Paizo Leadership Team Update

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

The funniest thing about ignorantly calling this situation "he said, she said" isn't even how rankly outnumbered the "he said" is, it's that "he" hasn't even contradicted a single allegation. Hell, he's confirmed a few. It's all true, we know it's true, stop wasting our time with this hunger for a nonexistent Reasonable Middle Ground like some escaped South Park character. I can't tell you how tiresome it got two months ago.

Well there was the one time he said he couldn't be trans or homophobic because he has gay friends....

That was a different guy. Who I don't actually think even got banned, just suspended. Unless you're talking about Jeff?

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

The funniest thing about ignorantly calling this situation "he said, she said" isn't even how rankly outnumbered the "he said" is, it's that "he" hasn't even contradicted a single allegation. Hell, he's confirmed a few. It's all true, we know it's true, stop wasting our time with this hunger for a nonexistent Reasonable Middle Ground like some escaped South Park character. I can't tell you how tiresome it got two months ago.

Well there was the one time he said he couldn't be trans or homophobic because he has gay friends....

Yeah that's not good optics

Hmm that person admitted according to their Twitter, pushing back on everything from management and was let go. It's pretty cut and dry, happens everyday. either.

Just for those watching at home, this is an absurd bad-faith misconstruing of the situation and isn't remotely true. Sara advocated for the rights of her team and the community--you know, her job as the head of a team dedicated to community relations--and was fired and replaced without any cause given.

Also, Pauly meant to favorite his post on his sock puppet but did it on his main instead, then quickly un-favorited. It was really funny.

I wonder who the consultant with expertise in matters of DEIB is. With all the name-dropping, it feels weird to me that their name was not mentioned.

That's probably normal, though I'm no expert. Consultants don't tend to be placed in the limelight, do they?

I'll admit, I read that as "we asked our mate and they suggested..." but it's far from the meat of of the issue to my mind.

I wonder who the consultant with expertise in matters of DEIB is. With all the name-dropping, it feels weird to me that their name was not mentioned.

They've already gotten into enough trouble doxxing customers, I don't think they have any interest in doing this to a legal professional they've hired.

We've already seen how nasty twitter warriors can be in all of this and I am confident that if Paizo started releasing the names of individuals who will be doing this work at the firm with X or Y specialty that they'd instantly have 5-20 activist twitter stans spending hours if not days aggressively researching anything and everything that named individual has ever done in order to try to pick at each and every seam, thread, and post they've very personally shared publicly or in some cases privately. That is not "accountability" at all, it's encouraging harassment and pointless dirt-digging.

Sock puppet? And nailed it metric

What trouble did they get into for doxxing?

What trouble did they get into for doxxing?

Quite.

The consultant and legal firm aspects remain, to my mind, a bit of a red herring. Better to retain focus on the observable data than project our fears into that particular void.

I'd love to see literally a single "Twitter warrior", since people keep bringing them up. What are the heinous excesses we're being repeatedly scolded for? Where are the torches and pitchforks?

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

What trouble did they get into for doxxing?

Quite.

The consultant and legal firm aspects remain, to my mind, a bit of a red herring. Better to retain focus on the observable data than project our fears into that particular void.

Oh, I agree. A troll made a comment and I inquired.

Although there may be the same few people talking, as remarked above, there are a large number of us that are silently watching and waiting as well. We have not forgotten about this. It is still "a thing" and will continue to be so until something is done about it.

It's worth stressing: Unions are at their strongest when the community is paying attention. Anyone who thinks that the mere formation of a union is a sign that everything is going to be solved on its own without community involvement is fundamentally misunderstanding how unions work.

The union has been formed, but hasn’t gone through negotiations yet. Paizo still lacks an HR person. Jeff took two months to give a mediocre apology that barely acknowledged significant, discriminatory wrongdoing, and the company has lawyered up. Sara Marie remains fired.

What progress are we supposed to be contented with, exactly? Why would we shut up?

I wonder who the consultant with expertise in matters of DEIB is. With all the name-dropping, it feels weird to me that their name was not mentioned.

Given the status of Paizo in the public venue, would you want to be named in collusion with them? It wouldn't surprise me if they came right out and told them not to drop their name.

Yeah, because why would a consultant in DEIB matters (who gets paid to help companies with problems in those areas) ever want to be associated with helping a company that has problems in those areas?

If I were specializing in that field and Paizo executives asked for my opinion, I would not want to be publicly associated with them until after I saw that they actually took my advice and did good with it. If this turns out to just be all smoke and mirrors and they continue to behave poorly, I wouldn't want to be connected with that.

I think it doesn't really matter who the consultant they've used is, or who the individual lawyers are to be honest. I'm much more interested in any comments we end up getting from the union on how any negotiations end up going and then any visible changes we see at the end of the process. Any professional they'd hire is ultimately working for Paizo, so the real test comes down to what Paizo have actually tasked them with. And I think our best guide on that will be any comments we get from the Union on the process and then comments from the Union and hopefully Paizo staffers past and present on whatever changes actually happen.

Any HR person would be walking into a hot mess.

Any HR person would be walking into a hot mess.

Yeah, but if paid well enough it is just a matter of checking boxes and moving down the list of things to address.

I've worked for companies with rotating HR managers/directors just because of this reason. So long as management is willing to put in the work the person who is heading up HR is usually willing too. When it becomes apparent that management isn't actually wanting to resolve the issues one of 2 things happen.

HR either becomes vacant again, or it becomes the last line of defense for leadership against the employees.

That last one is a bit harder when the employees are unionized though.

Hi everyone! Just popped in to remove some comments that were a bit snarky in nature. We can be nice to each other even when we don't agree. We can also just not say anything if it might start a squabble.

The Raven Black wrote:

I wonder who the consultant with expertise in matters of DEIB is. With all the name-dropping, it feels weird to me that their name was not mentioned.

Given the status of Paizo in the public venue, would you want to be named in collusion with them? It wouldn't surprise me if they came right out and told them not to drop their name.

There are 2 companies mentioned above. Your argument would be just as strong for them not being named.

I'd love to see literally a single "Twitter warrior", since people keep bringing them up. What are the heinous excesses we're being repeatedly scolded for? Where are the torches and pitchforks?

It seems Twitter warrior is being used as a synonym for Social Justice Warrior used as a derogatory. Paizo frowns on using the latter. Hence the use of the former I guess.

Which feels just as insulting but adds a nice touch of being underhanded to circumvent Paizo's rules.

It amuses me that people who say they care so much about Paizo flaunt Paizo's own rules.

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I'd love to see literally a single "Twitter warrior", since people keep bringing them up. What are the heinous excesses we're being repeatedly scolded for? Where are the torches and pitchforks?

It seems Twitter warrior is being used as a synonym for Social Justice Warrior used as a derogatory. Paizo frowns on using the latter. Hence the use of the former I guess.

Which feels just as insulting but adds a nice touch of being underhanded to circumvent Paizo's rules.

It amuses me that people who say they care so much about Paizo flaunt Paizo's own rules.

Just goes back to one of Jessica Price's very valid points when it comes to having dedicated employees for inclusion. These types of insults, because that is exactly what they are, evolve daily. And if a community guidelines policy isn't both broad enough and specific enough to catch the nuances then the people who abuse those policies will find the loop holes.

I love the zero tolerance for intolerance statement. Calling anyone a 'warrior' for any cause at this stage of the internet during late game capitalism is pretty clear that it is intended as a direct insult to a specific group. Now which group is it? Well, that can be up for interpretation but when it is so close to the 'Social Justice Warrior' and 'Keyboard Warrior' trope which is typically aimed against cancel culture I don't have to use my imagination to know that they are insults directed towards people who would advocate for progress and inclusion.

Agreed with ya 100%

I just don't like it when people make up phantom "Twitter extremists" to justify their weird takes. If you think some of us go too far in criticizing Paizo for transphobia, say exactly how. Don't waste our time inventing vague bugbears.

The Raven Black wrote:

I wonder who the consultant with expertise in matters of DEIB is. With all the name-dropping, it feels weird to me that their name was not mentioned.

They've already gotten into enough trouble doxxing customers, I don't think they have any interest in doing this to a legal professional they've hired.

We've already seen how nasty twitter warriors can be in all of this and I am confident that if Paizo started releasing the names of individuals who will be doing this work at the firm with X or Y specialty that they'd instantly have 5-20 activist twitter stans spending hours if not days aggressively researching anything and everything that named individual has ever done in order to try to pick at each and every seam, thread, and post they've very personally shared publicly or in some cases privately. That is not "accountability" at all, it's encouraging harassment and pointless dirt-digging.

we have seen how dishonest, untrustworthy and evasive Paizo management are. Only deeds will help now.

inventing vague bugbears.

Now you have me imagining bugbears with a permanent blur effect.

But 100% agree with your point.

I just don't like it when people make up phantom "Twitter extremists" to justify their weird takes. If you think some of us go too far in criticizing Paizo for transphobia, say exactly how. Don't waste our time inventing vague bugbears.

I spent a big chunk of last night writing up bugbear statblocks to fill out the bugbear roster - you just made me really tempted to write up a "vague bugbear" to add to them.

I would think the 'vague bugbear' would be something more akin to Phantasmal Killer but far less lethal

"... hey. So, like, spiders or something, they're scary, right? I guess. Meh. What's the point."

(a kender's Phantasmal Killer)

I thought vague bugbears were the ones our next-generation sequencing vendor(*) hired to write the instructions for installing and troubleshooting their software . . . although those are more verbose than what you're probably thinking of . . . .

(*)I do work in Modern Necromancy life science research.

ShadowcatX wrote:

I know I'm weeks late but I wanted to comment that while I never really liked Sean he never seemed like thw type who would lie about Paizo after he left them.

As to the arguments about trusting the CIS guy over the trans woman, while I never really doubted her I do give SKR's words more weight, not because he's a guy or CIS but because I interacted with him here on these forums (even if not always favorably).

…why are you writing cis in all caps?

Because I believed it to stand for something? Christ, why are you actively looking for something to be offended by?

She didn't say she was offended? She just asked why you were doing it.

To be fair, all caps has been used to 'shout' in the past. As a result, someone raised with that standard might have reasonable concern about a raised voice.

keftiu wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

I know I'm weeks late but I wanted to comment that while I never really liked Sean he never seemed like thw type who would lie about Paizo after he left them.

As to the arguments about trusting the CIS guy over the trans woman, while I never really doubted her I do give SKR's words more weight, not because he's a guy or CIS but because I interacted with him here on these forums (even if not always favorably).

…why are you writing cis in all caps?

Because I believed it to stand for something? Christ, why are you actively looking for something to be offended by?

In that case time for a small element of education.

The term "cis" is actually a chemistry term meaning "on the same side", in contrast to the term "trans" meaning "on the other side". Since the term transgender is used to reference someone who has "changed sides" (ie transitioned from their assigned-at-birth gender), by common usage someone who is cisgender retains their assigned-at-birth gender. In cases where it's clear that gender is being discussed, it is reasonable to shorten both terms to the prefix only.

Therefore the term cis is not an acronym or initialism, but a complete term in its own right and does not require capitalisation.

This educational moment brought to you by someone who was once offended by the term cis who then got educated and is now a strong advocate for it.

keftiu wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

I know I'm weeks late but I wanted to comment that while I never really liked Sean he never seemed like thw type who would lie about Paizo after he left them.

As to the arguments about trusting the CIS guy over the trans woman, while I never really doubted her I do give SKR's words more weight, not because he's a guy or CIS but because I interacted with him here on these forums (even if not always favorably).

…why are you writing cis in all caps?

Because I believed it to stand for something? Christ, why are you actively looking for something to be offended by?

A couple people got really excited to Favorite a post accusing a trans woman of being easily offended for asking a completely harmless question.

keftiu wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

I know I'm weeks late but I wanted to comment that while I never really liked Sean he never seemed like thw type who would lie about Paizo after he left them.

As to the arguments about trusting the CIS guy over the trans woman, while I never really doubted her I do give SKR's words more weight, not because he's a guy or CIS but because I interacted with him here on these forums (even if not always favorably).

…why are you writing cis in all caps?

Because I believed it to stand for something? Christ, why are you actively looking for something to be offended by?

Where did I say I was offended?

Acting like I’m oversensitive in a post where you explode over a completely imaginary issue is pretty rich.

ShadowcatX wrote:

keftiu wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

I know I'm weeks late but I wanted to comment that while I never really liked Sean he never seemed like thw type who would lie about Paizo after he left them.

As to the arguments about trusting the CIS guy over the trans woman, while I never really doubted her I do give SKR's words more weight, not because he's a guy or CIS but because I interacted with him here on these forums (even if not always favorably).

…why are you writing cis in all caps?

Because I believed it to stand for something? Christ, why are you actively looking for something to be offended by?

In that case time for a small element of education.

The term "cis" is actually a chemistry term meaning "on the same side", in contrast to the term "trans" meaning "on the other side". Since the term transgender is used to reference someone who has "changed sides" (ie transitioned from their assigned-at-birth gender), by common usage someone who is cisgender retains their assigned-at-birth gender. In cases where it's clear that gender is being discussed, it is reasonable to shorten both terms to the prefix only.

Therefore the term cis is not an acronym or initialism, but a complete term in its own right and does not require capitalisation.

This educational moment brought to you by someone who was once offended by the term cis who then got educated and is now a strong advocate for it.

Close - cis- is a Latin prefix, as is trans-, and that’s where chemistry got them from. The Romans, for instance, divided Gaul into “Cisalpine” (on their side of the Alps) and “Transalpine” (on the other side of the Alps), which is the fun history example I prefer to reach for.

Owen KC Stephens published an open letter to Erik Mona on behalf of an anonymous Paizo freelancer on the topic of slavery-as-presented-in-Pathfinder. This is something he does for people and has a note at the top of the post that explains the same.

Seems related to the topic of leadership at Paizo.

Owen KC Stephens published an open letter to Erik Mona on behalf of an anonymous Paizo freelancer on the topic of slavery-as-presented-in-Pathfinder. This is something he does for people and has a note at the top of the post that explains the same.

Seems related to the topic of leadership at Paizo.

This probably deserves its own topic.

Chemlak wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

keftiu wrote:

ShadowcatX wrote:

I know I'm weeks late but I wanted to comment that while I never really liked Sean he never seemed like thw type who would lie about Paizo after he left them.

As to the arguments about trusting the CIS guy over the trans woman, while I never really doubted her I do give SKR's words more weight, not because he's a guy or CIS but because I interacted with him here on these forums (even if not always favorably).

…why are you writing cis in all caps?

Because I believed it to stand for something? Christ, why are you actively looking for something to be offended by?

In that case time for a small element of education.

The term "cis" is actually a chemistry term meaning "on the same side", in contrast to the term "trans" meaning "on the other side". Since the term transgender is used to reference someone who has "changed sides" (ie transitioned from their assigned-at-birth gender), by common usage someone who is cisgender retains their assigned-at-birth gender. In cases where it's clear that gender is being discussed, it is reasonable to shorten both terms to the prefix only.

Therefore the term cis is not an acronym or initialism, but a complete term in its own right and does not require capitalisation.

This educational moment brought to you by someone who was once offended by the term cis who then got educated and is now a strong advocate for it.

Close - cis- is a Latin prefix, as is trans-, and that’s where chemistry got them from. The Romans, for instance, divided Gaul into “Cisalpine” (on their side of the Alps) and “Transalpine” (on the other side of the Alps), which is the fun history example I prefer to reach for.

Thank you for the update and correction, it’s much appreciated.

Saedar wrote:

Owen KC Stephens published an open letter to Erik Mona on behalf of an anonymous Paizo freelancer on the topic of slavery-as-presented-in-Pathfinder. This is something he does for people and has a note at the top of the post that explains the same.

Seems related to the topic of leadership at Paizo.

This probably deserves its own topic.

Eh I think it belongs here, as it is another example of Mona ignoring feedback that things are harmful and moving them into print anyway.

It certainly adds to a growing body of evidence that management at Paizo is tone-deaf when it comes to their products and the manner in which their actions are seen by the consumer base.

Mona's response is in the comments of that article, by the way.

I dunno, I think this is a more nuanced issue than the other stuff we've been talking about. The conflict between "escapist fantasy" (trans people are fine, nobody even cares) and "empowerment fantasy" (trans people get to punch bigots in the face) is really messy and complicated. Both styles are valid, and I sometimes really regret that we don't get to have both reflected in Pathfinder.

I agree with the blog post, to be clear. It's valid criticism. I just don't think it's a great example of "management bad" because it's an extremely easy misstep to make for a white person.

good evidence that Paizo needs more nonwhite perspectives though

Mona's response is in the comments of that article, by the way.

I dunno, I think this is a more nuanced issue than the other stuff we've been talking about. The conflict between "escapist fantasy" (trans people are fine, nobody even cares) and "empowerment fantasy" (trans people get to punch bigots in the face) is really messy and complicated. Both styles are valid, and I sometimes really regret that we don't get to have both reflected in Pathfinder.

I agree with the blog post, to be clear. It's valid criticism. I just don't think it's a great example of "management bad" because it's an extremely easy misstep to make for a white person.

good evidence that Paizo needs more nonwhite perspectives though

I think part of the problem is that, despite Mona's defense of the initial intent, it wasn't really portrayed as the kind of empowerment fantasy you describe, but as just part of the background you had to deal with even in places that were presented as otherwise basically decent. Homebases, rather than evil empires to fight. Like Absalom.

It's one thing to have slavelords to fight against, another to just be living next door to the auction block.

This could be my white perspective, but I don't think there would have been much reaction if slavery had always been confined to villains, even if they couldn't always be overthrown in a quick adventure.

The potential of empowerment fantasy gets lost if you're also going for gritty realism, because you can't just punch the bigots and win. (Not that PF is gritty realism, but parts of the setting aim that way.)