Guide 4.2 and Changes to Pathfinder Society Organized Play

At a recent con, I sat and played at a table with a gunslinger. I noticed the penalties of -8/-8 to each shot weren't being subtracted to the rolls, the increased chance of misfires were being ignored, and the gold per shot wasn't being calculated.

Once I corrected all of these, the gunslinger became much less effective and decided he didn't want to spend so much gold every round on ammunition. The -8/-8 penalty is hefty, even against touch AC.

I think that if GMs make sure the rules are being applied properly, you will not see gunslingers dominating combat as much as is currently being reported.

archers get to fire two shots at one time only ONCE--and they have to take a specific feat just to do that one thing. they cant buy a bow for 1750 that automatically fires two arrows each time they fire it.

But the archers also can't accidentally blow up their bows, their ammunition is WAY cheaper, they don't take -8 to their attacks (double firing plus TWF), they don't need a feat to "load" their bow as a free action, and they happily shoot from the safety of 100ft away instead of being in charging distance.

EDIT: Brock'd.

Hakken wrote:

Clint Blome wrote:

Blocking a Gunslinger or any other class from getting his full iterative attack by limiting the free action reload is simply wrong. Doubly so when you make a point of allowing the Archer to do it. Blocking the rediculous amount of Free Actions done by some builds is perfectly fine, but at the very least, every class should get their full iterative attack. Simply put, it wouldn't be there if it wasn't meant to be used.

part of the problem with the gunslinger as I said is the double barrel pistol. Every time you give the gunslinger an extra attack--they actually get two.

gunslinger takes two weapon fighting--get two extra attacks instead of one. Party hasted--everyone else gets one extra attack, gunslinger gets two. at 6th level when anyone else would get 1 extra attack--gunslingers get two.

the double barrel pistol breaks the gunslinger.

archers get to fire two shots at one time only ONCE--and they have to take a specific feat just to do that one thing. they cant buy a bow for 1750 that automatically fires two arrows each time they fire it.

But to fire both shots of a double barrel as a single action, its -4 to hit.

And Gunslingers need a couple feats before they can really be good firing into combat. It will be about 5th level before they have precise shot if that soon. So that's another -4 to hit (assuming the builds that seem to get Dex 20, Improved Init, and the trait for Init +2) it may be 7th level before they can get precise shot.

so use the example above and they are firing at an adult dragon

ac 28---touch ac 8. they would need to get a negative 20 to their attacks just to need equal to the rest of the party. yes casters can hit the touch also--but they have to compete against SR then.

now take that to ancient dragon ac 37 touch ac 5. the gunslinger needs 32 less on their to hit---do you really think a neg 8 matters?

Please take the gunslinger discussion to its own thread.

I suggest we follow Mark's wishes and move on from the Gunslinger discussion.

I find myself fairly satisfied with 4.2. It's not exactly how I would organize things but it's not so far from how I would. I've been impressed in just how open M&M have been to discussion. I'm not sure I'd feel as comfortable as them letting the community weigh in on things.

Here's to another year of Pathfinder fun. *raises glass*

Hakken wrote:

archers get to fire two shots at one time only ONCE--and they have to take a specific feat just to do that one thing. they cant buy a bow for 1750 that automatically fires two arrows each time they fire it.

But the archers also can't accidentally blow up their bows, their ammunition is WAY cheaper, they don't take -8 to their attacks (double firing plus TWF), they don't need a feat to "load" their bow as a free action, and they happily shoot from the safety of 100ft away instead of being in charging distance.

EDIT: Brock'd.

100 feet away works great in home games. How often are you 100 feet away in PFS? I have yet to see a gun blow up--and reliable on gun makes it less so at high levels. Gunslingers are horrible at tracking their ammunition expenditure. archers firing at an ancient dragon need 37---gunslingers need 5 --so +8 more--=13 still need 24 less.

like I said--gunslingers get nifty "grit" feats they can do. Combine that with hitting touch ac. Combine that with almost all combat in PFS is close range. That should be enough

they should have to track expenditures---if audited and they havent--penalize them because they are cheating. also no double barrel pistols. As I said--it is the double barrel pistol which breaks things.

Sorry will do Michael

Well..there goes the fun of one of my builds...like completely.

So I was going for the vaguely 'from the east' theme with my synth. And played around with basically....him having a few digimon (season 4) references. Good for a few laughs. Was often the tables tank...and even with his high AC..tended to get the snot beat out of him. In return my spell casting was gimped (slightly) because I had to choose to either do combat...or cast a spell. Being the teams main melee..yeah.

So now I'm forced to loose the flavor I had for fun (and honestly the only reason I chose summoner period...for the 'fusing with another creature' type play and fun)...and to actually gain power...as even with my base build my only 'dump' stat was strength..which is around 8 str. And I can still rebuild my stats to fix that if I want.

So basically I'm now going to have two seperate creatures to handle..instead of a single creature...increasing my turn time.
And I'll have double the actions, allowing me to both tank for and buff the entire party at once..increasing the power of my own summoner.

Or I could rebuild for a lance charger and just go hog wild.

So..yeah, this is forcing me to lose a flavor I liked...and to gain even more power/turn time..when I heard enough complaints as is.

Well..I suppose I could always start 'digimodifying' and actually take evolution surge as well for some fun....but I really like the fused being for its flavor..and pure simplicity of use. I guess most of my skills arn't useful either..so I might as well go ahead and just be another generic CHR skill monkey build...

Honestly...the change to Synth summoner only really makes sense in the purview of multiclassing..thats where the real cheese from it was...as a pure synth your char is as powerful as...if not worse off than..a pure summoner. I'd rather they just block Synth summoners from being able to multiclass.

Andrew Christian wrote:

Hakken wrote:

Clint Blome wrote:

Blocking a Gunslinger or any other class from getting his full iterative attack by limiting the free action reload is simply wrong. Doubly so when you make a point of allowing the Archer to do it. Blocking the rediculous amount of Free Actions done by some builds is perfectly fine, but at the very least, every class should get their full iterative attack. Simply put, it wouldn't be there if it wasn't meant to be used.

part of the problem with the gunslinger as I said is the double barrel pistol. Every time you give the gunslinger an extra attack--they actually get two.

gunslinger takes two weapon fighting--get two extra attacks instead of one. Party hasted--everyone else gets one extra attack, gunslinger gets two. at 6th level when anyone else would get 1 extra attack--gunslingers get two.

the double barrel pistol breaks the gunslinger.

archers get to fire two shots at one time only ONCE--and they have to take a specific feat just to do that one thing. they cant buy a bow for 1750 that automatically fires two arrows each time they fire it.

But to fire both shots of a double barrel as a single action, its -4 to hit.

And Gunslingers need a couple feats before they can really be good firing into combat. It will be about 5th level before they have precise shot if that soon. So that's another -4 to hit (assuming the builds that seem to get Dex 20, Improved Init, and the trait for Init +2) it may be 7th level before they can get precise shot.

so use the example above and they are firing at an adult dragon

ac 28---touch ac 8. they would need to get a negative 20 to their attacks just to need equal to the rest of the party. yes casters can hit the touch also--but they have to compete against SR then.

now take that to ancient dragon ac 37 touch ac 5. the gunslinger needs 32 less on their to hit---do you really think a neg 8 matters?

Actually yes that -8 does matter since if the gunslinger is further than a 5 foot step from that dragon he's attacking AC 45. If he's less then a 5 foot step away he's eating an AoO every time he pulls that trigger.

This trick *CAN* do a lot of damage but it is expensive, limited range, error prone and forces them to be very close to their target. The creatures you are using to highlight this tend to be big, powerful and have extended reach. Using this trick you'd better kill it in one round or you die as soon as it turns to you.

caveat: Personally I truly dislike the Gunslinger class and refuse to play with them but have to speak up against strawman arguments like this.

Personally I truly dislike the Gunslinger class and refuse to play with them

I am so playing my gunslinger at your table every chance I get.

Such as reloading a gun. You are talking about several mini-actions of grabbing your bullet, powder horn, uncapping the powder horn, pouring powder into your muzzle, dropping your bullet in, and tamping them.

So it makes sense that you could probably only do that once or twice a round. I might even go so far as to say three or four.

Lets keep this in context. A round is SIX seconds. No more, no less. Six Seconds in which you're also squeezing in an attack action, a move action, or a full attack action sequence and a 5 foot adjustment.

It's one thing to pull an arrow out of your quiver and fire it through a bow as a single arm motion. That's what archers do. Now with all of those other actions that we have to budget for in a SIX second turn, how many mulitples of (grabbing your bullet, powder horn, uncapping the powder horn, pouring powder into your muzzle, dropping your bullet in, and tamping them.) are you going to try to fit in as an action that essentially takes NO time. Given that a free action should really take no more than a second of real time.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Personally I truly dislike the Gunslinger class and refuse to play with them

I am so playing my gunslinger at your table every chance I get.

Jon, I will visit you guys in Dallas after GenCon and bring Both my Gunslingers! ;)

Jonathan Cary wrote:

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Personally I truly dislike the Gunslinger class and refuse to play with them

I am so playing my gunslinger at your table every chance I get.

Jon, I will visit you guys in Dallas after GenCon and bring Both my Gunslingers! ;)

Please do, both of you.

I use all the tear-stained character sheets of my victims as stuffing for my bed/nest. :P

How is a physical copy of the Character Folio defined?

If a player is using a physical copy of the Pathfinder RPG Player Character Folio, they receive a free reroll as if granted by a shirt.

How is a physical copy of the Character Folio defined?

Quote:

If a player is using a physical copy of the Pathfinder RPG Player Character Folio, they receive a free reroll as if granted by a shirt.

One that is the shiny one from Paizo. Not a PDF or a printout of a PDF. :)

Please do, both of you. Remember I said PLAY with not run for.

I think the plan is to have you play at a table with us... In fact Jon lets set up the table so every players but him is playing a Gunslinger... ;)

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Please do, both of you. Remember I said PLAY with not run for.

I think the plan is to have you play at a table with us... In fact Jon lets set up the table so every players but him is playing a Gunslinger... ;)

Either way, I'm not picky. I like where your head's at.

I for one welcome our change(d) overlords!

In other words, I dont see much here that, honestly, takes away from the game in order to keep a balance between all the players at a table. A lot of what I am hearing on many things can simply be taken care of by the GM paying attention to what is right, knowing the rules, and even applying some common sense to situations. I dont think I have ever had a player argue with me on a basis of common sense, when I display my reasoning behind my calls.

Our jobs as GMs, besides running the game, is making it fun for everyone. Being in the Society, we have some limitations impposed on us, but we are still under the gun for making sure everyone is having fun and playing well together.

Sorry for the tangent, just wanted to get that out there.

As for the new guide, thank you for the changes, really. More races at the tables, some cleaner info on the Fame and Day job tables, and finally GMs able to get boons from scenarios they run.

Lets see how this Season comes out!

In general there is some stuff I like, some stuff I dont about the new changes which probably means its fairly balanced overall, I do like the first level rebuilds and the improved clarity in the rules overall.

I personally dislike the opening of races especially those with splatbooks giving them very versitile attribute bonuses as from an optimisers standpoint there are very few classes that arent better as a planetouched race now (but in the end its up to the campaign management to make calls like that).

Overall though im generally positive on the changes so im looking forward to the new season

Are the Aasimar and Tiefling variants open, too?

Are the Aasimar and Tiefling variants open, too?

If you have access to the race, you can use any legal options from the Additional Resources for that race.

From the additional resources

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels
Heritages: all heritages on pages 21–23 are legal

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends
Heritages: all heritages on pages 18–23 are legal

So yes the heritages are open (giving specific alterations to stat boosts, SLA and skill boosts) which means you will see alot of angel blooded aasimars with +2St +2Cha for paladins (no negative stats and pluses in both the paladins core abilities), its why im not 100% happy about the race release, but like I said its up to the campaign management and they feel its a good idea.

In the end it doesnt really effect my fun as I enjoy the story and that isnt going to change much even with a small increase in average party power. It also doesnt effect my spending on the campaign as I bought the ARG a few weeks ago with no intentions to actually use it (buying the books is just my way of supporting paizo I hardly use anything outside core+APG).

I think the balance changes will be good for the long term. We're having an arms race, either we have to continue making scenarios more challenging (to the point where regular PCs can't survive) or certain class builds have to go.

I think it was good that you changed your mind and let people rebuild their stats.

I'm not sure how I feel about the races, on the one hand I'm glad it makes some people happy, on the other hand Aasimar is really better than any other race.

I like the GM boon changes too.

Good changing the core assumptions, we'll get better scenarios.

I like the new graphics, but some of them are really ink heavy. Some graphics are nice, but they're not needed everywhere.

Now I just have to read the whole document word for word.

In summary, great work.

so the book / changes go live august 16 .... if we have affected classes is there anything stopping us from making the changes now ? or do we have to wait till the 16th ?

so the book / changes live august 16 .... if we have affected classes is there anything stopping us from making the changes now ? or do we have to wait till the 16th ?

You can make changes now. I just wanted to give people 10 full days in case they wanted to play the character a few last times. Drop dead date for change is Aug. 16 so anytime between now and then is good.

Id respectufuly really like to know the reasoning behind banning thr Undead Lord. All the others I get, but I cant think of any for that archtype.

Beckett, I think you missed the explanation I recall seeing earlier in the massive thread - the undead lord has some rules interpretation issues with the corpse companion that slow things down in even more significant ways than dominate-lite tactics while they are adjudicated.

That sort of rules discussion and finagling at the table isn't usually fun for the other three to six people affected, so it's been removed.

From the additional resources

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels
Heritages: all heritages on pages 21–23 are legal

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends
Heritages: all heritages on pages 18–23 are legal

So yes the heritages are open (giving specific alterations to stat boosts, SLA and skill boosts) which means you will see alot of angel blooded aasimars with +2St +2Cha for paladins (no negative stats and pluses in both the paladins core abilities), its why im not 100% happy about the race release, but like I said its up to the campaign management and they feel its a good idea.

In the end it doesnt really effect my fun as I enjoy the story and that isnt going to change much even with a small increase in average party power. It also doesnt effect my spending on the campaign as I bought the ARG a few weeks ago with no intentions to actually use it (buying the books is just my way of supporting paizo I hardly use anything outside core+APG).

I hope so, since not enough of those LG's, I have to be good guys.

Id respectufuly really like to know the reasoning behind banning thr Undead Lord. All the others I get, but I cant think of any for that archtype.

I am affected by this (Specifically).. and while I am Sad to see the Undead Lord go .. I am not suprised in the slightest

while the rules interpretations are a factor ..

I believe it has more to do with the inherent inter party conflict it breeds at conventions / open tables

Clerics / paladins of Sareanrae and Pharasma

Paladins oath against Undead

the Undead Lord is ALMOST unplayable with these characters in the same group because of the dynamics of opposition

I know I had to let one GM know What I was bringing to a game simply as a courtesy

Id respectufuly really like to know the reasoning behind banning thr Undead Lord. All the others I get, but I cant think of any for that archtype.

So walking around town with an undead companion doesn't seem a problem to you for most civilized societies?

Beckett wrote:

Id respectufuly really like to know the reasoning behind banning thr Undead Lord. All the others I get, but I cant think of any for that archtype.

So walking around town with an undead companion doesn't seem a problem to you for most civilized societies?

I'd say this logic applies to far more classes and archetypes than just Undead Lord.

Uh, tieflings?

Beckett, I think you missed the explanation I recall seeing earlier in the massive thread - the undead lord has some rules interpretation issues with the corpse companion that slow things down in even more significant ways than dominate-lite tactics while they are adjudicated.

I recall seeing a few speculations about flavor, but nothing really specific. Could you pont me a little closer to it? Thanks.

I believe it has more to do with the inherent inter party conflict it breeds at conventions / open tables

Clerics / paladins of Sareanrae and Pharasma

Paladins oath against Undead

the Undead Lord is ALMOST unplayable with these characters in the same group because of the dynamics of opposition

I know I had to let one GM know What I was bringing to a game simply as a courtesy

And yet other classes, Necromancer, Oracle of Bones, Witches, Tieflings, and anything that can do basically (or literally) the exact same thing are not likewise banned? It seems really arbitrary to point a finger at the least culprit while other non-paladin/Saranrae/Pharasma friendly characters are a go. I do not currently have an Undead Lord, though I've been wanting to try one (and now will not be able to), I'd really like to know why, AND more importantly would like to know the reasoning so I can explain it to other players. The other bans are obvious, and this one, to me simply is not and I really do not feel it is deserved at all. So I'd really like to know why exactly.

:)

Wraith: (shrug) That's just as good a reason to outlaw clerics of Urgathoa with the Undeath subdomain. OR Dhampyr Oracles of Bones. Or summoners whse eidolons have the mien of undeath. (Having said that, yes, I have always brought a back-up PC when bringing my Undead Lord to a group. Some paladins want to role-play the conflict, and that's fun. Some just want to smite me.)

Andrew: there's a whole host of things that are illegal in Absalom, according to the sourcebook. Like, mind-controlling magic. We still let enchanters into the Pathfinder Society. We let PCs own slaves. We trust those PCs to be prudent and not cause a ruckus. We could do the same with Undead Lords.

Really, the complications of figuring out the stats for your Corpse Companion on the go are enough to set the class aside for me.

Figuring out a corpse companion is only slightly harder than applying Augment Summon to summoned monsters.

I guess that feat is next on the chopping block.

I'd say this logic applies to far more classes and archetypes than just Undead Lord.

Uh, tieflings?

Well excuuuse me, princess. I have just as much a right to be here as any of those brutish half-orcs do. At least I know how to act in civilized company...

Necromancer isnt an archtype its a Title given to a wizard with Necromancy as their Arcane School - and it doesn't Inherently change the wizard class

Witches - Gravewalker did get banned

Oracle of Bones - my only defense of that one is probably not a lot of people play it and it may have slipped through the cracks

so go for Combination of Flavor and rules variations and youve likely hit the nail on the head ...

I am not saying "DOWN WITH UNDEAD LORDS" as I have one at level 8 (fighter 1 Undead lord 7)

Wraith: (shrug) That's just as good a reason to outlaw clerics of Urgathoa with the Undeath subdomain. OR Dhampyr Oracles of Bones. Or summoners whse eidolons have the mien of undeath. (Having said that, yes, I have always brought a back-up PC when bringing my Undead Lord to a group. Some paladins want to role-play the conflict, and that's fun. Some just want to smite me.)

Really, the complications of figuring out the stats for your Corpse Companion on the go are enough to set the class aside for me.

point made as well - tho once you figure it out once its really easy ... tho I can agree if a GM wants to double check your work - your suddenly looking at 30 min per table

Definitely need to decide who to use my character folio on now. I imagine if the character dies, it's ok to reuse it for PFS?

I don't see why not, when you can wear a shirt more than once. :)

Beckett wrote:

Id respectufuly really like to know the reasoning behind banning thr Undead Lord. All the others I get, but I cant think of any for that archtype.

So walking around town with an undead companion doesn't seem a problem to you for most civilized societies?

Invest in handle animal and a cart.

I don't see why not, when you can wear a shirt more than once. :)

Those people at the department store lied to me!

TetsujinOni wrote:

Beckett, I think you missed the explanation I recall seeing earlier in the massive thread - the undead lord has some rules interpretation issues with the corpse companion that slow things down in even more significant ways than dominate-lite tactics while they are adjudicated.

I recall seeing a few speculations about flavor, but nothing really specific. Could you pont me a little closer to it? Thanks.

Wraith235 wrote:

I believe it has more to do with the inherent inter party conflict it breeds at conventions / open tables

Clerics / paladins of Sareanrae and Pharasma

Paladins oath against Undead

the Undead Lord is ALMOST unplayable with these characters in the same group because of the dynamics of opposition

I know I had to let one GM know What I was bringing to a game simply as a courtesy

And yet other classes, Necromancer, Oracle of Bones, Witches, Tieflings, and anything that can do basically (or literally) the exact same thing are not likewise banned? It seems really arbitrary to point a finger at the least culprit while other non-paladin/Saranrae/Pharasma friendly characters are a go. I do not currently have an Undead Lord, though I've been wanting to try one (and now will not be able to), I'd really like to know why, AND more importantly would like to know the reasoning so I can explain it to other players. The other bans are obvious, and this one, to me simply is not and I really do not feel it is deserved at all. So I'd really like to know why exactly.

:)

Beckett, thanks for asking this. I have been hoping for an answer to the ban of the Undead Lord as well. The original reasoning I had heard was due to evil flavor and flavor text. But I posted earlier that I can make the same cleric with the same domain, same god, same alignment, same variant channeling, same spells, and even a pet (with less animate undead.) So banning the UL for this seems a little heavy handed for me.

I've now noticed that people have mentioned issues with the corpse companion rules. But not totally sure yet.

As the player of an oracle of bones, I'm hoping they won't be lumped into the ban. The entire character concept is of one who is fascinated by the workings of undead, so it would kind of be killed if I had to take a different mystery.

On page 24 of the guide, Table 5-2 has the costs listed for different Spellcasting Services.

Under Atonement, the Price of 3000 gold to restore class abilities is listed for Clerics, Druids and Inquisitors. Shouldn't this reflect Table 5-4 on page 27 where an Atonement to restore class abilities is 8PP for Clerics, Druids, Inquisitors and Paladins?

As the player of an oracle of bones, I'm hoping they won't be lumped into the ban. The entire character concept is of one who is fascinated by the workings of undead, so it would kind of be killed if I had to take a different mystery.

Dont get me wrong, Im not advocating that at all. Im just trying to understand. If it does turn out to be the weak flavor thing, Id like to know why the other classes/archtypes are then not also banned when they are much more deserving of it.

If it is some Corpse Comp issue (completely new to mean, what is this suppossednissue?), well why is the Summoner class, again a much worse culprit and probably the single most complained about class by far, likewise not banned?

Mergy wrote:

As the player of an oracle of bones, I'm hoping they won't be lumped into the ban. The entire character concept is of one who is fascinated by the workings of undead, so it would kind of be killed if I had to take a different mystery.

Dont get me wrong, Im not advocating that at all. Im just trying to understand. If it does turn out to be the weak flavor thing, Id like to know why the other classes/archtypes are then not also banned when they are much more deserving of it.

If it is some Corpse Comp issue (completely new to mean, what is this suppossednissue?), well why is the Summoner class, again a much worse culprit and probably the single most complained about class by far, likewise not banned?

The Gravewalker Witch did get the banhammer, but the rest of the class flavor isn't that outside the feel of the setting. No moreso than Oracles, who also gain their powers through mysterious ways.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are more complaints about Gunslingers than Summoners.

Also, there seems to be a huge amount of contention about the Bladebound Magus, and how their Black Blade's operate, leaving me a bit surprised they didn't get hit with the ban as well.

After reading 3 pages of posts I gave up and decided to ask this question. Can someone explain to me the big difference between a synthesis and an optimized druid? I mean this sincerely!

Having slow tracked a Synthesis and played it for a long time now it is kind of annoying that it's gone.

That said I am going to take those chronicles and make the cheesiest optimized character possible, wish me luck.

The big difference is that a druid can't dump his physical stats. He also can't access all the best abilities at the same time (such as flight and pounce).

synthesist is one combined character that can attack or cast but not both. Druid will have two "characters"-counting their AC

druid in beast form will be close to equal to the synthesist--but has a full strength animal companion backing it up.

synthesist advantage: only one character taking damage from Area of affect spells and possibly a little more dps when against just the druid

druid advantage; two "characters"-counting the animal companion to do damage and provide flanking and will out dps the synthesist when combined. can both individually wear magic items without counting against others but have to buy for both. If druid stops to cast spells-her AC can keep attacking. both characters get healed by channels or such.

spell difference

people dont understand the eidelon or synthesist creation and they realize it----however same people dont understand beast form or animal companions (basically same as eidelons) and it doesnt bother them

Hey all! Thought i'd give my 2 cents on the new stuff, and see others' reaction and thoughts as well.

I like the new races and all, but to me, I think aasimar and tiefling(mostly aasimar) seem to be overpowered. Aasimar gets 2 +2 to scores(granted, they are both mental, not physical), darkvision(that alone makes them great), Daylight once per day, and energy resist 5 for all primary elements except for Lighting I think. That energy resist alone, imo, makes any 1st level energy type spell(Burning hands, Chill Touch) and the cantrips useless. This seems quite powerful. Depending on the mage's preped spells, you're basically immune.

I've never played the classes that have been removed, so I have no idea if they were OP or not.

But these are just my thoughts, and they could certainly be more balanced than I believe.