The Changing Lore Warden

Thanks for the official update, and thanks for bumping this one up early. Hopefully a lot of discussions can be laid to rest now.

EDIT: I'm keeping my Lore Warden levels - the extra skill points were the main thrust for me anyway.

Time to revisit my -1 and decide what's best for business!

Thanks for the official update, and thanks for bumping this one up early. Hopefully a lot of discussions can be laid to rest now.

Agreed. While I would have greatly preferred grandfathering, I can work with a full rebuild.

EDIT: I'm keeping my Lore Warden levels - the extra skill points were the main thrust for me anyway.

Then might I suggest Avenger Vigilante? It gets combat feats every even level (same as a fighter, excluding that one at 1st), more skill points (without needing to dip into advanced weapon training), and better proficiencies. On top of that, it gets actual class abilities, and ones you can use out of combat even!

Don't currently have a Lore Warden (or fighter for that matter) but I am very pleased how this was resolved, particularly the partial rebuild option.

I am also very pleased with how this was resolved. Full rebuild for those who had lore warden characters prior to August 11th, partial rebuild for those who may have added a lore warden level recently. Thank you! I love the way that this was handled.

Hmm

Then might I suggest Avenger Vigilante?

Precisely what I've been considering. I rerolled my -1, a Rogue/Lore Warden, for Hell's Rebels as a Vigilante and I think Cunning Feint will help soften the loss of the fighter bonus feats.

Ooo, don't forget the Dirty Fighting Feat!

Ooo, don't forget the Dirty Fighting Feat!

Oh, absolutely. Never used the original tax of a feat, and Dirty Fighting actually helps the maneuvers.

It's an awesome Feat :3

RIP Lore Warden.
As much as I disagree with the final decision not to grandfather the old version, I appreciate the style and grace with which the development team handled this highly polarized issue.

Now to see if there's any way to salvage who my poor LW was as a person and a character....

I love that you guys have allowed both written sources of Lore Warden to count as a legal source for ownership purposes. Even going so far as to reprint the updated rules in the blog post.

Combine that with the well thought out rebuild rules from above and i feel like this is a very fair and considered approach.

Well done Org Play team, keep up the good work! :)

Don't currently have a Lore Warden (or fighter for that matter) but I am very pleased how this was resolved, particularly the partial rebuild option.

Adding my voice to this. Well done and thanks!

Thank you for the much needed three shots for the patient to make this bearable

*offers six shots to the doctors as per standard medical rates*

Now to see if there's any way to salvage who my poor LW was as a person and a character....

Swashbuckler fits the style, if not the skill points... AND the skill points! :P

Hmm. So full rebuild. I'd have preferred grandfathering, but I think I can make this work.

Now to figure out what and how.

Very fair, but oh how I wish for just two days more. I had hoped to take my character through a module on the 20th before rebuilding him. Thank you for the full rebuild, though.

Very fair, but oh how I wish for just two days more. I had hoped to take my character through a module on the 20th before rebuilding him. Thank you for the full rebuild, though.

You can make use of the IC (Implement Changes) clause if you don't have enough time to update before your next game.

I can imagine it might take some time to fully flesh out the rebuild.

Edit: just checked up on the wording in the guide, it's Implementation Delay, and only for use during a convention.

Edit 2: Never mind. Just saw that you have until october 18th, not two days from now.

Cool to see. Nice to know I can still find some way to make my prestige class levels work.

--Vad Deschamps, Lore Warden 5/Low Templar 5 (Tentatively, Dragoon 5/Low Templar 5)

(Even if the rebuild will likely end up the second time I've taken a hit to my skill points, heh).

The full rebuild helps my Lore Warden replace a dead Trait. I initially selected Clever Wordplay to make Diplomacy Int-based (and, therefore, I interpreted, a Class Skill), but then an FAQ unceremoniously tossed that out of the window.

So... Thank you!

Tch, wish I could get back that prestige on retraining too...

What if we had already used a rebuild on the character atter the 11th from anther source (ex. a GenCon Gm boon)? Would we get that rebuild boon back?

I guess my Lore Warden just became another 2-handed fighter. The massive loss in CMB means it is no longer worth the action economy to use maneuvers.

Welp. Time to figure out what feats I need to lose to in order to keep Combat Expertise now...

I guess my Lore Warden just became another 2-handed fighter. The massive loss in CMB means it is no longer worth the action economy to use maneuvers.

I'm not sure I get this. I've never done a CMB character in PFS, but at 11th level, you're only suffering a -3 in this version vs. the old one (it's only a -1 at 3rd and a -2 at 7th...all assuming one maneuver, of course). That's not ideal, but it doesn't seem completely build-ruining or anything on most maneuver builds.

Welp. Time to figure out what feats I need to lose to in order to keep Combat Expertise now...

They still get Combat Expertise...well, they do at 6th anyway.

They still get Combat Expertise...well, they do at 6th anyway.

But they lose out on their 2nd level combat feat, thus figuring out what feat to lose in order to keep CE.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

They still get Combat Expertise...well, they do at 6th anyway.

But they lose out on their 2nd level combat feat, thus figuring out what feat to lose in order to keep CE.

That's...a really weird way to put that. Losing a Feat in order to keep the Archetype, sure, that makes sense. But they don't have the option of not taking CE if they have the new version of the Archetype.

I changed over my level 14 Lorewarden to the new one.

I lost a little on my trip CMB, but I am a whip using strength-based build. Up to this point, I had not been using a strength boosting item, so I can make up the difference there.

Chose to loose Weapon Specializationas my lost feat. Made the damage back by Advanced Weapon Training - Focused Weapon. Whip is now a d10 instead of d3 damage.

Biggest hang up for me was having to choose sword secrets instead of auto getting them.

All in all, not so bad. I endured the loss of Sczarni and became a legitimate businessman in the Exchange. I think I can deal with this.

Thank you for allowing full rebuilds. I just hope the people who used rebuild boons can get those back.

As tactful as it is helpful. Thanks for the stopgap, and the explanation.

Now, do I just keep current, or switch to something else? Either way, I'll sleep on it.

To those at Paizo, and those volunteers who have helped us get where we are:

Thank you very much for changing your policy to avoid the harsh fallout from the changes of rules.

I hope that future changes are handled in a similar way moving forward.

Thank you for listening to both those who endorsed the revision and those who opposed it. And thanks for giving us this fair and clear resolution so that we can all move forward

I think you show good skills at leadership here and I hope this resolution can become a template for similar situations down the road

I do not yet know what my lone PFS character with his two levels of Lore Warden will become but I thank you for giving him à new lease on life :-)

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Thanks for the official update, and thanks for bumping this one up early. Hopefully a lot of discussions can be laid to rest now.

Agreed. While I would have greatly preferred grandfathering, I can work with a full rebuild.

GM Lamplighter wrote:

EDIT: I'm keeping my Lore Warden levels - the extra skill points were the main thrust for me anyway.

Then might I suggest Avenger Vigilante? It gets combat feats every even level (same as a fighter, excluding that one at 1st), more skill points (without needing to dip into advanced weapon training), and better proficiencies. On top of that, it gets actual class abilities, and ones you can use out of combat even!

Depending on your choices and if you don't care about feats Alchemist and Investigators were always a better option mechanically.

shaventalz wrote:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Thanks for the official update, and thanks for bumping this one up early. Hopefully a lot of discussions can be laid to rest now.

Agreed. While I would have greatly preferred grandfathering, I can work with a full rebuild.

GM Lamplighter wrote:

EDIT: I'm keeping my Lore Warden levels - the extra skill points were the main thrust for me anyway.

Then might I suggest Avenger Vigilante? It gets combat feats every even level (same as a fighter, excluding that one at 1st), more skill points (without needing to dip into advanced weapon training), and better proficiencies. On top of that, it gets actual class abilities, and ones you can use out of combat even!

Depending on your choices and if you don't care about feats Alchemist and Investigators were always a better option mechanically.

Feats and BAB. Avenger Vigilantes still get full BAB, which affects not only their to-hit but when they get their iteratives. Plus, some options require "Fighter level X" or "BAB +X", which Alchemists and Investigators lose out on.

The part in the full rebuild that says I can change "basically anything about the character except the Chronicle sheets you've assigned to them".
Does this include equipment I can resell for full value? or do items purchased count as part of the chronicle sheets assigned?

Think of the 1st Level Rebuild.

It's that, but any Level.

Cheers, for this. Now time to take a look over my character and work out what I fancy doing.

This is fantastic PFS crew! I know there was an intense debate on this topic.

Much as has been said up-thread, thank you very much for the consideration of all parties involved, and would like to echo the sentiment that moving forwards this might be the better option for rules/character change implementations with newer versions of product and materials.

Looking forward, might it be worth considering a discounted rebuild for when new classes and options become available for characters that weren't present years before, to help promote newer items?

I have mixed feelings.

It is clear that a lot of thought has gone into this ruling, and I really appreciate that. The partial rebuild is an elegant means of preventing potential shenanigans. My own Lore Warden qualifies for a full rebuild.

But, I am now faced with choosing between limiting the reduction in mechanical effectiveness, or sacrificing the story I wanted to tell with this particular character.

I hope that PDT and PFS Leadership will note that rewriting character classes or archetypes causes damage to the stories that players are creating. For me (and many others I am sure) a PC is not a "toon", but a personality that I am emotionally invested in.

I also remain concerned about the publishing policy signalled by the publication and implementation of Adventurer's Guide, and how that reflects on Paizo's quality control.

I'm very disappointed that my first PFS character is no longer legal. Was the Lore Warden broken?

I'm very disappointed that my first PFS character is no longer legal. Was the Lore Warden broken?

We've had more than one thread on that. Some say yes. Some say no.

All those threads are locked btw, if that tells you anything.

thorin001 wrote:

I guess my Lore Warden just became another 2-handed fighter. The massive loss in CMB means it is no longer worth the action economy to use maneuvers.

I'm not sure I get this. ...all assuming one maneuver...

It's not that big of a deal. If you're in to always doing the same g*****n maneuver, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

Removed some posts and replies.

My Lore Warden/6 has been rebuilt into a Vigilante (Avenger)/6. I managed to keep him mostly the same guy, even though the mechanics are different. I took "Extra Traits" as a human bonus feat so I could have four different traits to add four more Knowledge skills as class skills, so I'm only a few short of what I had before. But, I have more skill points, so that's a win. I decided to change his background a bit, to fit with the Vigilante class. He had been a book binder before who went on adventurers. Now, inspired by Indiana Jones, he has one identity as a lecturer for Pathfinder initiates, teaching them all about history. His other adventure is as a leather-clad dashing risk-taking adventurer/archaeologist.... He doesn't bother keeping the two identities secret, and uses the same name, but his character is a little different based on context (again, much like Indiana Jones, which as I understand it was one of the things the Vigilante was supposed to get at, in addition to the costumed hero thing).

I saw people switching their Lore Warden over to Avenger Vigilante, but to me the whole Dual Identity was a deal breaker.

Until I realized, reading through Advice threads, that there's zero drawback to having your Vigilante Identity discovered.

So I think I may switch mine over as well. I'll use this whole OOC Rebuild as an IC "unmasking".

So what do we call an out of the cave vigilantee? Tony starking it? Stark naked?