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After last night's episode, I agree with Penny Arcade's take, and am now rooting for the zombies to win.
I knew you'd eventually come around to my way of thinking, Pony. Welcome to Team Zombie!
The Undead Horde: Winning with the crushing weight of numbers since 1968.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Did they get soap in your Zombie apocalypse there little pony? I think the moral dilemma of zombie films is where the entertainment thrives. If its just people making the correct logical choices and ventilating each others skulls it wouldn't be interesting at all. Turn off AMC and turn on the PlayStation and go shoot a couple thousand zombies.
If there were actual moral dilemnas present, you might have a point. But there aren't any moral dilemnas - there are characters making stupid choices for the sake of creating drama and conflict. Drama requires characters that behave like people and have meaningful conflicts and discussions. That doesn't happen on this show at all. Rick dithers and can't make any decisions, Lori takes whatever route puts her in conflict with Rick and/or immediate peril, and Shane is right, but psychotic. The characters are rarely consistent from episode to episode, are constantly placing themselves in needless danger, and are generally unlikable.
Don't confuse your failure to understand and appreciate good television with a lack of sophistication on my part. If TWD told good stories and had believable characters, it would be good irrespective of the body count or non-optimal decisions. See also: BSG or Caprica as examples of talky shows that were (generally) also good dramas.
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Did they get soap in your Zombie apocalypse there little pony? I think the moral dilemma of zombie films is where the entertainment thrives. If its just people making the correct logical choices and ventilating each others skulls it wouldn't be interesting at all. Turn off AMC and turn on the PlayStation and go shoot a couple thousand zombies.If there were actual moral dilemnas present, you might have a point. But there aren't any moral dilemnas - there are characters making stupid choices for the sake of creating drama and conflict. Drama requires characters that behave like people and have meaningful conflicts and discussions. That doesn't happen on this show at all. Rick dithers and can't make any decisions, Lori takes whatever route puts her in conflict with Rick and/or immediate peril, and Shane is right, but psychotic. The characters are rarely consistent from episode to episode, are constantly placing themselves in needless danger, and are generally unlikable.
Don't confuse your failure to understand and appreciate good television with a lack of sophistication on my part. If TWD told good stories and had believable characters, it would be good irrespective of the body count or non-optimal decisions. See also: BSG or Caprica as examples of talky shows that were (generally) also good dramas.
+1 here pony. I find most of the drama to be stuff that is unbelievable even in a zombie-apocalypse....it is so overly manufactured that it takes away from the show. I still like the show, but I find the characters are totally un-realistic.
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I have to say that overall I really enjoy this show. But there are certain things that require suspension of disbelief in terms of their decisions.
Is it just me, or do way too many people in this show regularly venture out on their own? At night, or in the woods, or out of sight of their friends. Umm, there are killer zombies out there and they’ll like eat you.
And while on the subject of bad ideas, to me that farm doesn’t seem overly defensible. They have very few people and no real defenses like walls, fences, trenches, etc. Shouldn’t they have a way to seal off the farm house and hole up if a bunch of the living dead show up for a snack? I mean have a stocked pantry, storm cellar, well for water (and/or rain barrels), and so on?
The other thing that gets me with them is they make these runs into town to go to the drug store to get stuff. Umm, take a couple of pickups and some shotguns, roll up to the store, take everything out, and move it to your home base. Why keep making trips into town when town is full of walkers and other trouble?
Also, there’s that big car pileup they ended up at right before they found the farm. Why not take a few trips out there with a posse and drive some of those cars back to the farm? Easier than messing with siphoning gas and it gives you spare cars and parts if you need them.
Just my take. It's fun looking at the actions of the characters in terms of how a PC adventuring party would likely address them.
L
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well said. I think that's part of my frustration with the show - there is tension and drama in the simple acts that need to be taken for survival. Rather than inventing convoluted reasons to go to the pharmacy in town, have the characters go there to pick up a large quantity of supplies.
Reminds me of one of my favorite episodes of BSG near the end of the series, when the ship began to fall apart and even the most basic supplies (toothpaste) ran out.
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This show is falling apart, IMO. If you're going to take a popular comic series and turn it into the show, either follow the basic established story line or go with a different set of characters in the same 'world'. Killing Sophia was dumb, her relationship with Carl is important to his development. The last different-from-the-comic death was moronic. That character should have had major influence on Rick, but he wasn't really being played that way anyhow...
And of course, WHY THE HELL IS SHANE STILL ALIVE??!?
After last night's episode, I agree with Penny Arcade's take, and am now rooting for the zombies to win.
Nah, screw the zombies, I still like a few of the characters on the show.
Daryll and Glenn were ok, hopefully they come back to reality. Dale was ok, although he was wrong before he died. But he was still useful and not insane. It looks like Rick has totally lost it.
Seriously, could these people be any stupider? They live in a zombie apocalypse wasteland, and yet they organize late night firing squads (gee, I hope the zombies aren't attracted to the sounds of gunfire, good thing there's no evidence of that), have loud and stupid arguments in unknown, potentially zombie filled places (which, surprisingly, result in zombie attacks!)
Oh, you noticed that too about the execution? I was also thinking the same about Andrea's unneeded shot to the zombie (/Daryll). All it would take is a gang of zombies walking by on the road at the wrong time, and it's all over.
I'm just thankful Dale is finally out of our collective misery.
Although he was wrong in this last instance, he was still one of the nicer and useful people. I'd rather be with him than Andrea for instance (who would be dead if I were in the group).
I was actually sad when he died, he was a good character.
Also, how many times can Rick choke and not be called on it?
I believe he is going to be called on it. As a leader, you can't call for a group vote and then not carry through on the group's desires. If you wanted it to be YOUR choice, you don't call a group vote. Not following through and vetoing the group is just poor leadership. Of course you're going to get replaced.
Sure, Shane's a psycho, but he at least has some convincing arguments.
Most of the time he has s*** argument, except for the case of the prisoner, who should have never left that fence.
Shane is short sighted and doesn't think of the future or ramifications. For example, dumbass wanted to leave Hershell to his own devices, and if that had happenned, they would have had 30+ guys at the farm raping and killing. Nice work Shane! /golfclap
Now we're back to finding Sophia, except the new game is "do we kill the prisoner or just argue about it a lot while taking him on scenic tours of the neighborhood and/or wussing out at the last minute."
Yeah, they need to kill this guy and move on. Probably what's going to happen is he's going to escape, find his buddies, and they're going to have to leave the farm before the end of the season.
I agree, Carl is really immature, but it's his parents fault for not giving him any responsibility, information or training.
don't get me wrong, I think the kid is a slime ball. He's definitely shifty to no end. And he is most likely a threat, but killing him in cold blood makes those who do it no better than the crew he ran with.
The proof that he offered that he "wasn't anything like his group" (who raped 2 teenagers) was actually proof that he was EXACTLY like them.
Worse case: I've seen people lie like that before, and most likely he participated, he's just an idiot because he doesn't even know that's not a story you share.
Best case: He just watched, and maybe I have a hero complex, but you just don't watch that kind of thing happen, you argue and/or kill your "buddies". I would. And for just watching, he wouldn't have made it out of that barn alive.
Either way he's morally devoid and the group doesn't want him. If they let him go, there are only two things that can happen: the zombies kill him (he dies) or he finds his group (we die). The choice is obvious, it has to be him.
I'm with you guys as well. Although I like (liked?) a few of the characters, I wish it were more realistic. I guess it begs the questions: "Are people really that stupid?". Maybe they are, but it makes them unlikable and deserving to die.
I also wish the survival itself was more challenging. For example:
1) How come food is so easy to come by? Why no grocery store runs? Do they seriously get enough protein from just milk and eggs? Isn't the lack of meat from Ottis not hunting hurting them?
2) Why does Hershell seem to have power? Especially at night. Generators eat a lot of gas. It would also be really obvious to anyone passing by in the night. Everything imo, should be by candlelight or in the dark, which makes things infinitely more realistic and scary.
3) Why does it seem so easy to cook and make full course meals at Hershell's? It's like nothing ever happenned. Sorry, this just blows my mind. You'd think they'd be no fresh veggies/fruit (unless preserved), no meat, and lots of canned good, milk, and eggs.
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Now this is entirely my guesswork but I'm thinking Darryl is not long for this world and he will be the next character to die. (after Shane of course)
Hear me out, the Darryl character is currently filling the role that Michonne fills in the comic (survivalist muscle that does the dirty work and steps up to keep Rick centered).
Considering that we've been told she wouldn't show up in season 2 (meaning sometime in season 3 we guess), begs the question how are you gonna have two characters doing the same job at the same time?
That leaves them only 2 real choices, get rid of the duplicate (the Darryl fans will riot) or change one of the character into something else (bothe the Darryl and Michonne fans will riot).
What do you all think they'll do?
Wow. Just...wow. I can't say I'm sorry to see Shane go, nor do I think Rick is a murderer, considering Shane murdered Randall for the express purpose of leading Rick out in the dark to murder him. I think Rick made the right decision for keeping himself and his family, as well as everyone else, safe.
The mind-blower this episode is that the virus has very possibly become airborne. Seriously? What does this mean for everyone? Is everybody infected but you only turn when you die? So many freakin' questions!!
Explanation:
The show is called the "Walking Dead"...but that's not because of the walkers. Instead, that title refers to the living. That's because everyone who's currently alive is the "walking dead" since they'll all rise again as a walker when they die. Unless, of course, they die due to major brain trauma. That'll make sure they don't rise again. But, kill them any other way and they'll come back as a zombie.
It's one of the core premises behind the zombie apocalypse. Presumably, the virus results from something which everyone's been exposed to a long time ago...before the primary outbreak. That's why the military couldn't control it. How many people die of natural causes everyday? Everytime that happens, another zombie is born. And, the more people they kill, the more zombies rise. Even deaths among the living as they fight...or as collateral damage resulting from military strikes to put down the zombie population, just ensures more zombies arise.
So, there's really only two possible outcomes for the future of mankind in that world. Either the young and newborns who haven't yet been exposed to the virus are able to outlast their parents and restore society after the rest of the infected die out and/or they find a cure for the virus. Or, everyone is doomed to perpetuate the zombie outbreak as they die of old age and there's no one capable of finding a cure as society completely collapses.
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So, I figure last night's revelation begs another question (unless it's already been answered and I missed it):
What did crazy CDC doctor whisper to Rick at the end of season 1? I'm guessing, after seeing Rick's surprise at Shane rising, that it wasn't "Oh, hey, everyone who dies becomes a walker." I'm guessing it was more along the lines of "Your wife is pregnant."
I myself was wondering why they never bothered to go back out to the highway. That pileup was a goldmine for a scavenger.
As far as the zombies, I'm less worried about everyone returning as a zombie and more worried about the supposed collective consciousness that they seem to have. Anyone see the visions zombie-Shane had? Yeah that's scary.
I thought they were way out from the house myself, but in the final scene you can see the house clearly in the near distance behind Carl and Rick, despite the fog. It looked like they were just in the next field over. Those walkers might have been a group that just entered the area, so they didn't hear any of the earlier shots.
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So, I figure last night's revelation begs another question (unless it's already been answered and I missed it):
What did crazy CDC doctor whisper to Rick at the end of season 1? I'm guessing, after seeing Rick's surprise at Shane rising, that it wasn't "Oh, hey, everyone who dies becomes a walker." I'm guessing it was more along the lines of "Your wife is pregnant."
Although, thinking further on the subject, it could be the doctor whispered something as simple as "Burn your dead", and now the context is becoming clear.
I bet he whispered "Snape kills Dumbledore"
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Yeah, I figured it was a herd that just came into the area, maybe the same ones that had been in town.
The thing that would have me concerned was that
Yeah, I figured it was a herd that just came into the area, maybe the same ones that had been in town.
...was glad that Carl shot Shane in some fashion or another. That was a serious developmental point for him in the comic.
I was curious how they'd work that in. I actually like many of the changes they've made to the story so far. Not everything in the comics translates to TV all that well. And, the changes they have made, have mostly helped serve the character development and summon up more sustained tension for the viewer...i.e., keeping Shane around for far longer than his appearance in the comics, knocking off Sophia earlier than expected to develop Carol's character more...not to mention Daryl...and, I think they offed Dale earlier than the comics because they didn't want to have to deal with some of the scenes involving him later in the comic. Plus, having both the group's "angel" and the "devil" conscience knocked off in back-to-back episodes with Dale and Shane going down puts the rest of the group into an even more morally gray mindset now. It's good grist for sustained storytelling.
The thing that would have me concerned was that Randall was killed by having his neck broken. If it was the cause of death, it would indicate that the spine was severed or severely damaged, yet the zombified version of him was moving without issue. It could mean that is the head is connected in any way to the torso the entire thing remains mobile. <shudder>
Well, zombies have taken some pretty serious hits to the neck and back areas with shotgun blasts and blades before. Yet, they always got back up and kept moving until someone puts something through their brain. I'm sure such injuries probably slow them down more. And maybe that's why Randall's zombie was wandering a bit more aimlessly when Glenn and Daryl found it in the woods?
Just my two cents,
--Neil
...Yeah, I figured it was a herd that just came into the area, maybe the same ones that had been in town.** spoiler omitted **
Plus remember the one Glenn hit with the board in the pharmacy? He nearly knocked that one's head off and it still came after him.
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Plus remember the one Glenn hit with the board in the pharmacy? He nearly knocked that one's head off and it still came after him.Yeah, I figured it was a herd that just came into the area, maybe the same ones that had been in town.** spoiler omitted **...
D'oh! I forgot about that one. Still, makes slowing them down more difficult ... <shudder>
I think the Herd has been building all season. The Walkers ID each other by scent, so burning all the Walkers from the barn may have been an invitation.
We have at least two dead cows, Dale and Randal to add the scent of blood in the air. And it is possible that the Herd may be following the scent of the Walkers we have seen. Like bees, they might give off a pheromone that draws more of their kind when hurt or killed.
Or maybe Otis the Walker just lead them home.
Oh god, I hope they don’t kill Daryl for whoever Michonne is.
I’m going to miss Shane, because in many ways he was the voice of reason, even if he went about it the wrong way.
And I actually think Shane did the right thing killing Randall. (See previous Randall argument). He just should have fessed up to it. There’s no way the group would kill him for it. They all agreed to it before, it was Rick that wussed out.
I agree that Rick was acting in self defense only. Shane had his 2nd chance in the bus… and he blew it.
I still don’t believe that a zombie apocalypse could ever occur, if it was done by bite only; there are just too many guns (especially in the US) and zombies are weak. 4 zombies die for everyone they kill, not a good ratio. The initial disease would need to be airborne and transform at least 90% of the population.
Honestly, if a zombie is created when someone died, today, we’d learn to live with it.
I want to know what the CDC doctor whispered as well. Everyone does.
I’m also curious why there were so many walkers within line of sight to the house, considering they just finished clearing them out. Or why the fences won’t stop them, especially since they worked so hard on that after Daryll died. It’s just counter intuitive. It looked like there were no fences between them and the house.
It kind of bugs me that the show is being overly dramatic. For example, why didn’t Karl say “Look out Dad!”. And again, how come Karl was out in the woods alone, AGAIN, when the house was on lock down? I enjoy TV when it makes more sense. Either that or Lori is a terrible mom.
I'm gonna go with Lori is a terrible mom.
As far as the likelihood of a zombie apocalypse, if it started in Africa, Central America, South America, or India it would go global. If it started in A first world nation or China, the medical and military response would be significant enough to contain it.
But if it goes airborne? Yeah we're f'd.
Im not sure that the virus is airbourne. I suspect it has something to do with the the scratches and walker blood that has been on Shane multiple times in the last 2 seasons. The two dead guards at the depot where Rick and Shane fought had no bites, just scratches. Perhaps the virus (or whatever it is) must build up to a threshhold before before overcoming one's humanity. A bite would inject more zombie-ness than a scratch or blood-skin contact, but upon the death of one's brain (when one stops being human) the zombie-ness would take over.
Not scientific AT ALL, but still food for thought.
I do not think I have seen this mentioned yet, but while it is probably now airborne, maybe normal death will still not trigger it. Think about Randall. His neck was broken by Shane and he rose up again. But he also had that nasty leg wound that the virus could enter through. And what about Sophie? Did she even have any wounds that could have been caused by a zombie? I would have to re-watch the episode where she came out of the barn to be sure. So maybe it can only infect you if it gets into your blood stream through a wound or scratch or open sore, etc. So don't ever bleed and you won't rise as a zombie when you die, do and hopefully someone destroys your brain on death so you don't rise. And now that we have seen this, what about those people that Rick shot in that store or other people killed other than by zombie during the course of the show? Any of them that were not shot in the head could show up again as zombies since others not killed by zombies have risen, providing they died after the virus mutated to it's current form.
Not long after "the group" got to the farm they found a Walker down in a well.
They got a rope around it and dragged it up out of the well- but it split in half with all of its guts (and lower half) falling back down into the water.
It was never, ever made mention of again. To my knowledge, they never told anyone at the house about it.
Now you have two people who have 1) been drinking the water and 2) died relatively soonly after.
(assuming they watered the kid from the same water they all drank, and assuming Shane was also drinking well water- even from a well closer to the house).
Contaminated water table + drinking contaminated water = you zombify regardless of how you die.
Thats just my hypothesis, anyway :)
-S
Not long after "the group" got to the farm they found a Walker down in a well.
They got a rope around it and dragged it up out of the well- but it split in half with all of its guts (and lower half) falling back down into the water.
It was never, ever made mention of again. To my knowledge, they never told anyone at the house about it.
Now you have two people who have 1) been drinking the water and 2) died relatively soonly after.
(assuming they watered the kid from the same water they all drank, and assuming Shane was also drinking well water- even from a well closer to the house).
Contaminated water table + drinking contaminated water = you zombify regardless of how you die.
Thats just my hypothesis, anyway :)
-S
Maggie was there with them when it happened. I remember she looked positively horrified as she watched them bash its brains in. Also, the whole reason they wanted to pull it out rather than just shoot it down there was to prevent contamination of the well. Zombie virus or no, most people are going to realize that having rotting meat in your water supply is a health hazard.
...a bunch of cool stuff...
But here's the real gem.
Just my take. It's fun looking at the actions of the characters in terms of how a PC adventuring party would likely address them.
I was just watching the last episode tonight (before the season finale of course) and it occurred to me that Daryl, the Ranger, is a perfect example of a loner-type character. He's initially with his brother and we never really see how they join the party, but it's clear where their loyalties lie. After his brother is left for dead, even though Rick tries to make it right, he's pretty aloof after that.
Then the Sofia thing hits and Daryl latches on to that. I mean, dude had depth and feelings. Who freaking knew? He withdraws again, after the sceen at the barn.
Fast-forward over the next few episodes, after Carol tells him he's a valued member of the team, he finally starts to warm up.
Daryl, despite his lack of comic book cred, has got to be one of my favorite characters on the show. He and Glen, they can be in my party. You can keep Lori.
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Not long after "the group" got to the farm they found a Walker down in a well.
They got a rope around it and dragged it up out of the well- but it split in half with all of its guts (and lower half) falling back down into the water.
It was never, ever made mention of again. To my knowledge, they never told anyone at the house about it.
Now you have two people who have 1) been drinking the water and 2) died relatively soonly after.
(assuming they watered the kid from the same water they all drank, and assuming Shane was also drinking well water- even from a well closer to the house).
Contaminated water table + drinking contaminated water = you zombify regardless of how you die.
Thats just my hypothesis, anyway :)
-S
It was mentioned again - to Herschel. Rick and Maggie both brought it up to Herschel as evidence that the walkers were actually deceased.
Carol's just got a bad case of the twelves. He's trying to find his place in a world that wants to eat him.
You can keep Lori.What? But who would do the laundry?
OUCH. I'll take Carol. For someone who's watched her entire family zombified, she's handling it pretty well. Plus she's quite domesticated.
They said the security guards had no bites OR scratches. I believe that means the virus is airborne and although the survivors are immunne, I believe that everyone who dies becomes a zombie.
I don't believe that Shane's actions have anything to do with him slowly becoming a zombie. Shane is just Shane.
They said the well was contaminated and would be closed, after they lost the zombies legs.
Hmm I totally missed that convo with Hershel.. my bad.
As for that particular well being closed off: once the water table is contaminated its contaminated. Unless the well in question was very very far far away I'd imagine it would contaminate all the water at the land.
That being said- Geology and how water tables work isn't exactly a hobby of mine.. I could very well be wrong.
My understand though was that most if not all of the wells in a given area are generally drilled to the same depth and take part of the same water table. (or aquifer, or whatever).
I'm more than willing to be wrong however. An expert on it, I am not.
-S
Jason, did they say no scratches at all or just that maybe there were scratches? I would have to watch it again to be sure. Plus, unless the comic book gives more on them, we have no clue how they died to begin with.
Selgard, even if you are right about wells and water tables, that does not mean that the comic book or show writers did research into that. Drama tends to be more important than factual reality, after all.
Jason, did they say no scratches at all or just that maybe there were scratches? I would have to watch it again to be sure. Plus, unless the comic book gives more on them, we have no clue how they died to begin with
The dead buddy cops are not in the comic.
Selgard, even if you are right about wells and water tables, that does not mean that the comic book or show writers did research into that. Drama tends to be more important than factual reality, after all.
Kirkman, at least through book 8, never really addresses what causes zombification. All we know is what has been presented on the show so far. People who die and haven't been bitten, at least some of 'em, might reanimate and "come back" as zombies.
I haven't read the comics. (or any comics for that matter.. didn't even know this was based on one until this thread).
I totally agree with the "drama trumps reality" as far as it goes. I was just presenting that them drinking contaminated water would be at least one possibility behind why the 2 guys who hadn't been attacked/injured by zombies later rose as zombies.
Its also entirely possible that its the air.. but I'd imagine it'll be the water simply because that would force them out of the farm.
If its the air .. well.. air is air.. no out running that. All it'll really change is that when someone dies however way you blast their brains out on the spot. If its the water though.. that'll cause some actual issue. (like.. having to leave and find new water)
I like the farm and all that, but.. imo its also time for them to move around abit. They've gotten a little too cozy.
But.. thats just me :)
Whatever they do, I'll keep watching.. its still one of my favorite shows, a (shambling) step ahead of Being Werewolf and Lost Girl
-S
I like the farm and all that, but.. imo its also time for them to move around abit. They've gotten a little too cozy.
Considering the previews for next week's season finale, will there be much of a farm left to stay at anyway?
Considering the previews for next week's season finale, will there be much of a farm left to stay at anyway?
Nope. In the main storyline, they eventually leave it. And a whole lot more action takes place at their next digs. You'll see plenty of that in Season 3, as they've already cast one of the primary characters for that part of the story.