Ultimate Magic: Witches and Wizards

If your Sorceress has 18 int then what are her other stats?

Not as great as they could have been. But this isn't relevant to the thread.

The point is: There's nothing systemwise that mandates that sorcerers be brainless fonts of magic. They have spellcraft and knowledge (arcana) as class skills. They can know how magic works, too. So saying that these feats are restricted by knowledge of magic's workings doesn't help. If that were so, the prerequisite would be spellcraft or knowledge (arcana) ranks.

Kvantum wrote:

Why +2 to Will saves for a hedgehog?

Because the Hedgehog's Dilemma keeps people from getting close to you. =3

To be fair to him, though, the hedgehog does have a unique anatomical advantage which is not shared by any other animal - giraffes, elephants, geese, etc.

In fact, I wrote a little song about it ...

My what big teeth you have ...

Daji (Feiya's familiar) makes quite the snarly little foxy, doesn't he?

For that matter he looks more the size of a coyote than a fox. I'm guessing that being a familiar makes animals a trifle larger than normal. That or Feiya cast a spell like animal growth on him.

Great art, great teaser for Ultimate Magic.

like the ne patrons...like the new familiars...

The arcane discoveries...is something I am meh on.

Of course would like to see it all before for final judgement, but from what I see of it I think it is...unneccessary addition to the game. Wizards does not not need new toys exclusive to them.

The 1 minute prep time for empty slots is TOO nice. Of a advantage....definitly not worth a feat. And the potential for abuse with Multimorph is rather large...again too powerful for a feat.

I am hoping that there is some sort of additional cost tacked on...or there is a second paragrapgh for both them that limits them in a way. As it stands now I probably will not be allowing them in games I run. I am ok with that. I am not complaining about their inclusion...I just hope the other arcane discoveries are...more balanced to what a feat gives you.

I have a feeling that with the release of Ultimate Magic, we may finally get to see Feiya's background story. The Winter patron release in addition to the picture above... And isn't she from the same general area as Amiri? Up north somewhere?

The thing about the wizard discoveries doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I am not a fan of wizards and understand them to be disproportionately more powerful as they increase in level, so this addition is merely a drop in the bucket in my mind. The strong get stronger, the rich get richer, that sort of thing.

If everyone (magically inclined) gets similarly balanced options in this book, then the power curve moves little. If the wizards got very little in this book and fighters got more material to help balance them with wizards, then everyone would lose their minds, because it's a book FOR magic-users. Look for Ultimate Combat to help alleviate some of your fears for balance before crying out. After all, it's only a preview. There may be other factors going on that make you say "Wow, wizards got RIPPED."

Dragon78 wrote:

If your Sorceress has 18 int then what are her other stats?

Not as great as they could have been. But this isn't relevant to the thread.

The point is: There's nothing systemwise that mandates that sorcerers be brainless fonts of magic. They have spellcraft and knowledge (arcana) as class skills. They can know how magic works, too. So saying that these feats are restricted by knowledge of magic's workings doesn't help. If that were so, the prerequisite would be spellcraft or knowledge (arcana) ranks.

Sorcerers got a ton of love compared to Wizards in the APG and in the Core Rules set. Wizards are due something that they call thier own, and my apologies to the 18 Int Sorceress out there, but you still skipped out on classes, the book work, and the hard research work compared to my 18 Int Wizard, otherwise you'd be a Wizard, not a more intelligent than average savant.

Berselius wrote:

Also, I'd really love to see some Sorcerer pimp-age. They're gonna have a hard time competing with Fast Study unless something good comes out for them.

Won't happen. Sorcerers are the red-headed stepchildren of pathfinder.

I mean compared to any other spontaneous caster they stink, and compared to other full casters they stink even more. The human bonus from the APG just barely keeps them in the running as casters.

please go on, cause this is totally not the case at all. maybe you should play a sorcerer sometime and see that this is not the case.

but i do agree with some of the other posts that i would love to see some new viable options (other than bloodlines) for sorcerers.

If the wizards got very little in this book and fighters got more material to help balance them with wizards, then everyone would lose their minds, because it's a book FOR magic-users.

This is true. I wait for UC to see a fighters able to switch feats on the fly. :D

moreover, "it's for wizards" is not a good argument sorry. It's something able to potentially increase the flexibility of a class in a disproportionate manner.

The same is the multimorph. I have my feeling, but i wait to see this book and UC.

I have noticed several people mentioning "possible abuses" with multimorph. To this, I must ask: "Like what?"

You have to give up a feat to gain the ability, and it's potential power seems to be in line with that of a feat, so I'm failing to see the problem.

All it does is give you a little extra versatility. Now Beast Shape IV can turn you into several beasts in a single casting. All those forms somehow proving useful to you with such a short(er) duration, however, is another matter entirely.

The fact that it reduces your overall duration AND requires a standard action to switch forms kind of insures that it stays relatively balanced.

omg! OMG! OMG! OMG! omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!
*** Passes out***

Dragon78 wrote:

If your Sorceress has 18 int then what are her other stats?

Not as great as they could have been. But this isn't relevant to the thread.

The point is: There's nothing systemwise that mandates that sorcerers be brainless fonts of magic. They have spellcraft and knowledge (arcana) as class skills. They can know how magic works, too. So saying that these feats are restricted by knowledge of magic's workings doesn't help. If that were so, the prerequisite would be spellcraft or knowledge (arcana) ranks.

Sorcerers do study some of the same skills, but they don't study magic to the extent the wizards do. And in this case I'm referring to the study that's represented by class choice the innate class aiblities. Wizards gain their magic by constant study, literally learning each spell word by word, letter by letter, gesture by gesture. For Sorcerer's that power comes innately by blood, by inheritance, or by exposure to weird stuff.

It is rather presumptive and cheaply dismissive of study to claim that sorcerer research magic the same way wizards do. They don't. that's why their command of magic, while flexible in it's own way is limited. that's why there are fixed bounds of spell knowledge.

I have noticed several people mentioning "possible abuses" with multimorph. To this, I must ask: "Like what?"

You have to give up a feat to gain the ability, and it's potential power seems to be in line with that of a feat, so I'm failing to see the problem.

All it does is give you a little extra versatility. Now Beast Shape IV can turn you into several beasts in a single casting. All those forms somehow proving useful to you with such a short(er) duration, however, is another matter entirely.

The fact that it reduces your overall duration AND requires a standard action to switch forms kind of insures that it stays relatively balanced.

Time will tell. As now, I want to put my dirty hands on both UM and UC books. Already have a lot of stuff interesting for sure.

nevertheless, these are a sort of "test" in my eyes (three eyes, in the case you wonder) because I want to see if trends (both positive and negative, most positive) I've seen in APG are mantainded for the good or the bad.

Surprise me, Paizo ;)

It is rather presumptive and cheaply dismissive of study to claim that sorcerer research magic the same way wizards do. They don't. that's why their command of magic, while flexible in it's own way is limited. that's why there are fixed bounds of spell knowledge.

You're right, it's cheap. Wizards get to learn a spell and know what it does immediately becuase they read the scroll they got it off of, or they've seen it before. Not once do they have to worry about mixing up the Resist Energy they were about to cast on their friend with Fireball because they are both spells that deal with fire.

Mechanically, there is nothing to support my claim, but I'm okay with that. It's a flavor thing that makes sense.

omg! OMG! OMG! OMG! omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!

*** Passes out***

Eloquently stated. ;)

@Ravingdork - Maybe I'm misinterpreting the way Polymorph Any Object interacts with the Multimorph feat, but from my understanding, when the spell potentially has a duration of 12 hours, 2 days, 1 week, or permanent, sacrificing 1 minute of duration seems overpowered in that context.

...and again, maybe it doesn't work that way. Tell me otherwise?

hida_jiremi wrote:

Kvantum wrote:

Why +2 to Will saves for a hedgehog?

Because the Hedgehog's Dilemma keeps people from getting close to you. =3

To be fair to him, though, the hedgehog does have a unique anatomical advantage which is not shared by any other animal - giraffes, elephants, geese, etc.

In fact, I wrote a little song about it ...

I assume you refer to the simple fact that a hedgehog my son can't be buggered at all.

omg! OMG! OMG! OMG! omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!

*** Passes out***

Quick! Somebody get that guy 50 cc's of coffee! His supply's run out!

@Ravingdork - Maybe I'm misinterpreting the way Polymorph Any Object interacts with the Multimorph feat, but from my understanding, when the spell potentially has a duration of 12 hours, 2 days, 1 week, or permanent, sacrificing 1 minute of duration seems overpowered in that context.

...and again, maybe it doesn't work that way. Tell me otherwise?

Hmm...didn't think of that. Still, that seems par for the course for 15th-level and up. I'd put that particular combo up there with some of the nastier spell perfection combos. It's about time transmuters got nice things.

Abraham spalding wrote:

Berselius wrote:

Also, I'd really love to see some Sorcerer pimp-age. They're gonna have a hard time competing with Fast Study unless something good comes out for them.

Won't happen. Sorcerers are the red-headed stepchildren of pathfinder.

I mean compared to any other spontaneous caster they stink, and compared to other full casters they stink even more. The human bonus from the APG just barely keeps them in the running as casters.

please go on, cause this is totally not the case at all. maybe you should play a sorcerer sometime and see that this is not the case.

but i do agree with some of the other posts that i would love to see some new viable options (other than bloodlines) for sorcerers.

Don't know me much do you? I do play sorcerers.

I will stand by my statement. Compared to all other full 9th level casters sorcerers are shafted.

Druids: All spells known, limited spontaneous casting, domain (or AC) better base statistics, earlier spell access, other special abilities, armored casting, better casting stat

Clerics: Better base statistics, channel energy, two domains, earlier spell access, limited spontaneous casting, complete access to spell list, armored casting, better casting stat

Oracles: Better base statistics, more special powers, capstone, earlier bonus spells known, extra spells known (either healing or inflicting), access to special powers through feats, "curse" bonuses, armored casting

Witch: Earlier spell access, extra supernatural powers, patron for abnormal spell access, better casting stat, possibility of knowing all spells

Wizard: Specialization, bonuses feats (3 more than the sorcerer gets), better casting stat, possible limited spontaneous casting or a familiar, 3 special abilities plus small 'kicker' ability based on school, scribe scroll creating ability to have virtually unlimited spell access, possibility of knowing all spells.

Also all the prepared casters can use pearls of power which the sorcerer doesn't have an equivalent to. At the odd levels the prepared casters typically have more spells per day, and are generally only a single spell per day per spell level on the even levels.

Now please do not misunderstand me: I am not saying sorcerers are horrible. They are not horrible. However they are not as good as the other full 9th level spell casting classes either.

Sorcerers are 'spontaneous' casters that typically only have a single spell of their highest spell level at any time. That is not 'spontaneous' casting -- that is "I can cast this spell 4 times a day".

There is no choice involved with that. Heck the oracle has 3 spells known when they first get their spell level -- the bard has 2 spells known when he gets his new spell level. The sorcerer has a single spell known.

He gains a total of 3 bonus feats, and 5 powers of generally lacking strength -- typically two blasty abilities that are limited to either bad damage or 1xper day effects, and a movement ability/slight(and growing) immunities. I agree his capstones are nice in general -- but then so are the oracles, the wizards, the witches, and the druids.

@Ravingdork - Maybe I'm misinterpreting the way Polymorph Any Object interacts with the Multimorph feat, but from my understanding, when the spell potentially has a duration of 12 hours, 2 days, 1 week, or permanent, sacrificing 1 minute of duration seems overpowered in that context.

I think that's more of an issue of "polymorph any object is messed-up because you can use it on yourself as a permanent polymorph." If PAM had a reasonable duration or didn't have such an abstract 1E-style system of determining its effects, the multimorph discovery wouldn't be an issue at all.

@Ravingdork - Maybe I'm misinterpreting the way Polymorph Any Object interacts with the Multimorph feat, but from my understanding, when the spell potentially has a duration of 12 hours, 2 days, 1 week, or permanent, sacrificing 1 minute of duration seems overpowered in that context.

...and again, maybe it doesn't work that way. Tell me otherwise?

Polymorph Any Object is 8th level. By that point, the ability to change into various things more-or-less permanently is the least of your capabilities as a Wizard.

Still, I wouldn't be at all surprised is it's eratta'ed to not apply to Polymorph Any Object if only because that would potentially cause re-figuring durations repeatedly, which is a logistical nightmare.

I think it's important to note that nobody is saying sorcerers are weak, just that they're the lowest on the totem pole compared to the other full casters.

To put it more simply, compare the oracle to the sorcerer to see what the sorcerer is missing out on. The oracle is a spontanious caster done rather well - a battle oracle makes for a better divine warrior then a cleric that focuses on buffing and fighting, for example. The oracle is given a lot of benefits when it specializes. The sorcerer, on the other hand, does not.

I think that's more of an issue of "polymorph any object is messed-up because you can use it on yourself as a permanent polymorph." If PAM had a reasonable duration or didn't have such an abstract 1E-style system of determining its effects, the multimorph discovery wouldn't be an issue at all.

There are two spells that sorely annoy me - both because I like them, and because they're so wonky: Polymorph any object and simulacrum. I've tried "fixing" both before, but sort of just gave up.

It would be just super if Paizo took a look at these spells and revamped them.

Blazej wrote:

Also, I believe that it is quite unlikely for this to get changed because the book has already been sent to the printer.

ever heard of errata?

Yep. Just don't really see this as an error requiring immediate attention. For an Oracle of the Life Mystery, they are almost certainly going to have all the cure spells known automatically and that spell on their bonus spells list would only really benefit life oracles that learned all the inflict spells instead of cure spells (which would be odd thematically).

Knowing they made a similar errata before changed my mind on how likely it is that this made be changed later on, but I still don't think that it really is an issue.

Blazej wrote:

Being on the Patron spell list means the witch automatically learns it without investing other resources to learning the spell.

No it means they f*cked up. Just as they did when they gave the Oracle of life mass cure critical wounds as a domain spell.

I can only assume you meant "bonus" instead of "domain."

Well they were errors in the APG Patron spell lists and they go an errata, besides the last preview had errors too (bomb feats for a variant without bombs).

And bomb discoveries instead of bomb feats.

I think it's important to note that nobody is saying sorcerers are weak, just that they're the lowest on the totem pole compared to the other full casters.

To put it more simply, compare the oracle to the sorcerer to see what the sorcerer is missing out on. The oracle is a spontanious caster done rather well - a battle oracle makes for a better divine warrior then a cleric that focuses on buffing and fighting, for example. The oracle is given a lot of benefits when it specializes. The sorcerer, on the other hand, does not.

The sorcerer unlike the oracle has access to the powerful spells of ARCANE magic. He has full 9th level casting, the sorcerer's spells known are also boosted with additional spells and powers from thier bloodline and can be extremely formidable casters.

When it comes to metamagic, they don't have to agnonise over whether they should be preparing the spell ahead of time or what spells to augment with metamagic. And when it comes casual magic they can out cantrip two wizards with ease. And if that fails them they're among the best wielders of any foreign magic device with thier innate bonus to UMD.

Those who say that sorcerers are weak compared to wizards are those who made the mistake of trying to run them as wizards.

The sorcerer unlike the oracle has access to the powerful spells of ARCANE magic. He has full 9th level casting, the sorcerer's spells known are also boosted with additional spells and powers from thier bloodline and can be extremely formidable casters.

When it comes to metamagic, they don't have to agnonise over whether they should be preparing the spell ahead of time or what spells to augment with metamagic. And when it comes casual magic they can out cantrip two wizards with ease. And if that fails them they're among the best wielders of any foreign magic device with thier innate bonus to UMD.

Those who say that sorcerers are weak compared to wizards are those who made the mistake of trying to run them as wizards.

The oracle has access to the full cleric list, and then in many cases also gains spells from the wizard/sorcerer list as well. In addition to d8 hit dice, 4+Int skill points, casting in armor (with shields), seven class abilities with the option to grab more with feats, and 3 spells known each time they gain a spell level (as opposed to the sorcerer's single spell known each time he gains a spell level).

The oracle's powers are universally stronger than the sorcerer's powers, and they get all the powers their supposed 'curse' grants them as well.

The 'curse' also gains power as they level in classes that are not oracle (even though at a slower rate) and they can gain oracle class features with feats while not leveling in oracle (which the sorcerer can not do).

Even in items the oracle gains more than the sorcerer since the oracle has no less than 2 items (and iirc more) that grant access to extra uses or use of class features while the sorcerer has 1.

The oracle has more choice over which powers they are going to gain and when as well.

All in all the oracle is much more powerful than the sorcerer can hope to be. Just like all the full 9th level base classes.

I want to know why people think the magic being arcane somehow makes it better -- it doesn't. In fact it makes it worse -- having arcane magic means you are more vulnerable to many spells (such as feeblemind), it also means your magic can fail in armor (which divine magic doesn't). Divine casters gain arcane spells on a regular basis too so it's not even like you have spells you are locked out of. In fact in many cases the divine versions of spells are just as nice as the arcane versions.

Why +2 to Will saves for a hedgehog? ...

There is The Hedgehog and the Fox. Quoth Wikipedia, "...hedgehogs, who view the world through the lens of a single defining idea..." This focus takes the form of a high Will save to their magically bonded companions, who are better able to ignore those distractions.

The fox, of course, is the familiar of our example witch character, so someone to pair with the fox in even an esoteric way was brilliant. And face it, hedgehogs are cool. So cool that now more people want to have familiars just so they can have a hedgehog familiar.

*cuddle*

Ow.

Fnipernackle wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

Berselius wrote:

Also, I'd really love to see some Sorcerer pimp-age. They're gonna have a hard time competing with Fast Study unless something good comes out for them.

Won't happen. Sorcerers are the red-headed stepchildren of pathfinder.

I mean compared to any other spontaneous caster they stink, and compared to other full casters they stink even more. The human bonus from the APG just barely keeps them in the running as casters.

please go on, cause this is totally not the case at all. maybe you should play a sorcerer sometime and see that this is not the case.

but i do agree with some of the other posts that i would love to see some new viable options (other than bloodlines) for sorcerers.

Don't know me much do you? I do play sorcerers.

I will stand by my statement. Compared to all other full 9th level casters sorcerers are shafted.

Druids: All spells known, limited spontaneous casting, domain (or AC) better base statistics, earlier spell access, other special abilities, armored casting, better casting stat

Clerics: Better base statistics, channel energy, two domains, earlier spell access, limited spontaneous casting, complete access to spell list, armored casting, better casting stat

Oracles: Better base statistics, more special powers, capstone, earlier bonus spells known, extra spells known (either healing or inflicting), access to special powers through feats, "curse" bonuses, armored casting

Witch: Earlier spell access, extra supernatural powers, patron for abnormal spell access, better casting stat, possibility of knowing all spells

Wizard: Specialization, bonuses feats (3 more than the sorcerer gets), better casting stat, possible limited spontaneous casting or a familiar, 3 special abilities plus small 'kicker' ability based on school, scribe scroll creating ability to have virtually unlimited spell access, possibility of knowing all spells.

Also all the prepared casters can use...

honestly i dont think that sorcerers are the worst of the caster. i think they are one of the most powerful.

now with the release of all the crap for the other classes with only new spells and bloodlines (which you either cant use the bloodlines if youre currently playing a sor, or the fact that other people get those spells too) that will change drastically. other classes getting new things they can use in addition to their regular stuff, where as sorcerers dont seem to be getting any love. everytime i see any posting anywhere for magic, it always says wizard, and doesnt have any mention of sorcerer, which shows me that they get no love.

all im asking for is some sorcerer love for those of us that play sorcerers. i think sorcerers are better than a wizard, since wizards hardly ever have spells they need at the time they need them, and if they do, they usually have one casting of it. not a good thing imo. now with that new discovery, then yes they become more useful. i dont believe its game breaking since its not like youre ever gonna use it in combat. but it does look like it should just be a feat.

now my friend argued with me that rogue talents, sorcerer bloodline powers, oracle revelations, etc sound like feats too, but i disagree here.

ProfessorCirno wrote:

I think it's important to note that nobody is saying sorcerers are weak, just that they're the lowest on the totem pole compared to the other full casters.

To put it more simply, compare the oracle to the sorcerer to see what the sorcerer is missing out on. The oracle is a spontanious caster done rather well - a battle oracle makes for a better divine warrior then a cleric that focuses on buffing and fighting, for example. The oracle is given a lot of benefits when it specializes. The sorcerer, on the other hand, does not.

The sorcerer unlike the oracle has access to the powerful spells of ARCANE magic. He has full 9th level casting, the sorcerer's spells known are also boosted with additional spells and powers from thier bloodline and can be extremely formidable casters.

When it comes to metamagic, they don't have to agnonise over whether they should be preparing the spell ahead of time or what spells to augment with metamagic. And when it comes casual magic they can out cantrip two wizards with ease. And if that fails them they're among the best wielders of any foreign magic device with thier innate bonus to UMD.

Those who say that sorcerers are weak compared to wizards are those who made the mistake of trying to run them as wizards.

+1,000,000 you got it right on the head. people that say that wizards are better than sorcerers that ive met ive challenged them to make a sorcerer with a WELL PICKED spell list, and then go back and try a prepared caster and see just how annoying it is, but not only that, have fun when you cant use that spell you know when you need it since you didnt prepare it.

but i do see wizards becoming better than sorcerers if every other casting class keeps getting new things and the sorcerers dont get anything specific to them.

also, multimorph. doesnt anyone think that a druid should have access to this. almost sounds like they would be the ones who would learn this rather than a wizard, since beast shape is just another spell that a wizard knows, but wild shaping is a staple ability of druids that theyll use extemsively.

I think that's more of an issue of "polymorph any object is messed-up because you can use it on yourself as a permanent polymorph." If PAM had a reasonable duration or didn't have such an abstract 1E-style system of determining its effects, the multimorph discovery wouldn't be an issue at all.

This is exactly the problem.

A wizard being able to change into anything? Eh.

A wizard being able to change his dwarf fighter into a into a troll for days at a time while they go adventuring? Big problem.

Polymorph any object has tons of weird loopholes and issues.

+1,000,000 you got it right on the head. people that say that wizards are better than sorcerers that ive met ive challenged them to make a sorcerer with a WELL PICKED spell list, and then go back and try a prepared caster and see just how annoying it is, but not only that, have fun when you cant use that spell you know when you need it since you didnt prepare it.

Can we just agree to ignore silly statements people make with regards to class balance in this thread please?

Lots of interesting stuff and arguing about class power here is just silly.

Professor C... that goes double for making said silly comments about relative class power, that's a discussion for other threads.

Fnipernackle wrote:

+1,000,000 you got it right on the head. people that say that wizards are better than sorcerers that ive met ive challenged them to make a sorcerer with a WELL PICKED spell list, and then go back and try a prepared caster and see just how annoying it is, but not only that, have fun when you cant use that spell you know when you need it since you didnt prepare it.

Can we just agree to ignore silly statements people make with regards to class balance in this thread please?

Lots of interesting stuff and arguing about class power here is just silly.

Professor C... that goes double for making said silly comments about relative class power, that's a discussion for other threads.

if you had read the staement you will see that it does actually bring up a point that does belong in this thread, seeing as how we have seen no preview where there has been something sorcerer specific, which if there isnt much, then the other classes that do get benefits from this book will overpower the sorcerer, causing problems in the long run. you gotta think of the big picture, rather than criticizing statements.

stuffs

You misunderstand -- I want the sorcerer to get new and nice things.

However I suspect that it will simply be more second rate abilities, and even then everyone else will end up with the same stuff in different ways only more useful -- again.

I've played sorcerers -- amazingly good sorcerers. Terrifyingly good sorcerers -- however even so my wizard's always trounce my sorcerers.

Not because the sorcerers are poorly built or poorly played -- but because the wizard plans and has too many endgame runs around the sorcerer. From scribing abilities for scrolls of "need this but not to cast all day", to pearls of power, to useful wands, to extra feats and skill points to actually useful class features the wizard continues to regularly beat the sorcerer in every regard.

Show me a sorcerer that can teleport at will as a swift action at level 1 (supernaturally!). Show me a sorcerer that can choose to change any spell they cast into a different energy type of choice at will and add damage to it. Show me a sorcerer who can always act in the surprise round and gets a bonus to initiative and gets to pick a reroll each round. Can change their spells each day as needed. Can have spells they didn't prepare for the day ready to use through their own efforts and class abilities. Can choose a whole school of magic to use spontaneously with a single item. Can use metamagic at no cost and no time extension. Can permanently summon creatures to obey them.

Even when it comes to bonus feats the sorcerer is boned compared to the wizard -- the wizard has his choice of all metamagic feats, and all item creation feats for each of his bonus feats and gains scribe scroll (an useful feat) at first level and has 5 more bonus feats in addition to his class features.

The sorcerer gets eschew materials at first level (of doubtful use in most cases) and then gets 3 more bonus feats from very limited lists -- usually consisting of 3 possibly useful feats and 3 very niche feats (improved unarmed strike? improved disarm? improved grapple? skill focus(knowledge(dungeoneering))? Really?!?).

Show me a sorcerer that can teleport at will as a swift action at level 1 (supernaturally!). Show me a sorcerer that can choose to change any spell they cast into a different energy type of choice at will and add damage to it. Show me a sorcerer who can always act in the surprise round and gets a bonus to initiative and gets to pick a reroll each round. Can change their spells each day as needed. Can have spells they didn't prepare for the day ready to use through their own efforts and class abilities. Can choose a whole school of magic to use spontaneously with a single item. Can use metamagic at no cost and no time extension. Can permanently summon creatures to obey them.

I generally agree with your points, but this is not a compelling argument tactic here, because you can make an almost identical list for sorcerers as well. Show me a wizard who can heal at range, do damage at range, and have a limited effectiveness alignment detector, all in one power. Show me a wizard who can cast charm person on a zombie. Etc.

I generally agree with your points, but this is not a compelling argument tactic here, because you can make an almost identical list for sorcerers as well. Show me a wizard who can heal at range, do damage at range, and have a limited effectiveness alignment detector, all in one power. Show me a wizard who can cast charm person on a zombie. Etc.

Universialist wizard -- reach vampiric touch (magical talent? the trait that lowers the metamagic cost by one), or reach bear's endurance.

Heck Reach Infernal Healing. Improved Familiar Imp. Control Undead.

Thing is a wizard can match what the sorcerer's limited list of powers can do -- the sorcerer cannot do the reverse.

if you had read the staement you will see that it does actually bring up a point that does belong in this thread, seeing as how we have seen no preview where there has been something sorcerer specific, which if there isnt much, then the other classes that do get benefits from this book will overpower the sorcerer, causing problems in the long run. you gotta think of the big picture, rather than criticizing statements.

This is a preview, it's a trickle of what is coming. The developers pick little bits and pieces. There is stuff for the sorcerer coming, look at the APG, the page count for the two classes is the same, five pages. Heck both sections have the same amount of art. It's pretty safe to assume that in Ultimate Magic the sorcerer will get the same amount of pages as the wizard.

More bloodlines don't increase customisability. They give you a greater variety of starting options but those options are fixed once taken at level 1. The arcane feats sound like neat ways of tweaking your magical style in small ways.

Yeah honestly the comparison is probably at its limit of usefulness.

I am really hoping for more choices for sorcerers. One thing I would love to see is some 'rehashing' of the original bloodlines.

Every time a new metamagic feat or what not comes out the wizard gets a little more from his bonus feats -- the original bonus feats for the original bloodlines need expanded some too.

...

Please. take it elsewhere. They both have their place.

I love the Sorcerer class and am hoping for some cool stuff for them. The only thing that irks me about the class is 2+int skill points and only one class skill from the bloodline. It is vey frustrating for those of us who want acrobatics, diplomacy, ecape atist, perception, perform, and handle animal as class skils for there fey blooded sorceress and the skill points to get them.

Abraham spalding wrote:

...

Please. take it elsewhere. They both have their place.

Ogre as much as I enjoy most your posts, did I ask you? If they want it to go elsewhere they can say as much -- I appreciate your opinion but you hit a pet peeve and now I'm vexed and going on just cause you said something almost an hour after I had stated I was letting it go.

The other problems with sorcerers compared to any other full 9th spell level caster is the fact that his powers are of no use to a full caster for the most part.

The wizard's powers enhance his abilities to cast, or gives him the means to avoid situations where he can't cast. The witch's powers help in the same way, and druids and clerics have much the same.

The sorcerer instead gets things that are generally useless to him. More blasting? Really he's got enough if he wants to have it and the blasting is low damage with only a single use a day generally. Claws? I mean really claws on a poor BAB class? Heck at least the touch attacks... no even here just no getting into melee range with no AC little defense and less BAB is just asking for death. It's not so bad for cleric, druid and oracle powers -- they have BAB, AC and HP to see them through as well as healing. Not so much for the sorcerer.

The capstone abilities are generally nice but again stuff that barely helps when you get caught in situations that you should not get caught in at those levels.

Sorcerer's are great if you are not doing a casting focused caster.

Judging from the names of the two new sorcerer archetypes, it sounds to me like they will allow the sorcerer to mix and match certain sorcerer bloodlines and/or powers and abilities. If that turns out to be the case after all, then the sorcerer will have just received a HUGE boost to versatility in the space of one or two archetype descriptions. That in itself could prove to be extremely useful and powerful to the class as a whole.

...

I'm going to take a nap. Then I'll revisit this thread.

I don't think asking people to stay on topic is in any way unreasonable but maybe it's the way I asked.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I think that's more of an issue of "polymorph any object is messed-up because you can use it on yourself as a permanent polymorph." If PAM had a reasonable duration or didn't have such an abstract 1E-style system of determining its effects, the multimorph discovery wouldn't be an issue at all.

This is exactly the problem.

A wizard being able to change into anything? Eh.

A wizard being able to change his dwarf fighter into a into a troll for days at a time while they go adventuring? Big problem.

Polymorph any object has tons of weird loopholes and issues.

Yep, PAO is quite busted (as is Simalcrum, mentioned earlier). One power limiting DM's ruling that is both consistent with the spell text and the rules internal to it is that it overwrites the subjects intelligence (ie Bob turned into a troll, is a TROLL, an NPC, not Bob). This is consistent with the spells ability to create an intelligent living being from a rock, which has no intelligence to begin with...There are still many abusive uses to it, as it can target objects (for example, the air in the 5' square a character occupies). Not to mention pulling a solar out of your but temporarily is still ridiculously awesome...

Show me a sorcerer that can teleport at will as a swift action at level 1 (supernaturally!). Show me a sorcerer that can choose to change any spell they cast into a different energy type of choice at will and add damage to it. Show me a sorcerer who can always act in the surprise round and gets a bonus to initiative and gets to pick a reroll each round. Can change their spells each day as needed. Can have spells they didn't prepare for the day ready to use through their own efforts and class abilities. Can choose a whole school of magic to use spontaneously with a single item. Can use metamagic at no cost and no time extension. Can permanently summon creatures to obey them.

Even when it comes to bonus feats the sorcerer is boned compared to the wizard -- the wizard has his choice of all metamagic feats, and all item creation feats for each of his bonus feats and gains scribe scroll (an useful feat) at first level and has 5 more bonus feats in addition to his class features.

The sorcerer gets eschew materials at first level (of doubtful use in most cases) and then gets 3 more bonus feats from very limited lists -- usually consisting of 3...

Don't underestimate the value of Eschew materials. It means that I can take dragonform and still be able to cast and you mr. Wizard... aww your spell component pouch melded into your body! Oh the guards took our spell component pouchs when we came in. Good thing I never needed it anyway.

Don't knock the bloodline abilities either. And who needs scribe scroll? unlike Mr. Wizard I always have all the spells I learn available when I want them. I have far more freedom in deciding when I use my metamagic feats instead of having to make that decsion at spell preparation time. And I've got a far better chance of using our fallen clerics staff of ressurection to bring him back than you do.

And unlike Mr. Wizard... I've got a date for Saturday night. :)

Abraham spalding wrote:

Show me a sorcerer that can teleport at will as a swift action at level 1 (supernaturally!). Show me a sorcerer that can choose to change any spell they cast into a different energy type of choice at will and add damage to it. Show me a sorcerer who can always act in the surprise round and gets a bonus to initiative and gets to pick a reroll each round. Can change their spells each day as needed. Can have spells they didn't prepare for the day ready to use through their own efforts and class abilities. Can choose a whole school of magic to use spontaneously with a single item. Can use metamagic at no cost and no time extension. Can permanently summon creatures to obey them.

Even when it comes to bonus feats the sorcerer is boned compared to the wizard -- the wizard has his choice of all metamagic feats, and all item creation feats for each of his bonus feats and gains scribe scroll (an useful feat) at first level and has 5 more bonus feats in addition to his class features.

The sorcerer gets eschew materials at first level (of doubtful use in most cases) and then gets 3 more bonus feats from very limited lists -- usually consisting of 3...

Don't underestimate the value of Eschew materials. It means that I can take dragonform and still be able to cast and you mr. Wizard... aww your spell component pouch melded into your body! Oh the guards took our spell component pouchs when we came in. Good thing I never needed it anyway.

Don't knock the bloodline abilities either. And who needs scribe scroll? unlike Mr. Wizard I always have all the spells I learn available when I want them. I have far more freedom in deciding when I use my metamagic feats instead of having to make that decsion at spell preparation time. And I've got a far better chance of using our fallen clerics staff of ressurection to bring him back than you do.

And unlike Mr. Wizard... I've got a date for Saturday night. :)

I lol'd. You sir are my hero.

In Blackmoor the Wizard's Guild sponsors a bounty hunt on all sorcerers. I always figured it was revenge for all those Saturday night dates they missed out.

Is it OK if I start a "Sorecers are overpowered, Wizards suck now" thread and ask TOZ, Cirno and Kirth to play along? =)

Is it OK if I start a "Sorecers are overpowered, Wizards suck now" thread and ask TOZ, Cirno and Kirth to play along? =)

I'll certainly join in.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

omg! OMG! OMG! OMG! omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!

*** Passes out***

Eloquently stated. ;)

Quick! Somebody get that guy 50 cc's of coffee! His supply's run out!

**Absorbs coffee**

Helloooo

Ravingdork wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

omg! OMG! OMG! OMG! omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!omg! OMG! OMG! OMG!

*** Passes out***

Eloquently stated. ;)

Quick! Somebody get that guy 50 cc's of coffee! His supply's run out!

**Absorbs coffee**

Helloooo

There you go little buddy. Try not to get so excited. Even coffee has its limits.

**Places stethoscope and coffee syringe into pocket**
***Hops off into the sunset**

**Places stethoscope and coffee syringe into pocket**
***Hops off into the sunset**

Lol. Caffiene is more effective when you're tiny.