Ongoing Changes

Tuesday, September 4, 2018

The playtest of the new version of Pathfinder is well underway, and with it comes a variety of changes to the game and how it works. There are a number of parts of the game that we're looking at for revision, but we want to get a bit more data in on them first. Signature skills, ancestry benefits, and multiclassing archetypes are all under review, and some of these systems might need additional testing before the playtest process is over. As we get closer, we'll let you know what changes you can expect to see.

While we're on the topic, it's important to note that there will be other parts of the game we'll be changing between now and the final version, but that some of these parts aren't really very practical for us to test. Take the introduction to the book, for example. From all your early feedback, we've realized a number of ways in which this chapter could be improved, from including more examples to reorganizing some of the information to help folks learning the game. The team is already hard at work figuring out a better structure for the chapter and we feel that when you get the final version, the results of your feedback will really show.

While I have your attention, there's a matter of presentation that we're contemplating changing, but we want your thoughts before we do. It has to do with saving throws. Currently, there are a lot of spells and effects in the game that look something like this.

Fireball Spell 3

Evocation, Fire

Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting

Range 500 feet; Area 20-foot burst


A burst of fire explodes, dealing 6d6 fire damage; creatures in the area must attempt a Reflex save.

Success The creature takes half damage.

Critical Success The creature is unaffected.

Failure The creature takes full damage.

Critical Failure The creature takes double damage.

Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d6.

The degrees of success for the saving throw are pretty common throughout the spells chapter. In fact, they're so common that we thought it might make sense to simplify the process a bit. So, if a spell or effect is one where you take half damage on a success, take no damage on a critical success, take full damage on a failure, and take double on a critical failure, we're contemplating calling that a basic saving throw. Using this sort of scheme, fireball might look like this.

Fireball Spell 3

Evocation, Fire

Casting [[A]] Somatic Casting, [[A]] Verbal Casting

Range 500 feet; Area 20-foot burst


A burst of fire explodes, dealing 6d6 fire damage to creatures in the area, depending on their basic Reflex saves.

Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d6.

That version is a lot cleaner and it takes up quite a bit less space, but this would be another term that players and GMs would need to learn. What do you think of this kind of approach? Let us know in the comments below whether or not basic saves are a thing you want to see in Pathfinder.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

Join the Pathfinder Playtest designers every Friday throughout the playtest on our Twitch Channel to hear all about the process and chat directly with the team.

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The glossary could certainly stand to be more useful than it is now.


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Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
gamemasterbob wrote:
My response to this is "Simple is better if it works". And this does. Paizo should STRIVE to keep PF2 as simple as possible while retaining the feel of the game. The less we have to look up an over-complicated rule the better.

Heh. I was watching some video on Youtube where four of the devs were running through character creation. Well, three of them were. The fourth one, I forget who it was, seemed to spend most of his time thumbing through the rule book.


Wandering Wastrel wrote:

Hugely approve of this, for all sorts of reasons - but one minor suggestion: change it to "A burst of fire explodes, dealing 6d6 fire damage to creatures in the area, depending on their basic Reflex saves saving throw (Reflex)"

If you're going to call it a 'basic saving throw' then you should call it a 'basic saving throw'.

Absolutely and use Bold or Italics to indicate its significance so that players that look through can immediately understand that.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Basic, standard (or their equivalent like common) do not evoke any particular meaning. Just because something is the most common type of save, doesn't mean it should be labeled with basic or standard. What happens when a different mechanic starts to become popular. What happens when you want to add concepts for other common types of saves.

When refactoring, specific is better than generic. As a software developer, I see this kind of thing all the time. Rather than come up with a proper name, something gets the name: Base, Simple, Common, etc. It always ends up biting people in the end. Please use an actual word that describes the thing in question.

Personally, I vastly prefer traits, but if you need something else, make it specific, like: "Make an Evasion Reflex save" or "Avoidance Fort Save".

Please, something specific or we're going to be reminding people of what Basic means for years to come.


Can we get a sticky with changes up to current date? (without having to go through 200 pages)

I know we have more changes on the horizon and wanted to read what is 'upcoming' that is not official yet.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

There's been an update every two weeks so far (8/13, 8/27, 9/10). On that schedule, next one's due 9/24. A compilation somewhere of what's upcoming would be nice, but not if it takes time away from more important stuff. :-)


Ed Reppert wrote:
There's been an update every two weeks so far (8/13, 8/27, 9/10). On that schedule, next one's due 9/24. A compilation somewhere of what's upcoming would be nice, but not if it takes time away from more important stuff. :-)

What I am hoping for is a new play test PDF after all of the updates are completed.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Yeah. I have it in mind to see if I can edit a copy of mine and put all the updates in it.

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