In the "what do you still need?" thread, someone commented that they really wanted to see more/new/better skill feats and, honestly, I kind of agree. I would like to see more skill feats, especially of the kind that do interesting things in skill-specific ways, and perhaps make "what skills are you focusing on" a more vibrant topic in character-building discussions.
A quick check on the feats under each skill in AoN gives us these raw numbers. No attempt has been made to filter for quality:
Acrobatics: 7
Arcana: 11
Athletics: 14
Crafting: 17
Deception: 13
Diplomacy: 12
Intimidation: 11
Lore: 9 (4 of which are only for specific lores)
Medicine: 16
Nature: 17
Occultism: 19
Performance: 6
Religion: 16
Society: 15
Stealth: 9
Survival: 11
Thievery: 6
So... which skills need more love? (I mean, I feel like Medicine is doing reasonably well, you know?) What kind of love do they need? Does anyone have any ideas for the kinds of skill feats that they'd like to see? Can you think of anything that you'd like to be able to do, that a skill feat ought to let you do, but that there's no skill feat for?
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It's interesting to see those numbers, because while they're true, I think they paint a wildly inaccurate picture of which skills are well-served.
Occultism has a lot of skill feats, but if you look at level 1 (a whopping 10 feats) what do we have?
* Crystal Healing: use occultism to Treat Disease/Poison.
* Deceptive Worship: use Occultism instead of Deception to Impersonate/Lie that you belong to a different faith.
* Oddity Identification: gain a +2 bonus to identify items with some traits (that you won't know about until you've identified the item).
* Quick Identification: identify items faster. Shared with other magic skills.
* Read Psychometric Resonance: new exploration activity to spot emotionally charged items and maybe take damage from analyzing them
* Recognize Spell; shared with other magic skills.
* Reveal True Name: Rare, shared with the other magic skills, uses Intimidate (!) to boss around a creature whose True Name you already need to know, and and it'll piss them off.
* Root Magic: give someone a +1 bonus on the first save against some stuff per day (they don't get to decide if it was an important save)
* Schooled In Secrets: use Occultism instead of Diplomacy to Gather Information about secret cults. Spot members of your own secret society.
* Trick Magic Item: shared with other magic skills.
All in all, most of this is either shared with other skills, or really very circumstantial.
Compare that with Intimidation, which across all levels has only 11 skill feats. But most people can name Intimidating Glare and Scare to Death. You might also know Battle Cry and Terrified Retreat. With some difficulty you can maybe name a few others.
So sheer number of feats doesn't really say all that much. Quality matters.
Why are feats like Bon Mot and Intimidating Glare good? Because they're not so circumstantial. In most campaigns, the player has a good idea of when they're going to be useful, and that isn't super rare.
So what's missing? I think each skill should have:
- for each tier (trained, expert, master, legendary) more than one choice
- lower tiers could have a few more choices; classes like rogue and investigator need something to choose from when digging deeper into a skill
- each tier should have some choices that are not circumstantial, that you can count on being useful in the majority of adventures
Occultism has too many circumstantial feats; Intimidation has some circumstantial feats but that doesn't bother anyone because it's also got good all-situations feats.
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Religion I feel like is in an odd spot too. There are a lot of skill feats, but almost all of the ones that aren't generic (like quick identification or recognize spell) are specifically about faith, and more specifically the faith of the character taking the feat.
I was trying to build a character the other day who studied the undead, fiends, and religious practices, but wasn't particuarly defined by their own faith and I could really feel a lack of relevant skill feats.
... Performance stands out as a skill really struggling to find an identity too. It has very few feats, and even the ones it does have tend to be skill substitutions or small improvements to existing mechanics.
I feel like Performance desperately needs some feats that give you new things to do (ala occult's disturbing knowledge or acrobatic's kip up or bon mot) because the skill itself feels underbaked.
Could probably think of more, but wanted to highlight those two in particular since the Religion thing came up recently and... Performance desperately needs something.
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Back at the tail end of the PF2 playtest I rewrote the skill feats chapter of the rule book. Some of those actually wound up in the final version of the game, like Fast Fade becoming a default part of the Sneak action, or One Handed Climber and Defensive Climber getting condensed into Combat Climber. But there are still some good ideas in there, IMO, or at least ideas I'd like to see in the game.
Skill feats with class traits. Things like Raging Athlete and Wall Run should have been skill feats available to specific classes. We got them for archetypes in the APG, but they should have been done with classes too.
Monster Climber Prereq: Expert in Athletics.
When you attempt to Grapple a creature at least one size larger than you, you can roll against the target’s Reflex DC instead of Fortitude and armor check penalties apply. If you do so, the creature doesn’t become grabbed, but you instead cling to the creature. You share its space and move when it moves, and the creature takes a -2 circumstance penalty to attacks against you. The monster can dislodge you with an Escape or Break Grapple as per a normal Grapple. You may Climb the monster as though it were an incline by rolling athletics against its Reflex DC, modified by appropriate circumstances.
At your GM’s discretion, the creature may be flat-footed against you and you may be treated as out of reach by some of the creature’s attacks, depending where on the creature you cling. For example, if you climb up to the back of the head of a huge or larger dragon, you can stab at its face to reflect its flat-footed condition, and it couldn’t reach you with its bite or breath weapon.
The creature can try to use its weight to crush you by dropping prone or otherwise use the environment to damage you, dealing the damage from whichever one of its unarmed strikes the GM deems appropriate. A reflex save against the creature’s acrobatics DC lets you release your grip and avoid that damage, but may result in you falling.
CALMING DEMEANOR FEAT 7
Prerequisites master in Diplomacy
You are deft at nonverbal communication and have made fast friends who never understood a single word you said. Make an Impression loses the Lingual trait for you with any creature intelligent enough to have a language. This does not let you Make an Impression on animals unless you already have that ability (such as from the Wild Empathy feat.) You also get a +1 circumstance bonus on Seek actions to evaluate a creature’s feelings towards you. If you are legendary, this bonus increases to +2.
Booming Challenge FEAT 2
Prerequisites expert in Intimidation
Your demoralizing taunts can be heard over the din of the battlefield. You may Demoralize creatures 10 feet further away. If are a master of intimidation, you can increase your Demoralize range another 10 feet, and then another 10 feet if you are Legendary. When you use this feat to Demoralize outside of the standard range, the action must have the auditory trait, and you still take a penalty if the creature doesn’t understand your language.
UNLOCK MEMORY FEAT 1
(linguistic, concentrate, mental, enchantment)
Prerequisites trained in Occultism
You use the power of suggestion and subtle psychic influence to dredge up repressed or forgotten memories. You spend 10 minute inducing a calming, trance-like state in the subject, after which you attempt an Occultism check against the target’s Will DC. If you succeed at the check, the hypnotized creature can reroll any previously failed Recall Knowledge check to recall the forgotten information with a +2 conditional bonus. The information must be something the subject once knew or was exposed to, and the target is bolstered no matter the result. You can self-hypnotize to attempt using this effect on yourself.
If you’re an expert at Occultism, you can use this effect to try and bring out memories that have been magically removed or altered. Treat this as a counteract attempt using level equal to half your level rounded up. On a success the memory is restored.
RITUALISTIC RISK FEAT 2
Prerequisites expert in Occultism
You have studied the Occult and discovered shortcuts that can be taken to bypass some requirements for rituals, but they make the proposition even more harrowing than normal. You may cast a ritual without secondary casters; a missing secondary caster is treated as a failure on the relevant check. You may also cast a ritual in half the time, but doing so inflicts a -2 conditional penalty on any checks related to performing the ritual. If you are a master of occultism, it only take a quarter of the time, and if you are legendary it takes a tenth.
FAITH HEALING FEAT 2
Prerequisites expert in Religion
You can use the Aid reaction when someone tries to counteract a curse or other harmful condition or magical affliction. To do so, you roll Religion against the DC of the effect, and apply the bonus/penalty (as appropriate to your degree of success) to the counteract check.
INTERPRETER OF THE GODS FEAT 7
Prerequisites Master in Religion
When you do your daily preparations or before you go to sleep the night before, you can pray for guidance from your deity, but their answer requires theological skills to understand. This acts as an Augury spell, but it can be used for one course of action in the next 24 hours and requires a Religion check against a DC set by your GM instead of a flat check. You do not necessarily receive the answer immediately, and the answer comes from something subtle, such as a butterfly flying over a path if you pray to Desna. Because of this, your GM rolls a secret Religion check to see if you notice and correctly interpret the sign. If you do, you understand the answer. If you fail the Religion or flat check, you don’t get any answer at all, and on a critical failure you misinterpret the sign.
MONSTER SURFING FEAT 2
Prerequisites expert in Acrobatics
If you find yourself on top of a creature, such as by successfully leaping or climbing onto it, you may treat it as uneven ground. When you roll to Balance or Maintain Balance, use the creature’s Acrobatics DC. The creature may use an action to try and shake you off by rolling Athletics or Acrobatics against your Acrobatics DC. This situation otherwise works like Combat Climber in regards to penalizing the creature’s attacks against you, sharing its space, or the creature attempting to crush you. Should you fall or be dislodged and have the Combat Climber feat, you may be able to make a Grab Edge reaction, unless the creature critically succeeding on dislodging you.
Critical Failures to Strike you while you are balancing or clinging to a creature must be rerolled as Strikes against the creature.
Hypnotism FEAT 7
(concentrate, enchantment, linguistic, mental, occult)
Prerequisites master in Deception, Unlock Memories skill feat
You use the power of suggestion to program a command into the mind of an unaware victim. You can attempt to implant a suggestion in the mind of a creature with an attitude of indifferent or better after 10 minutes of continuous, calm interaction with that creature. Make a Deception check against the target’s Perception DC. The target is bolstered.
Success The target is subject to a Suggestion spell, except the creature makes its will save against your Deception DC and there are no spellcasting actions involved. Like the spell, the creature is aware you were trying to manipulate it only on a critical success.
Critical Success As a success, but he creature treats the result of its save as one step worse.
Failure The target finds your behavior strange; treat this as a Failure to on a check to Lie.
Critical Failure As a failure, but the creature realizes you are trying to manipulate it and reacts accordingly.
If you’re legendary in Deception or Occultism, it only takes 1 minute of calm interaction to implant a suggestion.
Most of the best known skill feats are all combat focused. I'm not sure how I feel in general about skills as combat actions, but I really like having things other than striking and moving to do.
Primarily, I'd love to see a little more combat relevant options for attributes that don't currently have them, especially dex. Dex characters (especially melee) feel pretty boring to use for me, which is sad because they're thematically my favorite characters. Things like catfolk dance are great, sad it's locked behind a specific ancestry.
Int could also use some love. I love the Inventor's tinker, but again locked behind a specific class. Though changing recall knowledge to something like analyze target using some int specific skill would also help a lot of things.
The skill issue in Pathfinder 2 has multiple root causes and likely cannot be completely addressed by feats alone.
Root Cause 1: The imbalance of the current core stats. Dex, Con, and Wis are overvalued as they impact saves. Str and Cha are next as they have multiple strong uses. Int languishes with only a very narrow purpose.
Root Cause 2: Combat is central to Pathfinder 2 as a system so skills that have direct and impactful relevance in combat will get more screen time and generally contribute to party success more than skills that don't have that impact.
Root Cause 3: Some skills, even those with impactful use cases, are significantly narrower in scope than others. For example, knowledge skills are only useful if the thing you are knowledgeable about comes up.
Root Cause 4: Skill feats even between skills that are otherwise equally useful are not equal. There are obvious choices that are mechanically good which means they are taken overwhelmingly more often than their peers.
The best way to fix this would be to release Pathfinder 2.5 which should address attribute imbalance. Then they could focus on making out-of-combat activities more useful to combat outcomes. Then they could focus on finding ways to broaden skills that are currently very narrow in their use. Finally, they could then decide if skill feats are serving their purpose or if they would achieve their aims better by reevaluating how certain impactful skill uses are gated.
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I wish I could Feint with Performance. It would really open up dervish-like characters.
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Root Cause 1: The imbalance of the current core stats. Dex, Con, and Wis are overvalued as they impact saves. Str and Cha are next as they have multiple strong uses. Int languishes with only a very narrow purpose.
Well most of the fix for this is in your hands as a GM. Make the Int based skills more useful.
There are a lot of times a Society check could be made instead of another check. If it is not coming up then the GM should think about it more.A lot of GMs have an overly negative approach to Recall Knowledge as a skill check - it is supposed to be useful but many GMs refuse to let it work. To be fair to them the rules on it are not that good.
Healing touch (Level 1)
Through faith, study or mystic connection your bare hands can be as effective as the best surgical tools.
Req: Trained in Medicine and either Nature, Occultism or Religion.
As long as you have at least one hand free you are considered to be wielding the proper tools for all uses of the Medicine skill. If you have expert proficiency in both required skills, your hands gain a +1 item bonus to Medicine checks. If you have master proficiency in both skills, the item bonus increases to +2 and legendary in both skills increases the bonus to +3.
Mechanically all this really saves you is some gold and maybe an action to pull out your tools in a combat situation but very flavorful.
The best way to fix this would be to release Pathfinder 2.5 which should address attribute imbalance.
Yes it could be improved. The fact of the matter is that in this aspect PF2 is head and shoulders above every other d20 game so far. All 6 attributes have reasonable uses in combat.
The best way to fix this would be to release Pathfinder 2.5 which should address attribute imbalance.Yes it could be improved. The fact of the matter is that in this aspect PF2 is head and shoulders above every other d20 game so far. All 6 attributes have reasonable uses in combat.
Are d20 games the bar we should be aiming to clear in terms of good design though? The baggage that d20 games have in terms of the six core stats, HP, etc. really makes it clunky compared to modern indies that really target slick mechanics focused on their game's core idea. Games like Infinite Revolution, Hardwired Island, and Eclipse Phase all do a better job of not having obvious rules blind spots and weak stats.
I think Paizo should have pulled the trigger on changes they wanted to make back in the prerelease tests and taken the risk of alienating some core fans for the sake of a better system.
Root Cause 1: The imbalance of the current core stats. Dex, Con, and Wis are overvalued as they impact saves. Str and Cha are next as they have multiple strong uses. Int languishes with only a very narrow purpose.Well most of the fix for this is in your hands as a GM. Make the Int based skills more useful.
There are a lot of times a Society check could be made instead of another check. If it is not coming up then the GM should think about it more.
A lot of GMs have an overly negative approach to Recall Knowledge as a skill check - it is supposed to be useful but many GMs refuse to let it work. To be fair to them the rules on it are not that good.
If the rules are poor and don't give a good baseline for a skill you can't blame the GM for a potentially poor interpretation of those rules. The writers know that we want better examples and clearer guidelines for investigations and RK checks but they haven't bothered putting any page count on it yet.
Are d20 games the bar we should be aiming to clear in terms of good design though? The baggage that d20 games have in terms of the six core stats, HP, etc. really makes it clunky compared to modern indies that really target slick mechanics focused on their game's core idea. Games like Infinite Revolution, Hardwired Island, and Eclipse Phase all do a better job of not having obvious rules blind spots and weak stats.The best way to fix this would be to release Pathfinder 2.5 which should address attribute imbalance.Yes it could be improved. The fact of the matter is that in this aspect PF2 is head and shoulders above every other d20 game so far. All 6 attributes have reasonable uses in combat.
You are asking for a vastly different game. Plus you really haven't put your finger on anything that is actually a significant problem. The stats are not a problem, neither are HP.
I think Paizo should have pulled the trigger on changes they wanted to make back in the prerelease tests and taken the risk of alienating some core fans for the sake of a better system.
Now you are just being ridiculous. That idea has been tried and failed a lot. If they wanted a new system they would create a new system and market it as something else. They are instead improving an existing system precisely for the reason of keeping the base.
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Resembling D&D and PF1, at least superficially, is a pretty important part of Pathfinder second edition's business priorities. There were people who quit the game because champions weren't purely lawful good, even though paladins still were. And that feels like a much more subtle change than getting rid of hit points or the six attributes.
Indy games can take big risks because they don't have a preexisting fan base to risk alienating, or a big staff they need to be constantly pulling in money for. Pathfinder has always been a "D&D but..." game and as long as D&D remains the dominant force on the market Pathfinder will probably look like it.
You are asking for a vastly different game. Plus you really haven't put your finger on anything that is actually a significant problem. The stats are not a problem, neither are HP.
You're going to tell me that:
a) Every stat is of equal value.
b) That what each stat does actually makes sense rather than being one of those things we've come to accept over years of this being standard.
c) That there isn't a better way to represent the strengths and weaknesses of individuals.
If you can tell me that you honestly don't think that all of those couldn't be significantly improved, then I'll drop the point.
As for HP, it is an issue. At low levels, even with the increases made to base HP in the current edition, combat can be a coinflip due to low PC endurance. At high levels, enemies can become spongey making easy combats take longer than is enjoyable. At all levels only the last point of HP matters so there is never any tension unless you expect a combatant to drop.
Do you really not understand how these could be viewed as issues?
Now you are just being ridiculous. That idea has been tried and failed a lot.
Tried and failed a lot, by who? How do you even define failure?
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Resembling D&D and PF1, at least superficially, is a pretty important part of Pathfinder second edition's business priorities. There were people who quit the game because champions weren't purely lawful good, even though paladins still were. And that feels like a much more subtle change than getting rid of hit points or the six attributes.
Indy games can take big risks because they don't have a preexisting fan base to risk alienating, or a big staff they need to be constantly pulling in money for. Pathfinder has always been a "D&D but..." game and as long as D&D remains the dominant force on the market Pathfinder will probably look like it.
A loud minority will always moan about any change. You get around that by making a game so good it attracts an outsized number of players, not by aiming for a safe niche that allows you to scrape by and just about keeping the lights on by underpaying your employees.
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Praising all the gods in the pantheon that S.L.Acker wasn't in charge of PF2, and we didn't end up with yet another modern indie that pats itself on the back for breaking molds, but no one wants to play.
You are asking for a vastly different game. Plus you really haven't put your finger on anything that is actually a significant problem. The stats are not a problem, neither are HP.You're going to tell me that:
a) Every stat is of equal value.
Every stat has reasonable value. That is all we really want. Equality is a concept, not something to be pursued to the nth degree. It is an illusion we teach to our children, that we know doesn't really exist.
b) That what each stat does actually makes sense rather than being one of those things we've come to accept over years of this being standard.
They do make sense.
c) That there isn't a better way to represent the strengths and weaknesses of individuals.
That is likely an open ended problem. It certainly has a trade off with complexity.
If you can tell me that you honestly don't think that all of those couldn't be significantly improved, then I'll drop the point.
Of course things can be improved. But you are talking about scorched earth. This is not the forum for this question.
As for HP, it is an issue. At low levels, even with the increases made to base HP in the current edition, combat can be a coinflip due to low PC endurance. At high levels, enemies can become spongey making easy combats take longer than is enjoyable. At all levels only the last point of HP matters so there is never any tension unless you expect a combatant to drop.Do you really not understand how these could be viewed as issues?
It is a simplification for the sake of playability. Of course it has undesirable consequences. But so does a purely skill based game. Hitpoints are a useful abstraction for the sake of the game play. We want a game that simulates a fantasy world with fantasy combat, it has to be real enough, but we all know that compromises have to be made for playability, complexity and game value.
Now you are just being ridiculous. That idea has been tried and failed a lot.Tried and failed a lot, by who? How do you even define failure?
Every gaming company out there that ever made a Fantasy RPG. How many of them have the scale of D&D. Very few even make it to PF2's level.
I'll leave the definition of failure to you. Many have been partially succesful, and are great games in their own way. There are none with the ongoing fan base of the d20 systems.
Why are you trying to tell us that our game is a bad game? It's not. The reasons you don't like it are part of the reason it is a success.
Don't expect us to agree with you, if you don't make good points.
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Every stat has reasonable value. That is all we really want. Equality is a concept, not something to be pursued to the nth degree. It is an illusion we teach to our children, that we know doesn't really exist.
The devs don't even agree with you on that. Just see the GMG for the acknowledgment that the current stat spread is imbalanced.
They do make sense.
Then what exactly does wisdom represent? Why doesn't charisma represent willpower? What does dexterity have to do with using a bow?
That is likely an open ended problem. It certainly has a trade off with complexity.
Only if implemented in the overly complicated way that PF2 insists on doing it. For example, we have a stat value that is never used for anything but generating a modifier. Why not just use the modifiers or use just the raw stats?
Of course things can be improved. But you are talking about scorched earth. This is not the forum for this question.
I'm literally talking about things we know the devs wanted to do but got cold feet on. I'm saying they should have pushed on and made the game they wanted because it was clearly the better product.
It is a simplification for the sake of playability. Of course it has undesirable consequences. But so does a purely skill based game. Hitpoints are a useful abstraction for the sake of the game play. We want a game that simulates a fantasy world with fantasy combat, it has to be real enough, but we all know that compromises have to be made for playability, complexity and game value.
Even if you want to use HP for some reason, we've already seen successful ways to make HP more interesting. The concept of being bloodied comes to mind and creates interesting chances to have systems built around it.
Every gaming company out there that ever made a Fantasy RPG. How many of them have the scale of D&D. Very few even make it to PF2's level.
That's down to advertising reach and luck. Paizo was lucky enough to have worked closely with WotC and that positioned them well to make Pathfinder which worked out very well for them. Unfortunately, their lack of boldness and follow-up has eroded that success as they steadily fall back away from their height as arguably the most popular PnP RPG in the world.
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most people can name Intimidating Glare and Scare to Death. You might also know Battle Cry and Terrified Retreat.
You know Dasher, and Dancer, and Prancer and Vixen
Comet and Cupid, and Donner, and Blitzen.But do you recall the most famous Skill Feat of all?
That said, I always want more skill feats, but I also worry that defining a Skill Feat cuts off whatever the Skill Feat does for characters who don’t have that feat, which can be a negative. So it’s a little fraught, for sure.
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I was trying to build a character the other day who studied the undead, fiends, and religious practices, but wasn't particuarly defined by their own faith and I could really feel a lack of relevant skill feats.
A quirk of the system may be that such a character may be better served by Additional Lore: Undead Lore and Additional Lore: Fiend Lore than by pumping Religion, though Wis and Int bonuses may say otherwise.
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I was trying to build a character the other day who studied the undead, fiends, and religious practices, but wasn't particuarly defined by their own faith and I could really feel a lack of relevant skill feats.A quirk of the system may be that such a character may be better served by Additional Lore: Undead Lore and Additional Lore: Fiend Lore than by pumping Religion, though Wis and Int bonuses may say otherwise.
Fiend Lore isn't going to give you any skill feats either... You also can only level so many skills, and Wisdom is a lot more useful than Int.
Fiend Lore isn't going to give you any skill feats either... You also can only level so many skills, and Wisdom is a lot more useful than Int.I was trying to build a character the other day who studied the undead, fiends, and religious practices, but wasn't particuarly defined by their own faith and I could really feel a lack of relevant skill feats.A quirk of the system may be that such a character may be better served by Additional Lore: Undead Lore and Additional Lore: Fiend Lore than by pumping Religion, though Wis and Int bonuses may say otherwise.
Additional Lore gives you automatic increases, which is pretty sexy when combined with Lore DC reductions. You can also take Unmistakable Lore and Dubious Knowledge, which essentially guarantees you'll know SOMETHING about your lore. Lore builds can be pretty cool if you build for them.
Also, while wisdom is better than intelligence in a vacuum, having at least one person with good intelligence is usually extremely helpful. Arcana, Crafting, Occultism, and Society are super common checks in my experience.
But if you want to be legendary in everything religion covers than feats will definitely feel sparse.
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Fiend Lore isn't going to give you any skill feats either... You also can only level so many skills, and Wisdom is a lot more useful than Int.
Additional Lore advances itself: “At 3rd, 7th, and 15th levels, you gain an additional skill increase you can apply only to the chosen Lore subcategory.”
Wisdom May be more useful than Int (thought if you focus on healing and buff spells, Wisdom is irrelevant to spell casting — in the Agents ju of Edgewatch campaign I ran there was a Cleric who never boosted Wis above 12 and was very effective), but you’re going to have to spend skill increases to advance Religion, and if you’ve pumped Wisdom those skill increases may be better spent on Medicine than Religion, especially if you have Additional Lore automatically advancing the relevant Lore skills.
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The fact that additional lore auto-levels is a stroke of genius, and makes it a top-pick for me. I like my characters, even the dumb ones, to be able to speak with authority on *something*.
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The skill feat that I most want to see is one that can auto-level your background lore. My duskwalker is pretty sad that her undead background lore isn't something she can auto-level by taking additional lore.
Yes, I realize that this is just a PFS problem because mose home games would allow you to take the skill feat to auto-level the lore from your background. But I really, really want an Obsessed Professional skill feat that auto-levels the lore from your background.
The skill feat that I most want to see is one that can auto-level your background lore. My duskwalker is pretty sad that her undead background lore isn't something she can auto-level by taking additional lore.
Yes, I realize that this is just a PFS problem because mose home games would allow you to take the skill feat to auto-level the lore from your background. But I really, really want an Obsessed Professional skill feat that auto-levels the lore from your background.
"Choose an additional Lore skill subcategory. You become trained in it. At 3rd, 7th, and 15th levels, you gain an additional skill increase you can apply only to the chosen Lore subcategory."
I'm not reading anything there that prevents you from choosing a lore you're already trained in? It makes the first benefit kind of redundant, but it doesn't appear to be illegal in any way.
Actually, technically... I think that if you're a rogue, and you take this at 2nd level, you can then use your 2nd level skill increase on it to get it to Expert, at which point the autoincrease at 3rd will take it to Master, and the one at 7th will take it to legendary. On one hand, I feel like that must be illegal somehow, and on the other I don't see how and on the gripping hand it feels like kind of a waste anyway, so....
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•I'm not reading anything there that prevents you from choosing a lore you're already trained in? It makes the first benefit kind of redundant, but it doesn't appear to be illegal in any way.
There’s an argument to be made that if you’re already Trained in a given Lore that it isn’t “an additional Lore skill subcategory,” but that’s probably a pretty weak argument.
Actually, technically... I think that if you're a rogue, and you take this at 2nd level, you can then use your 2nd level skill increase on it to get it to Expert, at which point the autoincrease at 3rd will take it to Master, and the one at 7th will take it to legendary. On one hand, I feel like that must be illegal somehow, and on the other I don't see how and on the gripping hand it feels like kind of a waste anyway, so....
The rules on Skill Increases state that “If your character is at least 7th level, they can use a skill increase to become a master of a skill in which they’re already an expert. If they’re at least 15th level, they can use an increase to become legendary in a skill of which they’re already a master.” The Rogue class doesn’t waive those level prerequisites that I’m aware of.
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Rogues actually explicitly let you increase to expert at 2, and specific trumps general.
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Rogues actually explicitly let you increase to expert at 2, and specific trumps general.
As far as I can tell, skill increases let you increase to Expert at any time. Rogues just get them earlier than other folks. They still have to wait until 7 to crank to Master.
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My game has a houseruled lore feat called Professional Craftsman that lets you replace your crafting proficiency with your proficiency in an appropriate lore to determine crafting progress and the level of item you can craft, as long as the lore skill used matches the item being crafted (so like alchemy lore for alchemical items, blacksmithing can make weapons, armor, and metal good, etc). It uses the specialty crafter categories
Another, called Battlefield Repair that lets you use Warfare Lore or an appropriate lore skill to make repair checks on weapons, armor, and shields, and use your proficiency for that lore for determining how much hp is restored
I made it need two feats for an autoscale (additional lore + battlefield repair) because shields are pretty good, but I've never had the opportunity to test if its strictly needed for balance; could be interested to test out!
I made it need two feats for an autoscale (additional lore + battlefield repair) because shields are pretty good, but I've never had the opportunity to test if its strictly needed for balance; could be interested to test out!
I think it would depend in part on whether "battlefield repair" was useful for anything else. If it has the same basic functionality as any other lore, then it should [probably be two feats. If it's really *only* useful for the repair thing, then keeping it to one feels a lot more reasonable.
Doesn't this kind of relegate Crafting to a skill basically no PC will ever advance ?
Depends on the game; if you want to be able to craft a lot of things and repair, than crafting is needed; you can only take professional crafter once
At least in my games, crafting is also extremely useful outside of earn income; lost magical machines are a common theme in my games, and crafting is used to make them operational again. I also use crafting as the default demolition skill, which sees use from my players to clear and create cave ins, get past fortifications, etc
Between that, and giving out a lot of downtime, actually using the settlement level rules for lore based earn income, running a decent amount of construct enemies and the like, crafting is actually a very helpful skill that sees at least one person in the party in every game I've ran keeping it raised, despite my other options existing. The main problem with crafting is largely a pfs thing or people in games that dont let them actually use the skill.
Also hard to tell with the treasure horde book coming out, which is likely to buff/expand more on the skill in official rules
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Craft was probably the least useful application of the Crafting skill, so I don't see that Lore feat being a problem.
I sort of feel like some degree of "navigate the Cheliax law system" should be built into Cheliax Lore inherently... and it would also mean a feat that was very location-specific, which isn't great. Possibly as something to slip into a book about the region and/or an AP?
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For example, Cheliax Lore could have a feat which allows you to navigate the law system with ease, using (and abusing) it to your advantage.
I mean isn't that just what you'd use Cheliax Lore for normally?