Telekinetic Projectile


Rules Discussion

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Two questions:

- Can I just bring a bunch of small objects (let's say a bag of marbles), drop them as a Free Action on the first round, and just hurl those for the rest of the encounter?
- The spell specifically says Ranged Attack. So this is a Dex Mod attack, with no to-hit scaling? (For example, higher level Bombs will actually have inherent to-hit scaling to make sure they scale to magic item progression it seems.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

1) I don't see why not. One of my players had the exact same idea and I'm going to allow it, since I haven't seen anything indicating otherwise

2) It is a Dex mod attack. I hadn't actually considered your point about proficiency scaling and would like to know the developers answer if you get one. I will be ruling it as being with Trained proficiency + Dex, unless I hear otherwise in an FAQ or find something explicit in the book, since even Wizards are trained in at least one ranged weapon (heavy crossbow) and Sorcerers and Bards are trained in all simple weapons


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

P.s. in terms of the 'bag of marbles' I told my player to buy sling bullets for this purpose. He also plans to use Unseen Servant to go and collect any reusable ones for him after combat is over.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Interestingly it called out ranged attack instead of spell attack, like most 'to hit' spells. My personal take would be to apply your spell casting proficiency to the Dex (instead of the casting stat as a spell attack would) and call it appropriate, myself.


You could always carry a bag of darts or daggers and drop them: as ranged attacks, you should be able to use your class weapon proficiencies to attack with them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I notice the text for Produce Flame says to make a spell attack, then says "This is normally a ranged attack," so a ranged attack can be a spell attack.


The thing is, TKP has better damage than any other cantrip I've seen, and it in the playtest it was the only cantrip that targeted AC rather than TAC because of its high damage. So it might intentionally use your lower stat (DEX) on your spellcasting proficiency. It's not even less versatile than other cantrips really; it may only do physical, but being able to deal all 3 types is sweet.

As for carrying items around, sure why not. I've never seen it as necessary because usually the environment provides adequate options: a rock, a fallen branch, a piece of femur from the monster's last victim, an arrow the archer already fired, etc.


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You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:

The thing is, TKP has better damage than any other cantrip I've seen, and it in the playtest it was the only cantrip that targeted AC rather than TAC because of its high damage. So it might intentionally use your lower stat (DEX) on your spellcasting proficiency. It's not even less versatile than other cantrips really; it may only do physical, but being able to deal all 3 types is sweet.

I figured a larger damage die was its schtick, in lieu of splash, extra range, optional melee attack, or two targets.


Xenocrat wrote:
You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.

Using nails for your telekinetic projectile here works well. A smith asked to make 50 adamantium nails might give you weird looks, but adventurer types are always making weird requests.


Vallarthis wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

The thing is, TKP has better damage than any other cantrip I've seen, and it in the playtest it was the only cantrip that targeted AC rather than TAC because of its high damage. So it might intentionally use your lower stat (DEX) on your spellcasting proficiency. It's not even less versatile than other cantrips really; it may only do physical, but being able to deal all 3 types is sweet.

I figured a larger damage die was its schtick, in lieu of splash, extra range, optional melee attack, or two targets.

Hmm, you're not wrong. Most cantrips seem to have the same range, so no edge there, but they also pack an extra effect on a crit. The one exception is divine lance, and it is a weird case what with the pros/cons of alignment damage.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.
Using nails for your telekinetic projectile here works well. A smith asked to make 50 adamantium nails might give you weird looks, but adventurer types are always making weird requests.

"No specific traits or magic properties of the hurled item affect the attack or the damage."

Interestingly, different materials aren't printed as "traits" per se on the items, so that may be a little up to interpretation.

I think the intent, though, is to let you pick between B/P/S based on the object used and that's it. Loose flotsam like marbles are exactly the kind of thing that's expected. Caltrops might be a good option for piercing, although they're a little pricy for just guaranteeing damage type flavor; small tacks/nails probably make more sense. Maybe the glass from a broken bottle or something for slashing.

As for the ranged attack part; it does seem anomalous that it doesn't specifically mention spell attack like other spells, but the Spell Attacks section on p.305 makes it seem like it would call out specifically if it needed to make another type of attack, such as a weapon Strike. Ki Strike is an example of a spell that does that. Hand of the Apprentice is an example of using a spell to throw a weapon while still using a spell attack role.

The damage isn't out of line for cantrips. It's up a die size over most of them, but doesn't offer the add-on effects like extended range, chances for persistent damage, or hitting two foes at once.


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I’m curious what would happen if you used TKP on an unattended Alchemist Bomb.


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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
I’m curious what would happen if you used TKP on an unattended Alchemist Bomb.

Assuming you hit, it would do 1d6 damage per spell level, probably bludgeoning.

Silver Crusade

Do need to know this as when my books arrive the first character I'll make will be a Bard, and this the only ranged attack Occult cantrip.

Can we throw knives? Acid flasks,alchemist fire? Put it this way, I want to hit someome with a handful of caltrops for the Telekenetic Projectile damage, then the caltrops fall and makes that enemy's space difficult terrain. Is this ok? A bit good for a cantrip, but ok?


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0o0o0 O 0o0o0 wrote:

Do need to know this as when my books arrive the first character I'll make will be a Bard, and this the only ranged attack Occult cantrip.

Can we throw knives? Acid flasks,alchemist fire? Put it this way, I want to hit someome with a handful of caltrops for the Telekenetic Projectile damage, then the caltrops fall and makes that enemy's space difficult terrain. Is this ok? A bit good for a cantrip, but ok?

the good news is that you CAN throw knifes, they gain NONE of the knife traits/abilities/enhancements apart from being "piercing" dmage though.

the bad news are that you'd only throw ONE caltrop. Maybe after 50 or so TKP on the same space there would be enough to cover a single square as difficult terrain.

as for alchemical items, we're already in the limbo with those things being literally unbreakable if you fall 100+ feet, drop them on solid stone when you make them, and etc, so why would they break if you simply "toss" them with TKP?

people here already have jusftified that those alchemical bombs require specific things to happen for them to even blow up (mixing two substances the last moment, breaking a seal, and etc) since that's the only way they explode when used in a Strike, but nothing happens to them if 99 other things cause them to be thrown/pressed/smashed/etc


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
0o0o0 O 0o0o0 wrote:
Do need to know this as when my books arrive the first character I'll make will be a Bard, and this the only ranged attack Occult cantrip.

Good news! Daze now does mental damage, with Stunned as the critical effect. Not a ton of damage, but it's an option.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
shroudb wrote:


people here already have jusftified that those alchemical bombs require specific things to happen for them to even blow up (mixing two substances the last moment, breaking a seal, and etc) since that's the only way they explode when used in a Strike, but nothing happens to them if 99 other things cause them to be thrown/pressed/smashed/etc

Its not that weird. Its the same as every other item in the game, same as it was in PF1 and 3.5

Unless something specifically targets an item, items don't get damaged. See Armour taking thousands of blows, weapons, all your stuff not getting destroyed by acid attacks etc.


I'll probably be flavoring TKP to use the item as a focus for telekinetic force and extends the force of impact ahead of the item, so the item has a slow and safe stop while the target of the attack gets hit full force. Different shapes objects have different shaped cushions so they do different damage, but the cushion is not cold iron or silver or adamantine, and it keeps glass from breaking it arrows from snaping.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah the "ranged attack" is a point of confusion among my group as well. What proficiency would that be if it's not just a spell attack roll?


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RicoTheBold wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.
Using nails for your telekinetic projectile here works well. A smith asked to make 50 adamantium nails might give you weird looks, but adventurer types are always making weird requests.

"No specific traits or magic properties of the hurled item affect the attack or the damage."

Interestingly, different materials aren't printed as "traits" per se on the items, so that may be a little up to interpretation.

I think the intent, though, is to let you pick between B/P/S based on the object used and that's it. Loose flotsam like marbles are exactly the kind of thing that's expected. Caltrops might be a good option for piercing, although they're a little pricy for just guaranteeing damage type flavor; small tacks/nails probably make more sense. Maybe the glass from a broken bottle or something for slashing.

I'm thinking it would be really odd to disallow the effects of different materials. For example, if there were a handful of silver pieces laying around and you used one for TKP against a werewolf, would the weakness to silver not apply? I think the blurb about specific traits & properties is to disallow things like Sweep or Finesse or whatever if one were to TKP an actual weapon. In that case, those traits would not come into effect and the weapon would do 1d6 plus your spellcasting ability modifier, even if you hurled a +1 Striking Great Pick with TKP and you had some kind of feat that gave you access to the critical specialization effect for a pick. But if it was a silver +1 Striking Great Pick, then would it not do 1d6 + spellcasting ability modifier + 5 vs the werewolf?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
zean wrote:

Two questions:

- Can I just bring a bunch of small objects (let's say a bag of marbles), drop them as a Free Action on the first round, and just hurl those for the rest of the encounter?
- The spell specifically says Ranged Attack. So this is a Dex Mod attack, with no to-hit scaling? (For example, higher level Bombs will actually have inherent to-hit scaling to make sure they scale to magic item progression it seems.)

My TORG character was a gamer turned wizard who used a virtually identical spell to hurl big purple d20s at the enemy.

So I approve.


Xenocrat wrote:
You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.

This would be my recommendation as well. Have a pouch or two with stuff. You can have a pouch of just random rocks you pick up during downtime for basic ammo if a room is really bare but it is also nice to have some cold iron nails/silver pins and what not. The objects don't need to be big and they can be pretty much junk you pick up super cheap.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I believe the ranged attack to be an error. It was likely meant to be a spell attack like other spells.

The easiest explanation is often the correct one. Time will tell.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

I believe the ranged attack to be an error. It was likely meant to be a spell attack like other spells.

The easiest explanation is often the correct one. Time will tell.

Agreed. No other spell uses that language. The word "spell" before "attack" getting cut (or forgotten) is the simplest explanation.

Silver Crusade

I also tend to think that it is supposed to be a spell attack roll.


I think it is suppose to be a spell attack based spell that is treated like a ranged attack for things like a monk defecting or catching it like they would an arrow.


Agreed with above four posters.

Where else do we see an attack roll that uses a physical ability score to hit, and a spellcasting ability score for damage?

Exo-Guardians

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+1 to the above five posts. If it weren't meant to be a spell attack like every other ranged attack spell, it would tell you to roll a Strike. See pg 305:

Quote:

SPELL ATTACKS

Some spells require you to succeed at a spell attack roll
to affect the target. This is usually because they require
you to precisely aim a ray or otherwise make an accurate
attack. A spell attack roll is compared to the target’s AC.
Spell attack rolls benefit from any bonuses or penalties to
attack rolls, including your multiple attack penalty, but not
any special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon
or unarmed attacks. Spell attacks don’t deal any damage
beyond what’s listed in the spell description.

In rare cases, a spell might have you make some other
type of attack, such as a weapon Strike. Such attacks use
the normal rules and attack bonus for that type of attack.


Honestly I think the wording makes it more likely that it's a spell attack roll instead of one using dexterity. Note that:
1) There are ranged spell attacks.
2) The wording does *not* say to make a ranged *strike* which is the wording used most commonly for weapon/unarmed attacks.
3) You're making the ranged attack as part of a spell. While there's no rules indicating that ranged attacks made as part of a spell are spell attacks, it seems a fairly likely interpretation. Is there another example of this wording that *is* known to be a regular ranged/melee attack (using Dex/Str)?

I'd agree the wording here is ambiguous, and hopefully gets clarification. I'd lean towards saying this should be a spell attack roll given the wording, but would probably let my players choose the one they want to make otherwise.


+1 on spell attack roll interpretation

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