Advanced Class Guide Preview: Brawler

Tuesday, July 15, 2014

The monk is a disciplined martial artist who spends years of practice to perfect his body and mind. A lawful paragon, the monk has strange and mysterious ki powers. But sometimes you don't want to play Bruce Lee. Sometimes you want to be Chuck Norris. No rules, no discipline, just a headbutt, a kick in the face, and a sucker punch. Bloody, ugly, but effective. If that's what you want, the Advanced Class Guide has the class you've been waiting for.

From the very first playtest version, the Brawler has also possessed some key features. She had full base attack bonus and rocked the monk's unarmed strike damage. She kept all her abilities in light armor (so appropriately, she is brutal in brawling armor). And she had a unique key feature all her own, martial maneuvers, now with a new name in the final version that better carries the awesomeness of the ability—martial flexibility. Martial flexibility is the brawler's answer for the disciplined abilities that the monk learns from all those years of study and perfection. With her flexible mind and intuitive grasp of close-quarters combat, the brawler has seen pretty much every trick in the book throughout her many bar brawls, arena fights, and adventuring combats. Martial flexibility allows her to spontaneously gain access to just the right combat feat (or later feats!) for her situation. Did someone splash ale in your eyes? Gain Blind-Fight. A spellcaster giving you the blues? Try Disruptive and Spellbreaker, maybe with an added dash of Step-Up. Giant enemy archer? Just take Deflect Arrows and they can kiss their Manyshot goodbye (after which you hit their weak point for massive damage).


Illustration by Ramon Puasa Jr

During the playtest, we were all out on the forums bringing back our data, which revealed a few things. Mainly, we all discovered that martial flexibility was awesome, but the brawler could use some more tricks that she could rely on consistently and that are unique to her. Have you ever wished you could hit that weakling wizard right beneath the jaw in just the right spot to knock him out in one hit? As of the second playtest version, the brawler gained the ability to dish out an instant knockout blow starting at level 13 with a devastating DC based on the brawler's Str or Dex score (your choice!). Furthermore, she gained the ability to use Awesome Blow without being size Large, eventually gaining the ability to dropkick the tarrasque 10 feet, knocking it prone, despite being size Medium.

As of the end of the playtest, the brawler was already awesome, and she seemed to have found a good place, but there were still a few observations from playtesters that led to some tweaks for the final version. First of all, the final brawler can deal increased damage with the close weapon group (growing at a slightly reduced rate from her unarmed damage), letting her brawl with everything at her disposal. Second, the knockout ability appearing at level 13 and then growing to 3 uses per day at level 16 seemed rather late and sudden. So the final version? She can start her instant knockout attacks at level 4! And just wait until you see the frankly mind-boggling feat novas you can pull off with her new capstone!

If standard brawler flavor isn't enough, brawler has some of the most evocative archetypes in the book. Instead of using unarmed strikes, the Exemplar can inspire allies like a bard and teach them teamwork feats. If you want a brawler like Bane who is at her best due to chemical enhancements, the Mutagenic Mauler has your back. And the Shield Champion throws her shield like Captain America. I mean look at that Shield Champion. It seems like she's about to punch you in the face right after the shield hits you and leaves you reeling. How cool is that? And that's only the first half of the archetypes in the book!

So to recap, the brawler is the monk's rowdy cousin, more interested in kicking ass than contemplating koans. The brawler is the Chuck Norris base class, and she's not afraid to get her hands dirty. Are you?

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Tags: Brawler Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ramon Puasa Jr
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Blackvial wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore, she gained the ability to use Awesome Blow without being size Large, eventually gaining the ability to dropkick the tarrasque 10 feet, knocking it prone, despite being size Medium.
Sign me up for this
Assuming you can beat that CMD 66.
wow you are such a downer

Were you around for the playtest? It was pretty much proven that by the time you get awesome blow most of the stuff of appropriate CR from the bestiary would be almost immune to it.


Prince of Knives wrote:
I do wonder if any effort was made to fix Melee Class Problems for the Brawler. I noted those when I ran my tests for it, and it suffered similarly to Monk/Fighter when dealing with them. Magus, Inquisitor, and the more melee-focused Alchemists all found solutions, I'm sure the Brawler's in-your-face, brutal combat style can fit some.

If I recall correctly, these were the tests where they had to face off against about 8-16 enemies at a time, half of which were flying, and one of which was an elder dragon? While all by themselves.


Can't wait to see this. It had already become one of my favorite classes with the second version of the playtest and the reduction in the restrictions on Martial Flexibility (nee Maneuvers).


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Cheapy wrote:
Prince of Knives wrote:
I do wonder if any effort was made to fix Melee Class Problems for the Brawler. I noted those when I ran my tests for it, and it suffered similarly to Monk/Fighter when dealing with them. Magus, Inquisitor, and the more melee-focused Alchemists all found solutions, I'm sure the Brawler's in-your-face, brutal combat style can fit some.
If I recall correctly, these were the tests where they had to face off against about 8-16 enemies at a time, half of which were flying, and one of which was an elder dragon? While all by themselves.

If I remember correctly the purpose of the test was to see how much progress the class could make before death. The Blood Rager, Sometimes the Hunter, (The Arcanist actually beat all the encounters), Slayer, and others had more success with the challenges than the Brawler.

Contributor

I find myself REALLY wanting to know more about the Teamwork archetype that was mentioned for the brawler.


Brawler Preview wrote:
Giant enemy archer? Just take Deflect Arrows and they can kiss their Manyshot goodbye (after which you hit their weak point for massive damage).

Oh?

Did fights like that happen in ancient Golarion history?

In other news, no word on Brawler Strike, but scaling damage for close weapons is nice.

I'm excited for the Mutagen archetype.

Scarab Sages

I do recall Awesome Blow having quite a few issues, including (and I believe Sean noted that he was fixing this) a penalty when used against larger sized creatures that didn't make sense since that's already accounted for in their CMD.

I do know that I agreed with some of the points from both sides; on the one hand, the ability really did have low to impossible odds of success against most CR appropriate challenges out of the Bestiary, but on the other hand, how do you make it competitive against the Tarrasque without making it an auto-success against a smaller BBEG, like a mythic human antipaladin? The fault there lies more with the entire CMB/CMD system, not the Brawler's Awesome Blow ability.


Ssalarn wrote:
I do know that I agreed with some of the points from both sides; on the one hand, the ability really did have low to impossible odds of success against most CR appropriate challenges out of the Bestiary, but on the other hand, how do you make it competitive against the Tarrasque without making it an auto-success against a smaller BBEG, like a mythic human antipaladin? The fault there lies more with the entire CMB/CMD system, not the Brawler's Awesome Blow ability.

I imagine you remove the double dipped bonuses the creature gains to CMD from it's size and the penalty you receive for it being larger and grant a bonus to you based on it's size.

It really wasn't that hard to think up.

EDIT: Through this method, it gives a Level 20 Brawler about a 35% chance before most buffs.


Cheapy wrote:
Prince of Knives wrote:
I do wonder if any effort was made to fix Melee Class Problems for the Brawler. I noted those when I ran my tests for it, and it suffered similarly to Monk/Fighter when dealing with them. Magus, Inquisitor, and the more melee-focused Alchemists all found solutions, I'm sure the Brawler's in-your-face, brutal combat style can fit some.
If I recall correctly, these were the tests where they had to face off against about 8-16 enemies at a time, half of which were flying, and one of which was an elder dragon? While all by themselves.

Not quite. Level 11 Brawler, run against 5 separate CR 11-12 encounters, solo. Brawler was made with solo adventuring in mind and no assumption beforehand of knowing the creatures it would face. Encounters were run twice - once starting fresh each time, once as a gauntlet. They were:

- 16 vampire spawn (yes, that's CR 11) in a twisting crypt, attacking in waves of 4.
- 1 Hezrou in a burning village.
- 4 Erinyes in the cathedral they had defiled.
- 1 Stone Golem in the wizard's lab it was guarding.
- 1 white dragon of the appropriate age category, confronted in its lair.

Environments were a factor. Traps were not used.


MechE_ wrote:
The brawler did not catch my interest during the playtest. I felt that the martial flexibility (as it's called now) was TOO flexible and I was concerned that players could spend minutes per turn (on occasion) trying to find the perfect feat for the current situation. I still have that concern and I suppose it'll just take some getting used to on my end. (Worst case scenario, I'll ask newer players to write down a list of 25 feats and have them ready to go to save time.) But man, that Shield Champion looks awesome - count me as interested now. Good work PDT! (Especially Mark for this blog post!)

That was a mild concern for me as well, I plan on having cards of feats whos prereqs my character meets with the more common ones I want to use on top.


Scavion wrote:
Brawler Preview wrote:
Giant enemy archer? Just take Deflect Arrows and they can kiss their Manyshot goodbye (after which you hit their weak point for massive damage).

Oh?

Did fights like that happen in ancient Golarion history?

In other news, no word on Brawler Strike, but scaling damage for close weapons is nice.

I'm excited for the Mutagen archetype.

Thank god I'm not the only one who thought that.

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore, she gained the ability to use Awesome Blow without being size Large, eventually gaining the ability to dropkick the tarrasque 10 feet, knocking it prone, despite being size Medium.
Sign me up for this
Assuming you can beat that CMD 66.
wow you are such a downer
Were you around for the playtest? It was pretty much proven that by the time you get awesome blow most of the stuff of appropriate CR from the bestiary would be almost immune to it.

Yeah, the playtest had some serious issues with it and when people proposed alternatives or changes, we were, mostly, just straight up told No.

The Brawler's Strike, for instance, had over 70% of the people posting complaining about it ([Edit] I actually counted). Some thought it didn't make sense for to be a Supernatural ability; however most wanted the Brawler wanted a different ability rather than another blatant copy of a Monk ability.

Awesome Blow had numerous issues with it and was, basically, only useful against medium sized humanoids unless the Brawler focused everything he had into it, and even then, only had, if I recall, a 50% chance of succeeding.

That's more of an issue with large sizes giving both bonuses to CMD and bonuses to Strength (which increases CMD), but Awesome Blow didn't help any because it also gave a penalty against large creatures. So the brawler was penalized three times against larger creatures.


Very glad to see the KO ability from 4th level - previous ACG blogposts detailed abilities at upper levels I rarely play and thus do nothing to interest me.

This makes the Brawler much more attractive. And nice to see the Exemplar, though really it sounds more like the Cavalier's Tactician ability mixed with Bard stuff. Like Cheapy's Inspiring Commander for Rite Publishing...


I will go so far as to say, that based off this teaser, a lot of people will probably have fun with this class and find it fun.

I'm too much of a Monk fan to play one though. I really don't like how this class stole so much of it's abilities from the Monk.


Blackvial wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore, she gained the ability to use Awesome Blow without being size Large, eventually gaining the ability to dropkick the tarrasque 10 feet, knocking it prone, despite being size Medium.
Sign me up for this
Assuming you can beat that CMD 66.
wow you are such a downer

You have to be realistic about your expectations. Getting hyped up because someone told you to doesn't really help anyone, you know?

We heard that they get Awesome Blow as a bonus feat (possibly still a limited number of times per day). But they haven't elaborated on why that's a good thing, since as is that's an underwhelming effect you can only use a limited number of times with a very low chance of success.


@Tels - "stole" is a heavy accusation. ;)

I prefer "steps all over the Monk's toes and KO's it. Into next week. Twice."

And I'm ok with that. The Monk can come back and Flurry the Brawler back to last week.

I like 'em both...

Scarab Sages

Scavion wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
I do know that I agreed with some of the points from both sides; on the one hand, the ability really did have low to impossible odds of success against most CR appropriate challenges out of the Bestiary, but on the other hand, how do you make it competitive against the Tarrasque without making it an auto-success against a smaller BBEG, like a mythic human antipaladin? The fault there lies more with the entire CMB/CMD system, not the Brawler's Awesome Blow ability.

I imagine you remove the double dipped bonuses the creature gains to CMD from it's size and the penalty you receive for it being larger and grant a bonus to you based on it's size.

It really wasn't that hard to think up.

EDIT: Through this method, it gives a Level 20 Brawler about a 35% chance before most buffs.

The mechanic isn't necessarily difficult, but I could see there being some issues with the thematics behind the mechanics.

"Why do you hit so much harder when it's bigger?"

"The bigger they are, the harder they fall!"

"Yeah, but seriously, why is the Tarrasque more vulnerable to being knocked on its ass than farmer Joe?"

"Because otherwise it doesn't work."

"..."

Considering how much pushback there was in the playtest thread for this class to be completely non-magical, the options for actually explaining why your proposed mechanics do what they do are a little more restricted, and Paizo seems to try pretty hard for internal logical consistency.


Ssalarn wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
I do know that I agreed with some of the points from both sides; on the one hand, the ability really did have low to impossible odds of success against most CR appropriate challenges out of the Bestiary, but on the other hand, how do you make it competitive against the Tarrasque without making it an auto-success against a smaller BBEG, like a mythic human antipaladin? The fault there lies more with the entire CMB/CMD system, not the Brawler's Awesome Blow ability.

I imagine you remove the double dipped bonuses the creature gains to CMD from it's size and the penalty you receive for it being larger and grant a bonus to you based on it's size.

It really wasn't that hard to think up.

EDIT: Through this method, it gives a Level 20 Brawler about a 35% chance before most buffs.

The mechanic isn't necessarily difficult, but I could see there being some issues with the thematics behind the mechanics.

"Why do you hit so much harder when it's bigger?"

"The bigger they are, the harder they fall!"

"Yeah, but seriously, why is the Tarrasque more vulnerable to being knocked on its ass than farmer Joe?"

"Because otherwise it doesn't work."

"..."

Considering how much pushback there was in the playtest thread for this class to be completely non-magical, the options for actually explaining why your proposed mechanics do what they do are a little more restricted, and Paizo seems to try pretty hard for internal logical consistency.

The best way I saw to fix the ability, was someone mentioning the Brawler gained a scaling bonus on his CMB/CMD as if she were growing in size categories. So at 8th level she was treated as size large (gaining the +1 bonus to CMB and CMD) at 12th level she's treated as Huge, at 16th Gargantuan, and at 20th, Colossal.

Scarab Sages

I like the virtual size categories as well, and it's actually kind of become one of the more common houserule fixes to CMB/CMD in our area. One GM I know ties it into Strength (I think a medium character gets an effective size category at 20, 24, 28, and 32 or something like that), which provides a fairly consistent thematic justification.


I can't wait for this one.


Imo, I see it as an acceptable break in the system to allow an ability to function as intended. The CMB/CMD system is pretty janked.

Farmer Joe isn't gaining Str or Dex erratically with CR and double dipping his size bonus to CMD.

Big stuff is.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I'm still concerned that this class is simply too awesome. Why would anyone play a fighter if you can do more damage with your bare hands as a brawler, and get knockout and martial flexibility also?

Overall, of all of the ACG classes, this one feels to me like it should have bee an archetype for the fighter, and the finished product has the feel that it's too superhero for a non-mythic class.

I'll see what the final version is like, but I'm more concerned about this than the summoner.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So... I can build a character who fights like Riddick now? Color me giddy!


3 people marked this as a favorite.
JoelF847 wrote:
I'm still concerned that this class is simply too awesome. Why would anyone play a fighter [...]

This question right here has sort of been bouncing around for awhile, Joel. Fighter is a class riddled with deep fundamental flaws, part of why so many people are asking for it to be included in Pathfinder Unchained.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
JoelF847 wrote:
I'm still concerned that this class is simply too awesome. Why would anyone play a

FLAVOR!

Because I want to play a guy who is really good with a sword or an ax and not someone who punches.

Maybe I want to play someone who was born into magic and not someone who "hacks" it. Or a warrior that gets really angry but doesn't "hemorrhage magic."

Maybe I like Bruce Lee better than Chuck Norris.

I'm sorry if this comes off as hostile and I'm not trying to start a flame war or derail the thread, but....I just get really tired of reading "why would anyone play X when you can play Z?" in class discussions.

Because flavor. Sometimes it really *is* that simple.


Nate Z wrote:
Because flavor. Sometimes it really *is* that simple.

Flavor can be created, changed and adapted by the player, though.

Character class is not character concept, and character concept is not character class. It's that simple.

Anyway...

I'm not sure what to expect from this class. I feel it's too one-dimensional, and I don't know if its "spontaneous feat" ability scales well and gives him some cool combat versatility or if Brawlers too will be relegated to "stand still, full attack, deal damage" syndrome and be discouraged of trying anything different.

Here is hoping for the best...

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore, she gained the ability to use Awesome Blow without being size Large, eventually gaining the ability to dropkick the tarrasque 10 feet, knocking it prone, despite being size Medium.
Sign me up for this
Assuming you can beat that CMD 66.

Chuck Norris gets to use d1000.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

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I didn't have time to playtest the ACG, but from what I had looked at I wasn't insanely interested in much of it. I'll admit, the previews have gotten me more interested in it.

As far as Brawler vs. Monk...well...full BAB can be negated with lots of Monk AC builds. So really it'll end up being an Awesome Miss vs. Flurry of Miss :)

Until Unchained.


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Mark Seifter, you have convinced me to look at the Brawler and its archetypes once the ACG comes out. While I will be skeptical every step of the way, you have given me some hope.

Gorbacz wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


Sorry to be the gloomy Gus on this one.

It's OK, wake us up when you've got something else to say apart from "My expectations were failed. Again." ;-)

And as for you, stop that. This is a public forum where people can all put in their 2 cents. Do you see me going into threads and saying "Oh wow, all these sheeple. Look at them getting so happy. Come back later when you have some real feedback." Any feedback, especially from people who playtested extensively, should be welcome. Both positive and negative. Who are you to go around telling people with differing opinions to stop posting?


Now we just need a way to make returning a better property so Brawlers aren't carrying their shields on blinkback belts.


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snipesnipesnipe

I'm interested in seeing if the Exemplar is a single class entrant to the Battle Herald. That always was a favorite PrC of mine. Why be better than the rest when you can make everyone awesome?


Woo! Captain Andoran builds!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think the book will have archetypes that give martial flexibility to fighters and monks.

I was always excited about the Brawler, it was much closer to my personal image of a martial artist than the more mystical monk. Awesome blow being useful against humanoid opponents rather than monstrous ones hardly bothered me, but perhaps they've altered it so you can suplex a train in the final version?

Also my character sheet is going to call Martial Flexibility "Blitz".

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

If I can't use a plot hole to instantly teleport to someone and roundhouse kick someone to the face, I'll be very disappointed.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I think the book will have archetypes that give martial flexibility to fighters and monks.

I was always excited about the Brawler, it was much closer to my personal image of a martial artist than the more mystical monk. Awesome blow being useful against humanoid opponents rather than monstrous ones hardly bothered me, but perhaps they've altered it so you can suplex a train in the final version?

Also my character sheet is going to call Martial Flexibility "Blitz".

Suddenly lamenting I didn't name my Mythic Tetori "Sabin".


Azten wrote:
Now we just need a way to make returning a better property so Brawlers aren't carrying their shields on blinkback belts.

Wasn't there a magic item that you could attach to a weapon that allowed it to teleport back to you? I could swear someone mentioned something like this in one of the many 'thrown weapon build' threads.


Wow, gotta admit, in the last playtest the brawler was roughly number 7 in my anticipated list, now its jumped up to my top 3 (after Bloodrager and Slayer), taking the place of the warpriest.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Tels wrote:
Azten wrote:
Now we just need a way to make returning a better property so Brawlers aren't carrying their shields on blinkback belts.
Wasn't there a magic item that you could attach to a weapon that allowed it to teleport back to you? I could swear someone mentioned something like this in one of the many 'thrown weapon build' threads.

I think that's the blinkback belt he's referring to.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Dustin Ashe wrote:
minoritarian wrote:
Did the Knowledge skills get changed at all? I still think knowledge (history) was a super weird choice and they didn't get (local)

Chuck Norris makes history. With his fists. Every day.

Doesn't get local, because he's the only thing standing in 100,000 miles.

You sir... just won the internet for today...


Nate Z wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:
I'm still concerned that this class is simply too awesome. Why would anyone play a

FLAVOR!

Because I want to play a guy who is really good with a sword or an ax and not someone who punches.

Maybe I want to play someone who was born into magic and not someone who "hacks" it. Or a warrior that gets really angry but doesn't "hemorrhage magic."

Maybe I like Bruce Lee better than Chuck Norris.

I'm sorry if this comes off as hostile and I'm not trying to start a flame war or derail the thread, but....I just get really tired of reading "why would anyone play X when you can play Z?" in class discussions.

Because flavor. Sometimes it really *is* that simple.

Um... For all intents and purposes, the Brawler could run aroudn with an Ax or sword... nothing is stopping him.. He just loses his unarmed damage...


I do have to say... I will give the fighter this, he can make a REALLY nasty trip master build with Lore Warden... just saying. He does have a niche... a small one.. but it is there lol

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