The Changing Lore Warden

I agree Avenger vigilante is probably the straightest conversion for a lot of lore wardens... there are probably a few other good options though. Swashbuckler comes to mind.

Weirdly, my two lore wardens are basically unaffected. I've only ever used the class for a one-level dip with a feat and a few extra skill points so far.

So what do we call an out of the cave vigilantee? Tony starking it? Stark naked?

A Pathfinder.

Just wanted to make sure before I continued; with the full rebuild does that mean you get back all of the gold you spent (minus that spent on consumables, I imagine), gain back prestige spent, and change everything about your character, leaving what is essentially a level # blank slate with chronicle sheets attached as if it were some kind of GM baby you've never played.

If that's wrong, that's fine, that's why I asked.

Think of the 1st Level Rebuild.

It's that, but any Level.

Rebuilding: The process of replacing one or more of your character features as directed by campaign rules, typically without cost. The most common type of rebuilding is a 1st-level character rebuild, which you may do freely anytime before playing an adventure at 2nd level or higher.

So no regaining prestige.

Correct.

And if your character spent gold on consumables or spellcasting, such as raise dead, no recouping that, either.

It's basically everything except expended Prestige Points, as a few others noted.

As for whether someone who spent Prestige Points recently (as asked earlier) to retrain out of lore warden would regain said Prestige Points, the jury's out but leaning toward yes. I just want to make sure I'm getting feedback from all of my colleagues (several out of the office this week) before locking anything in on that front.

MadScientistWorking wrote:

shaventalz wrote:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Thanks for the official update, and thanks for bumping this one up early. Hopefully a lot of discussions can be laid to rest now.

Agreed. While I would have greatly preferred grandfathering, I can work with a full rebuild.

GM Lamplighter wrote:

EDIT: I'm keeping my Lore Warden levels - the extra skill points were the main thrust for me anyway.

Then might I suggest Avenger Vigilante? It gets combat feats every even level (same as a fighter, excluding that one at 1st), more skill points (without needing to dip into advanced weapon training), and better proficiencies. On top of that, it gets actual class abilities, and ones you can use out of combat even!

Depending on your choices and if you don't care about feats Alchemist and Investigators were always a better option mechanically.

Feats and BAB. Avenger Vigilantes still get full BAB, which affects not only their to-hit but when they get their iteratives. Plus, some options require "Fighter level X" or "BAB +X", which Alchemists and Investigators lose out on.

True but their passives scale and outpace BAB progression by a large fraction. I forgot Avenger Vigilantes could do that though to a much limited extent making them weirdly much more viable for maneuvers than original Lorewarden even.

Alrighty, I was asking about Prestige because this character had retrained previously, but not Lore Warden levels.

Thanks!

I didn't do any equipment changes myself. The rebuild was similar enough in what he'd use that all the same equipment still made sense. This saves me from having to figure out how much gold was spent on stuff during adventures and on expendibles, which you aren't supposed to be able to refund.

I guess it's tempting to sell some stuff back at full price... but I don't think I need it.

Re: zero disadvantage to having your Vigilante identity discovered, it depends on context. For my character, no, and for others who are Stark Naked, no. However, you can easily visualize circumstances where the Vigilante identity is undercover, and potentially a very different alignment. You don't want your social identity being blamed for the antisocial things your Vigiliante identity does.

In PFS, here's a possibility: many of us hide our Pathfinder affiliation, because we've learned that there are lots of scenarios where it's a distinct disadvantage to reveal that you're a Pathfinder, and the VC doesn't always warn you of this. (I have to admit this makes me a little sad, because a fair amount of the fiction suggests that, while there are enemies, in general there's some prestige in being a Pathfinder, so advertising it might actually be nice.) With a Vigilante, you can have the best of both worlds. Your Social identity can be an "out" Pathfinder, tooling around and flashing your Wayfinder to open doors and loosen lips. Your Vigilante identity can be fully undercover... and nobody has to know that he's associated with that Social Pathfinder.

In PFS, here's a possibility: many of us hide our Pathfinder affiliation, because we've learned that there are lots of scenarios where it's a distinct disadvantage to reveal that you're a Pathfinder, and the VC doesn't always warn you of this. (I have to admit this makes me a little sad, because a fair amount of the fiction suggests that, while there are enemies, in general there's some prestige in being a Pathfinder, so advertising it might actually be nice.) With a Vigilante, you can have the best of both worlds. Your Social identity can be an "out" Pathfinder, tooling around and flashing your Wayfinder to open doors and loosen lips. Your Vigilante identity can be fully undercover... and nobody has to know that he's associated with that Social Pathfinder.

Off-topic, but I kind of like the idea of doing ti the other way round: the vigilante being openly a pathfinder, and the social identity being "totally not a pathfinder". Mind you, I like the idea of the social identity being the one who wears a mask, so maybe I'm doing this wrong.

Does prompt the question, though.

Could one have their 'undercover' alias be an Aspis Consortium (or other badness) agent?

Does prompt the question, though.

Could one have their 'undercover' alias be an Aspis Consortium (or other badness) agent?

Faceless Enforcer says hello.

Like most folks here, mixed feelings about the outcome but still gladly appreciative that it was handled in a very fair manner for everyone.

What I appreciate the most is being able to rely on my field guide to be able to use the new lore warden. Although PF is relatively inexpensive in the US, for someone in an Asian country who has very unfavourable exchange rates I think long and hard about what I want to buy. So it gladdens me not to need to fish out extra cash.

Just to give an idea, our minimum wage is an equivalent to USD 2/hour.

Amanda Plageman wrote:

Now to see if there's any way to salvage who my poor LW was as a person and a character....

Swashbuckler fits the style, if not the skill points... AND the skill points! :P

Uhm... no. A Paladin would fit who my LW was better than a Swashbuckler. And a Paladin wouldn't fit at all. :-)

Check and see if there is a holy swashbuckler archetype

GM PDK wrote:

Amanda Plageman wrote:

Now to see if there's any way to salvage who my poor LW was as a person and a character....

Swashbuckler fits the style, if not the skill points... AND the skill points! :P

Uhm... no. A Paladin would fit who my LW was better than a Swashbuckler. And a Paladin wouldn't fit at all. :-)

Is your LW more righteous or daring? the Virtuous Bravo could fit a light armored LG type better than other alternatives. Plus you're now decent in a battle! :)

Virtuous bravo is banhammered (probably for being a better swashbuckler than the swashbuckler)

Yeah that's why I made a Virtuous Bravo for an AP ^_^

Virtuous bravo is banhammered (probably for being a better swashbuckler than the swashbuckler)

The test seems to be:

I think there might have been one option floating around somewhere that kept it and is still PFS legal but just about everything that has OP&R that's not a swashbuckler has been either restricted or errata'd in some way.

Well, the idea is "Is an archetype that turns you into an Xlike Y better than X ? If so, ban-hammered and with good reason. The Swashbuckly paladin should not be a better swashbuckler than the swashbuckler.. but it is. If that also boils down to opportune parry and riposte... then that's really a big chunk of what the class has going for it then isnt it?

Given the large amount of characters I've seen that take one level of swashbuckler, then every other level as a something else, I'm inclined to think the issue might be more on the swashbuckler's end myself. At least the Bravo requires 4 levels before getting OPR.

On topic, while I don't have a Lore Warden character (and agree with Lau and other' thoughts that while i like the the former version far more because it had a nice, neither really mechanically hits the intended flavor well) I have great respect for the way in which the PFS team handled this change given what they were given by the design team.

PP expended in now unwanted vanities are not recovered either?

PP expended in now unwanted vanities are not recovered either?

I think they're recoverable as long as they weren't an expense: like a body recovery, race, or hire an expert.

I think there might have been one option floating around somewhere that kept it and is still PFS legal but just about everything that has OP&R that's not a swashbuckler has been either restricted or errata'd in some way.

Magus arcana, flamboyant arcana is legal and still works.

I realized that there's zero drawback to having your Vigilante Identity discovered.

I'll use this whole OOC Rebuild as an IC "unmasking".

I determined my Vigilante Identity:

The "Lore Warden".

Earlier up thread I wrote:

I realized that there's zero drawback to having your Vigilante Identity discovered.

I'll use this whole OOC Rebuild as an IC "unmasking".

I determined my Vigilante Identity:

The "Lore Warden".

Remember that if anyone suspects you are not, in fact, Lore Warden... seamless guise gives you a +20 circumstance bonus to appear as your current identity.

I actually kind of enjoy looking for a more appropriate archetype for my character.

A pity that Dirty Fighting doesn't actually gain my rogue anything. :/

I'm not entirely happy with the change mostly from the 'don't want to rebuild' POV.

Did it for UC Rogue.. and though it came out better.. I HATED the 'does this work to my build' or 'THIS works maybe?'

Now I'm trying to find a two weapon fighting build with expertise for the 'big fights' that I can use.

Swashbuckler noticeably does NOT work. I might be the only person I know who uses CE as a rogue/fighter type on a regular basis but there are times when you NEED the AC in light armor.

But since I play Akim like once a blue moon (on 1/2 xp) because I want to be the suave know it all rogue who is good with two blades and able to find traps and locks like no other..

I have time to find something that works for me.

I'm not entirely happy with the change mostly from the 'don't want to rebuild' POV.

Did it for UC Rogue.. and though it came out better.. I HATED the 'does this work to my build' or 'THIS works maybe?'

Now I'm trying to find a two weapon fighting build with expertise for the 'big fights' that I can use.

Swashbuckler noticeably does NOT work. I might be the only person I know who uses CE as a rogue/fighter type on a regular basis but there are times when you NEED the AC in light armor.

But since I play Akim like once a blue moon (on 1/2 xp) because I want to be the suave know it all rogue who is good with two blades and able to find traps and locks like no other..

I have time to find something that works for me.

Nowadays there are several ways to make 2WF work. Some might fit your flavor.

Investigators' Studied Combat applies to all attacks, not just your main hand, and scales quite nicely. It's also a class that flavor-wise could be a Lore Warden who likes potions more than combat maneuvers, but is otherwise a smart warrior.

Rangers and Slayers do strength-based 2WF well, using their combat style to circumvent the high-dexterity feat prerequisites. The pregen Slayer is a good example of how straightforward yet effective such a build can be. I think it might also be interesting to build as a Dandy ranger.

Archeologist Bards can also boost their multi-weapon arsenal with Luck or with Arcane Strike.

(Urban) Bloodrager (Arcane) needs a bit more help to get going as a 2WF but it's doable, and is pretty fierce at harassing casters in melee.

I'm not entirely happy with the change mostly from the 'don't want to rebuild' POV.

Did it for UC Rogue.. and though it came out better.. I HATED the 'does this work to my build' or 'THIS works maybe?'

Now I'm trying to find a two weapon fighting build with expertise for the 'big fights' that I can use.

Swashbuckler noticeably does NOT work. I might be the only person I know who uses CE as a rogue/fighter type on a regular basis but there are times when you NEED the AC in light armor.

But since I play Akim like once a blue moon (on 1/2 xp) because I want to be the suave know it all rogue who is good with two blades and able to find traps and locks like no other..

I have time to find something that works for me.

Im in this boat with 4 PC's .. and 2 of them are 14+

I have a Ninja, Monk, Ranger build that I am weighing the option Full UC Rogue or dumping the Monk and adding 4 Ninja Levels

I have a Whip Magus that Im at a loss on what to do with

I have an inquisitor of Achaekek who's story I love that I have no clue on

and finally a staff magus / Card Caster that may just end up just dropping the lore warden archtype

Akim the Crafty wrote:

I'm not entirely happy with the change mostly from the 'don't want to rebuild' POV.

Did it for UC Rogue.. and though it came out better.. I HATED the 'does this work to my build' or 'THIS works maybe?'

Now I'm trying to find a two weapon fighting build with expertise for the 'big fights' that I can use.

Swashbuckler noticeably does NOT work. I might be the only person I know who uses CE as a rogue/fighter type on a regular basis but there are times when you NEED the AC in light armor.

But since I play Akim like once a blue moon (on 1/2 xp) because I want to be the suave know it all rogue who is good with two blades and able to find traps and locks like no other..

I have time to find something that works for me.

Nowadays there are several ways to make 2WF work. Some might fit your flavor.

Investigators' Studied Combat applies to all attacks, not just your main hand, and scales quite nicely. It's also a class that flavor-wise could be a Lore Warden who likes potions more than combat maneuvers, but is otherwise a smart warrior.

Rangers and Slayers do strength-based 2WF well, using their combat style to circumvent the high-dexterity feat prerequisites. The pregen Slayer is a good example of how straightforward yet effective such a build can be. I think it might also be interesting to build as a Dandy ranger.

Archeologist Bards can also boost their multi-weapon arsenal with Luck or with Arcane Strike.

(Urban) Bloodrager (Arcane) needs a bit more help to get going as a 2WF but it's doable, and is pretty fierce at harassing casters in melee.

Thing is it’s trcky to be a tw feinting character, my role is set up guy. Slayer doesn’t almost as well. I gain skill points, but lose a bunch of class skills and have to toss a skill focus to keeper Greater/TW Feint. With studied target im better by a point but I’m not the know it all locksmith I liked playing. I had planned to go 2:1 Rogue\ Lore Warden but now I got nothing to do the same with Slayer

Snakebite Striker archetype for brawler does cool stuff for feinting + sneak attack and is compatible with 2WF.

It also lets you feint and move.

The 2WF can be done with a single weapon.

No requirement for dex or int.

Since my Lore Warden was Dex-based, but still needed a 13 Str for Power Attack, the Vigilante Talent "Shield of Blades" allowed me transfer those 3 attribute points elsewhere to great effect ^_^

I think I'm happy with my Rebuild. Thanks again to the PFS team for working with the Community. I look forward to testing him out at the next Con.

I've been out of the loop and too busy with real life (and SFS) to keep up on this. I signed up for a game tomorrow and decided to see if there was ever anything more said about it. Now it comes out that not only has the decision remained the same, but now the first deadline has moved up. All I've got left to say is that I'm greatly saddened by this decision and I'm really disappointed with the direction the campaign leadership has decided to go. The only bright side here is that there's officially a full rebuild.

The decision to use the new lorewarden wasn't going to change, but you got a full rebuild (presumably, if you've been out of the loop for a long time).

The real deadline is 18th of october. That's when you have to be converted. Until then you "should" but it's not binding. So your game tomorrow is not in jeopardy.

The other "deadlines" aren't deadlines at all, because they're located at or before the publication of the blog. Rather, they're cutoff points for handling people who took lorewarden levels before or after Adventurer's Guide got published. (They separate people who became lorewardens long ago, from people who took lorewarden levels when it was already foreseeable that the official lorewarden was going to change, but before the blog settled the uncertainty.)

Snakebite Striker archetype for brawler does cool stuff for feinting + sneak attack and is compatible with 2WF.

It also lets you feint and move.

The 2WF can be done with a single weapon.

No requirement for dex or int.

Might be the best option, I lose (at least) one feat any way I go.

Might have to try a few builds to see how it works

Pirate Rob wrote:

Snakebite Striker archetype for brawler does cool stuff for feinting + sneak attack and is compatible with 2WF.

It also lets you feint and move.

The 2WF can be done with a single weapon.

No requirement for dex or int.

Might be the best option, I lose (at least) one feat any way I go.

Might have to try a few builds to see how it works

I hope you find something awesome for you.

Also, why the heck don't I have a snakebite striker? My description makes them sound awesome.

So with the total rebuild could you add a race boon? I have a ratfolk build I want to make and it doesn't come online until about 5th level; my lore warden I am rebuilding is at level 4.

Yes.

Same goes for feats that can only be taken at level 1.

Rebuilding > Retraining

Yes.

Same goes for feats that can only be taken at level 1.

Rebuilding > Retraining

Fantastic, that's what I was hoping to hear.

Finally getting around to rebuilding my Lore Warden. Basically all my Lore Warden levels are going Avenger Vigilante, and my one level of Crusader Cleric of Calistria is changing to Warpriest of Calistria. Switching to focus more on Dex, was somewhat balanced Dex/Str but with the Vigilante talent Lethal Grace going Dex has much better benefits. Most of my equipment is even remaining the same, only equipment changes are I'm changing from a Mithril Breastplate to a Mithril Kikko and selling back some unused equipment. After all changes I might have one lower bonus on my trip attempts than before, which is compensated by new equipment purchases. (I had over 80k gold saved up, this is a level 14 character.)

Overall, like others have said, Avenger Vigilante is a good replacement for those Lore Warden levels. (I actually have MORE skill points than I did before, but less HP.)

Finally getting around to rebuilding my Lore Warden. Basically all my Lore Warden levels are going Avenger Vigilante, and my one level of Crusader Cleric of Calistria is changing to Warpriest of Calistria. Switching to focus more on Dex, was somewhat balanced Dex/Str but with the Vigilante talent Lethal Grace going Dex has much better benefits. Most of my equipment is even remaining the same, only equipment changes are I'm changing from a Mithril Breastplate to a Mithril Kikko and selling back some unused equipment. After all changes I might have one lower bonus on my trip attempts than before, which is compensated by new equipment purchases. (I had over 80k gold saved up, this is a level 14 character.)

Overall, like others have said, Avenger Vigilante is a good replacement for those Lore Warden levels. (I actually have MORE skill points than I did before, but less HP.)

I rebuilt my Lore Warden/Rogue into a Poisoner Rogue/Alchemist..not as useful when poison isn’t useful but fun all the same

I rebuilt from Oracle(Dragon Mystery)/Lore Warden to Spirit Guide (Dragon Mystery)/Brawler.

So far, it seems pretty sound for what I was aiming for, and is actually more flexible via Martial Flexibility than the original Lore Warden build was.

Does the full rebuild bit mean I can go back and rebuild this as an Aasimar, which was legal at the time I created my lore warden?

Does the full rebuild bit mean I can go back and rebuild this as an Aasimar, which was legal at the time I created my lore warden?

If the character was already an aasimar, they can stay an aasimar, otherwise no, you can only change to currently legal races.