Can someone tell me just one thing? (spoilers probably)


Tyrant's Grasp

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What happens to Arazni at the end? I don't care about spoilers I just want to know.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

She achieves that which she was seeking.


That clears up nothing. Can someone just tell me


We don't know. The authors left Arazni's fate up in the air on purpose.

Book 4 Spoilers:
She wants to be detached from her phylactery and the Radiant Fire does that to some extent. She gets nuked, gets destroyed, and then...we don't know.

Paizo does that quite frequently. To paraphrase James Jacobs: "For every hook resolved we like to put two more in for people to use as they like."

Arazni's fate is a mystery, and it was intended to be so at this point in time.


does she turn good before she dies or is she still evil and just happens to hate the Tyrant like the PCs do?


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It sure seems like she dies.

And then the 2e lore so far in the LOWG seems to suggest otherwise, so I’m a little lost. My working theory is that her lich form is destroyed, freeing her to just be a goddess.


According to Book 4,

Book 4:
Those who worshipped her continue to receive spells and whatnot from her, so she can't have been totally removed from the universe - she must still on some level exist, and enough to act as a divine vessel - whether consciously or not.


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Yqatuba wrote:
does she turn good before she dies or is she still evil and just happens to hate the Tyrant like the PCs do?

I believe that is also intentionally left ambiguous. Though I suspect actual "good" may strain credulity past the breaking point. Less evil? I can see that. Neutral? That'd be a hard sell. My roadmap for her is to still be a bitter, old lich who is moderately surprised that doing the good thing worked out for her. Because remember, it was in 'doing the good thing' that she got into this mess in the first place. There are serious trust issues.

I'd say, from what we know, that she's not going to suddenly be altruistic and benevolent. It's too much at once. Maybe there's an AP somewhere in the future which will address that, once she makes her presence known to the world again.


So am I correct in thinking she didn't set off the radiant fire because she cares about the PCs and wants to save them but rather because she hates him (Tar-Baphon) so much?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

She didn't set of any of the Radiant Fires. Book 1's was set off by agents of the WW. Book 3's were planted there by agents of the WW. In Book 4, she uses her quasideity tricks to essentially time stop, message, greater teleport the entire party away before TB blows her up. The party are a means to an end for Aranzi 100%. She is still CE lich at that point and couldn't give a rat's ass whether the party dies, she just wants to stick it to TB for killing her, and indirectly contributing to her being Geb's lackey.


Also, is radiant fire supposed to be like a magic nuclear bomb? That's the impression I get.


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archmagi1 wrote:
She didn't set of any of the Radiant Fires. Book 1's was set off by agents of the WW. Book 3's were planted there by agents of the WW. In Book 4, she uses her quasideity tricks to essentially time stop, message, greater teleport the entire party away before TB blows her up. The party are a means to an end for Aranzi 100%. She is still CE lich at that point and couldn't give a rat's ass whether the party dies, she just wants to stick it to TB for killing her, and indirectly contributing to her being Geb's lackey.

I don't have the text in front of me, but there is a point where if the party has treated her well, it states that she likes them and wants them to succeed/survive. I suppose you could think of it as "like in a pet sort of way" as opposed to "Maybe they aren't all bad." sort of way.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Yqatuba wrote:
Also, is radiant fire supposed to be like a magic nuclear bomb? That's the impression I get.

The radiant fire is more of a bomb than a fireball. It is straight up an explosion of positive energy and negative energy. It wreaks havok on life, but doesn't have a huge shockwave like a nuke would (except maybe vs Gallowspire, which is a crater). Instead the negative energy affects structures in bad ways (decaying wood, settling stonework, dry-rotted bindings, etc) and the positive energy makes it weird (out of control plant and fungus growth). It would be like slapping the Planes of Positive Energy and Negative Energy into a mile wide burst both at the same time.


If she ever is redeemed I think Iomedae will have to help as they were both paladins of the same god who became gods. Also I wonder what ever happened to Geb.

Silver Crusade

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Geb is still around doing ghost wizard stuff.


Dumb question but were Arazni and Iomedae friends or even knew each other before she turned evil?

Silver Crusade

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I believe so.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Geb is still around doing ghost wizard stuff.

I really need to buy the new world guide... Is he still basically ignoring his country in favor of being paranoid about Nex returning or has he had to move into an actual rulership role now that his Queen/Regent has left the building?

Paizo Employee Developer

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archmagi1 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Geb is still around doing ghost wizard stuff.
I really need to buy the new world guide... Is he still basically ignoring his country in favor of being paranoid about Nex returning or has he had to move into an actual rulership role now that his Queen/Regent has left the building?

He's not only returned to active leadership, but his people are celebrating a grand renaissance of his leadership. He's also collecting rare components for a grand ceremonial ritual of a yet-unspecified type. But it can't be good.


Kasoh wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:
She didn't set of any of the Radiant Fires. Book 1's was set off by agents of the WW. Book 3's were planted there by agents of the WW. In Book 4, she uses her quasideity tricks to essentially time stop, message, greater teleport the entire party away before TB blows her up. The party are a means to an end for Aranzi 100%. She is still CE lich at that point and couldn't give a rat's ass whether the party dies, she just wants to stick it to TB for killing her, and indirectly contributing to her being Geb's lackey.
I don't have the text in front of me, but there is a point where if the party has treated her well, it states that she likes them and wants them to succeed/survive. I suppose you could think of it as "like in a pet sort of way" as opposed to "Maybe they aren't all bad." sort of way.

So, I skimmed through the book and this does seem to be the case: she, much to her amazement, acutally feels some concern for the PCs, which is part of why she teleports them away. This suggests that if she did survive somehow then she will probably show up in 2E at some point and, to paraphrase/steal a movie quote, perhaps there is some part of her that wants to rejoin the human race.

Liberty's Edge

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She's listed as a deity in the LOWG for PF2 (the NE deity of the abused, dignity, and unwilling undeath). She's stated to advise her followers to survive at all costs and never forgive those who've abused or abandoned them.

So she's around, and a less malevolent form of Evil than she may have been previously, but not exactly full of sweetness and light. I'd assume she's also got her sights set firmly on really screwing over the Whispering Tyrant and, particularly, Geb.

She may well also be dead, in the sense of not around corporeally. But her presence continues to be felt nonetheless.


I don't blame her for wanting revenge on Geb since her current state is as much his fault as the Whispering Tyrant (if not more). Also I thought the WT was destroyed at the end. Does 2e say he's back?

Silver Crusade

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That’s the thing about Liches, destroying them doesn’t do much. You gotta destroy their phylactery.


I thougth the Radiant Fire overrided their phylactery respawn ability, as when Aranzi got hit by it she didn't just respawn like a normal lich despite having her own Phylactery. I was thinking if liches killed this way still respawned it would be something like 1d10 YEARS to respawn rather than days.

Paizo Employee Developer

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Yqatuba wrote:
I don't blame her for wanting revenge on Geb since her current state is as much his fault as the Whispering Tyrant (if not more). Also I thought the WT was destroyed at the end. Does 2e say he's back?

Even at the end of Tyrant's Grasp, it's clear the Whispering Tyrant isn't destroyed for good. He's got a large presence in 2E, although at the moment he's laying low.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Aranzi's a special case, though. The books seem to tip-toe around a solid explanation, but they imply she figured a way out of lichdom through the RF. In my headcanon, however, I like to think it out like this:

When she goes to Roslar's Coffer before the first explosion, along with a portion of her Graveknight guards, to figure out what TB is whispering so much about, she gets destroyed. She reforms at her phylactery in Geb a few days later, and seizes the opportunity to steal said phylactery. This is why her Graveknights are so much more after her in Book 3/4. She is actually facing a chance to get away. Queue the RF at the end of Book 4, and her phylactery gets destroyed along with her.


2e is 10 years after 1e right? Perhaps the Tyrant rolled a 10 and therefore he's just recently respawned?

Silver Crusade

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P2 is kinda 10 years after the beginning of P1, it's not 10 years after Tyrant's Grasp.


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Well ok. What I'm saying is maybe it took him years to respawn as if he just did 1d10 days after the adventure it makes the PCs actions seem kind of pointless.

Scarab Sages

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Yqatuba wrote:
Well ok. What I'm saying is maybe it took him years to respawn as if he just did 1d10 days after the adventure it makes the PCs actions seem kind of pointless.

The point of Book 6 is to prevent him from obliterating Absalom, cracking open the Starstone Cathedral with the Radiant Fire, becoming a divinity, and winning. The PC's not only stop him from doing all of that, they also destroy his nuclear capabilities, leave his army to fall apart and/or get wrecked by the good guys, destroy his body for the first time since the Shining Crusade (potentially opening up some detective work to figure out where his phylactery is), and remove his Plot Armor in one fell swoop.

Liberty's Edge

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Yqatuba wrote:
Well ok. What I'm saying is maybe it took him years to respawn as if he just did 1d10 days after the adventure it makes the PCs actions seem kind of pointless.

He may have respawned quickly, but it's pretty clear that he is not healthy and active afterwards. He's lurking on his island doing nothing in particular personally.

That pretty strongly indicates the PCs actions really messed him up for at least a while.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Yqatuba wrote:
Well ok. What I'm saying is maybe it took him years to respawn as if he just did 1d10 days after the adventure it makes the PCs actions seem kind of pointless.

He may have respawned quickly, but it's pretty clear that he is not healthy and active afterwards. He's lurking on his island doing nothing in particular personally.

That pretty strongly indicates the PCs actions really messed him up for at least a while.

I'm pretty sure he's just recrafting all his gear. He hasn't left his new base of operations, but that's not indicative of anything. He could be perfectly fine and its foolhardy to assume otherwise.

The PCs got to save the world from his evil plan. That just has to be enough this time around.


I guess in a way Arazni got a happy ending: she seems to have become a full-fledged god (without stats) and isn't Geb's slave anymore.


The Whispering Tyrant of the AP is Sauron with nukes. The PCs take his nukes away (and also destroy about a million gp worth of magic gear and bling that he was carrying) and remove the "become a straight-up god" option from the menu, forcing him to stay stuck as a lich, albeit a crazy powerful one.

Actually killing him is left for a future AP.

Doug M.


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They don't remove 'become a straight-up god' from the menu, though. Starstone's still there, and nothing the PCs do actually ensures Tar-Baphon can't access it, just that he can't do so *right now*. No given reason he couldn't just teleport there.


Revan wrote:
No given reason he couldn't just teleport there.

It's canon that magic doesn't work right in the Cathedral of the Starstone, and teleportation magic in particular either doesn't work or malfunctions horribly. The first part of the Test of the Starstone involves crossing the bottomless pit that surrounds the Cathedral; you can fly, jump, ride a flying steed, or tightrope-walk across, but teleportation is a no-no. And that's before you even go inside the Cathedral, where things start to get really strange.

So, he'd have to fight his way into Absalom, which no one has ever yet managed to do.

Doug M.


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He can teleport in front of the pit, though.

Dark Archive

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Revan wrote:
He can teleport in front of the pit, though.

So can literally anyone else who has access to that level of magic.

The challenge of the Starstone Cathedral was never "getting into the middle of Absalom to reach it", but in entering it and successfully navigating the interior to reach the Starstone itself. Tar-Baphon's intent was to use his Radiant Fire to basically nuke away the outer shell of the building so he could go straight to the Starstone, bypassing the challenge of the cathedral itself. Without it, he has to go in through the front door like anyone else.


In canon, it's not even clear if TB's plan was sound. The Cathedral kills very high level characters on the regular. Presumably it draws its power from the Starstone itself, an artifact so ridiculously powerful that it doesn't actually make sense if you think about it too much. So simply nuking it might not do anything.

OTOH Tar-Baphon seemed pretty sure his plan would work, so what do I know.

Doug M.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

In canon, it's not even clear if TB's plan was sound. The Cathedral kills very high level characters on the regular. Presumably it draws its power from the Starstone itself, an artifact so ridiculously powerful that it doesn't actually make sense if you think about it too much. So simply nuking it might not do anything.

OTOH Tar-Baphon seemed pretty sure his plan would work, so what do I know.

Doug M.

Tar-Baphon's Wisdom score is 14 after old age and being a lich, so... high int, low wis?

(What I believe to be the breakdown for Tar-Baphon's Wisdom Score: 14 = 8 or 9 (base) + 2 (lich) + 3 (venerable age) + 0 or 1 (leveling up))

Also, no one tried it before, so he could have reasoned that it was a method that was likely to work, since

Guide to Absalom wrote:
Crossing the pit is a necessary first step, but not sufficient to enter the cathedral and continue the test, and what has worked for one hopeful may fail for another.

And even then, honestly, who really knows what goes on in the mind of Tar-Baphon?


Dryad Knotwood wrote:


Tar-Baphon's Wisdom score is 14 after old age and being a lich, so... high int, low wis?

(What I believe to be the breakdown for Tar-Baphon's Wisdom Score: 14 = 8 or 9 (base) + 2 (lich) + 3 (venerable age) + 0 or 1 (leveling up))

I see Tar-Baphon as your classic Angry Nerd. He's the kid who got mocked at school and who made it worse by sputtering with incredulous indignation. He's the bitter young man who could never find a girl/boyfriend and who concluded that he was Above All That. He's the brilliant researcher / programmer / professor who used his brilliance as an excuse for every sort of bad behavior. "Misanthrope" was too kind a word even when he was still human. The living man was a petty, mean-spirited, grudge-holding jerkass. Now that he's an undead monster, he's ten times worse.

A sympathetic observer might say that he never learned to give or receive any sort of affection. An unsympathetic observer would note that now it's far too late. Cruelty and spite are the only ways he'll ever be able to interact with the rest of humanity. And his relentless drive for supreme power is really about punishing a world that never gave him the rewards he knows he deserved.

TLDR, his whole career is about how he'll SHOW THEM ALL.

That's my headcanon, but it's consistent with everything we're shown.

Doug M.

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I posted this in another thread discussing this subject but this was how I plan to handle the question of 'why didn't he just show up 1-10 days later'.

"The way I'm currently planning on handling it is to have the npc who informs the group tell them that in addition to dying that their spirits wont be moving on to the boneyard. This will hit hard as those who lived from the onset will remember having to leave behind loved ones there. However, allowing themselves to be destroyed will severely weaken Tarry Baphs. Basically all the obols and shard will become synced and the spirits of the heroes will gain a connection to his phylactery. Taking a cue from Cole's suggestion early in the thread the second he reforms at his phylactery five kids are born with obols representing each of the heroes. Due to his connection to them he loses a Mythic tier per obol now connected to him. He would then need to go on the defensive as his phylactery is no longer an artifact and he is far weaker. The whispering way would go from finding a way to free him to finding a way to capture these hidden individuals (as killing them just causes them to reborn) so he can find a way to magically seperate himself from the heroes souls which now essentially stand eternal vigil over him.

I may even in a later campaign spring the fact that one of the pcs has an obol on them or reveal that a close acquaintance has one. Throw in a whispering way capture squad or something."

The problem with this plan, now that I've had quite a few days to think about it is that it makes a group of people out there in the world essentially more important than the pc's for facing the setting's big bad. Not entirely sure its a good idea anymore.


rkotitan wrote:


"The way I'm currently planning on handling it is to have the npc who informs the group tell them that in addition to dying that their spirits wont be moving on to the boneyard. This will hit hard as those who lived from the onset will remember having to leave behind loved ones there. However, allowing themselves to be destroyed will severely weaken Tarry Baphs. Basically all the obols and shard will become synced and the spirits of the heroes will gain a connection to his phylactery. Taking a cue from Cole's suggestion early in the thread the second he reforms at his phylactery five kids are born with obols representing each of the heroes. Due to his connection to them he loses a Mythic tier per obol now connected to him. He would then need to go on the defensive as his phylactery is no longer an artifact and he is far weaker. The whispering way would go from finding a way to free him to finding a way to capture these hidden individuals (as killing them just causes them to reborn) so he can find a way to magically seperate himself from the heroes souls which now essentially stand eternal vigil over him.

The thing I love about this -- and that I really wish Paizo had done -- is "strip a Mythic rank away from TB for every obol-bearer caught in the blast". That would bring home the fact that /you have hurt him/ in a way that just taking away the Radiant Flame doesn't.

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

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Which would have accomplished what, honestly? It’s the end of the AP, and Mythic doesn’t exist in P2.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Mostly, as far as the end of the AP goes, all of my games happen within the same timeline and Golarion so TG will have happened when I run something else. I want to have an excuse in place for my own narrative.

This is not something that my players are ever going to know. It would be TB's greatest secret (in my game). I'm imagining him as being someone who leans pretty heavily on his powers and defenses and deeply paranoid of not only random adventurers but also his intelligent minions.

As far as mythic not existing... That is a good point. I'm not looking forward to the challenge of trying to convert him. I guess that does make the whole explanation fairly moot given that by the time I run this game there may or may not even be a mythic system.


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I would bet a nickel that Paizo gets a mythic system in place for 2e at some point. The general consensus is that mythic was a cool idea badly implemented, and I have the impression that Paizo agrees. It will probably be quite different from the current mythic system, but it will fill roughly the same nice.

Note that they have a number of high level NPCs who are in canon as being mythic: Tar-Baphon, Arazni, both the two surviving Runelords, Baba Yaga, Old Mage Jatembe, and probably some others that I've missed. Plus there are a bunch more who have never been statted out but who clearly must be mythic. Geb and Nex for starters; Geb kept a L20 / Mythic 8 lich as his unwilling consort, and Nex is in the same weight class.

Just making these people level 20 isn't going to cut it. So, they pretty much gotta do mythic again at some point.

Doug M.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Just making these people level 20 isn't going to cut it. So, they pretty much gotta do mythic again at some point.

Well, the system allows them to just make powerful NPCs higher level. Tar-Baphon could be a Level 30 creature.

I hope there will be mythic again, but I don't think it will be required.


Kasoh wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Just making these people level 20 isn't going to cut it. So, they pretty much gotta do mythic again at some point.

Well, the system allows them to just make powerful NPCs higher level. Tar-Baphon could be a Level 30 creature.

I hope there will be mythic again, but I don't think it will be required.

I don't think, that they would do that, because it is too similiar to the D+D Epic stuff.

And I liked the Pathfinder Version better, because for one reason it did not require reaching the endlevel.

Was it perfect? No, but that is Always the case.


Yqatuba wrote:
What happens to Arazni at the end? I don't care about spoilers I just want to know.

She'll get setup for a Mary Sue Makeover ala Sorshen and Nocticula is my bet...if she hasn't shown up a Neutral (with possible intentions to become good) goddess in 2E already...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Dracovar wrote:
Yqatuba wrote:
What happens to Arazni at the end? I don't care about spoilers I just want to know.
She'll get setup for a Mary Sue Makeover ala Sorshen and Nocticula is my bet...if she hasn't shown up a Neutral (with possible intentions to become good) goddess in 2E already...

Try Neutral Evil goddess of the abused, dignity, and unwilling undeath. (From the glossary of the Lost Omens World Guide.)

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