Advanced Class Guide Preview: Hunter

Tuesday, August 5, 2014

Alright guys, this is it! The Advanced Class Guide releases next week and this is the final rules preview blog, featuring the hunter. When describing the druid class to a new player, you would often say something "She casts nature spells, turns into animals, and has an animal pet if you want". For the ranger, it might be "He fights well against certain foes in certain terrains and eventually gets nature magic and an animal pet if you want". The hunter is a hybrid of the two, and she pushes the pet up in that list, "She casts nature magic spells and has an animal pet with all kinds of synergies." Those of you who were watching my little teasers know that there's a tweak to the hunter that, while small in terms of wordcount, I think will have major repercussions in making the hunter awesome.Flavorwise, you might have been able to pull off some of the hunter feel before with a ranger or druid character. In fact, this class was the one that was the hardest sell to me as a playtester, as the first playtest version felt like you could make an archetype of druid that traded out wild shape for the hunter abilities and it wouldn't be too out of line for an archetype. Perhaps an alternate class at most. Basically, she was a prepared Wisdom-based caster like the druid, with the druid's BAB and skill points, mostly druid weapons and armor plus bows, using the druid spell list but casting with the 6th-level spellcasting advancement of a magus. She got a bunch of teamwork feats that the companion automatically shared, which was pretty cool, and a feature called animal focus that gave her and her companion a choice from a menu of small but generally useful buffs as a swift action with very limited uses.


Illustration by Subroto Bhaumik

Playtest feedback was mostly along the same lines—the teamwork feats were a good start, but hunter still had a way to go if she wanted to be able to hang out with the druids and rangers and hold her own. So she whistled for her companion and retreated into the woods to meditate on her nature. Though she hadn't made as many friends as she wanted yet, she wasn't lonely with her companion there. When she emerged, she had some substantial upgrades. For one, she could now use all martial weapons and despite the lack of proficiency, she wasn't restricted from wearing heavy armor if she wanted. More importantly, she gained earlier access on abilities like wild empathy, she scored free Precise Shot at level 2, and her animal focus now worked for about triple the number of minutes per day on her and permanently on her animal companion (she could still switch it out). She even cooked up a few new teamwork feats that worked great for a hunter.

But there was still plenty of good feedback about the hunter needing to change a bit more to find her niche. Many playtesters gave feedback that when running side-by-side comparisons of druids and hunters in their games, despite all the hunter had gained, she was still not doing as well as the druid. Unlike most of the other classes in my reveal blog, the hunter has plenty of new secrets to share, including multiple new class features involving using her link to scout and raising her companion from the dead. For melee hunters, that free Precise Shot freebie I mentioned can now be swapped for an extremely juicy early-access Outflank at level 2! If your companion dies in action, all the permanent animal focus powers instantly shift over to you, allowing you to stack up to four different powers onto yourself starting at level 8. The hunter even has 6 skill points per level now!

But the big change is so exciting, it gets its own paragraph. Remember how the hunter can cast spells from the druid spell list, up to 6th level spells? Well now, she can cast ranger spells too. And if they're on both lists, she casts them using the lower level. That's right, she's the only class in the game who can cast resist energy as a 1st-level character! Gravity bow, lead blades, and aspect of the falcon at 1st. Wind wall and spike growth as 2nd-level spells at 4th. The list goes on. She's also a spontaneous caster now, so she doesn't have to load up her slots with resist energy to still be able to cast it when you need it. So basically, for low levels, at least (particularly, 1, 2, and 4), the hunter is arguably a better caster than the druid in some situations (the druid still has the ability to prepare any spell from her list when you need that odd spell, so she still has her place), with better skills, better weapons, and a kickass companion. There's still plenty of reason to play a druid, but through one elegant change, the hunter has vaulted her way up to the point where I hope she will satisfy many of the playtesters who shape her new abilities.

Alright then, on to the archetypes! Today we'll be going on a hunt through the archetype section to stalk that cool-looking guy with the white tiger you see over there. He's definitely not the verminous hunter because he doesn't have a vermin companion, though he does look badass enough to be able to walk right through swarms. He's not the packmaster because he doesn't have several animal companions. While he definitely looks feral, he probably isn't the feral hunter because the feral hunter trades out the animal companion to gain permanent bonuses, wild shape, and boosts to summoned allies, though perhaps that's a summoned tiger by his side. He's also probably not the divine hunter, since even though I could believe he has access to a domain's powers and granted spells, that tiger doesn't look celestial or fiendish. So what's the conclusion? Well, I suppose he might be the feral hunter with a summoned tiger, but personally I think he's waiting to be your next PC! Anyone want to stat him up here in this thread? Perhaps it will help tide your salivating hunger for the final book. Soon, my friends. Soon.

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Tags: Hunter Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subroto Bhaumik
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Detect Magic and Light are two of the most important utility spells in the game, and both are 0 level spells.


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Odraude wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Odraude wrote:
graystone wrote:
Zark wrote:
LazarX wrote:

I'm happy most for the Precise Shot feat. Because Precise Companion became totally worthless in a situation where the hunter and her pet aren't in a solo battle. We house ruled that the benefits of Precise companion didn't go away when someone else joined melee.

Ranger spells though.... that's pretty awesome.

True, but removing cantrips was a not needed nerf.

My gut feling tells me I won't be playing this class.

Wait... No cantrips... Now I'm less interested again...
Where does it say no cantrips? The second playtest had the hunter with 0 level spells and nothing in the preview says they lost that. So... where are people getting this?
That's my riddle. There's a very reasonable reason that a non-thorough reading might think this. Have any guesses?

Because he is switched to a Spontaneous caster and as a result he doesn't have a daily amount of 0 level spells in a day because they can all be recast over and over. So the only limitation on his 0 level spells is his spells known.

If you look at any of the spontaneous caster tables like the sorcerer and oracle, you will notice there is no column for daily zero level spell slots.

Was just going to type this. You beat me :p

Also, are 0 level spells really so good that it's a deal breaker to people if the class doesn't have it? I didn't realize acid splash and create water were so desperately desired for casters ;)

0-level spells can add lots of flavor to some people. For example, I look for ways, as a caster, to have both Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost and Create Water on my list so I can make snow cones when I want to.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Detect Magic and Light are two of the most important utility spells in the game, and both are 0 level spells.

True but I wouldn't consider the class useless without them. Especially since as least with Light, you can replace that with a torch or sun rod. Just seems like silly mountain-building out of molehills.

Also, I just realized that subscribers have the book now. Lucky them :p

Tels wrote:
Odraude wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Odraude wrote:
graystone wrote:
Zark wrote:
LazarX wrote:

I'm happy most for the Precise Shot feat. Because Precise Companion became totally worthless in a situation where the hunter and her pet aren't in a solo battle. We house ruled that the benefits of Precise companion didn't go away when someone else joined melee.

Ranger spells though.... that's pretty awesome.

True, but removing cantrips was a not needed nerf.

My gut feling tells me I won't be playing this class.

Wait... No cantrips... Now I'm less interested again...
Where does it say no cantrips? The second playtest had the hunter with 0 level spells and nothing in the preview says they lost that. So... where are people getting this?
That's my riddle. There's a very reasonable reason that a non-thorough reading might think this. Have any guesses?

Because he is switched to a Spontaneous caster and as a result he doesn't have a daily amount of 0 level spells in a day because they can all be recast over and over. So the only limitation on his 0 level spells is his spells known.

If you look at any of the spontaneous caster tables like the sorcerer and oracle, you will notice there is no column for daily zero level spell slots.

Was just going to type this. You beat me :p

Also, are 0 level spells really so good that it's a deal breaker to people if the class doesn't have it? I didn't realize acid splash and create water were so desperately desired for casters ;)

0-level spells can add lots of flavor to some people. For example, I look for ways, as a caster, to have both Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost and Create Water on my list so I can make snow cones when I want to.

Flavor is one thing, but I don't think a class is going to be worthless if they can't cast those things.

Not that it matters, since they can. :)


Mark Seifter wrote:
You may want to wait and read the book yourself rather than trusting everything you read online ;)

Oh, stop, Mark. We know everything you read online is gospel.

Seriously, though- I want this book naowwww!!! :D


Odraude wrote:


Also, are 0 level spells really so good that it's a deal breaker to people if the class doesn't have it? I didn't realize acid splash and create water were so desperately desired for casters ;)

There are several archetypes of wizard I don't touch because they don't get their cantrips anymore. Cantrips are those fun things you can do at any time no matter what else happened. Some game sessions I cast prestidigitation more than I cast 1st+ spells. But I'm one of those strange people that uses the human favored class bonus to gain cantrips.

I'm glad it seem that no cantrips is in error.


graystone wrote:
Odraude wrote:


Also, are 0 level spells really so good that it's a deal breaker to people if the class doesn't have it? I didn't realize acid splash and create water were so desperately desired for casters ;)

There are several archetypes of wizard I don't touch because they don't get their cantrips anymore. Cantrips are those fun things you can do at any time no matter what else happened. Some game sessions I cast prestidigitation more than I cast 1st+ spells. But I'm one of those strange people that uses the human favored class bonus to gain cantrips.

I'm glad it seem that no cantrips is in error.

Glad you're happy that your unfounded fear over a trivial thing happened to be false.

By the way, I've got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, if you are interested ;)

(I jest I jest :D )


graystone wrote:
Cantrips are those fun things you can do at any time no matter what else happened. Some game sessions I cast prestidigitation more than I cast 1st+ spells. But I'm one of those strange people that uses the human favored class bonus to gain cantrips.

I'd tend to agree- though they may not be awesomely powerful (particularly at higher levels), I like cantrips/orisons myself. In fact, I wish there were more of them in the newer rulebooks (for instance, I wish that the Ultimate Cantrips had made the final cut of UM.)


Cthulhudrew wrote:
graystone wrote:
Cantrips are those fun things you can do at any time no matter what else happened. Some game sessions I cast prestidigitation more than I cast 1st+ spells. But I'm one of those strange people that uses the human favored class bonus to gain cantrips.
I'd tend to agree- though they may not be awesomely powerful (particularly at higher levels), I like cantrips/orisons myself. In fact, I wish there were more of them in the newer rulebooks (for instance, I wish that the Ultimate Cantrips had made the final cut of UM.)

Yeah, it was a shame that they didn't add those in. I don't really see them as a boost in power, just flavor. And it looks like most people like them for flavor.


Tels wrote:
0-level spells can add lots of flavor to some people. For example, I look for ways, as a caster, to have both Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost and Create Water on my list so I can make snow cones when I want to.

Nice!


Landon Wrinkler pretty much covered my thoughts already (thanks!)

Anyway, I feel compelled to repeat: "If you don't like it, don't play it". You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but you can't assume that everyone else would change their opinions to match yours.

If something bothers you as a GM, then by all means, ban it in your home games, but please, when it comes to public games, like PFS, it might be best to keep your opinions to yourself and let others play as they wish, as much as you might disagree with their decisions.


Preview Blog wrote:
But the big change is so exciting, it gets its own paragraph. Remember how the hunter can cast spells from the druid spell list, up to 6th level spells? Well now, she can cast ranger spells too. And if they're on both lists, she casts them using the lower level. That's right, she's the only class in the game who can cast resist energy as a 1st-level character!

This is truly disappointing. Wasn't the lesson learned with the Summoner?


Majuba wrote:
Preview Blog wrote:
But the big change is so exciting, it gets its own paragraph. Remember how the hunter can cast spells from the druid spell list, up to 6th level spells? Well now, she can cast ranger spells too. And if they're on both lists, she casts them using the lower level. That's right, she's the only class in the game who can cast resist energy as a 1st-level character!
This is truly disappointing. Wasn't the lesson learned with the Summoner?

What lesson?

The only problem with summoner spellcasting that I am aware of is that they get some spells at a lower spell level, giving them the ability to craft super cheap wands, potions and so on.

This wouldn't be the case with the hunter, because she has her spells at the same spell level as dthe druid or ranger, so she can't pull of any shenanigans that the other two classes couldn't already.


Mark Seifter wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Odraude wrote:
graystone wrote:
Zark wrote:
LazarX wrote:

I'm happy most for the Precise Shot feat. Because Precise Companion became totally worthless in a situation where the hunter and her pet aren't in a solo battle. We house ruled that the benefits of Precise companion didn't go away when someone else joined melee.

Ranger spells though.... that's pretty awesome.

True, but removing cantrips was a not needed nerf.

My gut feling tells me I won't be playing this class.

Wait... No cantrips... Now I'm less interested again...
Where does it say no cantrips? The second playtest had the hunter with 0 level spells and nothing in the preview says they lost that. So... where are people getting this?
That's my riddle. There's a very reasonable reason that a non-thorough reading might think this. Have any guesses?

Because he is switched to a Spontaneous caster and as a result he doesn't have a daily amount of 0 level spells in a day because they can all be recast over and over. So the only limitation on his 0 level spells is his spells known.

If you look at any of the spontaneous caster tables like the sorcerer and oracle, you will notice there is no column for daily zero level spell slots.

You got it!

My sinsear apology.

I should know better than to trust rumours. Really embarrassing that I haven't learnt my lesson after all these years.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Gal: "You know they can't put anything that's not true on the internet."
Guy: "Where'd you hear that?"
In unison: "The internet."


Kryzbyn wrote:

Gal: "You know they can't put anything that's not true on the internet."

Guy: "Where'd you hear that?"
In unison: "The internet."

you get a thousand favorites from me


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I'm excited about these changes, especially to spontaneous casting.

And as an aside, I don't know what archetype that tiger-dude represents, but I like the art. Who knew chaps, an open-chested shirt, and a loincloth made such an appealing combo? ;D


Does anyone know if the Feral Hunter still gets the Hunter bonus teamwork feats?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

He gets Precise Companion and a Teamwork feat at 3rd level. The rest are traded for the ability to get more creatures with summon nature's ally.

Since that means that 3rd level teamwork feat remains the 'most recently selected' forever, there is some flexibility there.

It looks like he still has Hunter Tactics, but no animal companion to apply it to.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Spontaneous Hunter means Scaled Disciple Kobold Dragon Disciples. Who else is hyped? <queue posters with Kobold avatars>

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Xethik, hunters cast divine spells. Dragon Disciple requires arcane spells. The spontaneous magus archetype should fix you up, though.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ross Byers wrote:
Xethik, hunters cast divine spells. Dragon Disciple requires arcane spells. The spontaneous magus archetype should fix you up, though.

Scaled Disciple is a Kobold-only feat that let's you go Dragon Disciple with Divine casting. Hence the Kobold part.

Scaled Disciple

Except Kobold's -4 Strength doesn't outweigh the Dragon Disciple's +4 Strength from the first four levels.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Did not know that. Interesting.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ross Byers wrote:
Did not know that. Interesting.

The less the rest of the world knows, the better Kobolds are suited to taking over. And by Kobolds, I mean Humans/Aasimar with mystical racial heritage relating to Kobolds. Somehow.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Xethik wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
Did not know that. Interesting.
The less the rest of the world knows, the better Kobolds are suited to taking over. And by Kobolds, I mean Humans/Aasimar with mystical racial heritage relating to Kobolds. Somehow.

Father was a Celestial Kobold Chieftain with some really strange fetishes...

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

The Feral Hunter summon ability actually worries me a bit. More critters are nice, but a Druid of the same level could just use a higher-level summon spell to get the same number of creatures from the lower level list.

For instance, at level 6, when the feral hunter gains the ability, instead of getting one creature off the 2nd level list, he can get two creatures. But a 6th level druid has access to the third level list, and can just trade down to get 1d3 2nd level creatures (average 2) instead. I guess its more reliable, but that gap only widens as the level increases. Getting 2 creatures off the 6th level list at level 16 isn't as impressive as the druid getting 1d4 + 1 instead, even with Outflank.


After reading through the hunter part of the ACG, I still just cannot find a real reason to take it over an Animal domain inquisitor. Inquisitor has much better non-combat suite of abilities and skills, and judgement destroys animal focus as a combat boost. Sure, the hunter spell set is better for boosting the companion, but the inquisitor has a very solid spell set and some really nice buffs. And there is a feat in the ACG the fixes the issue anyways. A buffed version of improved share spells where you dont have to remain adjacent. So cast your Righteous Might or Divine Power, split the rounds, and have your AC go town.

The hunter just seams to suffer from rogue syndrome for combat situations. 3/4 BaB with no attack boosts is just rough. (Not that I am saying the hunter is rogue level, 6 level casting is a powerful ability) Like other posters have said, I feel there are classes that can do whatever you build your hunter to do but better, and still have other strengths that the hunter doesnt have. The flavor is nice, but I am a staunch believer that flavor is mutable. If you want to call your animal domain inquisitor a nature warrior, fine by me.


Thanx for the upgraded hunter and it's archetypes. Main class is definitely more I thought the hunter should be. But liking the feral hunter archetype, as extension to the idea of how I envisage the hunter to be for me (without companion).

Just small issue I have for feral hunter that needs clarification. Summoned Pack (Sp) is gained at 6th level and replaces all the teamwork feats from level 6. I see one gets 1 additional summon at 6th level, yet seems to remain at 1 additional summon all the way to 18th, so remaining static, yet under normal class there was a scaling increase in teamwork feats. Seems odd to me a scaling feature is replaced by a constant feature.


Not sure if this is a typo error under Feral Hunter

For Wild Shape (Su), it states it replaces "master of the wild", yet in main class there is no feature "master of the wild".


logan grayble wrote:
Does anyone know if the Feral Hunter still gets the Hunter bonus teamwork feats?

Only the teamwork feat at 3rd level, all other teamwork feats is absorbed into Summoned Pack (Sp) ability.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Calth wrote:
The hunter just seams to suffer from rogue syndrome for combat situations. 3/4 BaB with no attack boosts is just rough. (Not that I am saying the hunter is rogue level, 6 level casting is a powerful ability) Like other posters have said, I feel there are classes that can do whatever you build your hunter to do but better, and still have other strengths that the hunter doesnt have. The flavor is nice, but I am a staunch believer that flavor is mutable. If you want to call your animal domain inquisitor a nature warrior, fine by me.

At 6 level I have distracting charge and ferocious loyalty, can give me +1 at whatever foe my cat is engaged with, and an additional +2 on my first shot when she charges. With my Precise Shot bonus feat, I think I'm boosted enough.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Calth wrote:
After reading through the hunter part of the ACG, I still just cannot find a real reason to take it over an Animal domain inquisitor.

Not wanting to play an inquisitor is a good enough reason for me.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just to take on your challenge Mark,

Since you seem to rule out straight hunter, what you have pictured leaves out two possibilities.

Divine Hunter, or Primalist without any visible evolutions active on his companion.

And since he seems to be leading with a melee weapon, I'll guess that he's one of those Outflanking hunters as well, which would lean towards Primalist who will still have those bonus teamwork feats that come in rather handy for that style. Although having a tiger that can smite ain't nothing to sneeze at.

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