Secondary Success Conditions

Very great and awesome job John and the volunteers, now i understand how the 5th season prestige works!!

Thanks for all!!

Love it!

So now what happens to boons that would let you get back a lost prestige point from a failed faction mission ?

First off +1 to both Mike and Jeff's posts above

Kind I just clarify the intent is no primary goal achieved is no prestige even if the players or a player meets a secondary goal. That seems to be the implication of additional prestige on the secondary but someone is going to argue 'you can add to zero' and I want this to be clearly consistent.

I hope its not even be possible but with 126 examples the likely hood of a corner case cropping up is good and for something as important as prestige a clear ruling would be helpful.

Hey there Merisal,

First off, thanks for interest in looking to better understand how the new secondary success missions will work for players as well as GM's. For these corner cases where the PC's would achieve a secondary mission but NOT the primary mission, I "believe" they would still get 1 prestige point.

Here is my logic behind this, using John's example above:

#4–117: All the Doors are Trapped

Primary: The PCs successfully escape the dungeon.
Secondary: The PCs trigger and are damaged by no more than two of the traps in the scenario.

Let's say the PC's enter into the dungeon and trigger the first trap, a scythe trap, that was installed on one of the doors. The party is pretty beat up, but continue to trudge through the dungeon unknowingly to their deaths. However, when they encounter the second trap, a reaper door trap, the party doesn't fare too well and the party is killed.

In this case, the Venture-Captain is going to need to re-evaluate their standards on the quality of Pathfinders they send into a known trapped dungeon, but more importantly, the PC's would NOT gain the primary success condition because they did not "successfully escape the dungeon". However, I would award the PC's a single prestige point because they did meet the secondary goal; Only triggering 2 or less traps in the dungeon.

These are only my thoughts on the matter, I could be completely wrong and spewing nonsense, but I thought I would share my logic.

So now what happens to boons that would let you get back a lost prestige point from a failed faction mission ?

Mornin' BigNorseWolf (or at least it is here, anyway),

I don't think these would be any different than before the secondary success conditions were released. If there would be a scenario where you were to fail to receive both prestige points (or in the case of modules, 4 prestige points), your boons would still work the same way. Show your GM that you would like to use your boon to gain that lost prestige point, and if everything checks out, they will mark it as used and change your prestige points earned total on your chronicle sheet.

Ran a game last night and had an interesting twist on secondary missions develope.

The players, knowing that they have to do SOMETHING as a secondary mission, but not knowing WHAT tried to do EVERYTHING possible. Kill a monster? "Hay guys, we study stuff right? maybe we should gather up the dead XXX and bring the bodies back for study." Check out a room, "Maybe we should take samples of the mushrooms growing on the walls...". Next room, "Can I make a knowledge nature check on the white powder in the cracks of floor? Got a 19 - did that get me anything? Better take a sample anyway...". Next room, "Take a rubbing of the clue carved on the wall, just in case."

This did two things. One good, one bad.

The Good: It felt a little like a team of "archaeologists and experts" doing a dig. (Trying to "think like Pathfinders").

The Bad: It was as slow and tedius as a team of "archaeologists and experts" doing a dig. (and fostered a lot of table talk and meta-gaming).

A side note: they got the secondary mission without a problem - and did this before finishing the main mission. In fact, they almost didn't take the "leap of faith" needed to do the final encounter (and the main mission) - pointing out that "no one in their right mind would jump into this without knowing what's on the other side". In other words, they could have finished with the secondary mission finished, and not the main one.

Thanks John and help, GREAT job!!

The Fourth Horseman- I would like to point out that this is how all of the season 5 scenarios work. I have run all 3 several times and my groups got both pp. Everyone is far to used to getting every PP when you are NOT SUPPOSED TO and to be honest the secondary success conditions are not designed to be stumbled upon, should be secret, and have been extremely well implemented and these will as well. If you are upset by these then you have obviously not played season 5 scenarios yet.

Honestly, I love that these are 'secret' missions. It encourages exploration, thoughtful expeditions, and cooperation.

My only concern now is that there isn't really a distinction of faction. I realize that before the only thing that really told you are apart, faction-wise, were the faction missions. But now that is gone so Im wondering what do we have as players to differentiate ourselves (factions)?

My only concern now is that there isn't really a distinction of faction. I realize that before the only thing that really told you are apart, faction-wise, were the faction missions. But now that is gone so Im wondering what do we have as players to differentiate ourselves (factions)?

I have a few ideas of how to address this, some better than others. The quick answer would be to still enjoy the faction mission handouts for fun, but that fails to address a) that some players are primarily motivated to perform faction-related goals when there's a reward, and b) that GMs are no longer expected to print out and hand out those faction mission handouts, so to rely too heavily on this stance would just be undoing what has been done.

One other avenue to explore will involve some more development time on my end. That will have to wait, as there are still other projects that people are eagerly anticipating (e.g. AP sanctioning).

So, I have to say, I am of two minds on this document.

On the one hand, great job. I know it must have taken forever to go through every old scenario and write these. It will definitely make older scenarios feel more complete with Season 5 rules.

On the other hand, I feel that there's this huge disparity in difficulty levels between scenarios. Most of them are things you would do anyway. Others are extremely, extremely difficult and require the team to go a bit out of their way.

A few examples:

While I agree that these should be somewhat difficult, I feel that there should be some uniformity. Having some of the scenarios as giveaways and others as extremely difficult doesn't make a lot of sense.

1) Thanks.

2) Good job.

3) I feel a little sad about some of these. They reward one particular style of play that otherwise wouldn't necessarily be exceptional.

Let me give you an example. This is the first one that lept out to me, and I found others, looking through the list.

I understand that not every group is going to earn every prestige point. But there are several of these conditions that punish good role-play and clever problem-solving.

In the only one of Netopalis's examples that I had run already and thus could read without spoilers, The Silken Caravan, the secondard success actually is directly contrary to one of the faction missions. If you hand them out for "fun and flavor" and the Quadira player actually follows it, he will literally eliminate the prestige point, to quote his faction letter: "with extreme prejudice".

1) Thanks.

2) Good job.

3) I feel a little sad about some of these. They reward one particular style of play that otherwise wouldn't necessarily be exceptional.

Let me give you an example. This is the first one that lept out to me, and I found others, looking through the list.

** spoiler omitted **

I understand that not every group is going to earn every prestige point. But there are several of these conditions that punish good role-play and clever problem-solving.

Chris, I think something like this would fall under "Reward Creative Solutions." If a player completely circumvents the need to maintain the ruse, then they've "beaten the encounter" in an unexpected way, and should be rewarded just as if they'd done it according to the plan.

So, I have to say, I am of two minds on this document.

On the one hand, great job. I know it must have taken forever to go through every old scenario and write these. It will definitely make older scenarios feel more complete with Season 5 rules.

On the other hand, I feel that there's this huge disparity in difficulty levels between scenarios. Most of them are things you would do anyway. Others are extremely, extremely difficult and require the team to go a bit out of their way.

**Spoilers**

While I agree that these should be somewhat difficult, I feel that there should be some uniformity. Having some of the scenarios as giveaways and others as extremely difficult doesn't make a lot of sense.

I agree that not every secondary success condition has been made equal, though I did what I could to follow a few guidelines (borrow from what is already in the scenario, name specific goals as opposed to general, hard to adjudicate, "go by feel" standards, etc.). Murder on the Silken Caravan is certainly a tricky one, and in this case it's based off of information included directly into the scenario (specifically the first option).

One nice thing about including all of these success conditions in one document that must be downloaded is that it makes it easier both to update the document and to alert people when there has been a change. As I look at Prestige Points earned from now until [indefinite future date], I will have a better idea as to whether certain SSCs need revision. It may be that a few secondary success conditions will need to go a bit against what the scenario already says for successful implementation.

We shall see.

In the only one of Netopalis's examples that I had run already and thus could read without spoilers, The Silken Caravan, the secondard success actually is directly contrary to one of the faction missions. If you hand them out for "fun and flavor" and the Quadira player actually follows it, he will literally eliminate the prestige point, to quote his faction letter: "with extreme prejudice".

Interesting! I'll look into this more when I get to work, but my spit-ball idea would be that if a PC accepts a faction mission in a Season 0-4 scenario, and completing that mission's goal would directly contradict a secondary success condition, the successful completion of the faction mission would fulfill the contradicted portion. That is to say, a secondary success condition that is three parts might only have one piece replaced.

In the only one of Netopalis's examples that I had run already and thus could read without spoilers, The Silken Caravan, the secondard success actually is directly contrary to one of the faction missions. If you hand them out for "fun and flavor" and the Quadira player actually follows it, he will literally eliminate the prestige point, to quote his faction letter: "with extreme prejudice".

That is also true for The Misfortunes of Grandmaster Torch, re: the Taldan faction mission. However, having read the new goals, it makes this scenario one that is much less "murder hobos" and more "Pathfinders".

Greasitty wrote:

In the only one of Netopalis's examples that I had run already and thus could read without spoilers, The Silken Caravan, the secondard success actually is directly contrary to one of the faction missions. If you hand them out for "fun and flavor" and the Quadira player actually follows it, he will literally eliminate the prestige point, to quote his faction letter: "with extreme prejudice".

That is also true for The Misfortunes of Grandmaster Torch, re: the Taldan faction mission. However, having read the new goals, it makes this scenario one that is much less "murder hobos" and more "Pathfinders".

Only insofar as a single drop of food coloring in the Atlantic Ocean would make it more red.

Ran a game last night and had an interesting twist on secondary missions develope.

The players, knowing that they have to do SOMETHING as a secondary mission, but not knowing WHAT tried to do EVERYTHING possible. Kill a monster? "Hay guys, we study stuff right? maybe we should gather up the dead XXX and bring the bodies back for study." Check out a room, "Maybe we should take samples of the mushrooms growing on the walls...". Next room, "Can I make a knowledge nature check on the white powder in the cracks of floor? Got a 19 - did that get me anything? Better take a sample anyway...". Next room, "Take a rubbing of the clue carved on the wall, just in case."

This did two things. One good, one bad.

The Good: It felt a little like a team of "archaeologists and experts" doing a dig. (Trying to "think like Pathfinders").

The Bad: It was as slow and tedius as a team of "archaeologists and experts" doing a dig. (and fostered a lot of table talk and meta-gaming).

Ok, so to be clear, but the scenario did not give good info/hints on what the secondary mission entailed? It basically turned into the players doing everything they could think of?

This is what I have been concerned about, to be honest. I am all for exploration, but we are also on a limited amount of time sometimes and just can't be as thorough as we would like. Besides the fact, I just like some guidance with our secondary mission and not just guessing blindly what may need to be done.

This may have just been a unique case to this scenario and hopefully most give some more obvious info on what may need to be done, but it does give some concern.

It'll take a little while, but players will eventually relax into this a bit. It is usually fairly obvious when something is good for the society. If you try to make good things happen for the Society, then you'll do well. If you act in a heroic manner, then you'll do well.

I had a player comment that his pretty murderous barbarian would have issues getting a lot of prestige points. I mentioned to him that a pretty murderous barbarian would be the type of character that would have issues belonging in an organized group like the Pathfinder Society.

The "murder hobos" meme was kinda funny for a while, but getting kinda tired of it now. Glad we are moving away from that.

Chris, I think something like this would fall under "Reward Creative Solutions." If a player completely circumvents the need to maintain the ruse, then they've "beaten the encounter" in an unexpected way, and should be rewarded just as if they'd done it according to the plan.

I don't believe this mechanic has a "reward creative solutions," RDN. If GMs do start handing out prestige for "creative furtherance of Pathfinder Society or faction goals" then that rests one concern, but I foresee a tremendous amount of table variation.

RainyDayNinja wrote:

Chris, I think something like this would fall under "Reward Creative Solutions." If a player completely circumvents the need to maintain the ruse, then they've "beaten the encounter" in an unexpected way, and should be rewarded just as if they'd done it according to the plan.

I don't believe this mechanic has a "reward creative solutions," RDN. If GMs do start handing out prestige for "creative furtherance of Pathfinder Society or faction goals" then that rests one concern, but I foresee a tremendous amount of table variation.

I don't think it's even a question--by my reading, you would obviously get the second point.

This is one reason why a lot of the goals gave a rationale for why they were worth a second prestige point.

Reading this list, just let me re iterate how good of a cantrip stabilize is? In order to fix "they're dead!" you need 5,000 gp worth of diamonds. In order to fix "they're alive" you need a 5 silver piece dagger.

It'll take a little while, but players will eventually relax into this a bit. It is usually fairly obvious when something is good for the society. If you try to make good things happen for the Society, then you'll do well. If you act in a heroic manner, then you'll do well.

Uh, PFS is NOT heroic. If things have changed so that pathfinders are NOW EXPECTED to be heroic then the nerd rage should be massive. And at least partially deserved.

Reading this list, just let me re iterate how good of a cantrip stabilize is? In order to fix "they're dead!" you neek 5,000 gp worth of diamonds. In order to fix "they're alive" you need a 5 silver piece dagger.

5sp dagger? Where are you getting that? I prefer to go the quality route, and buy from the dwarves. You must have sided with the Kalistocrats. :P

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Reading this list, just let me re iterate how good of a cantrip stabilize is? In order to fix "they're dead!" you neek 5,000 gp worth of diamonds. In order to fix "they're alive" you need a 5 silver piece dagger.

5sp dagger? Where are you getting that? I prefer to go the quality route, and buy from the dwarves. You must have sided with the Kalistocrats. :P

Quantity has a quality all its own.

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

It'll take a little while, but players will eventually relax into this a bit. It is usually fairly obvious when something is good for the society. If you try to make good things happen for the Society, then you'll do well. If you act in a heroic manner, then you'll do well.

Uh, PFS is NOT heroic. If things have changed so that pathfinders are NOW EXPECTED to be heroic then the nerd rage should be massive. And at least partially deserved.

Acts of heroism tend to earn the society a good name, which makes it easier for it to do business with particular groups in the future. The Pathfinder Society as an organization does not often actively promote acts of heroism, but it appreciates the positive kickback it receives when its members are heroic and make a good impression. Erring on the side of heroism also tends to soil the society's reputation less than being outright dastardly. A tarnished reputation can lead to the society being banned from a country or region, so good-aligned actions by individual agents tends to earn an approving nod so long as said actions did not compromise the main mission.

Ambrus Valsin: Welcome back, Pathfinders. Did you recover the Urn of Infinite Plot Devices?
Pathfinder: Um, well, there was this orphanage that was on fire...
Ambrus Valsin: So you ran into it to grab the urn?
Pathfinder: And there was a cart speeding off with the villains and the urn.
Ambrus Valsin: Hmmm...terrible to hear about the orphanage burning down. This is a tough business. Don't take the loss too hard.
Pathfinder: Actually, we saved the orphanage.
Ambrus Valsin: ...after which you retrieved the urn, right?
Pathfinder: Actually, no. We sorta lost the urn.
Ambrus Valsin: *Sigh*
Pathfinder: On the plus side, the local sheriff thinks we're real swell!
Ambrus Valsin: *Sigh*

If the PCs had managed to save the orphanage and grab the urn, Ambrus Valsin would probably be thrilled by their extraordinary success. That said, I don't think any missions actually involve saving a burning orphanage—at least not one that the PCs didn't go out of their way to burn. If the PCs saved the urn but did so only by setting the town on fire, that would be rather distressing to Valsin and other society leaders because they would have to mobilize damage control in the form of reparations, public relations initiatives, etc.

If you've taken a look at Season 5, you'll likely see that I support the Pathfinders accomplishing their missions in a variety of ways that span the breadth of moral ambiguity.

at least not one that the PCs didn't go out of their way to burn

Is it possible to have an orphanage without the PCs going out of their way to burn it?

Can I request that this document be categorized under "Paizo Publishing, LLC: Free Products" in the Downloads page, where the GtOP is? Right now it's showing up in the Season 4 Scenarios category, which is not at all where I expected to find it.

Looks like I forgot to click a button there. The document should show up in your My Downloads page under "Free Products." When browsing products on the store, it will appear under the previous seasons for reference. :)

John Compton wrote:

at least not one that the PCs didn't go out of their way to burn

Is it possible to have an orphanage without the PCs going out of their way to burn it?

If an orphanage shows up in a Society adventure, everyone knows that all of the orphans will actually be succubi in disguise.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

John Compton wrote:

at least not one that the PCs didn't go out of their way to burn

Is it possible to have an orphanage without the PCs going out of their way to burn it?

If an orphanage shows up in a Society adventure, everyone knows that all of the orphans will actually be succubi in disguise.

The very First Steps I: In service to Lore, has one. The memories of all those times i run it, and all those chieldren and cats maimed are still burning in my mind's eye.

nosig wrote:

Ran a game last night and had an interesting twist on secondary missions develope.

The players, knowing that they have to do SOMETHING as a secondary mission, but not knowing WHAT tried to do EVERYTHING possible. Kill a monster? "Hay guys, we study stuff right? maybe we should gather up the dead XXX and bring the bodies back for study." Check out a room, "Maybe we should take samples of the mushrooms growing on the walls...". Next room, "Can I make a knowledge nature check on the white powder in the cracks of floor? Got a 19 - did that get me anything? Better take a sample anyway...". Next room, "Take a rubbing of the clue carved on the wall, just in case."

This did two things. One good, one bad.

The Good: It felt a little like a team of "archaeologists and experts" doing a dig. (Trying to "think like Pathfinders").

The Bad: It was as slow and tedius as a team of "archaeologists and experts" doing a dig. (and fostered a lot of table talk and meta-gaming).

Ok, so to be clear, but the scenario did not give good info/hints on what the secondary mission entailed? It basically turned into the players doing everything they could think of?

This is what I have been concerned about, to be honest. I am all for exploration, but we are also on a limited amount of time sometimes and just can't be as thorough as we would like. Besides the fact, I just like some guidance with our secondary mission and not just guessing blindly what may need to be done.

This may have just been a unique case to this scenario and hopefully most give some more obvious info on what may need to be done, but it does give some concern.

That's a fair point. I'm hoping that what evolves is that the GM will tell the players when a secondary objective has been achieved, so they can stop packing up corpses "for study" and digging around under floorboards in every room of the mansion.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

John Compton wrote:

at least not one that the PCs didn't go out of their way to burn

Is it possible to have an orphanage without the PCs going out of their way to burn it?

If an orphanage shows up in a Society adventure, everyone knows that all of the orphans will actually be succubi in disguise.

Hey, if they're taking requests, I'd like to see a statue that DOESN'T come to life. I know it would stun every player in our online games....

The very First Steps I: In service to Lore, has one. The memories of all those times i run it, and all those chieldren and cats maimed are still burning in my mind's eye.

Just ran this recently, and the Halfling Rogue decided to hunt down one particular cat. They duked it out under the orphanage away from the party, and the cat dealt 5 non-lethal damage to the PC before she dropped it. The Barbarian then gave a speech to the orphans about how hunting cats can solve their hunger. We were dying of laughter.

There's also an orphanage in 5-00.

I'm also not a fan of my tables spending half the session fumbling in the dark looking for the secondary objective.

The "murder hobos" meme was kinda funny for a while, but getting kinda tired of it now. Glad we are moving away from that.

A bit optimistic there. I've played a couple of the season 5 scenarios and at least one amounted to let no man (or monster) escape with their life.

starchildren3317 wrote:

My only concern now is ... what do we have as players to differentiate ourselves (factions)?

I have a few ideas of how to address this, some better than others. The quick answer would be to still enjoy the faction mission handouts for fun, but that fails to address a) that some players are primarily motivated to perform faction-related goals when there's a reward, and b) that GMs are no longer expected to print out and hand out those faction mission handouts, so to rely too heavily on this stance would just be undoing what has been done.

Locally, A has not been a problem. Most players are still having a blast with their faction missions, PP related or not (maybe more now).

Jeff Mahood wrote:

Can I request that this document be categorized under "Paizo Publishing, LLC: Free Products" in the Downloads page, where the GtOP is? Right now it's showing up in the Season 4 Scenarios category, which is not at all where I expected to find it.

Looks like I forgot to click a button there. The document should show up in your My Downloads page under "Free Products." When browsing products on the store, it will appear under the previous seasons for reference. :)

Huzzah! Three cheers for Chris and her quick solutions!

On topic:

If players are spending half a session time stumbling around doing everything possible that might possibly award them the second prestige point, then they're doing it wrong. Generally speaking, clues to the optional objective are in the VC briefing, and if they're thinking about the justification for that briefing and not just creating a mental tickbox of what needs to be done for the first PP, the second will get done along the way.

I know people are going to get frustrated by this. John and the Campaign Management are trying to stimulate a cultural shift here, and not subtly - this is a major change to the way PP work, and will therefore rustle some feathers. However, once again, we're seeing a few vocal posters complaining within six weeks of the change. Give it a chance, see how it works, and then if you still don't like it after it's been in place for a while, offer suggestions. But at least give players a few months to figure out which way is up before kneejerk posting.

The secondary success mission should be spelled out just like the primary one in the vc briefing. Only makes sense. It's just like being in the military.

The secondary success mission should be spelled out just like the primary one in the vc briefing. Only makes sense. It's just like being in the military.

Sometimes it really couldn't be, as the Venture Captain doesn't know.

To make another hypothetical example.

5-666 The Devil's in the Details

Let's say in this scenario, Ambrus Valsin asks the PCs to head to the Temple of the Vudrani Snake God of Slashing Blades in order to find the rare magical coffee beans cultivated in that temple. What the Society doesn't know is that the Aspis Consortium found the temple first, thanks to the letters from a mole in the Pathfinder Society, and they bound some devils to send them ahead to trigger the traps. The devils rebelled and killed the Aspis agents and are now in control of the temple.

Primary: Retrieve the magical coffee beans for Ambrus Valsin

Secondary: Discover the existence of a mole in the Society by locating the body of Aspis Gold Agent Eve Ilgurl and breaking the cipher on her letters from the mole.

----

So in this case, Ambrus Valsin obviously wants that information from the secondary mission (potentially even more than the magic coffee beans), but he doesn't know about it until the resourceful Pathfinders bring it to his attention

The secondary success mission should be spelled out just like the primary one in the vc briefing. Only makes sense. It's just like being in the military.

I have never been, nor will I ever be, in the military, but I have trouble imagining that a military unit is unable to make judgment calls about completing a mission better than their orders explicitly state.

joe kirner wrote:

The secondary success mission should be spelled out just like the primary one in the vc briefing. Only makes sense. It's just like being in the military.

I have never been, nor will I ever be, in the military, but I have trouble imagining that a military unit is unable to make judgment calls about completing a mission better than their orders explicitly state.

I have been in the military - and can say that it's a mixed bag. A look at history would show us this even more.

Some times the "boots on the ground" go above and beyond the orders... and sometimes they don't.

Good thing the PFS is not the Military, and more like the Smithsonian institute

I have often described the Pathfinder society as a "fantasy / medieval " version of the National Geographic Society. Indiana Jones= pathfinder agent.........Belloc= Aspis consortium agent.

Jeff Mahood wrote:

joe kirner wrote:

The secondary success mission should be spelled out just like the primary one in the vc briefing. Only makes sense. It's just like being in the military.

I have never been, nor will I ever be, in the military, but I have trouble imagining that a military unit is unable to make judgment calls about completing a mission better than their orders explicitly state.

I have been in the military - and can say that it's a mixed bag. A look at history would show us this even more.

Some times the "boots on the ground" go above and beyond the orders... and sometimes they don't.

And typically and historically (especially for in field promotions) promotions were given to those who showed initiative and an ability to go above and beyond.

But its more than that. This is about Fame. It is a mechanic that seems to have been interpreted, "VC said I'd get a prestige point if I find this artifact." When in actuality the VC said, "Go find this artifact." Fame is not doled out by the VC or faction heads of seasons past. It is earned by doing a good job and then getting the public kudos from your superiors.

In this case campaign management is emphasizing what being a good pathfinder is. If you show an inclination for going above and beyond your orders for the greater glory of the society, those public kudos become more prevalent and you become more famous as a pathfinder.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with hidden objectives; I do have a problem if no reasonable Pathfinder would complete the objective or think that it was a good thing to do. For example, with Fortress of the Nail, given the mission briefing it's rather questionable whether doing what the secondary success objective is would be supported by a VC. There would likely be some disagreement.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with hidden objectives; I do have a problem if no reasonable Pathfinder would complete the objective or think that it was a good thing to do. For example, with Fortress of the Nail, given the mission briefing it's rather questionable whether doing what the secondary success objective is would be supported by a VC. There would likely be some disagreement.

** spoiler omitted **

Well, that's a good way to look at it, RE. I can't really argue with that.

I have often described the Pathfinder society as a "fantasy / medieval " version of the National Geographic Society.

who is publishing the PFS Gazette? We need to get our successes out to the society in general so we can get that 2nd PA.