Archpaladin Zousha's page

Becoming the hero of a second, even greater crisis in the Pact Worlds changed surprisingly little for Arcalinte. For all the accolades he'd earned and the awe he inspired, he knew the work was only beginning. He immediately threw himself into aiding and helping organize Absalom Station's reconstruction efforts, finding himself spending much more time in a Lorespire Complex office than anywhere else as politicians, corporate executives, priests, mages, solarians and of course Starfinders sought his counsel.

His first concerns, of course, were guiding the securing and exploration of the Ark; with Shocca and Ajithu-Ko's aid, he began organizing expeditions, filled with his fellow Starfinders and members of the Order of the Empty Orbit, to plumb the depths of the ancient colony-ship and war-machine. He also began seeking counseling and advocacy for those few denizens of the Ark that they'd secured to determine who among them could be safely integrated into Absalom Station. The idea that there were Sivv, and those the Sivv had caught and brainwashed over the years could be redeemed was a long-shot, but by this point long-shots seemed to be a specialty of his. And they deserved that chance.

As Ajithu-Ko offers his friends an opportunity to join him in chasing down the seemingly-escaped beings from the Ark, Arcalinte fully acknowledges the essentiality of this mission. "Thank you, but I think I would best help your mission here. My work will only increase in the days to come, but a mission like this needs information, needs material, needs allies. These are things I can supply you. It seems I may be serving as "mission control" for the foreseeable future. As much as my sword-arm has seen us through battle after battle, now the time has come to be a force multiplier, so I'll get you as many sword-arms as I can find." He accepts Shocca's hug. "Give my regards to my father, Dean Theraels. I imagine he'll be relieved to hear we both made it out of there."

The years that follow the Devastation Ark crisis are no less eventful, but Arcalinte finds himself drawing Skyndi less and less. Even as the Drift Crisis effectively strands him on Absalom Station, he finds that while people still look to him for leadership, others begin stepping up to take on the mantle of hero, Starfinders and otherwise. He certainly didn't waste the chance to continue advocating for reducing Absalom Station's dependence on the Starstone, both as a power source and the political and economic leverage it granted as the greatest Drift Beacon in the galaxy. Even as he worked to aid the influx of refugees and his experience with rel-state technology was sought by both the Church of Triune as a potential solution and Circles of Eloritu's faithful as validation that these technologies would create more problems than they'd solve, to better advocate for a magical alternative, Arcalinte continued to remain focused on this purpose. While others saw the eventual restoration of Drift travel two years later as a chance to return to normalcy, for Arcalinte it was an object lesson of the importance of that purpose. But he took some comfort in the fact that he no longer needed to do everything by himself.

Not even a year later, Arcalinte's belief in this mission was galvanized when Aucturn hatched and the psychic cry of a Newborn god rocked his mind. For a brief period of time, he struggled to cope with the damage the Ark's tampering had done to his identity, struggling to sort out which of his memories were real and which were simulated dreams of Vheiransch's life, his dark hair beginning to prematurely grey in streaks. He sought solace in Sarenrae's light, in his friendships with Shocca and Ajithu-Ko and so many others, and found looking at Skyndi, even lying in its sheath, helped him ground himself anew, reminded him of his promise. Upon recovering, he learned that the Ghost Levels of Absalom Station, long sealed and empty, had opened and that the Starstone had been sought by strange beings in service to the new god. Immediately he began to integrate himself with the network of Ghost Couriers forming to explore and catalogue its depths, certain that the solutions he sought would be found there, organizing team after team of Starfinders to learn more about this Station he'd called home for so long, but knew so little about. Learning the Sunrise Maiden had been lost in the first battle of the Vesk-Azlanti War on Kehetaria saddened him greatly, but his relief at the survival of her latest crew was immeasurable.

After reading every report, after closing each video call, he would meditate. Look inward at his place in the grand, strange Cycle he'd been part of, from that incident at Docking Bay 94 to the farthest reaches of the Vast, through death and back again, into history and another being's mind, and into the future. He would look upon Skyndi, balanced before him with gravitic energy and remember his promise to Nirin. And how tired he was striving to keep it. But then he would smile and remember that he'd inspired, even trained, so many men, women and non-binary people to take up these causes and continue his work. Arcalinte Soter, Sola of the Order of the Empty Orbit, Venture-Captain of the Starfinder Society, was a hero of the Dead Suns Crisis and the Devastation Ark Crisis. And now, it was his honor and privilege to allow a new generation of heroes to dawn and bring new light to the galaxy.

Formidable? Jolánka's a twig! XD

Will: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (17) + 7 = 24

Jolanka barks an indignant laugh at the soporific sand.

"I've spent FAR too many nights writing by candlelight sustained by spite, panic and imported Qadiran coffee for a little sand to send ME to sleep!"

The night before

Emerald gives Betzolte a glare when she brings up the spiders.

"Just you wait, Betzolte. Dragons have long memories and I will remember this," she growls. "Maybe I'll convince some fey to steal all your left shoes and boots or one out of every pair of socks."

Betzolte chuckles a bit. "I'm complimenting you, Emerald!" she replies. "Guess I'll have to work on getting myself some cold-iron-toed boots!"

At the battle, she rumbles after Moon and Histya roaring a battle-cry.

Intimidate: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (17) + 4 = 21

"THE HEROES OF KASSEN ARE UPON YOU, GOBBOS! DROP YOUR WEAPONS AND YOU MAY LIVE TO SEE ANOTHER NIGHT!"

I have RETURNED from the fairy-tale kingdom of the southern lands (i.e. Florida), and shall begin catching up post-haste!

I have RETURNED from the fairy-tale kingdom of the southern lands (i.e. Florida), and shall begin catching up post-haste!

Betzolte joins the rest of the group in bathing and obliges Moon's request to clean her gear.

"See?" she comments to Emerald once they've settled in. "Those spiders weren't so bad. You looked them in their beady little eyes and they blinked!"

The next morning, she wolfs down her breakfast and bundles up, ready to set out herself when Nalka takes her leave.

"Good luck, Nalka. Grundinnar guide and protect you."

If any dwarf god would look kindly on a goblin, The Peacemaker surely would.

RIP Grundinnar. May your heroic sacrifice never be forgotten. (╥﹏╥)

She nods at Moon's assessment.

"We've aimed high, we've planned well, and the iron's hot. All that's left is to strike, Torag willin'!"

Hey hey, I'm no Florida Man! I'm Minnesota Nice! :P

GM Nightmare Knight wrote:

@Luke: You are correct, Luke. Give yourself a hero point for that callout, and you may attack as you posted.

@Jolánka, is there a manner in which you'd like to be botted? Call to everyone to maybe have a blurb on their character pages for botting should the occasion call for it.

@GM: Is it okay if I give you permission to do as you think best in the case of botting? Djedefre will heal, provide flank, attack, etc. depending on the situation.

I'm okay with this. Jolánka would very much behave similarly to Djedefre, since she's a Shaman.

Just an announcement, I'll be joining my family on a trip to Florida from the 11th to the 20th, so please feel free to bot my character in my absence.

Yeah, that's why I suggested bringing them back to the barracks. Omast can sleep that hangover off and I imagine it's the closest thing Trunau has to a jail.

ARCALINTE'S CROWN CHAKRA HAS OPENED! :P

Wait, Pharasma's NOT all-knowing?! I thought she was the closest thing the Pathfinder universe had to a Supreme Being, which is why the gods HAVE to respect her judgments (unless you're Urgathoa). And that that's how and why she knows how the Universe will end and (assuming all things go according to plan) is setting up her daughter to be the Survivor to go on and midwife the new one.

Again, Pharasma being 100% opposed to undead is not what makes them, or creating them, evil, or Evil.

They could be the epitome of Good and she would not treat them any differently.

She is the caretaker of the cycle of souls, undeath prevents the soul from flowing, and for Pharasma, the only thing that matters is that the souls must flow.

But the flowing of souls extends the lifespan of the current Universe. Is that not a good thing?

This is a thread in the lore forum, so we're naturally talking about how we see necromancy in the context of the Pathfinder games, but so what? John Paizo isn't going to break anybody's doors down if we want to imagine it differently.

Yeah, John Paizo isn't gonna break down my door if I try to roleplay a "hero" necromancer who temporarily summons the spirits of the unjustly killed to take their justice from those who've wronged them, but I'll still feel guilty about my character concept being out of sync with the "vibe" of the canon.

-- Whether it's inherently evil to assemble temporary facsimiles of undead (inconclusive, but Animate Dead - no unholy tag; Necrologist - no unholy tag; future Necromancer thralls - unclear)

Exactly, and that's really why I started this thread in the first place: it feels like we're getting mixed messages on whether necromancers (whether the upcoming new class or various options for current casters) can work in an ostensibly heroic party, as is assumed to be Pathfinder's default, or if you basically have to all agree as a party to play as amoral antiheroes a la Blood Lords for it to be appropriate.

The text relating to undeath and the cycle of souls and Pharasma seem to strongly imply that undeath and necromancy are inherently bad, corrupting body and soul even if temporary, even if alignment is no longer a factor, but the player-facing options that let you be one of those things treat it AS morally neutral. And in The Book of the Dead specifically, we're implicitly meant to read Geb's defenses of necromancy and undeath as sophistry. And that's not even getting into Eox, which Pharasma seems to have written off entirely, even in the Pathfinder days.

It feels like different writers have different opinions on how much undeath/necromancy is morally acceptable. Pharasma is set up as the final, all-knowing arbiter of the universe, and undeath is specifically the thing she hates the most and exhorts her followers to eradicate as much as they can. And she's so powerful and all-knowing that the only gods who DON'T play by her rules are ones actively involved with undeath in some way, shape or form (Urgathoa, Zyphus, the Horsemen, etc.). So it feels like undeath, even in the absence of alignment, is essentially the most morally reprehensible thing a person can do in the Pathfinder universe, worse than even selling your soul to a Devil or whatnot. But in practice, that doesn't feel like the case. It feels inconsistent, even by the fantasy kitchen sink standard of Pathfinder as a whole.

Time to bone up on the War for the Crown Player's Guide so I can come up with a thematically appropriate character! RESEARCH TIME!!! >:)

Thank you, completely blanked on that. I realized I get TWO spells in the spellbook per level but I'd only put Blur down last level, so I added Blazing Armory, and for my actual spells THIS level, I picked Invisibility and Loose Time's Arrow.

Lol, every time Alicia says something she feels more and more like a Planescape character! XD

As much as I love Kaer Maga, I think the implication is very strong that Sutter was damning it with faint praise. Ankar-Te is effectively an undead gated community, and it's very clear that most living Kaer Magans will stay well away from it unless they themselves have an interest in necromancy or undeath. There's actually very little information as to what Ankar-Te is like on the inside, because the only characters we experience it through are alive and not local. They don't WANT to go there, but their business compels them to, and they want to finish that business and get the heck out of Ankar-Te as fast as they can.

But, you CAN infer that the only reason Ankar-Te seems to be a spontaneously-formed and stable undead society is because life is cheap in Kaer Maga. The factions and gangs of the city uncaringly spend the lives of the poor and desperate against each other every single day, the Godsmouth Ossuary can't possibly get to all of them in that time, and so Ankar-Te is right there, happy to serve as corpse disposal for them all because that constant supply keeps their own citizenry from becoming violent.

They can only maintain their veneer of civility through being fed by a cesspit of violence and depravity, just like Geb. Ankar-Te is just more honest about it, because the cesspit is on full display outside the district.

Yeah, you just gotta hop a portal to Akiton or Castrovel and you can probably hitchhike your way to Verces, where they're already getting started on that! ;)

True, but it had sounded like this may be a bit more far-roving, should we wish it. Like Jade Regent far-roving! Especially since the story starts in Absalom, the PCs could basically go ANYWHERE.

Donimah looks to Ano. Obviously, this would hit her the hardest, as Nualia had been her friend. Or at least, she'd thought Nualia had been her friend.

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Hence why Pharasma is / was True Neutral. She is neither Good nor Evil. In fact the three fears story strongly implies that the other alignments grew in their difference from her: she is the center of this reality's creation.

She does not care which outer plane grows stronger, as long as the outer planes on their whole are kept strong to protect reality through the Cycle of souls.

Note also that people are not tortured by Pharasma. Each soul goes to the outer plane that fits it best according to the soul's morality (previously known as Alignment).

And people on Golarion know about Hell and the other planes. If they then decide that Lawful Evil is their way, that is on them. Not on Pharasma.

Though she WILL intervene to keep things in balance (presumably because interplanar wars would weaken the Cycle through the River of Souls literally becoming a battleground).

** spoiler omitted **

About the spoiler, I feel Pharasma just wanted to know why things did not work the way they were supposed to. As in was there a new threat to the souls / cycle?

Did she actually passed moral judgement on those who were messing with it or was it just getting rid of the interlopers so that things could go back to the usual way of working?

Alas I did not get to read it firsthand.

She didn't, but the morrigna psychopomp who was assigned to the case alongside Salim certainly did, though I just sort of chalked that up to psychopomps in general having stronger emotional reactions to those kinds of affronts than Pharasma herself does.

Plus, in both Salim novels (Death's Heretic and The Redemption Engine), Salim's case briefings are the kind where "Find out what the problem is" is what's outright stated and the "and then fix it" is left implied.

Hence why Pharasma is / was True Neutral. She is neither Good nor Evil. In fact the three fears story strongly implies that the other alignments grew in their difference from her: she is the center of this reality's creation.

She does not care which outer plane grows stronger, as long as the outer planes on their whole are kept strong to protect reality through the Cycle of souls.

Note also that people are not tortured by Pharasma. Each soul goes to the outer plane that fits it best according to the soul's morality (previously known as Alignment).

And people on Golarion know about Hell and the other planes. If they then decide that Lawful Evil is their way, that is on them. Not on Pharasma.

Though she WILL intervene to keep things in balance (presumably because interplanar wars would weaken the Cycle through the River of Souls literally becoming a battleground).

The issue is that while Geb's view IS subjective, it's a response to Pharasma's view. Since the text expects you to get the vibe that Geb's full of it, you can then extrapolate that Pharasma's reasons are correct, and Pharasma is, from what I understand, infallible (as far as Pathfinder is concerned).

That's one reason why I wanted to discuss this, frankly: it feels like there's a disconnect between Pathfinder and Starfinder's opinions on undeath, Starfinder treating undead as morally neutral while Pathfinder implies they're not.

While yes, the devs have stated one game's canon doesn't impact the other, I feel like this is something that could cause problems for writers of both games in the future, as they have different ideas on the fundamental metaphysics of the game world and the intended moral and ethical dynamics of their respective narratives.

while a mindless skeleton can keep trucking for all eternity, and never *needs* to kill anything to sustain itself.

Minor clarification, but skeletons actually DO need to "feed," replacing bones in their body that have been broken due to accident or violence, or just deteriorated over time due to the inherent entropy of void energy powering them.

"You have basic undead benefits. For your undead hunger, you don't eat flesh like ghouls or drink blood like vampires, but you do collect bones you can use to help yourself mend" Book of the Dead, page 55.

Presumably this is what leads mindless skeletons left to their own devices to violence: they seek more fresh bones and when they encounter living beings, they've no reservations about ripping through whatever meat is between them and that prize.

Ardoinel

Sorry, Cerrus still has two actions, and then it’s the spiders’ turns before you can take your turn. You already killed one spider this turn.

Sorry, I thought it was the top of a new round!

QuidEst wrote:

- It's environmentally bad, just on a cosmic scale rather than a local one. This is why Pharasma herself is against it. The other reasons are much more useful arguments for her church to make, because people don't even care too much about stuff that affects the planet they live on, let alone 'reality as a whole long after all life on the planet is long dead anyway'. I'm going to lump in "it's just wrong (Pharasma says so)" into here.

I feel like there's an actual reason other than 'Grey Lady dun like it', like all souls are kinda recycled, even if some ka or khaibit-like bit of them goes on to become a Petitioner or whatever, some other vital bit of them swirls down the big drain at the bottom of creation (the 'Negative' plane) and spat back out all shiny and new at the big spigot at the top of creation (the 'Positive' plane), and that there's a finite amount of 'soul' out there. Every bit of it siphoned off to form a shadow, spectre, wraith, or still inhabiting a fleshy undead like a vampire, ghoul or lich, is subtracting from the soul-river, and making either A) less people to be born, or B) just as many people to be born, but with *less soul*, making them hollow empty people...

I could see it as a faux cosmological version of the old sci-fi / fantasy trope about societies run by immortals (via body-swapping tech, or just vampires or whatever) being stagnant and having zero upward mobility because the 'old boy's club' in charge *never actually dies* and ends up clinging to power and the title of Prince being an eternal sentence, since the King will never pass on his crown.

Those who cling to existence aren't just metaphorically stealing from future generations (by hanging on to power, property, wealth, opportunities, rather than allow the next generations to ever have any), but if some element of souls are indeed recycled (and we do know that not *every* element of a person goes on to any new Petitioner existence, as at least some lose memories of life and, more or...

This was the impression I got, yes, along with the fact that undead constantly need to feed on life to keep from deteriorating, and that does similar damage to the souls of their victims, especially with undead whose feeding habits produce more of their kind, such as shadows, wraiths and ghouls.

From what we've seen, we can extrapolate that undeath is, at the end of the day, an unsustainable state: the undead need to feed on life will result in one of two ends: either they will overhunt in their territory and end up deteriorating into nonsentience and frailty, or their predations draw the attention of adventuring parties that will destroy them.

This deterioration can only be STALLED, not overcome, and it's why intelligent undead tend to form underground societies in urban locations, to facilitate their feeding needs with people that "no one will miss" and ensure their own personal comfort. This is also the role the Church of Urgathoa fulfills: acting as a middleman to the undead in procuring food and helping people who want to be undead become that. The logical endpoint of these systems is Geb, where the undead have reached critical mass and subjugated the living, making them into a slave and livestock class. But despite Geb's rosy language, it's a situation that happened largely without him, as the Blood Lords organized under him to keep their own gravy trains going while he moped over Nex. And the general impression one gets of Geb (the nation) is that it's very invested in maintaining its status quo (the whole point of the Blood Lords AP, as has been discussed) and regards both the possibility that Nex (the wizard) is returning and the increased enthusiasm this has stirred in Geb (the wizard) and in Nex (the nation) with kind of an "ohhhhhh s!~+..." vibe, because they understand the house of cards their nation is, and any disruption to the supply of Quick coming in to supply the hungers of the undead, and the supply of cheap food going out that makes their neighbors tolerate them could make the whole thing come crashing down.

That's what I'm trying to say: ostensibly Pharasma's reasons for hating unlife, that you cannot invert void energy to sustain life indefinitely any more than you can use vitality energy to kill, which is why undead beings constantly need to feed on living things to keep entropy at bay, that attempting to do this yanks souls from the River of Souls and damages them, which in turn is damaging to the universe itself, these appear to be objective facts of the Universe, or else Geb wouldn't be devoting so much time and energy trying to refute them, and thus, in order to practice the kind of necromancy people typically want to do when playing a capital-N Necromancer (conjuring hordes of skeletons/zombies/ghosts to defeat their enemies, mostly), you're inherently committing a violation one way or another, and the only way you can believe you're not is if you similarly begin making excuses for yourself, or to just not care.

That the devs are implicitly stating there is no moral way to use undead beings, because it inherently violates and harms the body and soul of the person you're using and there's no meaningful way anyone can consent to that. That the only ethical necromancy is that which specifically rejects the intended gameplay of a "Necromancer" class or archetype by focusing on DESTROYING undead beings and laying them to rest, in which case they're indistinguishable from your average heroic cleric or wizard.

If that's the case then why does the subtext in Book of the Dead imply so strongly that Geb's assertions of undeath being as natural as life when it's literally the energies of destruction and entropy being used for creative purposes, which is why undead have their continual need to consume and destroy, and that the living and undead can coexist when his own nation has undead dominating the living as slaves, not as equal partners, are him talking out of his ass and making excuses for himself?

After all, before Remaster we could totally have Good Summoners with undead eidolon, Good casters using Animate Dead, Good PCs with undead Familiar...

Yeah, but I thought the devs' opinion on things like that was "that was a mistake" the way Asmodean paladins, Erastil's misogyny or that one thing about Zyphus were.

I'm sorry, but I do not recall anything in canon supporting this.

When you're dead, you're not making undead anymore. You are then judged based on your acts and beliefs and sent to the proper afterlife accordingly. AFAIK Pharasma does not have a special place for the souls of necromancers. Once you're dead, you're judged and your soul is recycled just like any other and the cycle of life and death goes on.

But don't the activities OF a necromancer earn them a bad afterlife in the first place because of the implicit violation of consent from animating a corpse or binding a spirit to do your bidding?

Creating undead will have zero impact on Pharasma's judgement. Unless you are one of her faithfuls I guess.

Just like having been an undead before her judgement has no impact either.

It is the existence of undead she abhors.

I'm confused, how would doing the thing she abhors more than anything else in the Universe during your life NOT impact her judgment of your soul? Pharasma's judgment supercedes all other authority in the Universe, so anyone who breaks her rules and is subject to her judgment would be punished accordingly, right? That's why your average necromancer begins looking to become undead no matter the reasons they got into necromancy in the first place, because they know Pharasma will make an example out of them if they die of old age or have an accident.

Now I want some poutine with extra cheese curds!

There was poutine there...as well as dill pickle poutine, apparently. Pickle slices and a ranch dressing drizzle. ( ">﹏< )

But was there fried butter?!?!!? I hear you northern people have that. It offends my southern heart we didn't do it first.

I didn't see it, but I don't doubt it was there.

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Like, what's the alternative if you wanna play a misunderstood goth hero with spooky dark magic being used for good ends and the Blood Lords AP isnt an option?

Note, the Blood Lords AP is "maintain the status quo to prevent a worse situation," not "spooky dark magic being used for good ends."

You can possibly/probably make "fighting fire with fire" work for Abomination Vaults, Outlaws of Alkenstar, and maybe Seven Dooms for Sandpoint. The upcoming Hellbreakers and Hell's Destiny APs, for the necrologist in particular, may also have opportunities (devils vs. undead).

Yes, I was more citing Blood Lords as an AP that is morally "dark" enough that any concerns about "ethical necromancy" are effectively moot, since PCs written up for it likely just don't care about whether or not they're desecrating the bodies and souls of the dead, or what Pharasma thinks of them, since said PCs are either undead already or plan on becoming such at the first opportunity.

Also, Pharasma worship is banned in Geb. Too many of the "rich and powerful" are undead.

Right, and...

Note that Summon spells in PF2 create facsimiles, so you aren't desecrating anything or anybody's remains/spirit/etc. w/ Summon Undead (vs. Animate Undead where you were, however contrived it was for such bodies to appear at your location even with low-Rank magic).

Wait, summoned undead aren't real?!

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Like, what's the alternative if you wanna play a misunderstood goth hero with spooky dark magic being used for good ends and the Blood Lords AP isnt an option?

Note, the Blood Lords AP is "maintain the status quo to prevent a worse situation," not "spooky dark magic being used for good ends."

You can possibly/probably make "fighting fire with fire" work for Abomination Vaults, Outlaws of Alkenstar, and maybe Seven Dooms for Sandpoint. The upcoming Hellbreakers and Hell's Destiny APs, for the necrologist in particular, may also have opportunities (devils vs. undead).

Yes, I was more citing Blood Lords as an AP that is morally "dark" enough that any concerns about "ethical necromancy" are effectively moot, since PCs written up for it likely just don't care about whether or not they're desecrating the bodies and souls of the dead, or what Pharasma thinks of them, since said PCs are either undead already or plan on becoming such at the first opportunity.

Exactly, and her anathema still include "create undead" and "desecrate a corpse." And I'd argue it's pretty easy to infer from the rest of her description that she'd consider summoning physical undead or conjuring a horde like the Necrologist does to be such forms of desecration.

It's not even so much about Pharasma's edicts and anathema considering such a character wouldn't worship her in the first place, but her position as perhaps the most powerful deity in the Universe and the general tone the writing takes with her as merely the agent and custodian of the Cycle of Souls, indicates that the conceit that every disruption of that Cycle damages the souls involved and breaks the Universe a tiny amount, slowly but over time hastening the end of the Universe, is objective fact, not an opinion of hers that can be debated.

As far as the narrative in Pathfinder is concerned, Pharasma is always right.

With the Necromancer base class on the way and the Necrologist archetype in Battlecry! (as well as the undead eidolon summoners and various necromancy-themed archetypes before them), I got to thinking about how they might function within parties and the wider setting.

I think it goes without saying that the "ethical necromancer" is a popular anti-hero kind of character throughout fantasy media, making agreements with living people to gain permission to use their remains after death, returning their reanimated servants to death when they're no longer needed, using their dark powers to stop truly evil villains, etc.

This is even more pronounced in Starfinder, where Eox is a prominent member of the Pact Worlds' alliance, and borai being a playable versatile heritage right in the Core Rulebook.

But the vibe I get from other parts of the text, ESPECIALLY Book of the Dead, is that, in terms of authorial intent, such necromancers are kidding themselves at best. That although the concept of Alignment no longer plagues Pathfinder, the creation and use of undead beings is still wrong on a moral and metaphysical level.

For example, in Geb's narration from Book of the Dead, he describes undeath as a morally neutral state of being, only opposed by Pharasma because it's a rejection of her authority, but we know creating undead beings does damage their souls and the fabric of the Universe itself, and the clear subtext is that Geb is making excuses for himself and projecting his own flaws onto Pharasma, much like he does with other prominent undead figures such as Ordellia Whilwren or Walkena, attempting to insinuate they're as bad/selfish as he is to salve his own insecurities and avoid admitting or accepting when he's wrong.

The Hallowed Necromancer archetype also specifically prohibits creating undead as one of its anathema. While that's obvious given its whole purpose is using knowledge of necromancy to destroy willing undead and put unwilling ones to rest, it also means you're not allowed to, say, call upon the souls of your dead relatives to help you fight and then let them go back to their rest afterwards. The act of disturbing the dead's rest without Pharasma's explicit approval through the spells approved for speaking to the dead and resurrecting them, no matter how selfish or selfless the reasons, is an inherent violation. Even the Necrologist's technique of recording the names of battlefield dead to summon them temporarily, while likely rationalized as a way of respecting them, crosses this line.

Obviously, for some players, this is a non-issue. Playing a morally dark character who either doesn't care about the state of their soul or has deluded themselves into thinking they're an exception is the point. Or heck, just playing a straight-up villain, like the antipaladin and desecrator Champion causes. But that's not for everybody, and it feels like the way the text reads in regards to this is that anyone who uses zombies and skeletons to do their fighting, even if they put them back in the graves afterward, has crossed a line, and that they may as well double down and do actual evil, especially the kind of evil that can turn you into an undead being yourself, because otherwise they'll get to the afterlife upon dying of old age (if not sooner) and Pharasma will be waiting for them with a sawed-off shotgun.

Like, what's the alternative if you wanna play a misunderstood goth hero with spooky dark magic being used for good ends and the Blood Lords AP isnt an option?

I'm back from the State Fair! I had no less than THREE different kinds of cheese curds!

I'm back from the State Fair! I had no less than THREE different kinds of cheese curds!

I do too! I'm going to the Minnesota State Fair on Sunday! :D

"Not leaving it that long," Luke replied in shaking his head emphatically. "Don't want to give the old general the satisfaction."

Surely some spell-for-hire could be found in town, someone to magic away what amounted to temporary scars? Not that the young man really believed Akhentepi was observing them from beyond the veil, grinning and hooting. It was just the principle of the thing. You didn't let spiteful misers win.

Jolánka wordlessly passes by Luke and puts her wide-brimmed hat on his head.

Heading west towards the Grand Mausoleum, the party catches glimpses of the Sunburst Market. While the markets are always bustling, the opening of the ancient ruins and tombs have brought out the crowds, some merely eager to catch sight of unearthed marvels, some eager to acquire these treasures for themselves. The markets have thusly spread to surround the Golden Lake between the market and the Pharasmin temple.

Marwanun was seated on the edge of the Golden Lake, tossing a piece of choice meat to a lethargic white-scaled crocodile. She seems distracted, and so the party is almost upon her by the time she notices your approach.

"Oh! Hello, my courtiers! Sorry, I was just feeding Ebis here." She gestures to the ten-foot long crocodile, softly growling in a pleased soft of manner as it slid back deeper into the yellow-dusted waters. "You all look ... well dusted. How was your first trip?"

She then notices the marks on some of your foreheads. "Oh ... oh dear. That's not very flattering, now is it?"

Jolánka smiles a bit at the crocodile as it departs. It seemed the reptiles got a pretty sweet deal here in Osirion, the locals just giving out free food for doing what crocodiles do.

"He's adorable," she comments.

At the mention of the marks on some of the group, she nods.

"Our first day has been a success, though not without embarrassment. Desna reminding us to be humble, I suppose."

She helps the others display their spoils.

"Be careful with that one," she says as Marwanun examines the box banging around lightly. "We managed to trap a guardian construct in there. If it doesn't attack the moment that thing's opened, it'll probably make a break for the Tomb to resume its post."

Djehuti of El-Shelad wrote:

Haha. Int 8 Fighter quoting an obscure 400 year old politician. :D

The Int 8 Fighter from an academic family with an entire class feature dedicated to memorization, akshually! We numpties are gonna have to stick together against these elitist Ivy Leaguers, Amal.

"What? What did I say?" It was a strangely startled Luke that looked to the Ustalavan as she, not for the first time, compared him to a camel's backside, his peepers seemingly growing in unfurling from their typical squinting cynicism into wide-eyed confusion. The confusion was genuine, too. Accustomed as he was to the direct, often rude, speech of scoundrels and the most laddish of lads, the young man didn't always grasp the more oblique social ways of... well, most normal people, really. Or indeed women, if one was to be trite.

Hard-headed as he was, however, he recovered quickly enough. The Taldan had never been one to let an insult go unanswered even if he wasn't entirely sure what their dispute was. Something to figure out along the way. "No, listen, why don't you walk your clever clogs over to this 'common ground' of yours and leave me be, yeah? Facts are facts! The armour's bad and that's that, alright?! And the kid's sword arm is as good as mine!" He wedged another chest under one pit to point towards Amal. "And you’re right to call me out just as the elf’s wrong for keeping mum! We should say what we mean! And I hope your dad’s alright!" A pause heavy with aimless energy. "I don’t know what we’re arguing about!"

Jolánka sighs again as she recovers her temper.

"I was trying to build some rapport with you by recommending you receive an item that I thought you'd use best out of all of us, since Amal wears heavier armor than you, and I'm nowhere near fast enough to protect myself the way armor like that requires, hence why I wear my father's old mail. And your dismissal of it as 'trash' felt like a dismissal of that rapport. It's not about the armor, it's that I was trying to look out for you and give you first pick of stuff that might actually be useful to us from Ancient Osirion's treasures, as opposed to just selling it off to sit in some dusty collection to be gawked at by unappreciative undergraduates."

Her tone is measured, deliberate. The way someone talks when they're trying to make their thought process clear.

"I'm sorry I blew up at you for it. But I don't know how else to relate to you since you have little interest in the academic or spiritual aspects of what we're doing, and I've got equally little interest in profit beyond how it can facilitate the rest of my work and don't share your seeming contempt for Osirion's culture and people, and frankly I'm surprised the others, actual natives, have been as tolerant of it as they have been. Doe that make sense?"

Sooner or later all my characters end up being as autistic as I am, it seems. <_<

I was already excited, but finding out my favorite space fish's voice actor is heading the cast?! The Kickstarter can't come fast enough!

Kind of bold and a bit risky of Paizo to give Sarenrae, Iomedae, and Desna no mention in their 2e Starfinder Player's Core not gonna lie.

There's mention, it's just kinda in passing. Desna is referenced as the Song of the Spheres in the Rhythm Mystic Connection, for example. Besides, they're three of the most popular PC deities in either game, I think they can handle waiting to get emphasis in later adventure paths or deluxe adventures.

What's interesting is that Desna kind of got MORE stuff in her portfolio in 1e Starfinder because she was essentially filling in for Shelyn as a music goddess, emphasizing the "Song" part of her "Song of the Spheres" title.

So it does make a certain amount of sense that she's stepping back from the metaphorical spotlight now that Zon-Shelyn is establishing themselves both literally in-universe as their older churches reorganize and figuratively as we learn more about them and get a feel for them at the table.

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

And lastly, Vanguard is probably not gonna be a Vanguard perse. Frankly, it's name is misleading, and will become especially misleading when Pathfinder classes join the mix, as vanguard does little to invoke its actual abilities. So it would likely be due for a name change. I vote Entropath.

To be truthful, this is part of the reason why Vanguard never "clicked" with me in 1e. It felt like the entropy-related aspects were just kind of "there" in the class without clear guidance on their place within the setting apart from the villain-coded Ataxxea. Were you supposed to be spiritual as a Vanguard? No clue, the class text didn't really offer an opinion the way it did for Solarians. It felt redundant with Solarians narratively and felt like it was more interested in its mechanical role of "tank class" than it was in its narrative role of "empowered by entropy."

Obviously this is more a failure of imagination on my part, because the class seemed to be very popular from my admittedly limited experience, but I just could never really come up with character concepts whose narratives would be best served by being a vanguard...

Same. Vanguard was a giant set of off-putting mistakes to me.

I could easily see something similar mechanically and flavor-wise show up as a Solarian class archetype. Hopefully the name can be reclaimed by a more fitting class fantasy.

And it didn't help that we got to see actual variants of the Solarian in the form of things like the "electromagnus" solarians from Tech Revolution (which I imagine will return in the future, likely as a class archetype).

And lastly, Vanguard is probably not gonna be a Vanguard perse. Frankly, it's name is misleading, and will become especially misleading when Pathfinder classes join the mix, as vanguard does little to invoke its actual abilities. So it would likely be due for a name change. I vote Entropath.

To be truthful, this is part of the reason why Vanguard never "clicked" with me in 1e. It felt like the entropy-related aspects were just kind of "there" in the class without clear guidance on their place within the setting apart from the villain-coded Ataxxea. Were you supposed to be spiritual as a Vanguard? No clue, the class text didn't really offer an opinion the way it did for Solarians. It felt redundant with Solarians narratively and felt like it was more interested in its mechanical role of "tank class" than it was in its narrative role of "empowered by entropy."

Obviously this is more a failure of imagination on my part, because the class seemed to be very popular from my admittedly limited experience, but I just could never really come up with character concepts whose narratives would be best served by being a vanguard...

I mean, Iomedae gets plenty of mention in the Galaxy Guide with the Knights of Golarion chapter. Heck, her name's on every feat for their Archetype! :P