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Two questions:
- Can I just bring a bunch of small objects (let's say a bag of marbles), drop them as a Free Action on the first round, and just hurl those for the rest of the encounter?
- The spell specifically says Ranged Attack. So this is a Dex Mod attack, with no to-hit scaling? (For example, higher level Bombs will actually have inherent to-hit scaling to make sure they scale to magic item progression it seems.)
1) I don't see why not. One of my players had the exact same idea and I'm going to allow it, since I haven't seen anything indicating otherwise
2) It is a Dex mod attack. I hadn't actually considered your point about proficiency scaling and would like to know the developers answer if you get one. I will be ruling it as being with Trained proficiency + Dex, unless I hear otherwise in an FAQ or find something explicit in the book, since even Wizards are trained in at least one ranged weapon (heavy crossbow) and Sorcerers and Bards are trained in all simple weapons
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P.s. in terms of the 'bag of marbles' I told my player to buy sling bullets for this purpose. He also plans to use Unseen Servant to go and collect any reusable ones for him after combat is over.
You could always carry a bag of darts or daggers and drop them: as ranged attacks, you should be able to use your class weapon proficiencies to attack with them.
I notice the text for Produce Flame says to make a spell attack, then says "This is normally a ranged attack," so a ranged attack can be a spell attack.
The thing is, TKP has better damage than any other cantrip I've seen, and it in the playtest it was the only cantrip that targeted AC rather than TAC because of its high damage. So it might intentionally use your lower stat (DEX) on your spellcasting proficiency. It's not even less versatile than other cantrips really; it may only do physical, but being able to deal all 3 types is sweet.
As for carrying items around, sure why not. I've never seen it as necessary because usually the environment provides adequate options: a rock, a fallen branch, a piece of femur from the monster's last victim, an arrow the archer already fired, etc.
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You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.
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The thing is, TKP has better damage than any other cantrip I've seen, and it in the playtest it was the only cantrip that targeted AC rather than TAC because of its high damage. So it might intentionally use your lower stat (DEX) on your spellcasting proficiency. It's not even less versatile than other cantrips really; it may only do physical, but being able to deal all 3 types is sweet.
I figured a larger damage die was its schtick, in lieu of splash, extra range, optional melee attack, or two targets.
You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.
Using nails for your telekinetic projectile here works well. A smith asked to make 50 adamantium nails might give you weird looks, but adventurer types are always making weird requests.
I figured a larger damage die was its schtick, in lieu of splash, extra range, optional melee attack, or two targets.The thing is, TKP has better damage than any other cantrip I've seen, and it in the playtest it was the only cantrip that targeted AC rather than TAC because of its high damage. So it might intentionally use your lower stat (DEX) on your spellcasting proficiency. It's not even less versatile than other cantrips really; it may only do physical, but being able to deal all 3 types is sweet.
Hmm, you're not wrong. Most cantrips seem to have the same range, so no edge there, but they also pack an extra effect on a crit. The one exception is divine lance, and it is a weird case what with the pros/cons of alignment damage.
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You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.Using nails for your telekinetic projectile here works well. A smith asked to make 50 adamantium nails might give you weird looks, but adventurer types are always making weird requests.
"No specific traits or magic properties of the hurled item affect the attack or the damage."
Interestingly, different materials aren't printed as "traits" per se on the items, so that may be a little up to interpretation.
I think the intent, though, is to let you pick between B/P/S based on the object used and that's it. Loose flotsam like marbles are exactly the kind of thing that's expected. Caltrops might be a good option for piercing, although they're a little pricy for just guaranteeing damage type flavor; small tacks/nails probably make more sense. Maybe the glass from a broken bottle or something for slashing.
As for the ranged attack part; it does seem anomalous that it doesn't specifically mention spell attack like other spells, but the Spell Attacks section on p.305 makes it seem like it would call out specifically if it needed to make another type of attack, such as a weapon Strike. Ki Strike is an example of a spell that does that. Hand of the Apprentice is an example of using a spell to throw a weapon while still using a spell attack role.
The damage isn't out of line for cantrips. It's up a die size over most of them, but doesn't offer the add-on effects like extended range, chances for persistent damage, or hitting two foes at once.
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I’m curious what would happen if you used TKP on an unattended Alchemist Bomb.
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I’m curious what would happen if you used TKP on an unattended Alchemist Bomb.
Assuming you hit, it would do 1d6 damage per spell level, probably bludgeoning.
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Do need to know this as when my books arrive the first character I'll make will be a Bard, and this the only ranged attack Occult cantrip.
Can we throw knives? Acid flasks,alchemist fire? Put it this way, I want to hit someome with a handful of caltrops for the Telekenetic Projectile damage, then the caltrops fall and makes that enemy's space difficult terrain. Is this ok? A bit good for a cantrip, but ok?
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Do need to know this as when my books arrive the first character I'll make will be a Bard, and this the only ranged attack Occult cantrip.
Good news! Daze now does mental damage, with Stunned as the critical effect. Not a ton of damage, but it's an option.
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I'll probably be flavoring TKP to use the item as a focus for telekinetic force and extends the force of impact ahead of the item, so the item has a slow and safe stop while the target of the attack gets hit full force. Different shapes objects have different shaped cushions so they do different damage, but the cushion is not cold iron or silver or adamantine, and it keeps glass from breaking it arrows from snaping.
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Yeah the "ranged attack" is a point of confusion among my group as well. What proficiency would that be if it's not just a spell attack roll?
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Two questions:
- Can I just bring a bunch of small objects (let's say a bag of marbles), drop them as a Free Action on the first round, and just hurl those for the rest of the encounter?
- The spell specifically says Ranged Attack. So this is a Dex Mod attack, with no to-hit scaling? (For example, higher level Bombs will actually have inherent to-hit scaling to make sure they scale to magic item progression it seems.)
My TORG character was a gamer turned wizard who used a virtually identical spell to hurl big purple d20s at the enemy.
So I approve.
You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.
This would be my recommendation as well. Have a pouch or two with stuff. You can have a pouch of just random rocks you pick up during downtime for basic ammo if a room is really bare but it is also nice to have some cold iron nails/silver pins and what not. The objects don't need to be big and they can be pretty much junk you pick up super cheap.
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I believe the ranged attack to be an error. It was likely meant to be a spell attack like other spells.
The easiest explanation is often the correct one. Time will tell.
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I believe the ranged attack to be an error. It was likely meant to be a spell attack like other spells.
The easiest explanation is often the correct one. Time will tell.
Agreed. No other spell uses that language. The word "spell" before "attack" getting cut (or forgotten) is the simplest explanation.
I think it is suppose to be a spell attack based spell that is treated like a ranged attack for things like a monk defecting or catching it like they would an arrow.
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+1 to the above five posts. If it weren't meant to be a spell attack like every other ranged attack spell, it would tell you to roll a Strike. See pg 305:
SPELL ATTACKS
Some spells require you to succeed at a spell attack roll
to affect the target. This is usually because they require
you to precisely aim a ray or otherwise make an accurate
attack. A spell attack roll is compared to the target’s AC.
Spell attack rolls benefit from any bonuses or penalties to
attack rolls, including your multiple attack penalty, but not
any special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon
or unarmed attacks. Spell attacks don’t deal any damage
beyond what’s listed in the spell description.In rare cases, a spell might have you make some other
type of attack, such as a weapon Strike. Such attacks use
the normal rules and attack bonus for that type of attack.
Totally unclear so individual GMs will differ.
For Globe of Invulnerability it is clear there would be a counteract check
For immunity to magic or the AnitMagic spell it is open. Either
a) TKP is not magical after the object is thrown so it works fine providing he caster is not inside the area of AntiMagic, or,
b) TKP is magical all the way and it fails utterly
But whatever you do you should be consistent if you go with interpretation a) then TKP shouldn't bypass resistance to non magical damage. That's my preference anyway but the rules are not clear.
Where I do disagree with you is that you say this is a niche situation. Its not. It is a classic magic resistance problem and should have been clearly articulated in the spell description.
Personally I think a silver bullet should work on Werewolves with this spell, but it doesn't
Rules as written, golems antimagic would have to say Damaged by physical XdYs to be damaged by telekinetic projectile or Weapon storm etc. If you need a reason, the anti magic field bends the weapon away or it slows till it bounces harmlessly off etc.
There are several different ways to interpret the metaphysics, yet I think several of them lead to inconsistencies given the parameters of the spell.
If the object's under the weight limit, only shape matters. Whether a pine needle or a pencil, a feather or a lead weight, the object is of minimal importance. Glass won't shatter, bombs won't explode, a pebble of sand mechanically mirrors a stone, etc.
So I think of TKP as using the object as a seed for a ball of "telekinetic substance" (since Force means something else in PF!) The spell takes the object, makes a shell of similar shape around the object, then flings the object, inflicting damage based on that shape, but with zero reference to what's inside.
Odd as that is, it fits the parameters as well as the metaphysics of one of the PF1 Kineticist's abilities which did exactly the same thing.
In both cases, it seems just a conceit to grant a physical attack to casters, one with the flavor of telekinesis while remaining clear of the umpteen shenanigans possible if the object's traits mattered more.
In that vein, I'd say TKP doesn't work vs. creatures immune to magic, since it's not the object itself striking (otherwise silver (et al) would matter), it's the spell striking by riding on the object. That doesn't mean other TK effects wouldn't work, ones that never contact/interact with the creature directly.
Golems are immune to telekinetic projectile because the spell targets the creature being attacked, not the object being flung.
I do think technically there is an answer here, but this is not the direct reason.
You can be targeted by effects and spells that you are immune to. Look at the rules on immunity.
The reason the effect is not applied for say a Golem is that the even though there is no trait on the spell called Magical, it does have the trait Evocation and is of the Arcane tradition. I think it is reasonable to deduce from the magical trait that each tradition of magic and maybe the school of magic includes the trait of Magical.
So I think TKP is strictly speaking a magic attack.
It is just not as crystal clear as it should be. I still think plenty of GMs will go for a more natural explanation - that you are throwing a rock with the spell and that the magic is the throw and not the rock. That is certainly how this sort of effect is often portrayed in stories. I'll certainly be doing that as a homebrew.