One of my player asked me if his Wizard could cast this spell to duplicate a Efreet or Noble Djinn and let him cast his wishes for him. To say it with the "Gamers": There must be a rule against this. But where? What do I overlook? Or the player?
As far as I can tell, the only rule against it would be "DM decides that doesn't work".
It isn't very easy to do, though. You need to make an ice sculpture that looks like an Efreet (or Noble Djinn), and spend 12 hours casting the Simulacrum.
That's a lot of time for spell-disruption :)
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Well, to begin with based on the line in Simulacrum that says "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level" the wizard would have to be caster level 20th for the Efreeti or caster level 20th for the Noble Djinn - Wizards can cast wish themselves by 17th level anyway - so what your gaining here is not so much the ability to cast wishes as to get away with doing it at a cheaper cost.
Besides this there is the line in Simulacrum that once you finish making the Simulacrum "it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and Special Abilities for a creature of that level or HD)
Based on this I would say that a Noble Djinn Simulacrum (the real creature of which is 10 HD) would be unable to grant wishes since it would only be a 5 HD Djinni - assuredly weaker than the typical 7 HD djinni which cannot grant wishes.
For the Efreeti you could attempt to make the same argument (but it is less effective since no lower HD version of the Efreeti exists to compare the lower HD simulacrum to) but even then you are creating a lawful evil outsider to grant your wishes instead of casting them yourself - which is much more likely to have any wishes you might manage to get out of an Efreeti have evil consequences/side effects even if the Efreeti is genuinely trying to help you - it just perceives what's good/bad for a character differently than the character is likely too.
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The Efreet and Djinn don't really mention whether their ability to grant Wishes are a function of their Hit Dice or not. I can't imagine a Simulacrum Efreeti at 5 Hit Dice being able to still grant Wishes at caster level 5. As the rules are not clear on this point, DMs must exercise their discretion.
I'd reason the Efreeti ability to grant wishes (Djinni must be captured, negating usefulness of them being created) is derived from a connection to the Outer or Elemental Planes, a connection the Simulacrum won't have since it's not really real or won't have because it's significantly de-powered.
Well, to begin with based on the line in Simulacrum that says "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level" the wizard would have to be caster level 20th for the Efreeti or caster level 20th for the Noble Djinn
I think you mixed up "twice your caster level" with "half your caster level".
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Well, to begin with based on the line in Simulacrum that says "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level" the wizard would have to be caster level 20th for the Efreeti or caster level 20th for the Noble DjinnI think you mixed up "twice your caster level" with "half your caster level".
Oh you know what, your right, I did, so in that case have fun creating djinn at 5th lvl when you mysteriously find a way to access 7th lvl spells :P
Ok, as some mentioned before, the wizard CAN create a noble djinn or an efreet! Obviously their wish ability is not based on HD or Caster Level. Both would be insufficent to cast wish! So it doesn´t matter that the wizard can only create a Simulacrum half as strong. The spell says:
"It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)"
If you are hard you can possibly say the efreet simulacrum can do that only once every two day (or once every day).
Please, there can be no such a great loophole. :(
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Great go ahead and try to make a Noble Djinn. But keep in mind that no matter what the creature will only have half of its original HD and abilities based off of said HD.I would simply rule that the abilities are tied directly to the HD of the creature as it has a bit of a clause to that effect on the creatures statblock.
For the Effreti this isnt the case but they are of the fire subtype and the body itself IS heated and would thereby cause itself to melt as soon as it is created, seeing as how the thing is made of snow and ice.
Loophole closed.
Ok, as some mentioned before, the wizard CAN create a noble djinn or an efreet! Obviously their wish ability is not based on HD or Caster Level. Both would be insufficent to cast wish! So it doesn´t matter that the wizard can only create a Simulacrum half as strong.
You're welcome to rule it that way if you want, but I disagree. A simulacrum is half as powerful as the original creature; which abilities are included and which are not would be up to the GM's understanding of the simulacrum's reduced power level relative to the original creature.
I would rule that a 5 HD "noble" djinn or efreet would not have access to wish, just as a 7 HD normal djinn does not.You can certainly rule otherwise, but it's your ruling that's "broken" rather than the (admittedly open-ended but nonetheless very adjudicable) spell itself.
First of all: I just like to play RAW. I´m the DM in our group. But if you would play purely rules as written it would be possible. And it shouldn´t! One of my players just stumbled over the spell and asked. And for one of the first times I didn´t have an spontan answer. ;)
Do you let the efreet lose his wish ability if he gets struck by an energy draining attack?
@Avalonxq: How do you come to your ruling? I mean, there is no indication that the ability is hd based. look at the caster level. it´s even insufficent to cast limited wish. and I´m not even talking of wish! also how do you come to your conclussion?
Carbon´s "ruling" is especially weak. If you could not create fire creatures, don´t you think it would be in the spell entry?
The rules are very clear on the matter that you can do it.
That being said, any time you use Efreet your game is going to deviate horribly from what people can expect from DnD. The same issue applies whether they use Planar Binding or Gate or any of the other ways to get an Efreet for free Wishes.
So rather than upset your players with some poorly cobbled together excuse for a rules call that makes all kinds of assumptions that the rules don't, just tell them that as a DM you'd prefer if they didn't break the game. Problem solved.
Basically, the high-level Wizard is allowed to exist only because he has a gentlemen's agreement with the DM to not make the setting explode.
@Avalonxq: How do you come to your ruling?
Because 10 HD is the least powerful genie that can do any wish-granting. A 7 HD genie can't do it.
So making a simulacrum with the abilities of a 5 HD genie can't do it, either.
@AvalonXQ: Take an example on K. ;) Your argumentation stand on weak legs. What do you say about the efreet? Can´t he cast wishes anymore if he is a simulacrum? What about every damned other creature? Because they ALL have only half their normal HD noboby should cast at all.
@K: I just tought I´d overseen something. Now I have to decide to disallow the spell Simulacrum or just this (ab)use.
It sure seems like a clear case of GM-intercession to me. If the rules are not clear cut (and I haven't checked on them, but I'm guessing under efreeti it doesn't say exactly at what HD they can cast wish and below that HD they cannot) then it is up to the GM to make a call. Just make the call based on what works best for all involved and stick to it. There's no need to eliminate a spell that has some utility just because a player wants wishes by casting a 7th level spell.
@AvalonXQ: Take an example on K. ;) Your argumentation stand on weak legs. What do you say about the efreet? Can´t he cast wishes anymore if he is a simulacrum?
I already explained my answer: no genie under 10 HD has a wish ability; specifically the 7 HD genie doesn't. So the 5 HD genie shouldn't.
What about every damned other creature? Because they ALL have only half their normal HD noboby should cast at all.
I agree that if your purpose is to gain access to the most powerful spell-like ability of a creature, Simulacrum is a bad option -- since I'm generally not going to give a full SLA complement to a half-HD version of a monster.
It's a half-real illusion of a creature; it's not the creature itself. Strongly magical creatures with a full complement of SLA's are certainly not at half-power.
Well the GMG may help you here:
Types of Wishes:
One of the first boundaries to set is whether or not all wishes are created equal, and have similar constraints. Treating all wishes the same has the virtues of consistency and simplicity, and helps keep your game under control. Having a hierarchy of wishes gives fodder for the story in your game, letting PCs alter their local reality with their wishes, but leaving the option of seeking out higher powers to grant the wishes spoken of in legends. A suggested hierarchy is wishes from spells or magic items, followed by miracle, wishes granted by artifacts and relics, wishes granted by powerful outsiders like the efreet and djinn, and finally those wishes bestowed directly by gods and other entities beyond mortal ken.
Twisting Wishes: Folklore is filled with tales of wishes gone awry, bringing heartbreak, misery, and perhaps eventually wisdom to the hapless wisher. The wishes most likely to be perverted away from the wisher’s intent are wishes granted by hostile outsiders, wishes from cursed objects, and bad wishes as described above. Evil outsiders in particular are loath to grant wishes that don’t serve evil ends, and take every opportunity to twist them toward harm and suffering. A wish for eternal life may leave the wisher imprisoned in a decrepit yet still undying body. A wish for a powerful magic item can be granted by stealing the item from a powerful and vengeful lord. Wishes are best turned awry by adhering closely to the letter of the wish, but violating the spirit.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Dealing-with-Wishes
So you could:
play by raw, allow it, but the wish could be either dangerausly unstable (since its only CL 5) and have dire consequences.
rule that a copy just doesn´t have the power to do so.
Using Wish granting creatures might actually be just the tip of the iceberg here:
The Tarrasque has 30 hd so a level 15 caster could create his personal copy. It may have lower BAB and other things but, Regeneration, Carapace most of his powers still work. Fortunaley little T will die once it reaches 0 hp, but its still great value for your money.
It doesn´t even have to be one of the really nasty critters, just copy a ghale for unlimited clw among other things.
Back in 3.5 days you could make a copy of Elminster, it would only be half as awesome but still.
If I had to fix the spell I would add:"a copy created by the Simulacrum spell cant have more hd / levels that half your HD". That way it´s still damn powerfull, but limits some kinds of abuse.
For what it is worth: I agree with AvalonXQ's assessment. However, have you considered that, even if you have a simulacrum that can grant wishes - the wishes themselves can misfire somewhat.
Wishes, by their nature, are more likely to work properly for those that pay the due price. When a wish is made that isn't properly pure or paid for, then it has a horrible habit of going awry.
Just save yourself some time and ban the spell for players...
Otherwise, RAW, you just simalcrum yourself an advanced efreet for example, one with 20 HD. Your simalcrum will come out with 10 HD and all the standard powers...
Simalcrum as written can be abused in so many ways, it's not funny. Just consider a wizard, who at 13th level adds an absolutely loyal Ghaele Eladrin ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/azata/ghaele )bodyguard - 13 HD outsider, a 13th level cleric, with a bunch of added SLA's, and excellent side benefits. For 6500 gp, that's pretty damn good. It also doesn't take a share of XP or treasure.
At 17th level, or if the PC plans a bit and figures out how to raise his caster level, Planetars are a good investment (8500 gp) coming as they do with Regeneration, which makes them not need healing in a lab a lot...
Also, note that simalcrum doesn't give a damn about templates anymore. Together with the PF version not needing body parts... Make that Eladrin a Graveknight ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/graveknight-tem plate ), and watch as the Rejuvenation ability makes it not need lab-based healing...
Nobodies produced a non-breakable version of Simalcrum yet; even just Simalcrum'ing yourself (PC) gets pretty nasty. It giving you absolutely loyal wizard minions...
I repeat, my advice, is to just ban the damn thing.
I think it is better to explain why, you as a DM dont think certain things should be done even if they are possible. Reversing the situation might help the player. If he is looking for loopholes and you close you he will just find another one.
There is an across the board precedence that you cannot use a lower level spell to duplicate the effects of a higher level spell. simulacrum is only 7th. its effects are powerful enough as it is without cheesing out something that it shouldn't do. there are precedents involving other player "created" creatures not having access to all their abilities. such as summoning other things or duplicating spells with expensive material components such as wish.
Basically, the high-level Wizard is allowed to exist only because he has a gentlemen's agreement with the DM to not make the setting explode.
There are certain spells/combinations/etc that solidly broken. I can, as a wizard player, attempt to use the spell to destroy the game, ruining everyone's fun, or I can be reasonable and make fair use of the spell.
James was kind enough to answer many of our simulacrum questions here. I thought you all should know since some of you have asked such questions before.