The Mwangi Expanse

There's other countries other than Cheliax?

"Setting aside that no colonizer has ever voluntarily agreed to such a thing"

Again fantasy game, and also, I'm not coming at this from a viewpoint of some benevolence on part of the colonizers, but them owing.

There's other countries other than Cheliax?

Where would you suggest would take in a bunch of refugees? Certainly not any of Vidrian's neighbors, who evaded the colonial yoke entirely.

Probably the Shackles, if anywhere. But we had an article in part about them a couple weeks ago, and no mention was made of such a migration.

...why does someone's home game have to reflect in canon?

Again fantasy game, and also, I'm not coming at this from a viewpoint of some benevolence on part of the colonizers, but them owing.

If you've accepted using violence to force compliance with a program, might as well go all the way with the program, and the violence.

And I'd like to point out that quite lot of Pridon's Hearth people are either from Sargava, Mwangi or Garundi in general and in context of module locals of the area are lizardfolk and song'o halflings <_<(with gripplis and boggards not far away apparently)

Also, I'd like to point out that relocating the people is pretty much same as making them homeless and worse. Like relocating large amount of people in real life has never really been a good thing

For Vidrian, the situation you have with the local Chelaxians is that they regard that nation as home even if they have lost their power, and those who are not the targets of the righteous wrath of the natives will most likely want to become part of the new society if at all possible. I would be very disappointed if, for example, the ranchers of Freehold are treated exactly the same as the slave traders and all are driven out en masse. Keeping most of the Chelaxians around would build on the developing theme of former enemies figuring out how to work together.

I figured that Vidrian mostly would have gone the "truth and reconcilliation commission" route once the old die-hard true believers in Cheliax largely fell out of power, having been replaced by the younger generation or forced to flee once their schemes of "bringing Sargava back to Cheliax" blew up in their faces.

IIRC one of the Pathfinder novels was about how a particularly important noble family in Eleder largely ended up dead or r-u-n-n-o-f-t because of the heroic actions of a Pathfinder, her crew, and some friendly lizardfolk, leaving the governor with a sworn obligation to improve things for non-Chelish folks.

I figured that Vidrian mostly would have gone the "truth and reconcilliation commission" route once the old die-hard true believers in Cheliax largely fell out of power, having been replaced by the younger generation or forced to flee once their schemes of "bringing Sargava back to Cheliax" blew up in their faces.

IIRC one of the Pathfinder novels was about how a particularly important noble family in Eleder largely ended up dead or r-u-n-n-o-f-t because of the heroic actions of a Pathfinder, her crew, and some friendly lizardfolk, leaving the governor with a sworn obligation to improve things for non-Chelish folks.

TRC is one of those schemes which leave the colonizers with [most of] their property and status, and is not a mechanism for decolonization at all.

Hey y'all, let's leave all the real world politics aside, please. While I realize that there is a fair amount of real world inspiration in our products, I personally am not a fan of direct analogs. Plus, while arguing how things happened on Earth is our only way to parse some of this, this *is* a fantasy world. There are better places to discuss history, and a game with elves and magic isn't it.

In fact, since this is fantasy, we can make a better world than the one in which we live.

It was probably left purposely vague so individual GMs should decide, but I think that exiling the noble class and keeping the rest of the Chelaxians would make sense. Though of course, having the issue of what to do with the colonists stay unresolved could open up a chance for interesting political conflict...

It was probably left purposely vague so individual GMs should decide, but I think that exiling the noble class and keeping the rest of the Chelaxians would make sense. Though of course, having the issue of what to do with the colonists stay unresolved could open up a chance for interesting political conflict...

It actually gives me an interesting idea for a homebrew campaign of how the revolution plays out. I'll leave it in a spoiler tag for people who are interested. Either way, I am glad that under-utilized parts of the setting are getting more love, especially in ways that help broaden perspectives. My previous comments were meant only to address a general feeling I'd gotten, and though that feeling hasn't really been addressed in the way I would've liked, I am still glad that overall Paizo is making an effort to be more inclusive. As a society, our primary goal should be the advancement of all peoples, at the expense of none.

Interesting idea, although I feel like the ethnic tension elements would have to be handled extremely carefully. I also think the sudden change of heart from the Baron is a little strange; while I could certainly see there being colonists sympathetic to the indigenous people, I doubt it would come from the top. Also, if the revolution came about through helping Utilinus, then why isn't he in power now? Taking Mzali and its goals into account could certainly be intriguing.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the general sensitivity of the topics that would have to be dealt with in such an adventure path are part of the reason one wasn't done in the first place.

But kind of moot to talk about, since I highly doubt they'll create an adventure path set in the past to justify the change.

Interesting idea, although I feel like the ethnic tension elements would have to be handled extremely carefully. I also think the sudden change of heart from the Baron is a little strange; while I could certainly see there being colonists sympathetic to the indigenous people, I doubt it would come from the top. Also, if the revolution came about through helping Utilinus, then why isn't he in power now? Taking Mzali and its goals into account could certainly be intriguing.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the general sensitivity of the topics that would have to be dealt with in such an adventure path are part of the reason one wasn't done in the first place.

But kind of moot to talk about, since I highly doubt they'll create an adventure path set in the past to justify the change.

I really never got the feeling that Utilinus was the source of all the bigotry. More that it was the entrenched nobility like the aformentioned Lady Madrona, and that the Baron had far too much on his plate to deal with every issue, as they were barely scraping by. In fact, there's a very 'let's all work together because this is our home' quote from him specifically in 'Sargava, the Lost Colony'. And there's plenty of reasons for him no longer being an autocrat. He could step down for various reasons, become a member of the new governing council, or the more obvious of him dying in the Siege of Eleder.

And yeah, I wasn't suggesting Paizo try and do an AP about it. No matter how they could write it, it would make someone angry. This was more for a home game of mine. I understand there's a lot of sensitive topics, I'm just trying to rationalize the whole decolonization campaign in a way that doesn't leave me with a sour taste in my mouth. Deposing the obvious bigots and racists in power is something I can absolutely get behind, but calling leaving thousands of innocents dead/homeless/destitute and persecuted a 'righteous and justified revolution' doesn't sit well with me. Call me a racist if you want, but I don't think punishing everyone of a group for the actions of only a portion is fair.

EDIT: This is the quote I was talking about. That part about 'servants' could've been left out, but I think overall the sentiment is very positive.

We owe nearly everything we are to our Chelish forbearers, for they brought us this far. Everything that we one day hope to be—a land strong and independent—we owe to our Mwangi friends and servants. And everything else is owed to the Free Captains of the Shackle Islands, for though their price is high, they have bled to give us the freedom of choice. To say that we face challenges, both social and financial, is an understatement. But remember this: We are Chelaxians. We are Mwangi. And we will persevere!

One angle I could see is that everyone who didn't get with the new way was kicked out (not necessarily killed, though some of that would happen), and those dispossessed decided "Maybe we made a mistake leaving Cheliax." So they go to Cheliax, prostrate themselves, and Cheliax says "Okay, but you've got to help us retake the colony."

Boom! Plot.

Personally I would have preferred if Sargava wouldn't have been dissolved, that instead it would have reformed, been made more inclusive and accommodating to it's native populace, as well as had the powers of it's aristocracy reduced, and perhaps formed into some sort of a mercantile republic. Wouldn't it have been more interesting, if it could instead act as a bridge between Avistan and Garund? A unique, cosmopolitan land where North meets South? Not to mention that such a land could as well be commercially quite prosperous from such wide connections, as an outpost in the Silk Road would be in Medieval times.

Though conflict is often key to making an interesting setting, it was a big mistake to slip in some unpleasant "18/19 century European colonization of Africa" themes, especially when it almost has this form of a racial level of antagonism between Mwangi native and Chelaxian settler (which is a particularly weird thing for *humans* in this fantasy setting to be fixated on in a world with a massive amount of obviously non-human races)

It would have been much better if the Chelaxian colonization of Sargava was more based more on Phoenician/Greek/Roman colonization which would entail the incorporation of the local populace and likely an eventual cultural synthesis between the natives and the colonists.

Personally I would have preferred if Sargava wouldn't have been dissolved, that instead it would have reformed, been made more inclusive and accommodating to it's native populace, as well as had the powers of it's aristocracy reduced, and perhaps formed into some sort of a mercantile republic. Wouldn't it have been more interesting, if it could instead act as a bridge between Avistan and Garund? A unique, cosmopolitan land where North meets South? Not to mention that such a land could as well be commercially quite prosperous from such wide connections, as an outpost in the Silk Road would be in Medieval times.

Though conflict is often key to making an interesting setting, it was a big mistake to slip in some unpleasant "18/19 century European colonization of Africa" themes, especially when it almost has this form of a racial level of antagonism between Mwangi native and Chelaxian settler (which is a particularly weird thing for *humans* in this fantasy setting to be fixated on in a world with a massive amount of obviously non-human races)

It would have been much better if the Chelaxian colonization of Sargava was more based more on Phoenician/Greek/Roman colonization which would entail the incorporation of the local populace and likely an eventual cultural synthesis between the natives and the colonists.

I cannot favourite this post enough. Thank you.

It would have been much better if the Chelaxian colonization of Sargava was more based more on Phoenician/Greek/Roman colonization which would entail the incorporation of the local populace and likely an eventual cultural synthesis between the natives and the colonists.

I cannot favourite this post enough. Thank you.

Agreed: how 16th through 20th century Europeans did things is not the only historical way things happened.

Yeah, I personally don't think that inspiration from industrial-era European imperialism was a good idea, especially since several real world countries are still dealing with the effects of that. It also raises the question of why the native people weren't able to resist more easily, as there'd be little (if any) difference between how much magic the Chelaxians and Vidrians? had. I do think something like Phoenician-style colony would have made for a more interesting Sargava. But not much point lamenting that now, seeing that they've already fixed it.

Yeah, I personally don't think that inspiration from industrial-era European imperialism was a good idea, especially since several real world countries are still dealing with the effects of that. It also raises the question of why the native people weren't able to resist more easily, as there'd be little (if any) difference between how much magic the Chelaxians and Vidrians? had. I do think something like Phoenician-style colony would have made for a more interesting Sargava. But not much point lamenting that now, seeing that they've already fixed it.

All depending on context, which admittedly is unknown to all of us at the moment, 'fixed' isn't exactly the word I'd use, depending on what happens to the average Sargavan. 'Different' is what I'd say. I thought it wouldn't have needed to be said that genocide based solely on race is bad. Even a hand-wavey 'we kicked out all the white people and things are better now' seems kinda tone-deaf, but I suppose my opinion is somewhat biased.

How much changes from the current canon if you do take the Phoenician route? Sargava/Vidrian would still probably go independent because they don't want to be part of Devilworshipland, so you don't need the original for that trope.

Well, if the colonists in Sargava wish to escape but Cheliax refuses to accept them, maybe they can simply go to Taldor, Andoran, Ravounel, or Varisia?

Boy, this thread went south fast.

In an attempt to get things to settle down a bit, allow me to observe that Sargava has existed for roughly six centuries in canon, and the distinction between "native" and "colonist" populations is almost certainly more a legal fiction than a lived reality for most people. Particularly among the lower classes people are gonna mingle, marry, and combine traditions. The people for whom it's not a legal fiction - the colonial masters - are the ones responsible for the mess in the first place and the most exploitative. No need to get anxious about "white genocide" when the people presumably being kicked out are the ones perpetuating racist systems to keep them in power.

I, for one, look forward to the development of Sargava as a nation ruled by its native people - presumably including a wide swath of people who can trace their ancestry back to a variety of different ethnic groups and cultures, both native and colonial, at some point over the last 600 years.

Or, maybe it'll just be a simple happy ending where the nation was quickly and easily decolonized and all the white folks went home. Which would be a less interesting story but also fine since it's a flipping fantasy world.

Well, if the colonists in Sargava wish to escape but Cheliax refuses to accept them, maybe they can simply go to Taldor, Andoran, Ravounel, or Varisia?

I figure the Order of the Coil can go live in the sea.

Aenigma wrote:

Well, if the colonists in Sargava wish to escape but Cheliax refuses to accept them, maybe they can simply go to Taldor, Andoran, Ravounel, or Varisia?

I figure the Order of the Coil can go live in the sea.

Agreed. While still wearing their full plate. Being covered in chum with shackled ankles would also be a bold fashion choice.

You don't think they harbor dreams of such an easier experience?

I think the general rule for representing marginalized people in fiction is that if you are not a member of said marginalized group (or at least directly adjacent) you should probably stop at "representation." Leave the stories about "being oppressed" to the people who have personal experience with those or related systems of oppression insofar as those are stories they feel like telling.

From a world building perspective for a roleplaying job, the designer's job is to set it up so that all kinds of people can see a place to play themselves (or their ideal self) or just someone who reminds them of part of who they are or can see themselves becoming, then let people tell their own stories.

So insofar as a particular moral failing is not inherent to the identity of a place, we should leave it unstated in the canonical material. I mean, a major difference between reality and Golarion is that the "Great man theory" actual holds in the fictional world where high level character can warp reality itself, to say nothing of politics, culture, etc. Power may not be conceded easily, but it's hard to say no to the 20th level Wizard who would prefer you do things differently.

So insofar as a particular moral failing is not inherent to the identity of a place, we should leave it unstated in the canonical material. I mean, a major difference between reality and Golarion is that the "Great man theory" actual holds in the fictional world where high level character can warp reality itself, to say nothing of politics, culture, etc. Power may not be conceded easily, but it's hard to say no to the 20th level Wizard who would prefer you do things differently.

Be real, who's going to have more 20th-level wizards, the people whose wealth and leisure time is subsidized by others' labor, or the laborers?

If anything, power should be more ossified and unchallengeable in a D&D world than in our own.

zimmerwald1915, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue here. In this hypothetical fantasy world, what are you saying should be the ideal outcome? One point you're saying all those in power should be killed, the next you're saying the people in power shouldn't be challenged. What point are you trying to make? Or are you just feeling argumentative and spoiling for a fight of some kind?

TriOmegaZero wrote:

You don't think they harbor dreams of such an easier experience?

Most people in these situations know that, no matter their most pious wishes, "power concedes nothing without a demand."

And they also might enjoy escaping to a world where it does.

Also, in the original comment it sounds like the PCs weren't asking. They were demanding.