Gearing Up!

Friday, May 4, 2018

In Monday's blog, we talked about weapons and all the plentiful options you have when you're picking those. So let's stay in the Equipment chapter for the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook and take a look at armor, other gear, and everything else having to do with items!

Don Your Armor!

Armor's job is to protect you from your enemies' attacks. Your character can have proficiency in light armor, medium armor, or heavy armor (or, in some cases, none of the above). Most classes are only trained in their armor at first, though some martial classes gain better proficiency at higher levels. In Pathfinder First Edition, many types of armor were effectively obsolete because you could just buy a better type, but for Pathfinder Second Edition, we've made a few new adjustments to make each type a little different.

A suit of armor has many of the same statistics as in Pathfinder First Edition, but now each one also gives a bonus to your TAC (Touch Armor Class). For instance, studded leather gives a +2 item bonus to AC and +0 to TAC, whereas a chain shirt gives a +2 item bonus to AC and +1 to TAC, but it is heavier and noisier. That last bit comes from the noisy trait, one of a small number of traits some armors have to reflect their construction and effect on the wearer. Armor also has a Dexterity modifier cap (which limits how much of your Dexterity modifier can apply to your AC); a check penalty that applies to most of your Strength-, Dexterity-, and Constitution-based skill checks; a penalty to your Speed; and a Bulk value. You'll balance these variables to pick the armor that's best for you.

As you adventure, you'll find or craft magic armor. Weapons and suits of armor alike can be enhanced with magical potency runes. For weapons, a potency rune gives an item bonus on attack rolls and increases the number of damage dice you roll on attacks with the weapon. For armor, the potency rune increases the armor's item bonuses to your AC and TAC and gives you a bonus to your saving throws! For instance, studded leather with a +3 armor potency rune (a.k.a. +3 studded leather) would give you +5 AC, +3 TAC, and +3 to your saves. You can also upgrade the potency later, etching a +4 armor potency rune onto that armor to increase its bonus. You can even upgrade the potency of specific armor (and weapons) so you can hold on to your celestial armor at higher levels. If you don't wear armor, not to worry! Your bracers of armor give you a bonus to AC, TAC, and your saves without requiring you to clad yourself in a clunky metal box. They might not protect you quite as well, but maybe that trade-off is worth it to your wizard or monk!

Illustrations by Wayne Reynolds

Shield Yourself!

You've probably seen mention of shields in previous blogs, announcements, and broadcast play sessions. To gain the benefits of a shield, you have to spend an action to raise it, which then gives you a bonus to AC and TAC (+1 for a light shield or +2 for a heavy shield) for 1 round. Your character has proficiency in shields just like she does with armor, and when using a shield, you use the lower proficiency rank of your armor or shield to calculate your Armor Class.

Shields don't have potency runes. Instead, you might pick up a shield made of a durable material like adamantine or craft a magic shield that catches arrows, reflects a spell back at its caster, or bites your enemies!

Fill Your Backpack!

The Equipment chapter also includes all sorts of other gear you might want on adventures, from rope to tents to musical instruments to religious symbols. Many of these items are required to perform certain tasks, like thieves' tools. The new system of item quality makes it pretty straightforward to figure out how tools work. For example, you need thieves' tools to pick a lock or disable many traps. Normal thieves' tools let you do this normally, expert-quality tools give you a +1 item bonus on your check, and master-quality tools give you a +2 item bonus on your check. Now what if you get stuck without your tools and need to improvise? Well, if you can scrabble something together, you've created a poor-quality set of tools, which gives you a -2 item penalty (much like the penalty for having an proficiency rank of untrained in a task). The same thing might happen if you had to turn vines into improvised rope or use an empty chest as a drum for an improvised musical instrument!

Take a Load Off!

Not everything you can purchase is adventuring gear. Cinco de Cuatro wouldn't be complete without some luxuries like a bottle of fine wine or renting an extravagant suite! You might even rent an animal to ride about town. Of course, an extravagant lifestyle can have a high cost, and the chapter includes costs of living per week, month, or year so you can accurately budget your lifestyle decisions.

Switch It Up!

One of the squidgy parts of Pathfinder First Edition we wanted to clear up with the redesign is how holding, wielding, and stowing items work, particularly switching how many hands you're using for an item. Now, drawing an item from a pouch, changing your grip from one-handed to two-handed, or detaching a shield from your arm all require the Interact action. We've codified the rules for many of the basic things you do with items so the other rules interface with them cleanly. That [[A]] code you see there indicates this is an action, and will be a lovely icon in the final rulebook!

[[A]] Interact

Manipulate

You use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain. You grab an unattended or stored object, open a door, or do some similar action. You may have to attempt a skill check to determine if your Interact action was successful.

The equipment chapter also covers the full rules on item quality and on Bulk, plus a section on how items and Bulk work for creatures of different sizes.

Now you have a basic rundown of the gear in this book. We'll dive deep into magic items at a later date. Looking at what you see here, what sort of useful, peculiar, or silly things do you think your character will spend their silver pieces on?

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Re Shield to Reflex:

It shouldn't even be a feat at all. It should be part of shield proficiency.

"And with my last action Valeros will raise his shield."
"Okay, the wizard points at Val and a ball of fire streaks through the sky toward him."
"Good thing I raised my --"
"The ball of fire explodes in front of you, passing directly through the shield you wasted an action to raise to defend yourself as if it were not even there."

Don't make martials be level 14 before they can do basic, obvious things that should be natural and obvious for anyone in world to figure out. Especially if you insist that benefiting from carrying a shield requires an action be wasted on it in the fist place.

Seeing posts like this makes me wonder just how big you expect these shields to be? These (generally) aren't Tower Shields we're talking, big enough to provide Cover. I'm picturing more something maybe the size of the Hylian Shield for a Heavy, and while you might be able to hide a decent chunk of you behind that... it generally isn't going to stop an explosion in your face. And of course a Light shield is going to be even worse.


Prince Phillip's shield got some serious mileage before it eventually got blasted out of his hands, and as far as movie references go, he's what I consider the "model Fighter". Just because it isn't realistic doesn't mean it isn't iconic. I'm not trying to blast you though, merely saying that it isn't without (fantasy) precedent.

That being said, I'm okay with the P2e shield mechanics, with the stipulation that it would be nice to have shields-to-dex available at an earlier level. Probably won't happen though because everything is nerfed compared to PF1. *Shrug.* In the end, I have no agenda I'm pushing. C'est la vie.


Shinigami02 wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Re Shield to Reflex:

It shouldn't even be a feat at all. It should be part of shield proficiency.

"And with my last action Valeros will raise his shield."
"Okay, the wizard points at Val and a ball of fire streaks through the sky toward him."
"Good thing I raised my --"
"The ball of fire explodes in front of you, passing directly through the shield you wasted an action to raise to defend yourself as if it were not even there."

Don't make martials be level 14 before they can do basic, obvious things that should be natural and obvious for anyone in world to figure out. Especially if you insist that benefiting from carrying a shield requires an action be wasted on it in the fist place.

Seeing posts like this makes me wonder just how big you expect these shields to be? These (generally) aren't Tower Shields we're talking, big enough to provide Cover. I'm picturing more something maybe the size of the Hylian Shield for a Heavy, and while you might be able to hide a decent chunk of you behind that... it generally isn't going to stop an explosion in your face. And of course a Light shield is going to be even worse.

A PF1 Tower Shield provides total cover, and would, thus, automatically block all damage from a blast attack, with no need for a save if you used an action to set it.

Keep in mind that a successful Reflex save only blocks half the damage from an attack.

The shield you picture is easily big enough to cover half of your body if you raised it between yourself and the attack, if you don't think being able to stick something that would cover half your body between yourself and a blast is easily worth +2 to a save to take HALF damage then I don't know what else to say on the subject.

A Light Shield is worth a +1 bonus, which, even with the new math, adding that to Reflex saves is hardly providing you immunity. It's a nice little boost, not some game changing power.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Sure, if you ignore the times that bonus brings you from half to ZERO damage it seems pretty lackluster. That or preventing DOUBLE damage if you roll poorly enough.


I am noticing an absence of Spell Failure Chance. I hope this is indicative of what's in the playtest. If you dump feats and whatnot into getting armor, you should not be penalized for casting magic in it.


Doctor Argos wrote:
I am noticing an absence of Spell Failure Chance. I hope this is indicative of what's in the playtest. If you dump feats and whatnot into getting armor, you should not be penalized for casting magic in it.

Yeah, spell failure isn't in the playtest.


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I've mentioned this elsewhere, but: I am happy with spell failure being gone for armor you are proficient in. I would actually still like to see spell failure - for everyone, clerics included - when wearing armor you are not proficient in. Put on full plate and you aren't proficient in heavy armor? You get to roll spell failure.


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One thing I do like about the potency runes is that you can upgrade them later. I just like the feel of being able to upgrade the upgrade if that makes sense. But I never much liked the open market approach to magical items and tended towards allowing players to upgrade (within reason that fits our table) as well as giving out magic items that could have powers unlock as they get higher level and master the lower tier effects.

Can’t wait to see more.


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ryric wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
ryric wrote:
Not a fan of armor adding to "touch" AC. Touch AC should be how hard it is to hit you with the dot from a laser pointer or gently tap your arm. Armor shouldn't have any effect on that whatsoever.
No. Touch AC is how easy it is to deliver a spell or energy to you, not how easy it is to touch you. It makes sense that some armor can conduct energy around you or interfere with the transmission of magic.

Um, my entire point is that if it's not how easy it is to touch you, it shouldn't be called touch AC. Otherwise I have visions of full plate helping you "ninja-flip" out of the way of attacks, because your touch AC is how hard it is to slightly brush, i.e. touch, you.

I suppose the idea is you need to touch skin now, not just the plate. So stuff like a flask of acid, or a scorching ray, have a tougher time VS a full armor

Liberty's Edge

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Smite Makes Right wrote:
Wait. You pluck the spikes or pry the boss off of your shield and plug it into a new one? That's a bit ridiculous, don't you think?
Considering that, historically, a "spiked shield" was usually a "shield with a spike on the shield boss" and the shield boss (also including the grip) was riveted to the layered wood of the shield (to make it easier to replace the wood portion as it became damaged), no.

It's like saying that the pommel is what gives your weapons their magic. The shape of it determines the damage type more than the weapon itself. Want to change weapons? Pull out the gem and plug it into your new one. Magic shields should not be disposable money sinks.

Damaging shields will render some magic shields pointless, make mending a combat cantrip, or be rendered pointless by mending while adding overhead to the players to keep track of. It should be dropped and with it the notion of recoverable magic shield accessories that only exist to persist through shield destruction.

Liberty's Edge

Diego Rossi wrote:
Smite Makes Right wrote:

The action tax on shields needs to go. Sword and board paladins needs to be a viable option instead of devolving into juggling actions in order for core functions. I came to play an action game, not a resource management Sim.

In addition, I want characterful shields, not disposable ones that get thrown away because they break.

The best in category armor is valid and should remain so because the differences are technological differences. If you can afford full plate, you don't buy banded and trying to make them an even trade off is like making bronze weapons equivalent to iron.

Actually well maintained bronze weapon where better than iron (non steel, iron) ones. And higher quality steel is better than low quality, as the Romans showed to the Celts.

The problem was the production cost and access to the materials.

Note that "characterful shields" seem to be available. Magic shields will be available, what we will not get is shield with further enhancements to the armor class beside the basic value.

I was originally going to use obsidian as the comparison, such as a Macuahuitl. However, unless you are expecting to do crunches, it is my understanding that no one who can afford it will buy full chain over a fitted suit of plate. The full plate is less encumbering if properly fitted, and more effective. It is hands down the winner, not due to poor balancing decisions, but due to being on a different technological level than the competition.

Perhaps you can recommend a better simile.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Sure, if you ignore the times that bonus brings you from half to ZERO damage it seems pretty lackluster. That or preventing DOUBLE damage if you roll poorly enough.

No, that's pretty much exactly why it's lackluster rather than useless. It's something that's going to have an effect on well below half of the Reflex saves (15-30% at most?) that you roll against area blast attacks on rounds where you've raised your shield. It's not even a bonus to all reflex saves, it's not going to do anything to save you from falling into a pit or getting tangled in a web.

It's potentially helpful some of the time, but it's kind of boring, it's a less good version of PF1 Lightning Reflexes (which isn't a feat that gets too many people super excited), and there's no particular reason I can see for it to be a level 14 Fighter ability and not something that anyone trained in how to use a shield would logically do when fireballs and breath weapons start flying at them.

Silver Crusade

Ninja in the Rye wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Sure, if you ignore the times that bonus brings you from half to ZERO damage it seems pretty lackluster. That or preventing DOUBLE damage if you roll poorly enough.

No, that's pretty much exactly why it's lackluster rather than useless. It's something that's going to have an effect on well below half of the Reflex saves (15-30% at most?) that you roll against area blast attacks on rounds where you've raised your shield. It's not even a bonus to all reflex saves, it's not going to do anything to save you from falling into a pit or getting tangled in a web.

It's potentially helpful some of the time, but it's kind of boring, it's a less good version of PF1 Lightning Reflexes (which isn't a feat that gets too many people super excited), and there's no particular reason I can see for it to be a level 14 Fighter ability and not something that anyone trained in how to use a shield would logically do when fireballs and breath weapons start flying at them.

Lightning Reflexes made you take less damage from Dragon's Breath and Fireballs, not negate them.

The 14th level ability will help you negate, probably even more so than simply giving you an extra +2


Smite Makes Right wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Smite Makes Right wrote:
Wait. You pluck the spikes or pry the boss off of your shield and plug it into a new one? That's a bit ridiculous, don't you think?
Considering that, historically, a "spiked shield" was usually a "shield with a spike on the shield boss" and the shield boss (also including the grip) was riveted to the layered wood of the shield (to make it easier to replace the wood portion as it became damaged), no.

It's like saying that the pommel is what gives your weapons their magic. The shape of it determines the damage type more than the weapon itself. Want to change weapons? Pull out the gem and plug it into your new one. Magic shields should not be disposable money sinks.

Damaging shields will render some magic shields pointless, make mending a combat cantrip, or be rendered pointless by mending while adding overhead to the players to keep track of. It should be dropped and with it the notion of recoverable magic shield accessories that only exist to persist through shield destruction.

Magic shields still themselves still exist and have properties independent of spikes. The spikes are removable so they can be swapped onto a better magic shield should you find one. Sinking resources into spiking a mundane shield only to find a better shield without spikes is a bummer.

We also have no frame of reference for how hard it will be to damage special shields. We know they aren't dented unless 4he damage surpasses the hardness. The hardness of wood has gone from 5 to 9. If adamantine gets a similar boost someone will have to hit for more than 30 before it gets dented.

Also, in the same thread you have invoked realism for looking at how armor technology works but called to ignore it for how shield damage and shield spikes are treated.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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gustavo iglesias wrote:
ryric wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
ryric wrote:
Not a fan of armor adding to "touch" AC. Touch AC should be how hard it is to hit you with the dot from a laser pointer or gently tap your arm. Armor shouldn't have any effect on that whatsoever.
No. Touch AC is how easy it is to deliver a spell or energy to you, not how easy it is to touch you. It makes sense that some armor can conduct energy around you or interfere with the transmission of magic.

Um, my entire point is that if it's not how easy it is to touch you, it shouldn't be called touch AC. Otherwise I have visions of full plate helping you "ninja-flip" out of the way of attacks, because your touch AC is how hard it is to slightly brush, i.e. touch, you.

I suppose the idea is you need to touch skin now, not just the plate. So stuff like a flask of acid, or a scorching ray, have a tougher time VS a full armor

If you have to touch skin then winter clothes should provide as much protection as full plate.


As far as the Shield to Reflex thing goes, something someone in my group brought up that is a fair point: Assuming it is to general Reflex saves and not just the two specific examples from the blog... that includes more than just AoE blasts. Going off PF1e versions raising your shield will also now help... not falling on Grease... not dropping your Greased weapon... not falling into that pit that just opened under your feet... Sonic attacks... avoiding being trapped in a Forcecage... Using your shield to avoid all this stuff... seems pretty impressive to me.


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ryric wrote:
If you have to touch skin then winter clothes should provide as much protection as full plate.

True, or full-body mummy-wrap , or maybe even mud-caked Arnold-style!


Shinigami02 wrote:
As far as the Shield to Reflex thing goes, something someone in my group brought up that is a fair point: Assuming it is to general Reflex saves and not just the two specific examples from the blog... that includes more than just AoE blasts. Going off PF1e versions raising your shield will also now help... not falling on Grease... not dropping your Greased weapon... not falling into that pit that just opened under your feet... Sonic attacks... avoiding being trapped in a Forcecage... Using your shield to avoid all this stuff... seems pretty impressive to me.

They have also stated being able to deflect spells back at the caster with shields, which is nice. *said like Bill Murray*


ryric wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
ryric wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
ryric wrote:
Not a fan of armor adding to "touch" AC. Touch AC should be how hard it is to hit you with the dot from a laser pointer or gently tap your arm. Armor shouldn't have any effect on that whatsoever.
No. Touch AC is how easy it is to deliver a spell or energy to you, not how easy it is to touch you. It makes sense that some armor can conduct energy around you or interfere with the transmission of magic.

Um, my entire point is that if it's not how easy it is to touch you, it shouldn't be called touch AC. Otherwise I have visions of full plate helping you "ninja-flip" out of the way of attacks, because your touch AC is how hard it is to slightly brush, i.e. touch, you.

I suppose the idea is you need to touch skin now, not just the plate. So stuff like a flask of acid, or a scorching ray, have a tougher time VS a full armor
If you have to touch skin then winter clothes should provide as much protection as full plate.

against shocking grasp, probably against scorching ray, not really


Yeah, the mirror shield enchant is quite possibly the thing I'm most excited for. Maybe we'll even be able to use it with the Reflex thing to bounce lightning bolts back at casters.


Shinigami02 wrote:
Yeah, the mirror shield enchant is quite possibly the thing I'm most excited for. Maybe we'll even be able to use it with the Reflex thing to bounce lightning bolts back at casters.

Nice, but I thought I read you would be able to do that sort of thing with a regular shield, if you have Legendary proficiency,

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Sure, if you ignore the times that bonus brings you from half to ZERO damage it seems pretty lackluster. That or preventing DOUBLE damage if you roll poorly enough.

No, that's pretty much exactly why it's lackluster rather than useless. It's something that's going to have an effect on well below half of the Reflex saves (15-30% at most?) that you roll against area blast attacks on rounds where you've raised your shield. It's not even a bonus to all reflex saves, it's not going to do anything to save you from falling into a pit or getting tangled in a web.

It's potentially helpful some of the time, but it's kind of boring, it's a less good version of PF1 Lightning Reflexes (which isn't a feat that gets too many people super excited), and there's no particular reason I can see for it to be a level 14 Fighter ability and not something that anyone trained in how to use a shield would logically do when fireballs and breath weapons start flying at them.

Again, you are evaluating this feat in a vacuum. It is way more valuable for a fighter building into shield use. The ability to ready your shield as a reaction makes the +2 bonus effectively constant.

For shield builds, the feat is Lightning Reflexes (but better, because bonuses are worth more). Maybe it could come online earlier, but I don't have a good sense of how the math works out. It's probably better to keep the numbers from diverging too much at lower levels.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Again, you are evaluating this feat in a vacuum. It is way more valuable for a fighter building into shield use. The ability to ready your shield as a reaction makes the +2 bonus effectively constant.

Is it confirmed that you do not gain a static bonus to AC from wielding a shield, only if you take an action to raise one?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

... yes.

This Blog wrote:

Shield Yourself!

You’ve probably seen mention of shields in previous blogs, announcements, and broadcast play sessions. To gain the benefits of a shield, you have to spend an action to raise it, which then gives you a bonus to AC and TAC (+1 for a light shield or +2 for a heavy shield) for 1 round. Your character has proficiency in shields just like she does with armor, and when using a shield, you use the lower proficiency rank of your armor or shield to calculate your Armor Class.


KingOfAnything wrote:

... yes.

This Blog wrote:

Shield Yourself!

You’ve probably seen mention of shields in previous blogs, announcements, and broadcast play sessions. To gain the benefits of a shield, you have to spend an action to raise it, which then gives you a bonus to AC and TAC (+1 for a light shield or +2 for a heavy shield) for 1 round. Your character has proficiency in shields just like she does with armor, and when using a shield, you use the lower proficiency rank of your armor or shield to calculate your Armor Class.

Ah, so if you have Legendary proficiency in shields, and are not wearing armour, by raising it, you gain +5 AC/TAC?

I am still not sold on TAC, but that's another conversation.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Not sure yet how going around without armor works. Will monks and wizards have an unarmored proficiency? If so, the max AC gain from a shield is +2.

Silver Crusade

KingOfAnything wrote:
Not sure yet how going around without armor works. Will monks and wizards have an unarmored proficiency?

I hope so. Most of my Barbarians don't bother with armor either.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

This Blog wrote:
Your character has proficiency in shields just like she does with armor, and when using a shield, you use the lower proficiency rank of your armor or shield to calculate your Armor Class.

Actually, if I'm reading this right, your AC could actually go down because you pick up a shield? Someone who is Master level in armor and picks up a shield they are only Trained in suddenly loses 2 points of AC?

In fact, since it's the lower of the two, improving your shield rank beyond your armor proficiency doesn't help you either. Unless you keep them exactly equal your AC suffers for having a shield...that doesn't seem right. I really don't think that someone with Legendary armor and Master shield proficiency should get easier to hit while using a shield. Maybe there's an unlock at some level of shield proficiency that reverses this to use the higher value?


KingOfAnything wrote:
Not sure yet how going around without armor works. Will monks and wizards have an unarmored proficiency? If so, the max AC gain from a shield is +2.

You get +2 if you're Trained, +3 if an Expert, +4 if a Master, and +5 if Legendary, I would think.


ryric wrote:
This Blog wrote:
Your character has proficiency in shields just like she does with armor, and when using a shield, you use the lower proficiency rank of your armor or shield to calculate your Armor Class.

Actually, if I'm reading this right, your AC could actually go down because you pick up a shield? Someone who is Master level in armor and picks up a shield they are only Trained in suddenly loses 2 points of AC?

In fact, since it's the lower of the two, improving your shield rank beyond your armor proficiency doesn't help you either. Unless you keep them exactly equal your AC suffers for having a shield...that doesn't seem right. I really don't think that someone with Legendary armor and Master shield proficiency should get easier to hit while using a shield. Maybe there's an unlock at some level of shield proficiency that reverses this to use the higher value?

I think Mark said everyone in the playtest who gets shield profiency has it go up at the same rate in armor. I'm not sure exactly whey that rule exists, but it doesn't look like it should hurt anyone yet...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you are using feats to increase your proficiency rank in armor/shields, you want to boost armor first. As long as you keep them within 1 of each other, your AC won't ever go down.


KingOfAnything wrote:
If you are using feats to increase your proficiency rank in armor/shields, you want to boost armor first. As long as you keep them within 1 of each other, your AC won't ever go down.

I want to leave armour out of this for a second, let's say you want to be a Spartan/300 guy (1,800 Abdominal Muscles), or a naked jungle warrior or berserker with just a spear and shield.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

We don't know whether or not you can invest in unarmored defensive proficiency. If you can, it should work the same as wearing armor, except your item bonus comes from bracers instead of a breastplate.


Weather Report wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
If you are using feats to increase your proficiency rank in armor/shields, you want to boost armor first. As long as you keep them within 1 of each other, your AC won't ever go down.

I want to leave armour out of this for a second, let's say you want to be a Spartan/300 guy (1,800 Abdominal Muscles), or a naked jungle warrior or berserker with just a spear and shield.

From what we have seen so far, I'd expect if you don't wear armor but have shield proficiency the shield is the only proficiency that applies. And bracers will help with your AC. But we haven't seen anything on naked fighters yet. One assumes the monk will be no armor no shield. Erik Mona really likes the shirtless Barbarian though so he's probably pushing for that.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
If you are using feats to increase your proficiency rank in armor/shields, you want to boost armor first. As long as you keep them within 1 of each other, your AC won't ever go down.

I want to leave armour out of this for a second, let's say you want to be a Spartan/300 guy (1,800 Abdominal Muscles), or a naked jungle warrior or berserker with just a spear and shield.

From what we have seen so far, I'd expect if you don't wear armor but have shield proficiency the shield is the only proficiency that applies.

Yeah, so your AC is whatever it is with no armour (leaving monks and other potential unarmored combat types out for now), but raising a shield will gain you an increase from +2 to +5, depending on proficiency.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Erik Mona really likes the shirtless Barbarian though so he's probably pushing for that.

Yes, like 5th Ed, I hope they offer an unarmored barbarian type (+ Con modifier to AC). You could also offer an unarmored paladin type (Cha to AC), but looks like that ship has sailed, with the paladin locked in as heavy armour boy.

Dark Archive

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KingOfAnything wrote:
Sure, if you ignore the times that bonus brings you from half to ZERO damage it seems pretty lackluster. That or preventing DOUBLE damage if you roll poorly enough.

Reactive Shield allowed my dwarf fighter in one of Mark's playtest games to swing all out with all three actions against a massive enemy, then use a reaction to raise his shield and completely negate one attack, then make an Attack of Opportunity before the start of my next turn when another enemy thought they could ignore me. That's not just a thing that could have happened, it's a thing that did happen.

Honestly, the way shields have been reworked is one of my favorite parts of the new system, and I'm really excited for the playtest books to drop so that I can share the new system with my groups at home, because I know there's a lot of people who are really going to love what this does for some of their favorite character concepts. The last time I got this excited about playing a dwarf fighter I was 18 years old and playing Dungeons and Dragons for the very first time.

Liberty's Edge

Captain Morgan wrote:

Magic shields still themselves still exist and have properties independent of spikes. The spikes are removable so they can be swapped onto a better magic shield should you find one. Sinking resources into spiking a mundane shield only to find a better shield without spikes is a bummer.

We also have no frame of reference for how hard it will be to damage special shields. We know they aren't dented unless 4he damage surpasses the hardness. The hardness of wood has gone from 5 to 9. If adamantine gets a similar boost someone will have to hit for more than 30 before it gets dented.

Also, in the same thread you have invoked realism for looking at how armor technology works but called to ignore it for how shield damage and shield spikes are treated.

No, not actually. A boss, a device used to deflect blows that transitioned to a decorative component, is not going to add any substance to a bash.

Historically, I don't think that shield spikes were an actual thing. That said, the above argument holds less water for spikes, but then things get weird if you are talking about multiple spikes, particularly given that typically destroying or deconstructing a magic item undoes the enchantment.

If by shield damage, you are referring to damage to the shield, the damage and disposable shields would be more realistic, but would add more complication and overhead than benefit it would provide for the average user. Shield users would need to travel with multiple shields, possibly an NPC to haul them, and tracking a second set of HP that will potentially be rendered pointless by the mending cantrip.


Ssalarn wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Sure, if you ignore the times that bonus brings you from half to ZERO damage it seems pretty lackluster. That or preventing DOUBLE damage if you roll poorly enough.

Reactive Shield allowed my dwarf fighter in one of Mark's playtest games to swing all out with all three actions against a massive enemy, then use a reaction to raise his shield and completely negate one attack, then make an Attack of Opportunity before the start of my next turn when another enemy thought they could ignore me. That's not just a thing that could have happened, it's a thing that did happen.

Honestly, the way shields have been reworked is one of my favorite parts of the new system, and I'm really excited for the playtest books to drop so that I can share the new system with my groups at home, because I know there's a lot of people who are really going to love what this does for some of their favorite character concepts. The last time I got this excited about playing a dwarf fighter I was 18 years old and playing Dungeons and Dragons for the very first time.

I definitely agree that shields are one of the biggest improvements we've seen so far. It's a damn shame that I don't personally like sword-and-board characters, lol. Hopefully 2-handers have some interesting utility to them too and it's not just damage chasing.


Arachnofiend wrote:


I definitely agree that shields are one of the biggest improvements we've seen so far. It's a damn shame that I don't personally like sword-and-board characters, lol. Hopefully 2-handers have some interesting utility to them too and it's not just damage chasing.

Well you had the "Bo" staff or whatever that could act as a shield, plus the Axe having a "Sweeping" effect that sounds very much like cleave and the critical focus for axes is pretty much the cleave from 3.5 where you cleave into the next enemy on a crit.

So far i have a positive outlook on weapons, i just hope they dont break this system at the first drop of the eastern weapon sets.


I'm sad to see that changing your grip on a two handed weapon will require an action.

With the three action system I was hoping to do things like throw a handaxe at one opponent then move 20 feet and strike another one with my greatsword. Which I find cinematic and cool.

Now it looks like throwing a ranged weapon while wielding a two handed weapon will take up my entire round. Which means I will probably never do it. Which I find boring...


Arachnofiend wrote:
I definitely agree that shields are one of the biggest improvements we've seen so far. It's a damn shame that I don't personally like sword-and-board characters, lol. Hopefully 2-handers have some interesting utility to them too and it's not just damage chasing.

Yes, I believe swords can lower your target's attacks (spears can lower your target's AC), but maybe the greatsword/2-handed weapons will have an additional quality.


The other way around. Spears lower attack (keep you at bay), while swords make you flat footed (by parrying and forcing you to leave open guard). That is with a feat and crit, tho

Liberty's Edge

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gustavo iglesias wrote:
The other way around. Spears lower attack (keep you at bay), while swords make you flat footed (by parrying and forcing you to leave open guard). That is with a feat and crit, tho

Actually, there's no evidence it requires a Feat. Those may well just be critical effects you get at a certain level of Proficiency.

Shadow Lodge

John Lynch 106 wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
So, shields don't get magical upgrades

Having AC vary between +0 and +9 (depending on whether you use a shield or not) makes it really hard to balance between characters. Given they're removing 3/4 BAB because they need to make the game's math tighter (and 3/4 BAB only has a difference of +5 at 20th level which is substantially less than +9 which can be achieved as early as 14th level), I'm not surprised to see the removal of enhancement bonuses on shields. My group doesn't actually use shields very often so I doubt they'll have a strong reaction to this.

I know that's the problem. If paizo is writing an entire line of gear that won't really matter in the game because it's so uninteresting and not useful mechanically than why make it at all? If it's for those people who want to play shielded characters than they aren't doing anyone any favors since mechanically the shield will either provide so little as to be unnecessary or be such a detriment to dmg output that it would be better to just increase armor and grab a stronger weapon. We've already done this dance with the last edition, and I hope that we don't have to see that dance repeated again here. If options are written for PF 2.0 that we are meant to use they need to be stuff that offers the users mechanics they want to play with. I think we've seen some versions of this with the shield style feats paizo themselves did or the excellent work out of Fat Goblin that retooled shields into these tank essentials. I want to see us get something that lets the shield be more like that and fills a specific gameplay niche that synergizes with their historical role on the battlefield and gets its own unique mechanics to play with.


Again. Shield users straight up beat two handers, and are extremely functional. And all reports are that the new shields are SUPER FUN.


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The priority for shields is damage reduction over armor class. Everything we've seen with regards to shields has involved playtesters swearing up and down that they feel extremely effective with them.


Arachnofiend wrote:
The priority for shields is damage reduction over armor class. Everything we've seen with regards to shields has involved playtesters swearing up and down that they feel extremely effective with them.

Flip it around though.

Just how effective are they going to be in the hands of bandits, soldiers, humanoid enemies that can use shields?

With the maybe increase of HP and shields being "This" effective, two or three enemies with shields might cause a slog of a fight to happen. And far earlier than usual.

Heck, if Skeletons keep their damage resistance and are good enough to use shields, that looks to be one long fight depending on the party.


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Upon reflection though, I am starting to feel a little more concerned about the two handed grip change action. One of my least favorite things to ask a player who wants to pull out an item is "what about the stuff you are already holding?" I don't love the idea of this becoming the case for two handed weapons across the board. Hopefully it's at least a free action to release your grip with one hand just like dropping an item is. Or maybe it will only require a grip change if you are switching your damage dice on something like the bastard sword.


MerlinCross wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
The priority for shields is damage reduction over armor class. Everything we've seen with regards to shields has involved playtesters swearing up and down that they feel extremely effective with them.

Flip it around though.

Just how effective are they going to be in the hands of bandits, soldiers, humanoid enemies that can use shields?

With the maybe increase of HP and shields being "This" effective, two or three enemies with shields might cause a slog of a fight to happen. And far earlier than usual.

Heck, if Skeletons keep their damage resistance and are good enough to use shields, that looks to be one long fight depending on the party.

While I can't imagine why a skeleton would get shield proficiency, it seems like determining what works well in play and what turns fights into slogs is precisely what the playtest is designed for.

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