quotation? It can't just be me, right? Other people find that confusing also?
I'm not usually confused, but it's deeply annoying, yes. I try to avoid doing it as much as possible.

I don't like it either, but even worse is getting caught between people who are absolutely dead-set on opposite ideas about this.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Captain Morgan wrote:

The first page of the player's guide to the AP says:

Theme: Survival Horror
The overall theme of Tyrant’s Grasp is survival horror. The player characters will often find themselves in desperate circumstances with limited resources, particularly during the first few adventures. Terrible tragedies are destined to occur as the events of Tyrant’s Grasp unfold; often, your objective isn’t to prevent these disasters, but to survive them and to display heroism and resourcefulness in their wake. Circumstances will compel the player characters to leave Roslar’s Coffer much sooner than you might expect, so characters prepared to travel across Lastwall and beyond are the best fit for this Adventure Path.

Players are pretty much told to expect the worst from the outset. If that's not satisfying to your group, survival horror isn't your jam and you should play a different AP. I had this issue with my players in Carrion Crown and we abandoned it.

Sure, but this also sounds like this horror desperation theme is frontloaded more towards the beginning. Tragic disasters and such will occur later, but heroism is still a prevalent aspect. I don't necessarily think that an AP ending with confronting on a lich attacking Rome-Jerusalem to ascend to godhood would fall within the expectations of horror survival. That IMHO leans more heavily into Paizo's superheroic sort of feel.

Malk_Content wrote:

I can't help but feel the outrage must be put on a bit by people who don't want to like anything PF2 related. I mean coming into a post about changes to the setting complaining about spoilers is like going to a reddit thread titled "The future of the MCU now we know Endgame's events" and complaining about Endgame spoilers.

I wish that you would have helped but feeling that since I am a person who is otherwise thrilled about many things that are PF2 related. But I suppose it's easier for you to badmouth others than attempt a modicum of understanding.

101 to 150 of 153 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / Paizo Blog: Eye of Dread All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.