The return of the lucerne hammer! Misguided clerics everywhere rejoice!
Enemy hammer sounds like too much fun.
Take that Baron! First in this new thread! And back to the topic, the APG sure sounds cool! :)
-Lisa
Only because my beautiful posts were squelched by some "interesting" problem. :-(
All very cool I can't wait for mine to ship some time in the next week.
That ability the Archmage receives that is similar to Minor Spell Expertise is one of the lesser reasons I like the Archmage, although it is nice.
What I would really like to see is a feat that allows you to do Elemental Mastery (switching the element at will at time of casting) or of Shaping (able to carve out a 5’ square or more) when casting an area of effect or cone spell.
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That ability the Archmage receives that is similar to Minor Spell Expertise is one of the lesser reasons I like the Archmage, although it is nice.
What I would really like to see is a feat that allows you to do Elemental Mastery (switching the element at will at time of casting) or of Shaping (able to carve out a 5’ square or more) when casting an area of effect or cone spell.
From what's been said elsewhere, I think that all of the abilities will be in there. They just chose to show this one as it's slightly different to the orignal abilities, whilst fitting with the same themes
Oh, enemy hammer WILL be used in an up coming game :)
Only because my beautiful posts were squelched by some "interesting" problem. :-(Take that Baron! First in this new thread! And back to the topic, the APG sure sounds cool! :)
-Lisa
Paizo has some problems with there page? It's been acting very strange that last few weeks. Very slow.
Paizo has some problems with there page? It's been acting very strange that last few weeks. Very slow.Only because my beautiful posts were squelched by some "interesting" problem. :-(Take that Baron! First in this new thread! And back to the topic, the APG sure sounds cool! :)
-Lisa
Yeah, and just refusing to post things. I'm just lucky I have Lazarus, or I'd go mad.
From what's been said elsewhere, I think that all of the abilities will be in there. They just chose to show this one as it's slightly different to the orignal abilities, whilst fitting with the same themesThat ability the Archmage receives that is similar to Minor Spell Expertise is one of the lesser reasons I like the Archmage, although it is nice.
What I would really like to see is a feat that allows you to do Elemental Mastery (switching the element at will at time of casting) or of Shaping (able to carve out a 5’ square or more) when casting an area of effect or cone spell.
Awesome, thanks. :)
Now I just hope the cost for those feats are relatively the same. (Having to sacrifice spell slots is fair to me, but casting them at a higher level spell slot, is not).
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1) Minor Spell Expertise sounds real good (especially for Sorcerers and other classes whose number of spells per day is subpart). But what if said spell appears on the lists of 2 classes of your character (example CLW for a Bard/Cleric) ? Do you add the two CLs ?
2) Weapon Blanch is a great way to get rid of the golf-bag syndrome
3) Enemy Hammer is April's fool. It cannot be otherwise. The save does not even allow you to avoid the damage (or at least, the description does not explicitely say so). And it is a Fort save !!!
I target the wizard and aim for the wall (2d6 damage for said Medium wizard) repeatedly. He will definitely have a hard time casting (remember those pesky concentration rolls for casting in difficult surroundings).
4) Ring of truth is nice. Until the PCs put it on the lying NPC, that is ;-)
5) Extra powers as a Feat are just great
Pretty cool!
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3) Enemy Hammer is April's fool. It cannot be otherwise. The save does not even allow you to avoid the damage (or at least, the description does not explicitely say so). And it is a Fort save !!!
Hi, BR :)
It's still level 6, though. The same level as disintegrate. Come to think of it, I guess it could be worse. :)
Random musings of a long-time lurker (1st post i think... heh!), regarding Enemy Hammer... (also posting from work, and brain dead at the moment, so forgive me if im nonsensical).
1) Any object within 30 feet. Do you think this includes vertically? IE, say a cavern ceiling 25 feet above? If so, would should you add subsequent falling damage to it?
2) Along the same lines, would throwing someone through a particularly nasty persistent AOE effect/trap trigger that spell or trap's effect as well (ie, prismatic wall, wall of fire, blade barrier, evards, etc)... If so, im seeing all sorts of evilness occurring when my DM gets ahold of that spell hehe.
Food for thought... speaking of which, I need to get some lunch.
2) Weapon Blanch is a great way to get rid of the golf-bag syndrome
That depends how much it costs. If you have to hit something alot you will definitely run into but will only run into it rarely, you are right back to golf bag syndrome.
4) Ring of truth is nice. Until the PCs put it on the lying NPC, that is ;-)
It doesn't prevent lying unless you are a far more skilled speech smith than your opponent. They have to answer a direct question but can otherwise avoid giving you anything. The most dangerous of LE creatures never lie - they just don't bother giving you the full truth.
The Enemy Hammer is nice and actually pretty funny. But it’s not quite as useful where I would like it. Where it would really shine is being able to cast it on a large, huge (or bigger) sized creature and batter the hell out the smaller opponents. However, with their bloated Fortitude saves, that wouldn’t work too well.
Where I see its real usefulness is casting it on fellow Sorcerors and Wizards and bashing them against trees, rocks, walls, etc. lol
Edit: Oh wait, doesn’t make a difference what you hit with the creature you have controlled, may as well hit another opponent with that Wizard/Sorceror instead of an object (like the tree, stone, wall, etc.) so they both take damage.
I, for one, am rather surprised that Enemy Hammer doesn't have a weight limit.
An 11th level wizard (first level to cast 6th level spells) can either throw 275 pounds of stuff at some one with Telekinesis or throw a several ton monster that fails its saving throw at some one. Though the damage is significantly lower than one would expect. Drop an elephant on some one? 2d10 damage. Throw them 30 feet in the air into a ceiling? 1d6 damage for hitting the ceiling then another 3d6 damage for falling 30'.
What prevents that is the Fortitude save. That ‘several ton monster’ is going to have an insane Fortitude and will almost always make the DC (unless it rolls that 1).
What prevents that is the Fortitude save. That ‘several ton monster’ is going to have an insane Fortitude and will almost always make the DC (unless it rolls that 1).
It will theoretically have a crazy Fortitude save. Which is obviously why they used crazy low damage instead.
I, for one, am rather surprised that Enemy Hammer doesn't have a weight limit.
An 11th level wizard (first level to cast 6th level spells) can either throw 275 pounds of stuff at some one with Telekinesis or throw a several ton monster that fails its saving throw at some one. Though the damage is significantly lower than one would expect. Drop an elephant on some one? 2d10 damage. Throw them 30 feet in the air into a ceiling? 1d6 damage for hitting the ceiling then another 3d6 damage for falling 30'.
On the other hand, throwing someone into the ceiling with telekinesis uses up the spell. With enemy hammer, you can hit them with it for several rounds in a row.
On the other hand, throwing someone into the ceiling with telekinesis uses up the spell. With enemy hammer, you can hit them with it for several rounds in a row.I, for one, am rather surprised that Enemy Hammer doesn't have a weight limit.
An 11th level wizard (first level to cast 6th level spells) can either throw 275 pounds of stuff at some one with Telekinesis or throw a several ton monster that fails its saving throw at some one. Though the damage is significantly lower than one would expect. Drop an elephant on some one? 2d10 damage. Throw them 30 feet in the air into a ceiling? 1d6 damage for hitting the ceiling then another 3d6 damage for falling 30'.
Which was what I was talking about. The best use of Enemy Hammer is attacking the ceiling.
Enemy Hammer:
The attack bonus for this attack is equal to your caster level plus either your Intelligence or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher).
Is this another case of actual rules text being modified for the blog or does the spell actually read like this, i.e. by using `whichever is higher`, instead of using the Casting Stat no matter what, a caster whose casting stat has been drained (though still enough to cast the spell) but whose other stat (INT/CON) is reasonably high (say, they are a Mystic Theurge or a Caster Monster with both high INT and CHA) can use that stat (not normally connected to casting the spell) instead of their drained Casting Stat?
Anyhow, I think `the point` of the spell is more about the repeated Fort Save for around 13+ rounds which cause them to *lose their action* (not subject to Stun/mind-affecting immunities), besides being deposited prone in a convenient (Friendly Melee Full-Attackable) position, not the direct damage per se. It takes your Standard Action every round to throw them around (presumably the spell persists to be available if you decide to do something else with your S.A. one round), but it as written I would say that you could ready that Standard Action to disrupt another spellcaster`s spells...
I don`t even see why you couldn`t ready the Standard Action to utilize the spell against THE TARGET`S actions, in case they pass their Save you can still mess them up, e.g. from damage and violent movement during spellcasting, disrupting charges, after they Move to attack one target they get knocked away so they must take another Move Action to get back where they wanted to go... etc.
Re: Ironguts, it would be nicer if it allowed a Save against effects that normally don`t allow one, e.g. Critical Feats.
If most of the Racial Feats are similar in power to this one, they seem good for GM`s who want to reward player`s differentiating their characters / races, without overly powering up the game.
On the other hand, throwing someone into the ceiling with telekinesis uses up the spell. With enemy hammer, you can hit them with it for several rounds in a row.Which was what I was talking about. The best use of Enemy Hammer is attacking the ceiling.
Alright, now I see why they made using that spell a standard action. That's a single spell which can do 5d6 to a medium opponent every round for 11 rounds and knock him prone every round. There's no save against the damage at that point, you just hit the ceiling every round.
You can also use it to cause flying creatures to crash into eachother and cause them to fall.
Honestly though, the main problem that I see with Enemy Hammer is that it takes a standard action to cast, and then you have to wait a round to use it because flinging your target is another standard action. I would house rule that you get to use it on the first round for free.
Alright, now I see why they made using that spell a standard action. That's a single spell which can do 5d6 to a medium opponent every round for 11 rounds and knock him prone every round. There's no save against the damage at that point, you just hit the ceiling every round.
You are wrong on two counts. Enemy hammer is a spell that can do 4d6 damage to any sized enemy every round.
You are wrong on two counts. Enemy hammer is a spell that can do 4d6 damage to any sized enemy every round.
Alright, now I see why they made using that spell a standard action. That's a single spell which can do 5d6 to a medium opponent every round for 11 rounds and knock him prone every round. There's no save against the damage at that point, you just hit the ceiling every round.
Where are you getting the 4d6 from? The enemy would get 3d6 falling damage for falling 30 feet, + the standard damage from the enemy hammer spell which varries depending on his size. Against a medium enemy it would do 3d6 falling + 2d6 from hitting the ceiling while beating a collossal enemy against the ceiling would do 3d6 + 3d8 damage per round. Or am I just missing something? lol.
Oh, I missed the "both creature and target creature take damage based on size." It would take 4d6 + damage from size.
Or am I just missing something? lol.You are actually. Beating a collossal creature against the ceiling is going make it fall. Probably around the second or third beating.
Make the ceiling fall you mean? Well, that is just more damage for the collossal creature. You just need to make sure that you're far enough away that you don't get burried as well ;)
It is too bad that I doubt people will always find themselves in situations where they'll just happen to be in a room or cave where the ceiling is exactly 30 feet above the collossal creature's head, haha.
Or am I just missing something? lol.You are actually. Beating a collossal creature against the ceiling is going make it fall. Probably around the second or third beating.
Not unless it is in a thatched roof cottage. 3d8 damage is barely going to overcome hardness on average and then will be pecking at the 60-90HP.
And that thing used on or around cliff. Hah!
You realize you can just use Telekinesis for that, right? And it is against Will. An easier save to hit I imagine.
You realize you can just use Telekinesis for that, right? And it is against Will. An easier save to hit I imagine.
And that thing used on or around cliff. Hah!
Hmm, Enemy Hammer doesn't even allow a save to avoid getting thrown off cliffs. The Fort save just prevents the victim from being knocked prone, he can't stop himself from being moved. The only limitation is that you're supposed to only be able to throw your victim at other enemies and objects, so you'd have to convice your gm that you're totally attacking the air above that bottomless pit.
Not against a caster..whose probably got a high will but low Fortitude.
You realize you can just use Telekinesis for that, right? And it is against Will. An easier save to hit I imagine.
And that thing used on or around cliff. Hah!
Not if you're casting it at the Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/Bard.
As to cliffs, nothing to send them against unless you have a friend toss a stone off the cliff behind the target, and then hammer them at the rock (unless I'm misreading the spell, you have to hammer them into an object, not thin air).
Hmm, Enemy Hammer doesn't even allow a save to avoid getting thrown off cliffs.
It would be an interesting DM indeed that let you "attack the air over the side of the cliff."
The Fort save just prevents the victim from being knocked prone,
What.
The target creature can make a Fortitude saving throw each time you attempt to use it as a weapon. If it makes its saving throw, it can act normally
I presumed that meant it negated the entirety of the attempted action that round.
You're right Cartigan - it's an unusual save thing. Caster picks a target, no save for that, and then gets to *try* to toss them around each round as a standard action (and you'd get to the first round of course). Fort save negates only that round, not the spell itself.
I presumed that meant it negated the entirety of the attempted action that round.
Yea, the wording is a little weird.
The target creature can make a Fortitude saving throw each time you attempt to use it as a weapon. If it makes its saving throw, it can act normally, but if it fails its save, it loses all action for the round and ends its turn prone in a square adjacent to the target of your attack.
Basically, it doesn't seem to say anything about 'you only get to throw your target if he fails his save'. It seems like he still gets thrown if he succeeds on his fort save, but if he fails his save he also loses his turn and falls prone whether or not the attack even hits. The only way he can avoid getting damaged by the throw is if the wizard/sorcerer who cast the spell botches his attack roll.
It seems like they didn't want the spell's user to have to worry about both attack rolls and saving throws working against it causing damage.
You know what it also reminds me of? Bioshock 2
In Bioshock 2 you can pick up an enemy with telekinesis at the correct level, alive or dead and start flinging them around at other enemies.
Enemy Hammer
School Transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes
You grab a creature with telekinesis and use it to batter nearby opponents or objects. You must target a specific creature when casting this spell, and once you select that creature, you cannot switch to another. Each round, as a standard action, you can attempt to hurl the target at any creature or object within 30 feet of it. You must make an attack roll whenever you use the target as a weapon. The attack bonus for this attack is equal to your caster level plus either your Intelligence or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher). If you successfully hit the new target with the creature, both it and the creature take damage based on the creature's size (Fine 1d4, Diminutive 1d6, Tiny 1d8, Small 1d10, Medium 2d6, Large 2d8, Huge 2d10, Gargantuan 3d6, Colossal 3d8). The target creature can make a Fortitude saving throw each time you attempt to use it as a weapon. If it makes its saving throw, it can act normally, but if it fails its save, it loses all action for the round and ends its turn prone in a square adjacent to the target of your attack.
Now here is a great tactic for ya. What if you fling an enemy so it that it goes through your fellow player's threaten areas? The fling foe is still an enemy, so wouldn't this be a OOA on the foe? Ya sure the opponent is being flinged but at the very least a reflex roll of 15 could be allowed to see if your friends react fast enough. Plus if your friends know that you are going to do this the DC might be lower because it is expected. You could easily kill on foe in one round and hurt another guy.
You know what it also reminds me of? Bioshock 2
Now here is a great tactic for ya. What if you fling an enemy so it that it goes through your fellow player's threaten areas? The fling foe is still an enemy, so wouldn't this be a OOA on the foe? Ya sure the opponent is being flinged but at the very least a reflex roll of 15 could be allowed to see if your friends react fast enough. Plus if your friends know that you are going to do this the DC might be lower because it is expected. You could easily kill on foe in one round and hurt another guy.
Wow, that's actually a good idea, assuming it works. Honestly, I think that could make the spell overpowered if does cause AoO from movement. It can already cause at least one from the enemy having to get up after being knocked prone.
Then again, it is a level 6 spell. They are supposed to be powerful.
Wow, that's actually a good idea, assuming it works. Honestly, I think that could make the spell overpowered if does cause AoO from movement. It can already cause at least one from the enemy having to get up after being knocked prone.Then again, it is a level 6 spell. They are supposed to be powerful.
I am looking through the core rules right now and just in the normal rules about OOA I am not seeing anything that would be against it.
I also don't see anything about forced movement in the book. Although I was going through with just the PDF and perhaps I am using the wrong key words. I also looked through the movement section and didn't see anything that would say it would be illegal.
I think it would again boil down to the judgment call of the GM in question. Personally I don't see anything against allowing this to happen because of a couple of reasons.
Unless all your players have combat reflexes they only get one OOA a round.
Not all characters will hit because you will have casters mixed in with melee types.
The spell is level 6 so you won't be seeing this kind of stunt until a lot later.
Lastly it seems to me like hitting a baseball!
The target creature can make a Fortitude saving throw each time you attempt to use it as a weapon. If it makes its saving throw, it can act normally, but if it fails its save, it loses all action for the round and ends its turn prone in a square adjacent to the target of your attack.
Basically, it doesn't seem to say anything about 'you only get to throw your target if he fails his save'. It seems like he still gets thrown if he succeeds on his fort save, but if he fails his save he also loses his turn and falls prone whether or not the attack even hits. The only way he can avoid getting damaged by the throw is if the wizard/sorcerer who cast the spell botches his attack roll.
It seems like they didn't want the spell's user to have to worry about both attack rolls and saving throws working against it causing damage.
I don't read it that way. It says that if the target makes his saving throw, he acts normally for that turn. If he was thrown (and not even for damage), I would not consider that as being able to act normal for that turn.
Not sure why my response is part of the quote box, but my reply is the line above.
Lastly it seems to me like hitting a baseball!
Ahh, but you have to ready an action to hit a baseball ;)
Seriously though, the only ability in the game that this could be compared to is Bull Rush. Bull Rush doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity on the victim unless you have Greater Bull Rush. I guess you could say that this limitation was specifically put on bull rush, and that forced movement normally does cause an AoO?
I don't read it that way. It says that if the target makes his saving throw, he acts normally for that turn. If he was thrown (and not even for damage), I would not consider that as being able to act normal for that turn.
Honestly, if they meant it that way, that's a really vauge way of wording it. To, me 'acting normally' just means being able to take your standard and move actions, and you theoretically could do that even after being thrown across the room. If you fail the save though, it specifically says that you lose your turn and end up prone, so there you definately are not 'acting normally'.