Changing Sanctioned Module Play

What you have to track are the items from your PC or pregen that you start the module with. You can purchase resources (where available) from the existing gold of the PC or the pregen and write it on the Chronicle sheets under Items Bought. Scenarios don't let you buy anything on "credit" modules don't either.

The one bit that could be seen as an exception to this is when clearing conditions (including death) at the end of a module. You may use any GP/PP earned during the scenario, any existing GP/PP the PC has and any GP/PP from the linked PC when "fixing" a pregen.

My point was that can add up to more then the PC Link to the Pre-Gen even with the Gold from the Scenario. So I was wondering what Mike had in mind for that.

You can't spend more than you have on your linked PC.

You can't spend more than you have on your linked PC.

ummm, that is a Problem and a Headache since then I will have to keep track of every GP used on the Pre-Gens...

Also makes the Pre-Gens even Less useful if they don't have access to all their listed items.

Disclaimer: OK, I haven't read everything, but here's my two copper.

I played Iron Medusa (part of) at GenCon. I was able to build and run a 14th level character, something I'd never get to do outside a module in PFS. We played two midnight madness's and I had a lot of fun (but too little sleep for an old fart). I don't want to lose the option of building a high level PFS character for a high level module. I had as much fun creating the character and trying out some new things as I did playing him. That's one of the cool things about high level modules that I don't want to lose. I don't see the 'building high level character' in Mike's 3 options.

-Swiftbrook

heretic wrote:

Hmm, I am not sure that we have to build in parachutes into mods because they are too hard for PFS characters. If you want rewards I buy the idea that you risk the life of a real PC.

What I don't want is a party of mismatched 7th level Pcs along with Ezren & co being the only option for Ebon Destroyers.

Isn't there supposed to be some judgment on the part of the players and GMs here?

If you have a mismatched group of 7th level PCs and pregens your options are to run From Sea to Shore or Fellnight Queen. I would suggest Sea to Shore because Fellnight is itself rather deadly in one part. They won't get the treasure they would get from Ebon Destroyers, but they will survive.

Your other option is to play regular scenarios until folks get to 8th or even 9th level to play Ebon Destroyer.

Of course there is supposed to be some judgement!

My point is that if a group of players with disparate levels fancy having a game together while still particpating in PFS, a module currently let's them do so.

Yes! There are other mods available but if the players' levels are disparate the options remain perennially playing at the lowest available (and if a new fella joins....)or do a mod to bring up the guys at the bottom without the older guys getting sick of low level fare.

I don't like the fact that no "real" character is at risk (this can be fixed ofc) but I do like the idea that they can create e.g. 8th level version of the existing PCs and then pass the XP on. Not least as if passed on smartly it helps deal with a small player base with occasional deaths and recruitment.

Specifically to your point of Ebon Destroyers. Under the new dispensation those with eligible 7th level characters would be partnered by those without such charcters using standard Pre Gens.
having recently just scraped though Ebon Destroyers, that would, IMHO be bad. Also the fact that the eligible characters then get to an even higher level while the charcaters linked to the pregens still need to play to get the chron. The disparity gets worse.

FWISW I guess that if there had been as many mods available from the word go, perhaps the current rules would never have been adopted and something akin to the new ones might have been there from word go.
That doesn't mean that if we spot a beneficial side effect we just bin it!

I think it is clear that a side effect of allowing Pre-Gens for Mods WAS allowing players to play together at other Tiers than 1 or 1-2 despite having a shallow and slow filling pool of PFS gamers. That is no bad thing, surely?

I spot checked when the kind change to MOTFF GM ratings pushed me over 30 GMs points a couple of games early: I had only GMed I think 1 game other than Tier 1, or 1-2 and only played higher at a distant conventions or in one module. Which is a pain. I also know it to be a factor in some ppl quitting as they tired of playing only at low tier.

W

Michael Brock wrote:

You can't spend more than you have on your linked PC.

ummm, that is a Problem and a Headache since then I will have to keep track of every GP used on the Pre-Gens...

Also makes the Pre-Gens even Less useful if they don't have access to all their listed items.

I admit I'm very confused with this question. If a pregen has a listed item, it can be used free of charge. The items listed on a pregen do not cost anything extra.

I admit I'm very confused with this question. If a pregen has a listed item, it can be used free of charge. The items listed on a pregen do not cost anything extra.

then I am confused by this line..

Whether playing your own character or a pregenerated character, all conditions (including death) not resolved within the module carry beyond the end of the module. Likewise, any wealth spent or resources expended during the course of the adventure are tracked and must be recorded on the Chronicle sheet.

If you are using a pregenerated character, calculate the cost of any consumables used and mark this cost on the Chronicle sheet.

That says to me If I use any of the consumables on the Pre-Gens Sheet the Linked PC pays for it.. If that is not what you meant, and you meant that using Consumables with Pre-Gens cost you nothing that is not what your rules say.

I meant if you choose to buy scrolls, potions, or any other consumables above what is lited on a pregen sheet at the start of the module, you must pay for it.

might as well remove the Pre-gens all the way since that is not an option anyway

I'm sorry, but I have to respond to the pervasive misrepresentation of the pregens as "unplayable." I have had numerous opportunities to play higher level pregens and, as yet, have not died a single time and enjoyed every opportunity. I have also had numerous casual players use a pregen at my tables and with only a couple of exceptions, they have done very well.

We all agree that they are not optimized builds as most players would create a character, but that hardly makes them "not an option." If you choose not to use one when the opportunity presents itself, that is your choice. However, the pregens are what you make of them, just like any other character build.

I meant if you choose to buy scrolls, potions, or any other consumables above what is lited on a pregen sheet at the start of the module, you must pay for it.

ok... With What Money? Not buying much with the Pre-Gens 47gp.. And you need to make that more clear in the rule.

Do you mean with the Linked PC? if that is the case you need to make that clear as well.

By the way, I still say if you are not of the mind that Modules are there to open play for more players I think it is Dangerous to leave the Pre-gens as an option and should be removed all together.

Someone commented way back about modules only giving 4 PP for a whole level of XP when scenarios give 6.

The initial thought was to give 6, but consider the following:

For each scenario you earn 1 PP by completing the scenario successfully and 1 for a successful faction mission.

Modules give 3 PP just for playing them. There is no success condition. Play a module alll the way through and get 3 PP. Period.

Modules do not have faction missions. But you get 1 "faction" PP just for playing the module.

So it's like getting 4 PP just for showing up. Also, it is possible to not get any PP in a scenario. So it was left at 4 PP to be more in line with the average PP progression in scenarios.

Thanks for making that point. The wording will be corrected to make it more clear.

Quote:

might as well remove the Pre-gens all the way since that is not an option anyway

I'm sorry, but I have to respond to the pervasive misrepresentation of the pregens as "unplayable." I have had numerous opportunities to play higher level pregens and, as yet, have not died a single time and enjoyed every opportunity. I have also had numerous casual players use a pregen at my tables and with only a couple of exceptions, they have done very well.

We all agree that they are not optimized builds as most players would create a character, but that hardly makes them "not an option." If you choose not to use one when the opportunity presents itself, that is your choice. However, the pregens are what you make of them, just like any other character build.

You must have been very Lucky, Because I can't see a Group of 4 Level 7 Pre-gens surviving the Final encounter of The Harrowing.

The Pre-Gens are garbage.

Edit: The Vast Majority of my PC Kills in games where Pre-Gens.

Making modules playable and credit to be received by any level character is a joke and never should have been instituted. Making modules have no real death penalty and no worries about consumable expenditure are both jokes and never should have been instituted.

That is going to change one way or another. That is the direction I want to go.

Is this up for discussion, Michael, or is it a done deal?

I've GMed three and played in four of the sanctioned modules so far. Judging by what others have posted, it seems that we have a very active local group when it comes to sanctioned modules.

Our local group really enjoys these sessions, and the reason we are able to enjoy them so much is because we are able to create groups of both veterans and newbies. Taking away the ability to create PCs for the module will sharply curtail our ability to do that.

I don't know how we'll cope. I don't know whether we'll end up playing less PFS if this changes. I do know that if this change is made, the fun that we have now will not be available anymore.

-Matt

And we are looking at some different ways to fix the pregens. It is not an overnight fix and I'm trying to get things fixed as quickly as possible.

Someone commented way back about modules only giving 4 PP for a whole level of XP when scenarios give 6.

The initial thought was to give 6, but consider the following:

For each scenario you earn 1 PP by completing the scenario successfully and 1 for a successful faction mission.

Modules give 3 PP just for playing them. There is no success condition. Play a module alll the way through and get 3 PP. Period.

Modules do not have faction missions. But you get 1 "faction" PP just for playing the module.

So it's like getting 4 PP just for showing up. Also, it is possible to not get any PP in a scenario. So it was left at 4 PP to be more in line with the average PP progression in scenarios.

You technically get full prestige for module by accord with the rate prestige is supposed to be gained. It was said many times by Joshua that a character shouldn't get the full 2 PA for every scenario. Modules are based on getting the average of 1.5 PA that Josh stated was the benchmark. I realize that most experienced players, including myself, do in fact get 6 PA every 3 XP, but that is technically above average and requires doing well at what your faction represents.

Some food for thought.

I was Assuming the PA reward would go up to 6PA because of the Increased Risk. If it is 4 PA that makes it even less likely I would run them since the players would get more out of Scenarios, which seems OK by Mike anyway.

And we are looking at some different ways to fix the pregens. It is not an overnight fix and I'm trying to get things fixed as quickly as possible.

They don't have to be over Optimized but they do need to be able to Survive.

Sometimes the Pre-Gens seemed to have been made to make the worse choices they could make..;)

Michael Brock wrote:

Making modules playable and credit to be received by any level character is a joke and never should have been instituted. Making modules have no real death penalty and no worries about consumable expenditure are both jokes and never should have been instituted.

That is going to change one way or another. That is the direction I want to go.

Is this up for discussion, Michael, or is it a done deal?

I've GMed three and played in four of the sanctioned modules so far. Judging by what others have posted, it seems that we have a very active local group when it comes to sanctioned modules.

Our local group really enjoys these sessions, and the reason we are able to enjoy them so much is because we are able to create groups of both veterans and newbies. Taking away the ability to create PCs for the module will sharply curtail our ability to do that.

I don't know how we'll cope. I don't know whether we'll end up playing less PFS if this changes. I do know that if this change is made, the fun that we have now will not be available anymore.

-Matt

Has your group played all 88 scenarios? It isn't a snarky question. It is me trying to find out why people are running out of options of things to play. If you play the modules at the level they are written for, you can start a level 1 character and advance to 11 level without ever playing a scenario. In Atlanta last year, we ran 3-12 tables of PFS in 49 of 52 weekends at 8 different lcations. We never had a problem finding a scenario for people to play in and rarely scheduled modules. If we ran more than 450 tabes sat year without turning anyone away and no one playing scenarios for free, I need to know why other areas with less reported sessions don't have any options. I'm truly baffled at how some areas have no options left to run and I honestly want to know what is going on thatis leading to this.

Though I am still in this conversation and giving advice with what we got, my Mind has not Changed. I am very Disappointed we are going away from being able to Use Modules for Groups that have a huge Disparity of levels.

What bothers me is people are proposing the modules stay the same or we make them even more lenient than the current rules. The larger percentage of the playerbase wishes to have modules have more meaning and not seem worthless to play, with the only reason to play them to play catch up with character levels and the like.

I'm trying to find a delicate balance here and I appreciate the input thus far.

I think that the main argument I have read for not making death "real" or expecting consumables to be paid for is that the mods are too tough for PFS characters having been designed for normal play. I can see the point but on balance I don't feel that is a good enough reason.

The other issue is only allowing Pre-Gens if there is not a technically eligible real PC and only the Offical ones in any case. Plus applying chrons only when the linked PC reaches the point they could have played

I won't repeat ad nauseam why I think allowing catch up is a practical benefit. I detect in your post, Mike, the idea that people doing this are somehow viewing the mod as "worthless". Nothing of the sort, I promise!!!. A break from level 1-2 characters for the first time since August was considered rather special! It also allowed the newest player to reach 3rd and so join in some higher level fun next year!

Have pity on those of us trying to grow our player base by allowing mods to be used this way but pls pls do make the character used linked to one that a player has put time into i.e. a "real" character.

W

And we are looking at some different ways to fix the pregens. It is not an overnight fix and I'm trying to get things fixed as quickly as possible.

I've had a larger number of new players the last few weeks, and have had to dip into the pre-gens quite a bit at levels 1, 4 and 7. They are not optimal, but then they are not supposed to be. I've been considering how to make them better should the possibility ever come up.

Unfortunately, I haven't had any good ideas yet. Maybe a chunk of gold that is not spent but rather allocated for consumables chosen from a list at the beginning of the adventure. Allowing players to choose prepared spells from spellbook/familiar/formula book would be helpful for experienced players but would require too much strategy for a new player.

Has your group played all 88 scenarios? It isn't a snarky question. It is me trying to find out why people are running out of options of things to play. If you play the modules at the level they are written for, you can start a level 1 character and advance to 11 level without ever playing a scenario. In Atlanta last year, we ran 3-12 tables of PFS in 49 of 52 weekends at 8 different lcations. We never had a problem finding a scenario for people to play in and rarely scheduled modules. If we ran more than 450 tabes sat year without turning anyone away and no one playing scenarios for free, I need to know why other areas with less reported sessions don't have any options. I'm truly baffled at how some areas have no options left to run and I honestly want to know what is going on thatis leading to this.

I will give you an Example Mike..

Our High Level Scenarios are fully Open, but Because I keep getting new players and the old players keep having to make new PCs to play with the new players, the Old players are running out of Scenarios to play because they can't play the Higher Level ones because I don't have enough PCs of that Level. Which as an example the Old Module rules where good a chipping at.

The Problem is not Running out of All the scenarios to play The Problem is My Veteran players are running out of 1-7 level Scenarios to play and the New players can't play the 5-11 level scenarios.

Edit: It is getting harder to Schedule my Scenarios to pick ones that no one has played.

Edit Edit: My Players have an Average of 3.5 PCs because they keep on having to make new Level 1s. The Highest Level PC is mine at 10 But I have played the Longest, I have 6 PCs about to make my 7th.

Now, for the constructive phase:

It appears we have two opposing issues here:
-Ability to put on a game regardless of the players' PC levels.
-Desire to make modules "count," with regard to death, consumable use, etc.

So, an ideal solution here would take the best of both worlds, i.e. maintain the modules' accessibility as well as make them "count." These two issues are not, in actuality, entirely oppositional.

One issue with the sanctioned modules as they are is that PCs who receive their Chronicles receive less gold and Fame as they would have from going through three PFS scenarios. Michael has indicated that the gold issue will be remedied by reissuing the Chronicles for the sanctioned modules. (What about the Fame issue, Michael?)

Michael has also indicated that he wishes to make the rules for running sanctioned modules as simple as possible, meaning that they will differ as little as possible from regular PFS play.

I will propose a solution, then:
Players who do not play a "legitimate" PC through a sanctioned module receive one-half of the indicated XP, GP, and Fame, awarded to an existing PFS PC of their choice; these PCs receive rewards as if they were using the Slow advancement track. In this way, "the gold math" is already on the Chronicle.

This solution is very simple, elegant, and sufficient to address all of the presented concerns. The sanctioned modules maintain their accessibility, while incentivizing playing them with an at-level PC.

-Matt

Though I am still in this conversation and giving advice with what we got, my Mind has not Changed. I am very Disappointed we are going away from being able to Use Modules for Groups that have a huge Disparity of levels.

You've stated players wont play for no credit in your area. You stated that new players play with pregens so they can play with vet players. Once the vet players have played everything, what happens to the new players in your area? It sounds like they have unread their one chance to play that character at appropriate level for the module. The vets aren't going to replay anything for no credit. So, what happens to all these new players? The level disparity is still there because the vet applies the module 3xps to his character and advances another level, still keeping him out of range of the new player who just advanced to level 2. I'm really trying to understand the crux of our player base problems with level disparity as I never ran into this problem in Atlanta. Any insight is appreciated.

You must have been very Lucky...The Pre-Gens are garbage

Perhaps your pregen players were unlucky? Or played with less skill? Who knows. My point is that there are different experiences with the pregens. To simply dismiss them as an option is irresponsible. It's no different than calling a player's character "garbage" because it is under-optimized.

Because I can't see a Group of 4 Level 7 Pre-gens surviving the Final encounter of The Harrowing.

I am not familiar with the specifics of The Harrowing having neither played it nor been asked to GM it. That being said, there never was an intention of a small group of four pregens be the entire party. The pregens are fill-in characters, largely to use when a casual player wants to play with a group of regulars. If players are actively using them as equivalent replacements, en masse, for scenarios or modules, then they are not using them as intended.

Michael Brock wrote:

Has your group played all 88 scenarios? It isn't a snarky question. It is me trying to find out why people are running out of options of things to play. If you play the modules at the level they are written for, you can start a level 1 character and advance to 11 level without ever playing a scenario. In Atlanta last year, we ran 3-12 tables of PFS in 49 of 52 weekends at 8 different lcations. We never had a problem finding a scenario for people to play in and rarely scheduled modules. If we ran more than 450 tabes sat year without turning anyone away and no one playing scenarios for free, I need to know why other areas with less reported sessions don't have any options. I'm truly baffled at how some areas have no options left to run and I honestly want to know what is going on thatis leading to this.

I will give you an Example Mike..

Our High Level Scenarios are fully Open, but Because I keep getting new players and the old players keep having to make new PCs to play with the new players, the Old players are running out of Scenarios to play because they can't play the Higher Level ones because I don't have enough PCs of that Level. Which as an example the Old Module rules where good a chipping at.

The Problem is not Running out of All the scenarios to play The Problem is My Veteran players are running out of 1-7 level Scenarios to play and the New players can't play the 5-11 level scenarios.

Edit: It is getting harder to Schedule my Scenarios to pick ones that no one has played.

Edit Edit: My Players have an Average of 3.5 PCs because they keep on having to make new Level 1s. The Highest Level PC is mine at 10 But I have played the Longest, I have 6 PCs about to make my 7th.

Then why not group 4-6 new players together and let them play together,while grouping your vets together to play higher levels. Why are you constantly mixing them? I don't understand.

You've stated players wont play for no credit in your area. You stated that new players play with pregens so they can play with vet players. Once the vet players have played everything, what happens to the new players in your area? It sounds like they have unread their one chance to play that character at appropriate level for the module. The vets aren't going to replay anything for no credit. So, what happens to all these new players? The level disparity is still there because the vet applies the module 3xps to his character and advances another level, still keeping him out of range of the new player who just advanced to level 2. I'm really trying to understand the crux of our player base problems with level disparity as I never ran into this problem in Atlanta. Any insight is appreciated.

I never Said they Play Pre-Gens to play with New Players, I said they make new Level 1s to play with New Players.. They won't Touch a Pre-Gen unless they have no other Choice, or we are short a Player.

This is How it Works, or How at least I advice my PCs with the Modules, that they don't use them for the High level PCs but for the Low Level ones, while the New players use them to Raise closer to level 5.

Once I have more Players at Level 5, my Options will open, but Currently that has been difficult. The Modules should not make the Disparity Worse as long as they Don't add the Credit to their High level PCs.

Then why not group 4-6 new players together and let them play together,while grouping your vets together to play higher levels. Why are you constantly mixing them? I don't understand.

I have More New Players then old players, and Most of My Veterans are also GMs which takes them out of Playing sometimes.

Level 5 has been the breaking point, and I have been getting closer to clearing that, but every time I think I broke that point More new players show Up, A Veteran can't show, etc.

I am on that edge right now where it will clear, but I can imagine other groups having similar problems or worse.

Edit: And it will start all over again once I get to the 7-11 scenarios..

How many total players do you have Dragnmoon? I don't understand why the higher level PCs have to constantly start over.

Then why not group 4-6 new players together and let them play together,while grouping your vets together to play higher levels. Why are you constantly mixing them? I don't understand.

When I get new players they come alone or groups of two. Rather than turn them away the higher level players are happy to switch to their lower level characters to allow them to play. They are less enthusiastic about continuing replaying scenarios many times for players that may not come back.

My game however is small with only with three or four consistant players that show up and a number of players that have passed through for a few scenarios.

Has your group played all 88 scenarios? It isn't a snarky question. It is me trying to find out why people are running out of options of things to play.

We are not running out of things to play; we have simply realized that we enjoy the sanctioned modules very much, and we are able to enjoy them because under the current participation rules they are very accessible.

-Matt

Yes! There are other mods available but if the players' levels are disparate the options remain perennially playing at the lowest available (and if a new fella joins....)or do a mod to bring up the guys at the bottom without the older guys getting sick of low level fare.

*shrug*

If you have 4-5 8th-9th level characters and a 7th level pregen or two then Ebon destroyers will probably work. The average party level is right in line with the intended level of the module. If your whole party is below average and you are running 3 pregens... you will probably all die. IMO that's just fine, the game should be tough when you are all below the recommended level.

The fact that it discourages tables with a large number of non-level appropriate characters is IMO a benefit. I enjoy play far more when I'm playing an 'actual & at level' character at a table full of other like characters.

Maybe I'm getting distracted by the IMO bizarre pairing of under-level actual characters with under-level pregens. Can you make your point using an example I can sympathize with a little more?

Dragnmoon wrote:

Though I am still in this conversation and giving advice with what we got, my Mind has not Changed. I am very Disappointed we are going away from being able to Use Modules for Groups that have a huge Disparity of levels.

You've stated players wont play for no credit in your area. You stated that new players play with pregens so they can play with vet players. Once the vet players have played everything, what happens to the new players in your area? It sounds like they have unread their one chance to play that character at appropriate level for the module. The vets aren't going to replay anything for no credit. So, what happens to all these new players? The level disparity is still there because the vet applies the module 3xps to his character and advances another level, still keeping him out of range of the new player who just advanced to level 2. I'm really trying to understand the crux of our player base problems with level disparity as I never ran into this problem in Atlanta. Any insight is appreciated.

I will try. You come from a place where 450 tables were run last year. I come from place where there is a tiny base. I am over the moon that we will for the first time on Saturday coming have 2 or possibly even 3 tables!!! Most of the ppl playing will be new. We're doing First Steps. I have run part 1 6 times now. I could run it or MoTFF without reference to the paper work. Probably while asleep.

For the core group we managed to get some charcters upto 5th level around a year ago but PaizoCon UK excepted, with ppl joining and leaving the group all the mods since the have been at lowest Tier. Plus going to England is actually quite expensive for us.

If you play a mod where everyone makes a new PC and the new guy puts the XP onto his or her highest PFS character but the ones with "higher level" characters put it onto one of their lowbies then maybe the group can struggle out of only playing low tier games while having the fun of playing a higher tier module as an occasional treat!

Does that clarify at all?

When I get new players they come alone or groups of two. Rather than turn them away the higher level players are happy to switch to their lower level characters to allow them to play. They are less enthusiastic about continuing replaying scenarios many times for players that may not come back.

So you have one or two new players at every game day? If so, then after three game days, why not try to schedule those 4-6 players together so they can play the same lower level scenarios? This frees up the higher levels to play higher scenarios.

What happens when you use all 15 modules and credit goes to lower level PCs? When you are out of modules, what is your plan?

We are not running out of things to play; we have simply realized that we enjoy the sanctioned modules very much, and we are able to enjoy them because under the current participation rules they are very accessible.

-Matt

Scenarios are the heart and soul of PFS, not modules. Sanctioned modules are a bonus thrown onto PFS that allowed people who were running out of scenarios to play an additional option. What happens if we don't sanction any more modules for a year so we can focus on other areas of PFS?

I must say that I like the changes. This falls right in line with what my fellow players want in discussions I've had with them on the topic. We like to see modules as "special events" that our characters can work up to and play when they are level appropriate.

Myself and fellow players never did like the idea of playing with a "leveled-up" PC just for one module. This was one of the reasons some of us stopped playing Living Forgotten Realms and going to conventions. First, the player had no attachment to his PC therefore was just there to "roll dice for his AR." Also, a lot of times somebody didn't have their character made. So they made a 9th level PC on the fly and had no clue how to use them properly. If you think the Pre-gen PC are bad, it can be worse with a player who doesn't know how to use a higher level PC or forgot something during the creation process. The DM sure knows how to use his monsters but if 1/2 the players don't know how to use their PCs to their full potential, it can be deadly. Also keep in mind, a good majority of PFS games are with a different group of people each session. So not are you having to work within a new group of Players, but those players have to work with a new Character.

I do realize that their are exceptions to what I've stated above. To expand on Swiftbrook's example, if you are just going to make a higher level PC for one module does it matter if its within PFS guidelines? Besides obtaining a PFS chronicle, what is stopping somebody from "creating the character and trying out some new things." In the end, its just a one shot game. You can do this anytime with anybody. That same fun Gen-Con event could have happened all the same.

Boss-man Brock, these are good guidelines that will work to streamline play in PFS. Don't listen or cower to the voical minority. The company across the lake starting doing that and now we are over here playing with ya'll. Modules should be seen as a treat, an exception. It shouldn't have to be a focus of resources that takes away from the overall living storyline of Pathfinder Society & its scenarios.

I really just rambled on for a bit in my first post in the thread, I had a few question that I think just got lost in there.

Specifically, if I want to run a high level module (while granting any PFS chronicles), do all players have to be legal Pathfinder Society characters or can four players use PFS characters (and get the chronicle at the end of the scenario) while the fifth makes a 8th level character with level appropriate gear (and possibly options that aren't available for PFS like magic item crafting feats) for no credit?

In addition, I recalled a discussion a while back about not allowing player to play in scenarios for credit after previously playing in them with pregens. I wanted to know if there was any thought or plan to barred players from getting credit in PFS sanctioned modules if they had already played in them without credit.

How many total players do you have Dragnmoon? I don't understand why the higher level PCs have to constantly start over.

On a Very Good day *Which has not been recent* I have 19 current players, on most games say about 10 of those show up.

Attendance has been a bit lower recently due to other commitments and the Holidays but that should clear after the Holidays.

I have What I consider maybe 4 Veterans including myself, I have had other Players that Have reached above level 5 But they are not currently Active Players.

Of those 4 Veterans, 3 of us are GMs, the 4th realizing he is about to run out of games to play decided he will start GMing as well.

There is another issue at play as well.

There is a common practice of Not playing Down, instead of playing down the player would rather make a New PC so the higher level PC would not be negatively effected.

All this adds up to the problem I am having.

I will try. You come from a place where 450 tables were run last year. I come from place where there is a tiny base. I am over the moon that we will for the first time on Saturday coming have 2 or possibly even 3 tables!!! Most of the ppl playing will be new. We're doing First Steps. I have run part 1 6 times now. I could run it or MoTFF without reference to the paper work. Probably while asleep.

For the core group we managed to get some charcters upto 5th level around a year ago but PaizoCon UK excepted, with ppl joining and leaving the group all the mods since the have been at lowest Tier. Plus going to England is actually quite expensive for us.

If you play a mod where everyone makes a new PC and the new guy puts the XP onto his or her highest PFS character but the ones with "higher level" characters put it onto one of their lowbies then maybe the group can struggle out of only playing low tier games while having the fun...

What happens when you run all sanctioned modules, the core group,has played them all and can't replay for credit, and new people join. What are you planning to do then? There isn't an endless supply of modules or scenarios to play, and once you apply them all to low level characters, where do you go from there as an event organizer?

Scenarios are the heart and soul of PFS, not modules. Sanctioned modules are a bonus thrown onto PFS that allowed people who were running out of scenarios to play an additional option. What happens if we don't sanction any more modules for a year so we can focus on other areas of PFS?

It does not matter in this discussion that they are bonuses, that they are not the heart and soul of PFS. What does matter is that the sanctioned modules' accessibility, which is what enables us to enjoy them so much, is being threatened.

I have already proposed a simple solution which will maintain accessibility while tackling the problem of a lack of incentive to play an at-level PFS PC through them.

There is a better way, Michael.

-Matt

heretic wrote:

Yes! There are other mods available but if the players' levels are disparate the options remain perennially playing at the lowest available (and if a new fella joins....)or do a mod to bring up the guys at the bottom without the older guys getting sick of low level fare.

*shrug*

If you have 4-5 8th-9th level characters and a 7th level pregen or two then Ebon destroyers will probably work. The average party level is right in line with the intended level of the module. If your whole party is below average and you are running 3 pregens... you will probably all die. IMO that's just fine, the game should be tough when you are all below the recommended level.

The fact that it discourages tables with a large number of non-level appropriate characters is IMO a benefit. I enjoy play far more when I'm playing an 'actual & at level' character at a table full of other like characters.

Maybe I'm getting distracted by the IMO bizarre pairing of under-level actual characters with under-level pregens. Can you make your point using an example I can sympathize with a little more?

I am assure I am not solicting your sympathy. I will risk explaining though I feel I am stating the obvious& I mistrust situations where I am asked to do so as I cannot really doubt but you fully grasp my point , rather you just don't agree with it!

If you have a core of players who have in this case 2 guys with barely eligible toons and the 2 more with nothing over 5th and then 2 more with level 1 or 2 max, then the first 4 will be playing their lowbie characters. All the time. If a new fella joins and or someone quits again the convoy will move at the speed of it 'lowest ship!

Someone buy Ebon Flame becuase it is a great mod and because it would allow one of new guys to level up a PC to allow them to get closer to a point where real PCs can play at higher than low tier. Plus a timely break from low lvl play

W

Michael Brock wrote:

Scenarios are the heart and soul of PFS, not modules. Sanctioned modules are a bonus thrown onto PFS that allowed people who were running out of scenarios to play an additional option. What happens if we don't sanction any more modules for a year so we can focus on other areas of PFS?

It does not matter in this discussion that they are bonuses, that they are not the heart and soul of PFS. What does matter is that the sanctioned modules' accessibility, which is what enables us to enjoy them so much, is being threatened.

I have already proposed a simple solution which will maintain accessibility while tackling the problem of a lack of incentive to play an at-level PFS PC through them.

There is a better way, Michael.

-Matt

It matters to me and a large percentage of the player base that scenarios are the heart and soul. Afterall, it is what we produce. What happens when your group finishes with all the modules? There aren't that many to begin with. Are you going to stop playing after 15 games? And no, that is not snarky. It is an honest question I need insight on.

Blazej wrote:

When I get new players they come alone or groups of two. Rather than turn them away the higher level players are happy to switch to their lower level characters to allow them to play. They are less enthusiastic about continuing replaying scenarios many times for players that may not come back.

So you have one or two new players at every game day? If so, then after three game days, why not try to schedule those 4-6 players together so they can play the same lower level scenarios? This frees up the higher levels to play higher scenarios.

What happens when you use all 15 modules and credit goes to lower level PCs? When you are out of modules, what is your plan?

I don't really plan as much as play things by ear.

It isn't one or two players every game day though, they come much more infrequently than that and hang around a play for a few weeks, then never come back without any indication of why. Given the number of times this has happened though, these types are walk ins aren't really the sort that I would try to include in a module as their first or second session just because the turn over is so high.

Really though, it is largely a problem of scale of interest in the area and my inability to do enough with my time to draw more people to it rather than a lack of low-level scenarios. I just wanted to explain how it was in my group that the prolific players kept mixing with newly created characters.

to give you more Insight...

I run 4 games every other weekend 3 level 1-7 scenarios and 1 Level 5-9 scenario.

What sucks about the Level 5-9 Scenarios is that most of the Time I only have 3 Players, Because I am GMing and another player that could join us is also GMing so that is 2 players out. We have a Pile of Dead Pre-Gens..;)

My Goal is to sooner or Later have only 2 1-7 Scenarios 1 5-9 Scenario and 1 7-11 Scenario. We have been playing since June 09 and the Highest Level PC other then mine is Level 9, luckily he has another Level 5 when his Level 9 gets to Level 10.

It matters to me and a large percentage of the player base that scenarios are the heart and soul. Afterall, it is what we produce. What happens when your group finishes with all the modules? There aren't that many to begin with. Are you going to stop playing after 15 games? And no, that is not snarky. It is an honest question I need insight on.

I assume that Paizo is not planning to stop releasing 32-page modules? The steady stream should keep us gaming for a good while. If we ever do run out, we will cross that bridge when we get there.

-Matt

What happens when you run all sanctioned modules, the core group,has played them all and can't replay for credit, and new people join. What are you planning to do then? There isn't an endless supply of modules or scenarios to play, and once you apply them all to low level characters, where do you go from there as an event organizer?

They they Stop Playing them and I mostly have the New players Play them to help catch up or the Old players can GM them. So far Only I have been GMing them.

Remember I don't use the Module for my Regular game but lets say Extra Credit when we have a Holiday Weekend.

What happens when you run all sanctioned modules, the core group,has played them all and can't replay for credit, and new people join. What are you planning to do then? There isn't an endless supply of modules or scenarios to play, and once you apply them all to low level characters, where do you go from there as an event organizer?

Mike

No disresect intended. I don't follow. Maybe it is lack of sleep, maybe I am just getting old and dumb!

Surely, there is not an endless supply of mods or scenarios and indeed I am not sure there are any year 0 we can play at low tier. Given that there is a finite supply using them as deftly as I can seems wise! If running the occasional mod to allow a group of players to catch up so we can use some of the finite resource of scenarios with no low tier, surely that increases the resources available?

W

One other Thing, Since not everyone Signs up for the Games, and show up anyway *Which annoys me to no end!!!* I have to assume that every player is going to show so my scheduling needs to work out that someone can play in at least 1 of the Morning Scenarios and 1 of the Afternoon. That has been becoming very difficult recently, though like I said once more of my regular new players I have are able play Level 5-9 that will fix a Lot.

Michael Brock wrote:

It matters to me and a large percentage of the player base that scenarios are the heart and soul. Afterall, it is what we produce. What happens when your group finishes with all the modules? There aren't that many to begin with. Are you going to stop playing after 15 games? And no, that is not snarky. It is an honest question I need insight on.

I assume that Paizo is not planning to stop releasing 32-page modules? The steady stream should keep us gaming for a good while. If we ever do run out, we will cross that bridge when we get there.

-Matt

We've released 16 PFRPG modules over the past two years. We have released more than 50 PFS scenarios in that time. Even if we continue to release 8 per year, at the most, you will run out sooner rather than later.