A Truly Epic Challenge

I agree Selene. It's the same situation for Bonekeep. If it was my home game, where everyone knows the capabilities of each other and trusts them with their back, it'd be great. If you're meeting your squad for the first time... then taking on a Runelord... there will be blood. And it won't be coming from the Runelord.

Zandari wrote:

Will there be a hard mode at each tier?

Yes, the notes for scaling up apply to both Subtiers.

Of course, this has to come out AFTER I stopped min-maxing the bejeebers out of my PCs. After the near death experience of Zeffan-the-woefully-not-combat-oriented-bard in Words of the Ancients, I can only imagine the terror she will have in her heart after this bidness.

I think some sort of reward should be made for "hard modes." Lets look at the options:

1) More Gold - Problematic as it makes characters more powerful and then there's no longer an extra challenge.

2) Special Boons - Similar to above, but not as impactful... except that if the boons are on a per scenario basis, you will find players will start cherry-picking which ones to play "hard mode" and which ones to play "normal."

3) Special Player Star Rating or Message Board Titles - I really like this idea as it only gives bragging rights, but I still think there should be something mechanical that players get.

4) Extra Fame/Prestige - Since the players are risking more (player death, curses, ability drain), they're more likely to be spending PP on raise dead, remove curse, and restorations. I would give them another 1 or even 2 Prestige for completing a hard mode. This won't fully make up for all the times they have to raise dead, but it will help a bit.

If I were Emperor of PFS, I would implement #3 and #4. I think this gives bragging rights while giving everyone an even playing field. That being said, I'm looking forward to trying the "hard mode."

I think some sort of reward should be made for "hard modes."

No! A GM writing 'completed on hard mode' is enough for bragging rights.

I still think there should be something mechanical that players get.

Why?

Andrew Hoskins wrote:

I think some sort of reward should be made for "hard modes."

No! A GM writing 'completed on hard mode' is enough for bragging rights.

While that would suffice for bragging rights, having a forum tag or some such would be rocking cool.

I personally would like to avoid mechanical benefits. If anything at all, perhaps it may add minor but mounting circumstance bonuses to social rolls when dealing with other Pathfinders because of your fearsome reputation.

I can't think of a more appropriate scenario for this. Thanks John!

And No Rewards! You can't brag if there's a prize for it.

Andrew Hoskins wrote:

I think some sort of reward should be made for "hard modes."

No! A GM writing 'completed on hard mode' is enough for bragging rights.

Agreed. I can see the argument for something on the forum, too. But anything mechanical will just caused increased munchkinism. I am definitely opposed to any gold, prestige, boon, or any other reward.

They could get a title to use with the characters name in-character. Like the ones you can buy with prestige from various factions. It does not need to have any mechanical benefit. Just bragging rights.

I for myself am not interested in hard mode, the challenge level of season four is enough for me as it is.

Love it!

Hopefully this means all the end-boss encounters gets to take their turn on initiative!

I wouldn't be opposed to a special reward for characters that play repeated scenarios on "hard mode" - nothing big like extra gold or power boons - which will kind of defeats the purpose since high wealth makes adventures easier.

I am a fan of the idea that a character can earn "gold stars" or "platinum coins" or "grinning skulls" or some form of currency which can be redeemed for something.

Perhaps it's something very simple like 5 "coins" can be used for a raise dead in lieu of spending prestige for such.

Or... *drumroll* each previously earned star/coin can be used in the same manner as a hero point (per hero point rules), but only when playing in a "hard mode" scenario (along with the rule that these cap at a max of 3 per character at any one time)

I wouldn't be opposed to a special reward for characters that play repeated scenarios on "hard mode"

I would!

As far as I can tell, this option has been introduced because some people who practice superior table tactics or character optimisation skills find the standard mode too easy, and wanted a greater challenge. Now as soon as this challenge has been introduced as requested, people are suggesting ways they should be rewarded for using it...

Experiencing 'hard mode' IS the reward!

I am fully in favor of things that give me a reason to climb up on furniture and yell 'BEST IN THE WORLD' after I complete them

wakedown wrote:

I wouldn't be opposed to a special reward for characters that play repeated scenarios on "hard mode"

I would!

As far as I can tell, this option has been introduced because some people who practice superior table tactics or character optimisation skills find the standard mode too easy, and wanted a greater challenge. Now as soon as this challenge has been introduced as requested, people are suggesting ways they should be rewarded for using it...

Experiencing 'hard mode' IS the reward!

Completely agreed!

Anything that lets me sing "We are the Champions" afterwards OOC is enough of a reward for me. Any kind of mechanical benefit would simply lead to the same problem playing up in some areas is having now.

TOZ has finally tasted first blood. TOZ is eager to run hard mode to slake his new bloodthirst.

I am fully in favor of things that give me a reason to climb up on furniture and yell 'BEST IN THE WORLD' after I complete them.

Anything that lets me sing "We are the Champions" afterwards OOC is enough of a reward for me. Any kind of mechanical benefit would simply lead to the same problem playing up in some areas is having now.

This should make for a most interesting PaizoCon.

I am 100% in favor GMs writing something special on the Chronicle sheets of those who beat #4–26 on "hard mode." Maybe I'll invest in a page of gold star stickers to place on the Chronicle sheets when this happens.

Lamontius wrote:

I am fully in favor of things that give me a reason to climb up on furniture and yell 'BEST IN THE WORLD' after I complete them.

El Baron de los Banditos wrote:

Anything that lets me sing "We are the Champions" afterwards OOC is enough of a reward for me. Any kind of mechanical benefit would simply lead to the same problem playing up in some areas is having now.

This should make for a most interesting PaizoCon.

I am 100% in favor GMs writing something special on the Chronicle sheets of those who beat #4–26 on "hard mode." Maybe I'll invest in a page of gold star stickers to place on the Chronicle sheets when this happens.

Do you get the gold star if you just play on "hard mode", or do you have not complete it with out dying?

Heheheh

Nathan Meyers
NYC PFS GM/Player

TwoWolves wrote:

Please please please add a "gold star" or some other useless token to the chronicle sheet for those opting for completing this on hard mode. Later on, PFS leadership can create a boon to give some value for a character with multiple such tokens.

Please don't.

I think the purpose of this is to answer the 'I play up for the challenge' people who actually play up for the wealth. Our resident Optimizers, for example I actually would expect to 'play up'.*

To offer tokens/rewards/chipmunks for taking hard mode, simply perpetuates the problem.

*** spoiler omitted **

I'm up for the challenge and definitely will play hard mode on my optimized wizard.

So if the GM for the Saturday Morning Slot at Paizocon is reading this.

I'm up for the challenge.

FOR ALAZNIST, RUNELORD OF WRATH!!!!!

Matthew Morris wrote:

TwoWolves wrote:

Please please please add a "gold star" or some other useless token to the chronicle sheet for those opting for completing this on hard mode. Later on, PFS leadership can create a boon to give some value for a character with multiple such tokens.

Please don't.

I think the purpose of this is to answer the 'I play up for the challenge' people who actually play up for the wealth. Our resident Optimizers, for example I actually would expect to 'play up'.*

To offer tokens/rewards/chipmunks for taking hard mode, simply perpetuates the problem.

*** spoiler omitted **

I'm up for the challenge and definitely will play hard mode on my optimized wizard.

So if the GM for the Saturday Morning Slot at Paizocon is reading this.

I'm up for the challenge.

FOR ALAZNIST, RUNELORD OF WRATH!!!!!

Good Luck June!

Hope you get a Gold Star!

Nathan Meyers
NYC PFS GM/Player

I've been thinking about this since it was posted last night. I think it's probably held in reserve for special scenarios or ones particularly apt for the option. Otherwise I think this will encourage over-optimizing, even without a reward.

Do you get the gold star if you just play on "hard mode", or do you have not complete it with out dying?

Heheheh

they give the gold star to your character's next of kin at their funeral

I hopefully will ask the GM to write something on my chronicle like its done in BAPS!

something like "I did it all for Alaznist"

LOL

Just so I'm totally clear where I stand, in case someone's taking notes... :)

I'm absolutely on the side of the fence that hard mode should not lead to more loot.

Now, without actually seeing how hard this hard mode is... I can see hard mode being one of two things:

a) For 4-players in a Season 4 scenario, they just play the 6-player version. 6-players on "hard mode" see a similar bump in challenge.

If this is the case, then I'm totally on board that absolutely nothing mechanical should be gained... but I'd still love gold stars or something, you know people love to collect even intangible things, right? :)

.. or ..

b) Certain fights get opened up for very deadly mechanics that will all but guarantee kills for even the most optimized groups (say, giving that evil cleric in the 4-5 subtier a scroll of Slay Living to read).

Now if this is the case, I'm not opposed to something in a hard mode scenario that helps folks dodge certain death.

Perhaps in said example scenario where a subtier 4-5 cleric uses a Slay Living scroll, hard mode adjusts a footlocker so that instead of having 50 gold bars worth 100gp each, there's instead a handy Raise Dead scroll. Thus PCs leave the adventure with no lasting advantage, but there is some measure of damage control to enable the scenario writers to do very evil, malicious things...

Very nice idea! I can't wait to see how many of my groups actually "Play up...up!"

Hmm, I expect it will happen. Playing up and then choosing hard mode. That sounds like a scenario that will not overrun...

I was kind of expecting the end encounter to be CR+1 from the normal max in any case. This actually sounds like it will only be hard mode that does this.

I expect if the GM has played a PC who is the same class as the Runelord you are on hard mode without the boost and toast with it.

Phillip Willis wrote:

Very nice idea! I can't wait to see how many of my groups actually "Play up...up!"

Hmm, I expect it will happen. Playing up and then choosing hard mode. That sounds like a scenario that will not overrun...

I was kind of expecting the end encounter to be CR+1 from the normal max in any case. This actually sounds like it will only be hard mode that does this.

I expect if the GM has played a PC who is the same class as the Runelord you are on hard mode without the boost and toast with it.

Well it depends on the listed tactics. For example--

Do you get the gold star if you just play on "hard mode", or do you have not complete it with out dying?

If I were GMing, I'd give gold stars to the PCs who survived, and red stars for effort to those who didn't make it.

Natertot wrote:

Do you get the gold star if you just play on "hard mode", or do you have not complete it with out dying?

If I were GMing, I'd give gold stars to the PCs who survived, and red stars for effort to those who didn't make it.

I don't think I'd have to purchase any gold stars for my tables.

I like this

I do not need anything extra on the chronicle sheet

but I will go out there, play that scenario and get my damn trophy

Okay so I designed B&W stickers for those folks who go on hard mode.

I'll give them to John at Paizocon on Friday.

There are stickers if you kill the Runelord and different stickers if he kills you.

See you all this weekend.

Perhaps in said example scenario where a subtier 4-5 cleric uses a Slay Living scroll, hard mode adjusts a footlocker so that instead of having 50 gold bars worth 100gp each, there's instead a handy Raise Dead scroll. Thus PCs leave the adventure with no lasting advantage, but there is some measure of damage control to enable the scenario writers to do very evil, malicious things...

great idea! I approve of this message. I would love to see some really devilish havoc from the scenario writers.

Well...

The issue I have with no extra gold for playing up is an issue here. Hard mode means more consumables used means less wealth. Less wealth means weaker characters. Weaker characters means you need more consumables to stay alive which means less wealth...and yeah...you have a death spiral. One way to mitigate this could be a cache of consumables to find and be used in the scenario as already mentioned...and that could be work well if executed well.

Also, I could see GMs who "accidently" use the hard mode stat block. And then there will be GM who honestly actually do accidently do it. Be it because they are new, tired or had to rush a combat and causing deaths or even TPKs.

Then again...with the right group...this could be a lot of fun.

Well...

The issue I have with no extra gold for playing up is an issue here. Hard mode means more consumables used means less wealth.

Not if the party knows how to play the game right. :P

Perhaps in said example scenario where a subtier 4-5 cleric uses a Slay Living scroll, hard mode adjusts a footlocker so that instead of having 50 gold bars worth 100gp each, there's instead a handy Raise Dead scroll.

The issue I have with no extra gold for playing up is an issue here. Hard mode means more consumables used means less wealth. Less wealth means weaker characters. Weaker characters means you need more consumables to stay alive which means less wealth...and yeah...you have a death spiral. One way to mitigate this could be a cache of consumables to find and be used in the scenario as already mentioned...and that could be work well if executed well.

No extra loot. If you're not up to the challenge as it stands, stick to easy mode.

FYI, looks like I'll be running a 'hard mode' table here in Columbus when we get enough PCs to kill, er, run.

(Hoping the Runelord has wish granded fiendsight and contingiencies vs grapple).

The issue I have with no extra gold for playing up is an issue here. Hard mode means more consumables used means less wealth. Less wealth means weaker characters. Weaker characters means you need more consumables to stay alive which means less wealth...and yeah...you have a death spiral. One way to mitigate this could be a cache of consumables to find and be used in the scenario as already mentioned...and that could be work well if executed well.

That's part of the challenge - not just surviving, but doing so with no more consumable use than what normal wealth assumes. If normal scenarios are too easy, then you're already using fewer consumables than your wealth accounts for, so hard mode should put you back on track.

Of course, this is all assuming it was ever really about the challenge in the first place.

I'm not sure if I really understand this.
If you want a Truly Epic Challenge run a PC with a CON of 7 (or an Elven PC with a CON of 5). Go ahead, I dare ya!

Well...

Also, I could see GMs who "accidently" use the hard mode stat block. And then there will be GM who honestly actually do accidently do it. Be it because they are new, tired or had to rush a combat and causing deaths or even TPKs.

That would be a very difficult thing to mistake since it is in the same sidebar block as scaling down rules, not in the body of the text.

Cold Napalm wrote:

Well...

Also, I could see GMs who "accidently" use the hard mode stat block. And then there will be GM who honestly actually do accidently do it. Be it because they are new, tired or had to rush a combat and causing deaths or even TPKs.

That would be a very difficult thing to mistake since it is in the same sidebar block as scaling down rules, not in the body of the text.

I have seen new GM apply the scale down side bar rules by mistake, so I wouldn't dismiss this chance that easily. That would make it less likely for you do while rushed or tired I suppose however. And it would not stop one from "accidentally" doing it.

Michael Brock wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Well...

Also, I could see GMs who "accidently" use the hard mode stat block. And then there will be GM who honestly actually do accidently do it. Be it because they are new, tired or had to rush a combat and causing deaths or even TPKs.

That would be a very difficult thing to mistake since it is in the same sidebar block as scaling down rules, not in the body of the text.

I have seen new GM apply the scale down side bar rules by mistake, so I wouldn't dismiss this chance that easily. That would make it less likely for you do while rushed or tired I suppose however. And it would not stop one from "accidentally" doing it.

Paizo can't fix stupid.

And it would not stop one from "accidentally" doing it.

I personally don't know any GMs who would be interested in "accidentally" changing the challenge of an encounter who are also so stupid that they can't act on that desire unless the adjustments are written out for them by somebody else.

*cheers

Here's hoping my Paizocon table is interested in this.... I would hate to have a table split 50-50 on not wanting to play hard mode....

ps. here is another strong vote for no mechanical reward - bragging rights are all I want!

Paizo can't fix stupid.

Alas.

Paizo can't fix stupid.

Yup!

I really wish I could make it down to Carbondale more often. None of the folks where I live play Society. I really wanna pimpslap Krune after reading this! Looks like so much fun!

Paizo can't fix stupid.

Can you imagine how much money they'd make if they could?

Paizo can't fix stupid.

So true.

You can add my vote to the "no additional rewards" camp.

And, frankly, if people continue to complain about it, chalk this up as a failed experiment and don't do it, again. There is no need to invite additional criticism when all you're doing is providing options that people supposedly wanted in the first place.

In reality, I'm sure many people who claimed they only played up for the challenge will not do Hard Mode.

Personally, I play up for the increased reward. This hard mode isn't for me, but I congratulate the campaign coordinators for creating more options.

Cold Napalm wrote:

And it would not stop one from "accidentally" doing it.

I personally don't know any GMs who would be interested in "accidentally" changing the challenge of an encounter who are also so stupid that they can't act on that desire unless the adjustments are written out for them by somebody else.

You know, there is something odd about that. For some reason, there are people who think it has to be published and then it's somehow not illegal in their minds. Like "accidentally" using the high tier to hit or damage or AC. It's kind of an odd thing. And it does make it harder to prove you did it on purpose as well when it's in there somewhere. I don't know. I figure a DM does this often and they just won't be welcomed to DM anymore locally...but at cons, I can see it being somewhat more of an issue.

"I slayed the Runelord on Hard mode, and all I got was this lousy Chronicle Sheet."

Drogon has it right. :-)

This will be epic. We have at least one table of it running on Friday in St Louis and people are already wanting to line up and watch tables go down in flame on hard mode.

+1 more in the "no reward" camp.