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I love the Dragonomicon, it is one of my favorite 3.0/3.5 books.
Rysky, I actually like those names better.
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Yeah, why put it all in one book when they could sell us FIVE? :-$
dammit paizo, shut up and take my money!
Now we have illustrations for all the five planar dragons - infernal is my favorite - and we know they are dragons that traveled to the material plane to reshape it.
I would love to know their CR and what are their shared traits and abilities. I'm also really curious to know if there's any CR 26+ dragon in Bestiary 6.
Anxiously waiting for the next preview. Hoping for anything about the kaiju or the Wild Hunt.
The Havoc dragon art is the only one I actually like.
I just saw the Infernal Dragon art now. Wow...near perfection. I just really dislike the tail club. A black whip like tail or scorpion stinger would have been awesome. Or maybe a black rocky tail that has lava seeping cracks? Besides that killer, amazing work.
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Consider me part of team Draconomicon. It was a really fun book in 3.5 edition, and Pathfinder's true dragons have sadly gotten the short end of the stick in terms of lore. For what are intended to be some of the most spectacular monsters in existence, the lack of flavor text has really hurt them a lot. I would buy a Draconomicon equivalent in a heartbeat, and I think that would solve the problem quite nicely.
Oh, and the Infernal Dragon looks awesome. I'm a little surprised that they decided to make the Abyssal the elegant one and the Infernal the brute, but I think it works reasonably well and the Infernal is totally badass in appearance.
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"I'm a little surprised that they decided to make the Abyssal the elegant one and the Infernal the brute"
While some are disappointed with the Paradise dragon, I'm far more uncomfortable with the appearance of the Rift dragon.
Just as you said, Wannabe, it's stance is to elegant for a Chaotic Evil dragon from the Chaotic Evil plane of the Abyss (Chaos).
But, well, there are brute devils just as there are elegant demons... It's reasonable indeed.
It does remind me a bit of Nidhogg. So that's cool.
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Oh wow, those other two dragon arts are amazing.
Also, +1 on the Draconomicon-like book for Paizo. I loved that in 3.5 and was used a bunch.
Tsk, tsk, tsk... No. No, it doesn't. We need a really powerful dragon that is indeed based on Nidhogg, so we can't be satisfied until then. ;)
EDIT: It's good to see that I'm not the only one that would love a Paizo "Draconomicon".
Unfortunately, I think this is an unlikely book just as much as I would love it... :(
I'm definitely for an official Nidhogg at some point. Maybe as one of those singular but awesomely powerful types of dragons like the Guardian Dragon, Shen, and Elder Wyrm. There's been one so far in each bestiary since B4, and two of them have been mythology based, so maybe Nidhogg could be one of those.
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Tsk, tsk, tsk... No. No, it doesn't. We need a really powerful dragon that is indeed based on Nidhogg, so we can't be satisfied until then. ;)
EDIT: It's good to see that I'm not the only one that would love a Paizo "Draconomicon".
Unfortunately, I think this is an unlikely book just as much as I would love it... :(
Well...we are getting a hardcover Book of the Damned, so I don't see why we can't get a hardcover Dragon book.
I think my only question is why the name 'Havoc' was chosen. I don't see that dragon causing widespread destruction or plundering.
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I think my only question is why the name 'Havoc' was chosen. I don't see that dragon causing widespread destruction or plundering.
They said the same thing about Tammy...
Well...we are getting a hardcover Book of the Damned, so I don't see why we can't get a hardcover Dragon book.
The book of the damned has been around for quite some time and is one of paizos successful projects in the campaign setting line. I'm sure the hardcover version will sell just as much or even more than the original trilogy. However, I'm not talking about the book format. There's nothing wrong with a book like Draconomicon - BotD is indeed here to prove it - and I hope to one day see the Chronicles of the Righteous in the same hardcover format.
The actual problem lays in the Dragons. I'm a little skeptical regarding Paizo when a product could enter in conflict with another company's appeals... Specially dragons.
But I could well be wrong, and I would be really happy if that is the case. XD
Creative Director
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I think my only question is why the name 'Havoc' was chosen. I don't see that dragon causing widespread destruction or plundering.
Because the word "havoc" is a more visceral and attention-getting word than "whimsy." Havoc dragons aren't named as such because they cause widespread destruction or plundering, but because they excel at disrupting order and spreading good-natured mayhem. Think of them as enormous faerie dragons.
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Creative Director
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We have done several dragon-themed products over the years. Small ones like Dragonhunter's Handbook or Legacy of Dragons. Larger ones like Dragons Revisited or Dragons Unchained. We'll continue to do more, but what their topics will be and when they'll happen depends on a wide range of factors, not limited to...
1) A perception that the public wants them
2) Our interest in doing the book
3) Whether the book helps to support an overall theme we're focusing our products on in a year
4) Whether or not the right authors are available
5) Management's approval
6) How well-reviewed similar books have been
7) How financially successful similar books have been
8) How difficult the book is to pull off
9) Whether the time is right, or if we want to save the book for a later year when it's more appropriate
10) ...and much much more!
We have done several dragon-themed products over the years. Small ones like Dragonhunter's Handbook or Legacy of Dragons. Larger ones like Dragons Revisited or Dragons Unchained. We'll continue to do more, but what their topics will be and when they'll happen depends on a wide range of factors, not limited to...
1) A perception that the public wants them
2) Our interest in doing the book
3) Whether the book helps to support an overall theme we're focusing our products on in a year
4) Whether or not the right authors are available
5) Management's approval
6) How well-reviewed similar books have been
7) How financially successful similar books have been
8) How difficult the book is to pull off
9) Whether the time is right, or if we want to save the book for a later year when it's more appropriate
10) ...and much much more!
It's good to know about things like that for expectations management. Thanks for your words on the matter, Mr. Jacobs!
I like the name. Just thought it an interesting choice.... and I can see that.
I think my only question is why the name 'Havoc' was chosen. I don't see that dragon causing widespread destruction or plundering.Because the word "havoc" is a more visceral and attention-getting word than "whimsy." Havoc dragons aren't named as such because they cause widespread destruction or plundering, but because they excel at disrupting order and spreading good-natured mayhem. Think of them as enormous faerie dragons.
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Whimsy, I actually like that one better then havoc. Besides every time I hear the word "havoc", I think of the X-men.
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"We've been plagued by a Whimsy Dragon!"
"That doesn't sound that bad"
"..."
"..."
"We're being attacked by a Havoc Dragon!"
"... by a Whimsy Dragon!"
=|
"... by a Havoc Dragon!"
<=O
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Because the word "havoc" is a more visceral and attention-getting word than "whimsy." Havoc dragons aren't named as such because they cause widespread destruction or plundering, but because they excel at disrupting order and spreading good-natured mayhem. Think of them as enormous faerie dragons.
Funny, I was looking at it the other way around... Faerie Dragons are stealth Havoc Dragons. :]
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Please tell me there will be more than a sentence of lore for these dragons. Honestly the only part of these bestiaries I'm continuously disappointed in is that the true dragons are nothing but art and rules. I have all five bestiaries and I don't use any of the true dragons past the first since there's no lore to grab my attention. We need another dragons book to breath some life into them!I feel for you there. The fact that the format we chose for our dragons limits us to only a very short section of flavor for them is very unfortunate... but it's a format we're more or less stuck with. I did my absolute best to get as much flavor text into the books for these five dragons, but that best is pretty much the same as all other dragons—only a few lines of text. (I considered at one point only providing one stat block for all five dragons—for the ancient version of each, but abandoned that idea pretty soon for reasons).
Perhaps maybe a Dragon Codex book? Instead of addressing one specific type of dragon per chapter (which you could never fit in one book, as you'd need 35 chapters at this point), it could instead be one True Dragon Category per chapter (Chromatic, Metalic, Primal, Imperial, Outer, Esoteric, and Planar). With that, you'd have about a third of the chapters from the new Villain Codex book, but you could just put in three times as much flavor text for each category (and specific types within those categories), which would give you room to discuss each type of dragon more, as well as how they interact with each other (and other categories), their differing customs, values, and quirks, etc. Not to mention an extra rules section, giving GM's tools to customize True Dragons with new feats, breath weapons, ARTWORK, SPELLS, ETC.!!
Ahem, sorry.
I WOULD BUY THE PISS OUT OF THAT BOOK!
Oh wow, those other two dragon arts are amazing.
Where's the art for the other 2?
Perhaps maybe a Dragon Codex book? Instead of addressing one specific type of dragon per chapter (which you could never fit in one book, as you'd need 35 chapters at this point), it could instead be one True Dragon Category per chapter (Chromatic, Metalic, Primal, Imperial, Outer, Esoteric, and Planar). With that, you'd have about a third of the chapters from the new Villain Codex book, but you could just put in three times as much flavor text for each category (and specific types within those categories), which would give you room to discuss each type of dragon more, as well as how they interact with each other (and other categories), their differing customs, values, and quirks, etc. Not to mention an extra rules section, giving GM's tools to customize True Dragons with new feats, breath weapons, ARTWORK, SPELLS, ETC.!!
Ahem, sorry.
I WOULD BUY THE PISS OUT OF THAT BOOK!
Instead of stat blocks for common true dragons, there could be stats for true dragons with templates (like fey creature, half-celestial, half-fiend or elemental infused), just like in Dragons Unleashed.
It could also come with one new true dragon category, or maybe new templates that are specially designed for true dragons - like a Elder Dragon template, for dragons older them great wyrms... *-*
Path Of Dragons by Legendary Games is great for adding on to dragons.
I can't recommend it enough. :-)
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Cry Whimsy!
"We've been plagued by a Whimsy Dragon!"
"That doesn't sound that bad"
"..."
"..."
"We're being attacked by a Havoc Dragon!""... by a Whimsy Dragon!"
=|
"... by a Havoc Dragon!"
<=O
Now that Bestiary 6 is out in the wild we got some previews from the subscribers and WOW, Holy Apsu! Those planar dragons seems to be even more interesting now with their high CR and common/shared special ability. I'm really anxious to read their stats and find out more about each of their individual abilities.
Speaking about previews... Are we still getting previews from you Mr Jacobs?
Wow, I take it all back. The other two dragons are awesome. Well played, Paizo. Well played.
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Something like Ultimate Dragons would be cool.
Campaign Seed: A great wyrm Infernal dragon "displaces" one of the archdevils and has a very intricate plan for how Hell should involve itself in mortal affairs. Said dragon would also keep famous souls in his hoard.
This post made me thing the dragons were going to be disappointing, the details in the Bestiary 6 thread make me think they're going to be amazing.
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Creative Director
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This post made me thing the dragons were going to be disappointing, the details in the Bestiary 6 thread make me think they're going to be amazing.
Interesting! Why is that? Is it because you're more interested in the rules for dragons than the flavor? Not trying to be snarky or judgmental at all... just trying to calibrate potential changes to how I create preview threads...
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I think it was a combination of not loving (or hating!) the art until someone posted the full line up with the Infernal Dragon, plus expecting them to be native dragons who lived on their home planes, not material plane invaders from those areas.
But the specific rules teased so far, especially the Infernal and Paradise Great Wyrm abilities to condemn and redeem, have since made the concept seem more interesting to me, as mortal (technically) allies of their aligned outsiders crusading on the material plane to expand the realm. I can definitely see an Infernal dragon teaming up with Mardehzuk, the pit fiend guarding a portal for Moloch's potential future invasion of Golarion.