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Bringing Out the Big Guns in Starfinder

Friday, June 16, 2017

As a science fantasy game, Starfinder has a wide range of high-tech weapons. Cryo guns, plasma weapons, lasers, full automatic projectile weapons, grenades, and many more categories of high-tech weapons cram the equipment chapter, ready for players to select what they need to stay alive in the adventures to come. But as soon as you mention that lasers are an option, and that Starfinder is supposed to maintain fair backward compatibility with the monsters of Pathfinder, players wonder how a goblin is supposed to be any kind of threat to PCs armed with advanced ranged weaponry. After all, realistically, a laser has to do more damage than a short sword, right.

Well, in a word, no.

Where realism impinges on making a fun and robust game, we're more than happy to deviate from realism—but in this case, it's not really necessary. Modern real-world laser pointers are lasers, for example, and do no damage to speak of when fired at your hand. And while it may seem unrealistic for laser pistols and plasma rifles to do low enough damage that you can be shot 4 or 5 times before you're in serious risk of death, that logic also applies to archaic weapons. It's not hard to make a 1st-level barbarian in Pathfinder who can easily survive four blows from a short sword and still be conscious. Certainly most people would agree that "realistically," being stabbed four times with 18 inches of sharpened steel isn't going to leave anyone in the condition where they can just walk away.

So, since we know lasers (and, by extension, most other energy weapons) can exist at a level where they do little to no damage, we can go ahead and make low-powered versions appropriate for the threats and foes low-level characters are most likely to encounter, letting your character start the game with that laser pistol they've been coveting.

But of course it wouldn't be any fun to restrict characters to such low-powered options forever.

Starfinder assumes there is almost always a better version of any weapon you can imagine—the trick is convincing people to sell it to you (and having the credits to afford it). In many cases the most advanced of these weapons don't make sense for rank-and-file troops. After all, why would an army buy a single avalanche-class zero rifle, when it can buy forty hailstorm-class zero rifles for the same amount of money? Sure, the avalanche-class does three times as much damage. But if you have an army to equip, it's better to have forty guns doing 2d8 damage than one gun doing 7d8 damage.

Of course there are exceptions to that thinking, including elite forces, commandos, assassins, snipers... and player characters.

As characters advance, they'll have the money, and connections, to buy more and more powerful versions of their early weapons. To keep this process simple, every piece of equipment in the game has an item level. That level has no effect on who can use the equipment—if a 2nd-level soldier gets hold of an 18th-level banshee sonic rifle, there's no reason he can't use it to full effect—just as a 2nd-level fighter could use a +5 flaming keen vicious bastard sword in Pathfinder. But by giving every piece of equipment an item level, we can tie numerous rules—including hardness, Hit Points, save DCs, and item creation rules, to name just a few—to a single mechanic. Item level is also a useful baseline to help determine what gear a character has the licenses, connections, and trust to buy. While circumstances and GM fiat can make any adjustment desired, in general a player character in a major settlement is free to buy any gear with an item level up to his character level +2. This gives characters freedom to decide if they are going to focus on just a few pieces of key gear, or do their best to have a variety of slightly less-effective options available, without a GM having to spend a lot of time checking tables and making availability rolls.

In general, there's no need to upgrade your weaponry at every level (though you certainly could if that was exciting for you), but over the course of a character's career they are likely to buy better, more dangerous, more powerful versions of their weaponry. The azimuth laser pistol is 1st level, and does 1d4 damage with an 80 ft. range increment and the ability to set things on fire with critical hits. The next lowest level laser pistol presented in the Core Rulebook is the corona model at 6th level, which does 2d4 damage. Of course, a player might run into a number of other weapon options along the way, ranging from the static arc pistol at 2nd level to the thunderstrike sonic pistol at 4th level or the frostbite-class zero pistol at 5th level.

Of course, for this system to work, feats and class features can't be tied to a specific model or level of a specific weapon. Instead, everything is geared to work with all the weapons for a specific proficiency, or all the weapons of the same category. Weapon Focus, for example, can be applied to all small arms, or all longarms, and so on. The soldier's gear boosts tend to work with categories of weapons, such as laser accuracy applying to all lasers, or plasma immolation working with all plasma weapons.

And that's not even talking about magic weapons! The Starfinder Core Rulebook has several pages of weapon fusions, which are special magic abilities that can be added to a weapon to gain a bonus in specific circumstances, or grant new combat options. For example, the anchoring fusion allows a weapon to immobilize a foe on a critical hit, while the holy fusion allows a weapon to bypass DR/good and ignore all energy resistance of evil dragons, evil outsiders, and evil undead. Fusion can also be placed in fusion seals, special weapon augmentations that can be moved from weapon to weapon if you decide to change your primary attack preference.

Nor does all of a character's increase in damage come from buying bigger guns and more powerful melee weapons. At 3rd level, every character class grants specialization with all the standard weapons the class gives proficiency with. This allows the character to add their level to damage dealt (or to add half their level in the case of small arms or operative melee weapons, the latter of which have the special property that anyone can use their Dexterity rather than Strength to determine their attack bonus). And of course class features, feats, and spells can grant further bonuses, depending on the choices a player makes while building their character.

All of this is tied to our rebalancing of combat math to make the game faster and simpler, while keeping weapon choice important and keeping the importance of treasure acquisition as a feature of the game. It also gives us flexibility when working in the weapon creation design space. The various weapon categories mean that characters with no access to magic abilities can still pick up weapons that do various forms of energy damage; create cones, lines, or explosions; or even stagger, blind, stun, or ignite foes. A soldier might decide their primary fighting style is to use a big two-handed melee weapon, but still carry a few grenades and a flamethrower for situations where they need to affect multiple targets in an area, or just deal a different damage type. It also removes the need to constantly chase pure accuracy bonuses, since doing more damage in a round is no longer dependent on having a 3rd or 4th (or 6th!) attack in a full attack action reliably connect with foes.

Most of the math and design work behind how Starfinder's weapons, attacks, feats, and more isn't particularly obvious to a typical player—quite intentionally—but we've put a lot of time into creating options that work well together, and making sure equipment and weapons generally come into play right at the point when it's appropriate for characters to access them. Hopefully this will allow players to focus less on finding some theoretical perfect combination of game elements for effectiveness, and more on interplanetary adventure!

Owen KC Stephens
Developer

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QuidEst wrote:
IonutRO wrote:
So if both a dueling sword and a longsword deal 1d8, then why do they have different proficiency? What advantage does the longsword have over the dueling sword to not make them the same base weapon?
Maybe they have different upgrade paths. Maybe they deal different damage types. Maybe they have different crit effects, or one has a crit effect while the other has the operative property so that you can use Dex for your attack roll.

Maybe the longsword has a critical effect, but i don't see it having the operator feature to justify it being advance instead of base, as the dueling sword is the one with a history of beif a finesse weapon in pathfinder. And if the dueling sword is an operator weapon, then it's tge superior weapon.

As for upgrade paths, I don't think weapons follow strict paths. The dimensional slice curve sword isn't an upgraded longsword, it's just a level 18 advanced sword.
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IonutRO wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:


Like the Pathfinder RPG, Starfinder uses 'psychic' rather than 'psionic' as the term for mental magic.

That said, I'd be stunned if Dreamscarred doesn't do a psionic Starfinder-compatible book.

To me they'll always mean the same thing conceptually.

I actually think they're quite different. Psionics is power is from mentally contacting deeper into yourself.

Psychic magic is about mentally contacting externalities. The spiritualist contacts phantoms, the occultist draws his power from the emotional residue off of items, the Medium contacts spirits, etc.

Back on subject!

Regarding the crafting, is it 4 hours per 1000 you're spending on UBP, or 4 hours flat time? One of the big problems I had with crafting in Pathfinder is that once you're crafting over level 10 it's "Well, just had a big payday, time to spend two months crafting!"

Back on the subjects of weapons, I was a little worried about specialisation just being a +2 to hit, or a +2 now, +2 in a few levels, but I'm really glad that it's smooth, continuous scaling. I'm also really glad that Weapon focus applies to broad weapon groups, especially with the focus on multiple weapons per character to suit different situations.

Also, re Long Vs. Dueling sword, wasn't it mentioned that only Advanced melee weapons get the full specialisation scaling? So I'm guessin the dueling sword is d6+1/2 level from specialisation. Maybe a bonus on feints?

So all long swords do 1d8 from tiny to colossal?

I hate to be negative but on the surface that seems illogical.

Stonedog made great points above about this.

Are we missing something at this point? Like maybe there are giant sized weapons that titans typically use that are not a long sword...say a megasword that does appropriately more damage and you need to be yay big to wield them? Same for a pistols, titans use ultra blasters?

And titans don't use long swords or pistols?
Designer
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Lemartes wrote:
Like maybe there are giant sized weapons that titans typically use that are not a long sword...say a megasword that does appropriately more damage and you need to be yay big to wield them? Same for a pistols, titans use ultra blasters?

This was definitely at least the initial idea for the incredibly big or small creatures, but I'll have to wait for the Alien Archive like you guys to find out how it worked out!

EDIT: And confirmed by Owen! I'm looking forward to seeing some of the cool Huge-race weapons.
Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
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Sayt wrote:
Regarding the crafting, is it 4 hours per 1000 you're spending on UBP, or 4 hours flat time? One of the big problems I had with crafting in Pathfinder is that once you're crafting over level 10 it's "Well, just had a big payday, time to spend two months crafting!"

Flat 4 hours, but that can be reduced if you have way more ranks than the object's item level.

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
5 people marked this as a favorite.
Lemartes wrote:

So all long swords do 1d8 from tiny to colossal?

I hate to be negative but on the surface that seems illogical.

Stonedog made great points above about this.

Are we missing something at this point? Like maybe there are giant sized weapons that titans typically use that are not a long sword...say a megasword that does appropriately more damage and you need to be yay big to wield them? Same for a pistols, titans use ultra blasters?

And titans don't use long swords or pistols?

Basically for this game's terminology, a longsword is a blade 2 to 3 feet long designed for slashing with some skill.

If you are size Huge and you get a longsword, it's cost and weight do not change. You have picked up a 2-3 food blade, with an enormous handle. It's still level 1, and has the hardness and HP of a level one weapon.

If we want giants to have their own weapons, we'll design giant weapons. Otherwise if the giants are CR 8, they likely have something that works like a sintered longsword (which deals 2d8, and is an 8th level weapon). Now is that actually a 7-foot long regular blade? Fine, but game mechanically it'll work like the 8th level Medium weapon.

And, as Mark mentioned, how to figure out what damage monsters do is covered in Alien Archive.

Are you at liberty to say if consumable magic items are similar? A player I have likes to make scrolls during downtime, but as levels increase more and more downtime is needed.

And back to the longsword thing, so it IS sort of like the way 3.0 dealt with weapons. I'm much happier with that confirmation, thank you.
Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
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Stone Dog wrote:
Are you at liberty to say if consumable magic items are similar? A player I have likes to make scrolls during downtime, but as levels increase more and more downtime is needed.

There is no difference, mechanically, between a crafting a pistol, crafting a grenade, and crafting a spell gem.

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That is pretty neat, plus "spell gems" as opposed to scrolls! They sure sound more durable for all those exotic environments that the PCs should be going to.
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This was just the article I needed to read tonight! I really dig the changes to combat at first glance. I will be standing at the door to my LGS tomorrow drenched in hype.
McBugman wrote:
This was just the article I needed to read tonight! I really dig the changes to combat at first glance. I will be standing at the door to my LGS tomorrow drenched in hype.

Same!

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Lemartes wrote:

So all long swords do 1d8 from tiny to colossal?

I hate to be negative but on the surface that seems illogical.

Stonedog made great points above about this.

Are we missing something at this point? Like maybe there are giant sized weapons that titans typically use that are not a long sword...say a megasword that does appropriately more damage and you need to be yay big to wield them? Same for a pistols, titans use ultra blasters?

And titans don't use long swords or pistols?

Basically for this game's terminology, a longsword is a blade 2 to 3 feet long designed for slashing with some skill.

If you are size Huge and you get a longsword, it's cost and weight do not change. You have picked up a 2-3 food blade, with an enormous handle. It's still level 1, and has the hardness and HP of a level one weapon.

If we want giants to have their own weapons, we'll design giant weapons. Otherwise if the giants are CR 8, they likely have something that works like a sintered longsword (which deals 2d8, and is an 8th level weapon). Now is that actually a 7-foot long regular blade? Fine, but game mechanically it'll work like the 8th level Medium weapon.

And, as Mark mentioned, how to figure out what damage monsters do is covered in Alien Archive.

So basically I was right. xD

Thanks Mark and Owen. At this point it's not ideal but good enough that I don't have any complaints. When I see the full rules I might change my mind with any luck for the better. :)

This might be something you're not allowed to talk about yet or will be covered in the book but since there will only be 1 attack or 2 attacks at -4 will there be dual wielding guns. I'm personally not a player who's into this and none of the players I GM for anymore really try it but I was wondering if dual wielding pistols is just more damage or is it more attacks, if it's even possible.
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
cloudsora wrote:
This might be something you're not allowed to talk about yet or will be covered in the book but since there will only be 1 attack or 2 attacks at -4 will there be dual wielding guns. I'm personally not a player who's into this and none of the players I GM for anymore really try it but I was wondering if dual wielding pistols is just more damage or is it more attacks, if it's even possible.

Heck, why not ask for sword and pistol while you're at it?! :)

cloudsora wrote:
This might be something you're not allowed to talk about yet or will be covered in the book but since there will only be 1 attack or 2 attacks at -4 will there be dual wielding guns. I'm personally not a player who's into this and none of the players I GM for anymore really try it but I was wondering if dual wielding pistols is just more damage or is it more attacks, if it's even possible.

This was mentioned in the '5 differences' thread. You only get 2 attacks with a full attack, at any level. What having multiple guns does for you is give you additional options on how to mix up your attacks. Do you use a melee attack on the adjacent person to finish them off, then shoot with your gun? Do you shoot twice with, say, a cryo-gun, or once cryo, once with the slugthrower? I don't remember much more than that, though.

A feat called "multiweapon attack" exists, which has been implied to affect the penalties involved in full attacking if you have two weapons.
Scarab Sages
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Are there any ridiculous/humorous weapons? Like a laser flail? Or a sef-guided robot rodent grenade?
Stratagemini wrote:
Or a sef-guided robot rodent grenade?

Just as an amusing tangent, GURPS has a spell called Beast Possession. In their Technomancer setting set in a magically active USA, the military uses rodent guided missiles. You put a rat in the nose cone with very small controls, possess the animal, and steer the missile where you want it to go.

Can you imagine some mystics pulling this and then druid types finding out?
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Steven "Troll" O'Neal wrote:
Something I've been wondering since the reveal game on Tuesday, are there any differences between weapons sized for small, medium, and large races?

All weapons are scaled for use by Small and Medium creatures, since those are the two most common sizes of things with money to buy weapons.

Small and Medium creatures can try to use weapons built for Tiny or Large creatures, but take a -4 to attack. However, such weapons don't do any more or less damage, and there is no change in handedness. In other words, there is no benefit to trying it as a tactic, though it can be done if you are in a spot.

Well, I can say one thing for sure: A sparrow with a machine gun is indeed very dangerous.

Aratrok wrote:

{. . .}

For that matter, why does having a larger pile of cash still directly translate into more character power ad-finitum? That was a flaw discovered around 2000 when 3e came out, and presumably only included in Pathfinder due to its rushed development cycle and desire for backwards compatibility- so why carry it forward?

Actually, that sounds an awful lot like what happens in the real world . . . .

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
and there are no item creation feats or similar resource sinks.

Oh yes.

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Aratrok wrote:

{. . .}

For that matter, why does having a larger pile of cash still directly translate into more character power ad-finitum? That was a flaw discovered around 2000 when 3e came out, and presumably only included in Pathfinder due to its rushed development cycle and desire for backwards compatibility- so why carry it forward?
Actually, that sounds an awful lot like what happens in the real world . . .

I must have missed the part where business execs walk around kitted out with all of their money invested in the strongest possible weapons and armor their money can buy so they can deal with the level appropriate challenges that show up every time they stroll through the park. :p

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Aratrok wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Aratrok wrote:

{. . .}

For that matter, why does having a larger pile of cash still directly translate into more character power ad-finitum? That was a flaw discovered around 2000 when 3e came out, and presumably only included in Pathfinder due to its rushed development cycle and desire for backwards compatibility- so why carry it forward?
Actually, that sounds an awful lot like what happens in the real world . . .
I must have missed the part where business execs walk around kitted out with all of their money invested in the strongest possible weapons and armor their money can buy so they can deal with the level appropriate challenges that show up every time they stroll through the park. :p

Experts and Aristocrats rarely

a) Go adventuring/exploring/treasure hunting
b) Leave their protection up to their own skill instead of hiring bodyguards
c) Measure their character power based off of their weapons and armor as opposed to, say, votes on an international company's board of executives.

Now, if the real world had, say, dragons, you might find a few more rich people carrying around a beast-slaying gun in their pocket.
Dark Archive

I was wondering if I would like Starfinder but this blog makes the weapon systems sound awesome.

Did not see it talked about anywhere else are there energy based melee weapons? e.i. Lightsabers, plasma whips, Sonic knives, Laser Axe?
Designer
3 people marked this as a favorite.
brad2411 wrote:

I was wondering if I would like Starfinder but this blog makes the weapon systems sound awesome.

Did not see it talked about anywhere else are there energy based melee weapons? e.i. Lightsabers, plasma whips, Sonic knives, Laser Axe?

Yes. The iconic soldier is sometimes seen wielding a kickass laser doshko, and Owen mentioned a hammer that's half fire damage. And there's even more great energy melee weapons to discover!

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Aratrok wrote:
I must have missed the part where business execs walk around kitted out with all of their money invested in the strongest possible weapons and armor their money can buy so they can deal with the level appropriate challenges that show up every time they stroll through the park. :p

How about Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne? Since they are business execs that actually DO go out adventuring?

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Dαedαlus wrote:

Experts and Aristocrats rarely

a) Go adventuring/exploring/treasure hunting
b) Leave their protection up to their own skill instead of hiring bodyguards
c) Measure their character power based off of their weapons and armor as opposed to, say, votes on an international company's board of executives.

Now, if the real world had, say, dragons, you might find a few more rich people carrying around a beast-slaying gun in their pocket.

Gilfalas wrote:
How about Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne? Since they are business execs that actually DO go out adventuring?

I was making a snarky joke about UAE's comment about real world translations of money to personal power. I think we can all agree that neither magical charms for increased personal potency priced mysteriously on the same curve as your increase in income throughout your career nor mandatory level-scaled fights are part of the real world executive career.

The real problem is that if your Pathfinder character wants to buy a castle or your Starfinder character wants to buy a moon-base they're making themselves more likely to fail and die. And that's terrible and avoidable by not directly tying increasing amounts of basic currency to indefinitely scaling personal power. It's not a deal breaker, but it does mean that unless you (or your GM, if you're a player) are willing to make significant adjustments to the game's economy or hand those things out as prizes that aren't fungible for currency, the PCs simply aren't going to be able to get those things and also be successful non-corpsified adventurers.
Mark Seifter wrote:
brad2411 wrote:

I was wondering if I would like Starfinder but this blog makes the weapon systems sound awesome.

Did not see it talked about anywhere else are there energy based melee weapons? e.i. Lightsabers, plasma whips, Sonic knives, Laser Axe?

Yes. The iconic soldier is sometimes seen wielding a kickass laser doshko, and Owen mentioned a hammer that's half fire damage. And there's even more great energy melee weapons to discover!

For a gamer that deals half fire, are you hitting KAC or EAC?

Also, ask this weapon talk sounds amazing :D can't wait to give the mechanic and operative a spin. Though it seems I may need to invest in since Feats for my kasatha bounty hunter to dual wield a last and a bullet rifle.

Maybe one hit check vs both, if one thing is a success and the other not you only deal one kind of damage
*speculating wildly*
Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
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If a weapon's base form (before fusions) deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, it targets KAC.

If its base form deals only acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic (even if it deals two of those, as plasma weapons do), it targets EAC.

wait a second...
do I mix something up or is there not weapon finesse like feat?
Stone Dog wrote:
Stratagemini wrote:
Or a sef-guided robot rodent grenade?

Just as an amusing tangent, GURPS has a spell called Beast Possession. In their Technomancer setting set in a magically active USA, the military uses rodent guided missiles. You put a rat in the nose cone with very small controls, possess the animal, and steer the missile where you want it to go.

Can you imagine some mystics pulling this and then druid types finding out?

The U.S. actually tried to do that with pigeons. They also tried napalm bats and suicide bomber dogs.

Seisho wrote:

wait a second...

do I mix something up or is there not weapon finesse like feat?

"Finesse" is just a property of certain weapons, here refered to as operator weapons. Anyone can use Dex to hit with an operator weapon.

Quote:
"Finesse" is just a property of certain weapons, here refered to as operator weapons. Anyone can use Dex to hit with an operator weapon.

Well, that is cool

So, if a longsword is always a 2-3 foot long blade, does that mean that a laser pistol for large PCs (a sarcesian, for exampple) is the same size as one for a goblin but just with a larger grip?

The tactical sniper rifle from First Contact appears sized for the Sarcesian holding it, not just the grip. Does that mean that when it comes to ranged weapons the weapon does go up in size and weight but not damage?
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Aratrok wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:

Experts and Aristocrats rarely

a) Go adventuring/exploring/treasure hunting
b) Leave their protection up to their own skill instead of hiring bodyguards
c) Measure their character power based off of their weapons and armor as opposed to, say, votes on an international company's board of executives.

Now, if the real world had, say, dragons, you might find a few more rich people carrying around a beast-slaying gun in their pocket.

Gilfalas wrote:
How about Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne? Since they are business execs that actually DO go out adventuring?

I was making a snarky joke about UAE's comment about real world translations of money to personal power. I think we can all agree that neither magical charms for increased personal potency priced mysteriously on the same curve as your increase in income throughout your career nor mandatory level-scaled fights are part of the real world executive career.

The real problem is that if your Pathfinder character wants to buy a castle or your Starfinder character wants to buy a moon-base they're making themselves more likely to fail and die. And that's terrible and avoidable by not directly tying increasing amounts of basic currency to indefinitely scaling personal power. It's not a deal breaker, but it does mean that unless you (or your GM, if you're a player) are willing to make significant adjustments to the game's economy or hand those things out as prizes that aren't fungible for currency, the PCs simply aren't going to be able to get those things and also be successful non-corpsified adventurers.

All investments should have a rate of return. The operative risk here is your personal survival due to delaying funds to the future.

Real world mercs make the same decision. We have bullet and blast proof armor types but they are really expensive and still don't protect you from hearing loss or being knocked on your ass. Mercs get bases to have a wider range of operations and income streams rather than having one suit of experimental power armor for a 15 minute work day.

An assets cool factor is not the primary reason to get it. It's why most of us don't have castles. Really cool, but a big sink of money with no return.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like the concept of doing either half or your level in damage with specializations. I also like the idea of fusions and special effects on critical hits. I also do not mind 20 being critical hit and damage doubling.

Dave2

It doesn't sound like it will make a big difference in high level but it is nice to have a certain minimum damage that does not rely on some attribute
Silver Crusade
Rhedyn wrote:
Aratrok wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:

Experts and Aristocrats rarely

a) Go adventuring/exploring/treasure hunting
b) Leave their protection up to their own skill instead of hiring bodyguards
c) Measure their character power based off of their weapons and armor as opposed to, say, votes on an international company's board of executives.

Now, if the real world had, say, dragons, you might find a few more rich people carrying around a beast-slaying gun in their pocket.

Gilfalas wrote:
How about Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne? Since they are business execs that actually DO go out adventuring?

I was making a snarky joke about UAE's comment about real world translations of money to personal power. I think we can all agree that neither magical charms for increased personal potency priced mysteriously on the same curve as your increase in income throughout your career nor mandatory level-scaled fights are part of the real world executive career.

The real problem is that if your Pathfinder character wants to buy a castle or your Starfinder character wants to buy a moon-base they're making themselves more likely to fail and die. And that's terrible and avoidable by not directly tying increasing amounts of basic currency to indefinitely scaling personal power. It's not a deal breaker, but it does mean that unless you (or your GM, if you're a player) are willing to make significant adjustments to the game's economy or hand those things out as prizes that aren't fungible for currency, the PCs simply aren't going to be able to get those things and also be successful non-corpsified adventurers.

All investments should have a rate of return. The operative risk here is your personal survival due to delaying funds to the future.

Real world mercs make the same decision. We have bullet and blast proof armor types but they are really expensive and still don't protect you from hearing loss or being knocked on your ass. Mercs get bases to have a wider range of operations and...

I think maybe the issue here has more to do with moon bases not actually offering any benefit that is relevant to a "normal" adventure. People will always tend toward things that help them mechanically over things that are purely decorative. Capping what people can buy so they've bought everything they can mechanically before they run out of cash would mitigate this, and might be a good idea of executed well.

I think the ultimate way to deal with this is to make moon bases beneficial in relevant ways so as to make them worth buying even in the face of the 7d8 rifle also being an option. This is far easier in an intrigue based game in which the size of one's moombase is truly important to what the PCs are trying to do.

Or you could just give everyone some more money and try to get them to roleplay

Of course it does not work for every party but my players tend to spend a lot of stuff on sometimes useless junk and stuff that has primary to do with background (a villa in absalom for example) that barely gives them any mechanic benefit
partially because they know that i am rather generous with the loot
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
So is there ever a purpose to wielding a weapon two handed beyond the obvious of it must be used two handed? Thanks.
No.

Can we at least assume that 2 handed melee weapons will be doing more base damage than the one handed versions so that using them is worth it?

Can I also assume that power attack is now gone with the changes to Weapons Specialization?
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For heavy weapons the level in damage is ok at high levels lets say 15 to 20 starting is actually very solid base 2 attack is 30 to 40 base. So depending on hit points enemies that is a good chunk damage.

Dave2
Aratrok wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Aratrok wrote:

{. . .}

For that matter, why does having a larger pile of cash still directly translate into more character power ad-finitum? That was a flaw discovered around 2000 when 3e came out, and presumably only included in Pathfinder due to its rushed development cycle and desire for backwards compatibility- so why carry it forward?
Actually, that sounds an awful lot like what happens in the real world . . .
I must have missed the part where business execs walk around kitted out with all of their money invested in the strongest possible weapons and armor their money can buy so they can deal with the level appropriate challenges that show up every time they stroll through the park. :p

Instead of thinking of it like that, think of it the way a Ferengi would . . . .

* * * * * * * *

Totally unrelated to the above, but in line with the thread: I just had a thought: How hard will it be to disguise Starfinder weapons as other objects (including both non-weapon objects and archaic weapons)?
Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
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Gilfalas wrote:
Can we at least assume that 2 handed melee weapons will be doing more base damage than the one handed versions so that using them is worth it?

All things being equal, yes. There are a lot of variables, like basic vs advanced melee, item level, targeting EAC vs KAC, and critical hit effects. But if two melee weapons are the same damage type, crit effect, proficiency, and item level, then yes the 2-handed one does more base damage.

Gilfalas wrote:
Can I also assume that power attack is now gone with the changes to Weapons Specialization?

Only kinda of. There's a feat, Deadly Aim, which applies to both ranged and melee weapons, but the trade off of accuracy to damage isn't as good as PA.

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
Can we at least assume that 2 handed melee weapons will be doing more base damage than the one handed versions so that using them is worth it?

All things being equal, yes. There are a lot of variables, like basic vs advanced melee, item level, targeting EAC vs KAC, and critical hit effects. But if two melee weapons are the same damage type, crit effect, proficiency, and item level, then yes the 2-handed one does more base damage.

Gilfalas wrote:
Can I also assume that power attack is now gone with the changes to Weapons Specialization?
Only kinda of. There's a feat, Deadly Aim, which applies to both ranged and melee weapons, but the trade off of accuracy to damage isn't as good as PA.

Thank you again sir.

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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
Can I also assume that power attack is now gone with the changes to Weapons Specialization?
Only kinda of. There's a feat, Deadly Aim, which applies to both ranged and melee weapons, but the trade off of accuracy to damage isn't as good as PA.

Why make them weaker? The value of Deadly Aim and Power Attack is already greatly reduced by having a lower number of attacks that deal much higher damage. It seems like, if anything, they'd need a significantly increased damage payoff at higher levels to remain relevant. Low levels when you're shooting for 1d4 to 1d8 and maybe don't have any static modifiers at all it's a clearly good return, but that seems like it would fall off really hard when numbers start scaling harder (like with, say, the avalanche-class zero rifle mentioned above).

Using First Contact as an example, since it's all we really have for hard numbers, the Necrovite is a middle-high level threat that carries a fairly powerful pistol- it attacks at +22 (4d4+13; Crit Burn 3d4) and has an EAC of 26. If the Necrovite was firing on its kin, it'd have an 85% chance to hit another Necrovite while taking a single shot. That's about as favorable an attack as you can expect to get without going off the RNG- you can only go up another 10%- and is within the optimal band of targets for an ability that sacks accuracy for damage to be used. That attack does 23 fire damage (46 plus 3d4*1d4 burn for 64.75 average on a 20). This puts their average DPR when firing on a relatively soft target at 21.64. If they took a -4 penalty to hit and a +8 bonus to damage (putting their accuracy at 65%, regular damage at 31, and critical damage including Burn at 80.75) their DPR goes up to 22.64 (a roughly 5% increase). That's an increase of one. The feat is actually doing less for the Necrovite in a theoretically great situation than Weapon Specialization does in Pathfinder.

Okay. So Pathfinder's version of Deadly Aim isn't useful against easy to hit targets at this level. What about moderate targets with full attacks?

If the Necrovite full attacks, taking a -4 penalty to shoot twice, it has a 65% chance to hit another Necrovite. Its damage profile is identical. This puts its DPR at 34.08- it's obviously worth full attacking against soft targets. If it combines full attacking with Deadly Aim its accuracy is starting to look pretty dire, dropping from 65% to 45%, and giving it the same boosted damage profile as above. This puts its DPR at 32.88, dropping by 1.2 for a 3.5% decrease. Moderate targets are out of the question.

Just to confirm my suspicion about it remaining effective at lower levels, let's take a look at the space pirates a few pages later.

The space pirate crewman has a semi-automatic pistol that fires at +8 (1d6+1) and has a KAC of 13. We can probably reasonably assume PCs will be a little harder to hit (I think Obo had a KAC around 16 or 17 at Paizocon?), but we're just trying to check a favorable condition for the feat right now. Their accuracy against another crewman is 80%, and their attack does 4.5 damage (9 on a crit). That puts their DPR at 3.83. If they use Deadly Aim for a -1 to hit and +2 to damage, their accuracy drops to 75% and damage rises to 6.5 (13 on a crit), for a DPR of 5.2- that's a roughly 36% increase, which is pretty nice, and gives them good odds of dropping another crewman in 5 rounds instead of 7. Speeding through this because you're probably getting bored by now, full attacking gives them a DPR of 5.85, and using both full attacks and deadly aim gives 7.8 (+33.33%)- it's just all around a good deal to use deadly aim against reasonably reliable targets at this level.

It seems like whatever version of Deadly Aim made it into Starfinder is really going to need to scale much, much better than the Pathfinder equivalent to remain useful- though the Pathfinder version is evidently useful at least at very low levels. It obviously doesn't have to be a ~35% increase to damage against easy targets at all levels for all guns, but it needs to have at least a niche value against easy to hit enemies.
Designer
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Quote:
The value of Deadly Aim and Power Attack is already greatly reduced by having a lower number of attacks that deal much higher damage. It seems like, if anything, they'd need a significantly increased damage payoff at higher levels to remain relevant.

The scaling at higher levels indeed gives you more damage per accuracy than you would get in Pathfinder; this is because the accuracy penalty is constant but the damage bonus keeps going up (for pretty much the reasons you surmised mathematically).

Yeah, just looking at the weapons shown so far - 14d10 is an average of 77. To be worth reducing accuracy at all with that, Deadly Aim has to give quite a bit of a kick.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Quote:
The value of Deadly Aim and Power Attack is already greatly reduced by having a lower number of attacks that deal much higher damage. It seems like, if anything, they'd need a significantly increased damage payoff at higher levels to remain relevant.
The scaling at higher levels indeed gives you more damage per accuracy than you would get in Pathfinder; this is because the accuracy penalty is constant but the damage bonus keeps going up (for pretty much the reasons you surmised mathematically).

Cool. Situational bonuses and penalties causing more variation on the RNG at higher levels has been a long term problem in d20 based games (in Pathfinder a single buff can take you anywhere from one point along the 20-unit-long RNG to twelve, which is insane and usually breaks it), so it's good to hear that sort of endemic problem is being addressed.

something like -2 to hit for +1 to damage for ever 2 CL or some such?

I'm ok with this. not quite as good as power attack but Seeing as how power attack or some variation of it is a must have for all combat builds I would say PA is a broken feat anyways.

Hmm will their be new damage types in starfinder? Also will there be a gravity gun or something fun like that?
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