THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING!

I for one welcome our new mob overlords.

Для матери России!

GIEV UKRAINE BACK BASTARDS!

First off, that's really neat, and seems an extremely effective way of modeling this sort of thing...though I am curious to both see what stats an individual soldier would have, and some samples of more typically encountered fantasy troops.

Also...it says Troops lack an attack bonus, but then shows them with a +20. So...which is it? Or am I missing something? Also, if the Troops make an AoO...do they roll to attack or not? Or is that what the +20 is for? And do they only get one AoO per round?

This is definitely something I'd like to see used for less "exotic" Pathfinder enemies; in fact, after GMing my party's first independent boarding attack in Skull & Shackles this Thursday, I wouldn't mind a troop statblock to represent the enemy crew!

Maybe make a booklet for it? Armies of Golarion or something along those lines? I think there's already a thread with that name...

GIEV UKRAINE BACK BASTARDS!

Remember Mazepa!

(Also, could we please have Pomerania back?)

Am I alone in thinking that this idea has been needed for a long time in the game?

Now I hope we get to see a 3rd party PDF that consists of nothing but new rules for troops, and sample troops for orcs, dwarves, drow, humans fighters, and whatever.

Now I hope we get to see a 3rd party PDF that consists of nothing but new rules for troops, and sample troops for orcs, dwarves, drow, humans fighters, and whatever.

Already started.

Also...it says Troops lack an attack bonus, but then shows them with a +20. So...which is it? Or am I missing something? Also, if the Troops make an AoO...do they roll to attack or not? Or is that what the +20 is for? And do they only get one AoO per round?

Too bad we've got a typo in one of the hallmark statblocks of this volume. Delete the +20 in the troop melee line. As the troop subtype states, melee damage from troops is automatic, while ranged attacks like the fusillade and volley attacks allow for saving throws. (My original version includes attack rolls rather than automatic damage for unit-versus-unit skirmishes, but I don't see a holdover modifier in my turnover).

No attack roll should be necessary on AoOs...though the language turned a bit vague on that in the subtype description.

Am I alone in thinking that this idea has been needed for a long time in the game?

Now I hope we get to see a 3rd party PDF that consists of nothing but new rules for troops, and sample troops for orcs, dwarves, drow, humans fighters, and whatever.

Why would such a book need to be from a 3PP?

For those interested in seeing more of this sort of thing from Paizo, head over to the Armies of Golarion thread and voice your support and discuss ideas!

Yay, the mob rules return. Now bring us some Orc and goblin "troops"

Yup. reminds me of the mob rules

But what of things like fireball or meteor swarms that would normally pulverise the individual members? Or cl;oudkill for those not equipped with gas masks?

Well see now I'm curious how the hell a bunch of adventurers wind up in 1918 Russia...

Well see now I'm curious how the hell a bunch of adventurers wind up in 1918 Russia...

In a most magical way.

OK, i see you answered my question about AoO's already. do they need to make attack rolls for CMBs? for any 'special' attacks they may have via Feat (Cleave, etc)? the rules are only mentioning attack rolls, so is miss chance applied normally?

Also, a troop cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, except by area effects that include such effects. A troop can grapple an opponent.

With the last part, they can initiate a grapple but don't gain the condition themselves, ala the kraken ability (akin to the -20 grab option without the penalty)?. So a troop CAN be repositioned, disarmed, and every other maneuver? (although it seems like they aren't using weapons in the traditional sense, so disarm may be irrelevant) When it says a troop cannot be tripped, grappled, or bullrushed, except by area effects, should that also allows other troops (or swarms) to do those maneuvers to them?

As I understand it, each of the Fusillade lines is wholly independent, so all lines can be targetted to affect the same creature (with all lines having separate damage and saves)?

This makes the troop immune to inhaled poisons and other nonmagical airborne attacks that require breathing, and grants it a +2 bonus on saving throws against magical cloud or gas attacks.

I'm not sure about this wording, it seems to apply immunity to inhaled poisons without caveat, which could include magical ones, but then then goes on to say 'other nonmagical airborne attacks that require breathing'. is it non-magical only even though that wasn't stated for the original immunity to inhaled poisons? (i'm not quite sure what magic spells are inhaled poisons, cloudkill specifically isn't as it works even if holding your breath. stinking cloud doesn't have that line, but doesn't specifically say that it is an inhaled poison. regardless, a poison gas spell potentially COULD specifically be inhaled, so the question stands.

If a troop is rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage, it disperses and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.

What does 'disperse' mean? Once it goes unconscious (by nonlethal damage), you can no longer attack and kill it (or interact with it at all) like you normally can? (although it presumably has some way to regain HPs) Is it still occupying it's space and blocking movement? I'm not sure if this line is really needed at all.

But what of things like fireball or meteor swarms that would normally pulverise the individual members? Or cl;oudkill for those not equipped with gas masks?

The troop is treated as a single creature. If it is caught in the radius of a fireball or subject to a cloudkill spell, roll damage, rolls any saves, and apply the effects that affect this creature subtype, just as if you'd targeted any other creature.

Why is the CMD so high? Is it a type-o and meant to be 24 instead of 34? (24 matches CMB+3DEX+1Dodge)
Or is there supposed to be some bonus to CMD (and/or utilization of higher Size bonus), but not CMB?

It probably makes sense to include BAB, Melee Attack Bonus, and CMB even if they are automatic hits, just because some effects might reference those, e.g. Feinting.

For humans, BAB and so on is determined by class, should the troop be considered to have class levels, which determine it's BAB and type of HD per the number of HD it has? Or otherwise specify the BAB/HD type? EDIT: Also Saving Throw progression and skill ranks/class skills.

It might also be advisable to grant the natural armor bonus (+10) via a specific ability, humanoid(human)'s don't normally have nat. armor unless via class ability. That might be a feature of the Troop sub-type, although it seems reasonable to allow for more flexibility on the size of the bonus rather than just a fixed relationship to HD. (I suppose it would stack with any Nat Armor the base creature type normally has)

For squeezing, if one of the component squares is considered squeezing (for a Medium creature, or whatever the component creature Size), is the entire Troop considering squeezing (imagine the Troop being on both sides of a doorway, with only the one doorway square considered squeezing). Or would squeezing penalties only apply to the actual relevant square, on attacks targetting that square, and the troops' own attacks emanating from that square (normally you can choose what square you are attacking from).

Is anyone else 100% not interested in bringing their pathfinder game to "real world"?

Is anyone else 100% not interested in bringing their pathfinder game to "real world"?

Rasputin was a spellcaster and there were daemons running around during ww1 in the "real world"? Gee, I must be smoking the wrong stuff all along...

Is anyone else 100% not interested in bringing their pathfinder game to "real world"?

Sure there are others. But, to be honest, you and those others are really, really missing out on a great adventure.

I am really excited for this adventure, but the whole troop thing rubs me the wrong way. I'd prefer to see the stats on an individual soldier.

I am guessing that the troop system was employed instead because 30 soldiers all making gun-shot and bomb touch attacks against high level adventurers manages to kill heroes very quickly?

A more elegant solution would be to come up with a system for letting the AC system adapt to the constant touch attacks that guns provide.

If this system is for troop vs troop, that's all good. If it's for troop vs 3-5 heroes, it seems like a strange abstraction, and not a good one, IMO. I don't like the idea of Valeros power-attacking a 'swarm' of Russian soldiers.

I am really excited for this adventure, but the whole troop thing rubs me the wrong way. I'd prefer to see the stats on an individual soldier.

I am guessing that the troop system was employed instead because 30 soldiers all making gun-shot and bomb touch attacks against high level adventurers manages to kill heroes very quickly?

A more elegant solution would be to come up with a system for letting the AC system adapt to the constant touch attacks that guns provide.

If this system is for troop vs troop, that's all good. If it's for troop vs 3-5 heroes, it seems like a strange abstraction, and not a good one, IMO. I don't like the idea of Valeros power-attacking a 'swarm' of Russian soldiers.

They do have the stats of single Russian soldier. They are Fighter(Trench Fighter) 6. They WILL be able to hurt the PCs (touch attacks with full base attack bonus will do that), but they will likely die pretty quickly. The aim of the troop stat block is to make it so the DM doesn't have to roll the attacks of 30 soldiers with 2 or 3 attack apiece (individual soldiers have Rapid Shot).

j b 200 wrote:

Is anyone else 100% not interested in bringing their pathfinder game to "real world"?

Rasputin was a spellcaster and there were daemons running around during ww1 in the "real world"? Gee, I must be smoking the wrong stuff all along...

"Animated tank"? I'm there.

KestlerGunner wrote:

I'd prefer to see the stats on an individual soldier.

They do have the stats of single Russian soldier. They are Fighter(Trench Fighter) 6. They WILL be able to hurt the PCs (touch attacks with full base attack bonus will do that), but they will likely die pretty quickly. The aim of the troop stat block is to make it so the DM doesn't have to roll the attacks of 30 soldiers with 2 or 3 attack apiece (individual soldiers have Rapid Shot).

Xevious hits it right on the nose, so here's a few design considerations that led to where we're at:

1. The statblocks of individual troops are provided in the adventure, as Xevious already noted. So if you take a prisoner or something, you've got the statblock there for reference. Hell, you can ignore the troop statblock entirely and use huge groups of regular soldiers, if you like. That option's there if you're up for the math!

2. As I discuss in the book's foreword, I wanted the Earth aspects of this adventure to accurately reflect the limits of human ability readers would expect from "real world" soldiers. And with the level PCs are at in this adventure (13th-15th), I couldn't very well stat out your typical Russian soldier as, say, an appropriately-challenging CR 12 creature, and also expect to have a lot of them and engage in the sorts of combats I envisioned. I think there's a good consensus that Earth in rules terms is decidedly E6 or so, with Pathfinder mechanics around CR6 somewhat representing the upper level of simulation of human achievement in our reality. With that conundrum, I needed to represent big groups of those lower-level soldiers, and thus the troop subtype was born.

3. BECAUSE: did any GMs out there really want to roll fistfulls of dice for dozens of low-level, trench-dwelling mooks, only to have them be barely marginally effective (only thanks to gun rules) as PCs wade through the chaos of dozens of NPCs on the tabletop? This is also the reason I didn't stat out the individual soldiers as gunslingers. Made perfect sense at first, but can you imagine trying to spend and calculate grit point expenditure for all those soldiers? By treating these groups as one big creature, the troop subtype bolsters the GM's efficiency at the table and gives them the tools to present challenging encounters that focus on description and flavor, rather than bookkeeping. Because we're storytellers, not accountants, right? =-)

I think it's an awesome design decision to allow the GM to run troops as individuals or as a troop depending on play style. My personal play style would lean towards individuals, but use Troops for more abstracted combat, perhaps where the PCs are more focused on escape rather than slaying Rasputin loyal Russians. Anything that gives the GM more flexibility is a good thing :)

I think it's an awesome design decision to allow the GM to run troops as individuals or as a troop depending on play style. My personal play style would lean towards individuals, but use Troops for more abstracted combat, perhaps where the PCs are more focused on escape rather than slaying Rasputin loyal Russians. Anything that gives the GM more flexibility is a good thing :)

Just keep in mind that Rasputin has a few hundred soldiers. And it's very possible that the PCs could fight ALL of them.

Eric Hinkle wrote:

Am I alone in thinking that this idea has been needed for a long time in the game?

Now I hope we get to see a 3rd party PDF that consists of nothing but new rules for troops, and sample troops for orcs, dwarves, drow, humans fighters, and whatever.

Why would such a book need to be from a 3PP?

*crosses fingers for foreshadowing*

This is some great stuff. Pathfinder needed a "mob" ruleset.

PEOPLE SWARMS!

*love it*

Perfect for some vegepygmy's this weekend! Rules extrapolation from a blog post go!

OK, i see you answered my question about AoO's already. do they need to make attack rolls for CMBs? for any 'special' attacks they may have via Feat (Cleave, etc)? the rules are only mentioning attack rolls, so is miss chance applied normally?

A troop would still need to roll a combat maneuver check to make a combat maneuver, yes.

Quote:

Also, a troop cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, except by area effects that include such effects. A troop can grapple an opponent.

With the last part, they can initiate a grapple but don't gain the condition themselves, ala the kraken ability (akin to the -20 grab option without the penalty)?. So a troop CAN be repositioned, disarmed, and every other maneuver? (although it seems like they aren't using weapons in the traditional sense, so disarm may be irrelevant) When it says a troop cannot be tripped, grappled, or bullrushed, except by area effects, should that also allows other troops (or swarms) to do those maneuvers to them?

Since a troop is an abstraction that represents more than a single creature, I would say that it does not gain the grappled condition. A troop should also be immune to other combat maneuvers such as reposition or drag - again, it's not really a single creature. If a combat maneuver wouldn't work against a swarm, it likely wouldn't work against a troop. Likewise with disarm - there's not just one weapon to disarm.

As I understand it, each of the Fusillade lines is wholly independent, so all lines can be targetted to affect the same creature (with all lines having separate damage and saves)?

A line doesn't really target a creature (it targets the area of the line), but essentially, yes.

Quote:

This makes the troop immune to inhaled poisons and other nonmagical airborne attacks that require breathing, and grants it a +2 bonus on saving throws against magical cloud or gas attacks.

I'm not sure about this wording, it seems to apply immunity to inhaled poisons without caveat, which could include magical ones, but then then goes on to say 'other nonmagical airborne attacks that require breathing'. is it non-magical only even though that wasn't stated for the original immunity to inhaled poisons? (i'm not quite sure what magic spells are inhaled poisons, cloudkill specifically isn't as it works even if holding your breath. stinking cloud doesn't have that line, but doesn't specifically say that it is an inhaled poison. regardless, a poison gas spell potentially COULD specifically be inhaled, so the question stands.

Poisons, by themselves, are nonmagical, unless stated otherwise (same with longswords, backpacks, and any other thing that's not explicitly stated as being magical). Therefore, a troop is immune to inhaled (nonmagical) poisons and other nonmagical airborne attacks that require breathing. It is not immune to cloudkill or stinking cloud, because they are both magical effects, not poisons. Likewise, a poison gas spell, would be a magical effect, not a nonmagical poison, so it would affect a troop.

Quote:

If a troop is rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage, it disperses and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.

What does 'disperse' mean? Once it goes unconscious (by nonlethal damage), you can no longer attack and kill it (or interact with it at all) like you normally can? (although it presumably has some way to regain HPs) Is it still occupying it's space and blocking movement? I'm not sure if this line is really needed at all.

Like a swarm, a troop "disperses," meaning it is no longer a threat. Most of the individual creatures are likely unconscious or wounded, and the rest likely flee. This is a necessary abstraction to run multiples creatures, like swarms and troops, as individual creatures. Once a troop goes unconscious, if one wanted to go about "killing" it, I'd convert the troop to individual creatures and require multiple coup de grace attempts to kill each of the component creatures.

Why is the CMD so high? Is it a type-o and meant to be 24 instead of 34? (24 matches CMB+3DEX+1Dodge)

Or is there supposed to be some bonus to CMD (and/or utilization of higher Size bonus), but not CMB?

The CMD is normal: 10 +12 BAB +8 Str +3 Dex +1 Dodge = 34.

It probably makes sense to include BAB, Melee Attack Bonus, and CMB even if they are automatic hits, just because some effects might reference those, e.g. Feinting.

For humans, BAB and so on is determined by class, should the troop be considered to have class levels, which determine it's BAB and type of HD per the number of HD it has? Or otherwise specify the BAB/HD type? EDIT: Also Saving Throw progression and skill ranks/class skills.

It might also be advisable to grant the natural armor bonus (+10) via a specific ability, humanoid(human)'s don't normally have nat. armor unless via class ability. That might be a feature of the Troop sub-type, although it seems reasonable to allow for more flexibility on the size of the bonus rather than just a fixed relationship to HD. (I suppose it would stack with any Nat Armor the base creature type normally has)

A troop should be statted up as a new creature, using the base creature for a guideline, but matching the correct numbers for its CR on Bestiary table 1-1: Monster Statistics by CR, as you would for any new monster.

For squeezing, if one of the component squares is considered squeezing (for a Medium creature, or whatever the component creature Size), is the entire Troop considering squeezing (imagine the Troop being on both sides of a doorway, with only the one doorway square considered squeezing). Or would squeezing penalties only apply to the actual relevant square, on attacks targetting that square, and the troops' own attacks emanating from that square (normally you can choose what square you are attacking from).

A troop is not squeezing unless the entire troop (all 16 squares) is squeezing.

First off, that's really neat, and seems an extremely effective way of modeling this sort of thing...though I am curious to both see what stats an individual soldier would have, and some samples of more typically encountered fantasy troops.

Also...it says Troops lack an attack bonus, but then shows them with a +20. So...which is it? Or am I missing something? Also, if the Troops make an AoO...do they roll to attack or not? Or is that what the +20 is for? And do they only get one AoO per round?

As Brandon said, the +20 attack bonus on the melee line is a mistake. From the Troop Attack section: A troop's stat block has "troop" in its Melee entry with no attack bonus given.

Call the brute squad!

cool you can so use this with mass combat. letting you pc wade in to the battle and fight 1 vs 100s.

So this is basically like the mobs from DMG2? Sweet.

Do the rules for automatic fire interact with troops any differently?

Like does firing the line effect of automatic fire only deal damage as if you hit the swarm one time? You would get the bonus +50% for being an area of effect I think, but you're only talking about 2d8 x 1.5 for damage (average like 15?) if you use the Maxim. I'd think machine guns much more effective against them?

Alternately do all 10 bullets get a chance to hit the swarm?

As a German, I'd rather see a blog called "THE PRUSSIANS are coming", but this module is still fantastically good. :)

How do troops interact with Leadership? Can we take a troop as a cohort? Seems like a good option for playing a military commander or mercenary captain type of character.

The module just arrived when I was out-of-town and have not read the setting yet, but, the initial description, reminds me a bit of "Deathless" a Russian folklore based fantasy novel by Catherynne Valente. Everything from Baba Yaga's hut, to the siege of Leningrad make appearances, including an army made of stitched and stuffed cloth automatons.

Natural AC bonus +10 ? Seems a lot for WW2 troopers, just to get CR 11 like armor class...

Can we expect to see troops in Bestiary4?

Please please please!

I'm curious to see what was the based creature used here and how it got it's bonus to STR, CON and Nat Ar.

Can we expect to see troops in Bestiary4?

Please please please!

I'm curious to see what was the based creature used here and how it got it's bonus to STR, CON and Nat Ar.

Hopefully those troops won't be modern-time humans then :-p

Quandary wrote:

OK, i see you answered my question about AoO's already. do they need to make attack rolls for CMBs? for any 'special' attacks they may have via Feat (Cleave, etc)? the rules are only mentioning attack rolls, so is miss chance applied normally?

A troop would still need to roll a combat maneuver check to make a combat maneuver, yes.

A feat like Cleave wouldn't work for a troop, since it doesn't need to make attack rolls.
Concealment and miss chances are a little trickier, but if a troop is occupying the same space as a character and deals automatic damage, I don't think it would have a miss chance.

Perhaps the 'miss chance' would be used as a reduction in the automatic damage? (ie 20% miss chance means only taking 80% of the listed damage). That keeps the math simple while reflecting the change in average damage if you rolled each of the individual attacks out.

I'm curious to see what was the based creature used here and how it got it's bonus to STR, CON and Nat Ar.

The base creature is essentially built from the ground up as a Gargantuan humanoid with the [troop] subtype, with its hit dice, statistics, and abilities assigned according to the recommended guidelines for a creature of its size, type, and CR as found on on Bestiary Table 1-1: Monster Statistics by CR.

goldomark wrote:

I'm curious to see what was the based creature used here and how it got it's bonus to STR, CON and Nat Ar.

The base creature is essentially built from the ground up as a Gargantuan humanoid with the [troop] subtype, with its statistics and abilities assigned according to the recommended guidelines for a creature of its size, type, and CR as found on on Bestiary Table 1-1: Monster Statistics by CR. Since the component creatures have the fighter class, and creatures with the humanoid type define hit dice by class levels, hit dice are d10.

But they use d8s in the stat block.

I threw together a CR4-5ish vegepygmy troop to throw at my party last night, and ran into a few fun things. Its not immune to grease and glitterdust as both are area attacks, which if your whole 20' grouping is in a square, can bone you quickly.

I'm really hoping more than these one or two troops get published, because figuring out what sort of standard action special ability seemed appropriate and appropriately balanced was a bit of a crapshoot.

But they use d8s in the stat block.

Oops, my bad!

I'm trying to be really careful in my conversations on this topic and not bleed the home system rules this was based on with the developed and published version, which I inadvertently did here. I'm going to edit my previous comment to avoid confusion. =-)

I'm really hoping more than these one or two troops get published, because figuring out what sort of standard action special ability seemed appropriate and appropriately balanced was a bit of a crapshoot.

If you have not yet voiced your support for a future product I'd love to do with Paizo in the Armies of Golarion thread, do it! ;-)

Eric Hinkle wrote:

Now I hope we get to see a 3rd party PDF that consists of nothing but new rules for troops, and sample troops for orcs, dwarves, drow, humans fighters, and whatever.

Already started.

Good news! I'll happily purchase such a product.