Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview #4

Thursday, July 22, 2010

Two weeks and counting until the start of Gen Con 2010 and the release of the Advanced Player's Guide. If you have not already done so, you might want to reserve it with your FLGS or order online now. To help encourage you to pick up this hefty tome, I am giving you a guided tour of the goodies inside. In the past weeks we have looked at some new race and class material. This week we will be jumping around quite a bit, looking at feats, gear, spells, and magic items. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so let's get going.

Starting out with Chapter 3, let's take a look at feats. This 26-page chapter is loaded down with 163 new feats, from combat and metamagic feats, the new teamwork feats that grant large bonuses when you and an ally use them together. But that's not all, not by a long shot. There are a host of feats in this chapter designed to let you add to your existing class features, like Extra Rage Power and Extra Hex. There are also a host of feats based on your race, like this one.

Ironguts
You have an especially strong stomach.
Prerequsitites: Con 13; dwarf, half-orc, orc.
Benefit: You gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against any effect causing the nauseated or sickened conditions and against all ingested poisons (but not other poisons). In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on Survival skill checks to find food for yourself.

As was mentioned at the preview banquet, a number of the powers of the 3.5 archmage prestige class have found their way into the Pathfinder RPG as feats that most spellcasters can take. Take a look at Minor Spell Expertise.

Minor Spell Expertise
You are able to cast a 1st-level spell as a spell-like ability
Prerequsite: Ability to cast 4th-level spells.
Benefit: Chose one 1st-level spell that you know. You may cast that spell twice per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this spell-like ability is equal to your caster level in that class from whose spell list the spell is taken. The spell-like ability's save DC is Charisma-based. You cannot apply metatmagic feats to this spell.

Moving on from feats, the gear chapter is short, but jam-packed with new tools and tricks to help properly equip your character. From an Lucerne hammer to wooden armor, from an hourglass to rope made from spider silk, there's plenty here for everyone. There are also a lot of tools for each of the new classes, including the portable alchemist's lab and the witch's cauldron. What has me most excited is the wealth of alchemical items in the book. Take a look at this gem.

Weapon Blanch (adamantine, cold iron, or silver): These alchemical powders have a gritty consistency. When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round, they melt and form a temporary coating on the weapon. The blanching gives the weapon the ability to bypass one kind of material based damage reduction, depending on its type. The blanching remains effective until the weapon makes a successful attack. Each dose of blanching can coat one weapon or up to 10 pieces of ammunition. Only one type of blanch can be used on a weapon at one time, although if the weapon is made of a special material, that material still applies.

Next up is a rather large chapter on spells. Discounting the tables at the beginning, there are 57 pages of spells here, containing spells for characters of every class and every level. This chapter also includes the elemental spell lists for those wizards who wish to focus on elemental schools of magic. Let's take a look at a spell that I am particularly excited to use on my players. It might not be incredibly powerful, but it is a lot of fun.

Enemy Hammer
School Transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes
You grab a creature with telekinesis and use it to batter nearby opponents or objects. You must target a specific creature when casting this spell, and once you select that creature, you cannot switch to another. Each round, as a standard action, you can attempt to hurl the target at any creature or object within 30 feet of it. You must make an attack roll whenever you use the target as a weapon. The attack bonus for this attack is equal to your caster level plus either your Intelligence or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher). If you successfully hit the new target with the creature, both it and the creature take damage based on the creature's size (Fine 1d4, Diminutive 1d6, Tiny 1d8, Small 1d10, Medium 2d6, Large 2d8, Huge 2d10, Gargantuan 3d6, Colossal 3d8). The target creature can make a Fortitude saving throw each time you attempt to use it as a weapon. If it makes its saving throw, it can act normally, but if it fails its save, it loses all action for the round and ends its turn prone in a square adjacent to the target of your attack.

Finally, this book contains a large chapter containing all sorts of magic items, from inexpensive soul soap to the mighty cloud castle of the storm king. Of course, it's not all wonderful. There are a host of new cursed items to inflict upon your PCs, lurking in this book. Take a look at ring of truth.

Ring of Truth
Aura moderate enchantment; CL 9th
Slot ring; Weight
Deceptively pleasant looking, a ring of truth bears images of childlike angels and broadly smiling divine creatures holding onto links of a heavy chain. The wearer of this cursed ring is rendered unable to tell a deliberate lie, in either speech or writing. The wearer may simply omit the truth or choose not to communicate, but even then must succeed on a DC 20 Will saving throw to avoid answering a direct question truthfully.

And there you go. The Advanced Player's Guide is just two weeks away now. Next week's preview will be the last before release, so we will wrap up our tour of the book by looking at the new prestige classes and new rules systems hiding in this book.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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Paizo Employee CEO

Take that Baron! First in this new thread! And back to the topic, the APG sure sounds cool! :)

-Lisa

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

The return of the lucerne hammer! Misguided clerics everywhere rejoice!

Enemy hammer sounds like too much fun.


Lisa Stevens wrote:

Take that Baron! First in this new thread! And back to the topic, the APG sure sounds cool! :)

-Lisa

Only because my beautiful posts were squelched by some "interesting" problem. :-(


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

All very cool I can't wait for mine to ship some time in the next week.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

That ability the Archmage receives that is similar to Minor Spell Expertise is one of the lesser reasons I like the Archmage, although it is nice.

What I would really like to see is a feat that allows you to do Elemental Mastery (switching the element at will at time of casting) or of Shaping (able to carve out a 5’ square or more) when casting an area of effect or cone spell.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Card Game, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Hobbun wrote:

That ability the Archmage receives that is similar to Minor Spell Expertise is one of the lesser reasons I like the Archmage, although it is nice.

What I would really like to see is a feat that allows you to do Elemental Mastery (switching the element at will at time of casting) or of Shaping (able to carve out a 5’ square or more) when casting an area of effect or cone spell.

From what's been said elsewhere, I think that all of the abilities will be in there. They just chose to show this one as it's slightly different to the orignal abilities, whilst fitting with the same themes


Oh, enemy hammer WILL be used in an up coming game :)


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:

Take that Baron! First in this new thread! And back to the topic, the APG sure sounds cool! :)

-Lisa

Only because my beautiful posts were squelched by some "interesting" problem. :-(

Paizo has some problems with there page? It's been acting very strange that last few weeks. Very slow.

Shadow Lodge

Racial feats sound interesting.

I am also happy to see the archmage powers get into the book. I loved the powers they had but agree that it didn't really merit a PrC. Also as a series of feats this opens the abilities up to all the classes which is great IMO.


Zark wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:

Take that Baron! First in this new thread! And back to the topic, the APG sure sounds cool! :)

-Lisa

Only because my beautiful posts were squelched by some "interesting" problem. :-(
Paizo has some problems with there page? It's been acting very strange that last few weeks. Very slow.

Yeah, and just refusing to post things. I'm just lucky I have Lazarus, or I'd go mad.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Enlight_Bystand wrote:
Hobbun wrote:

That ability the Archmage receives that is similar to Minor Spell Expertise is one of the lesser reasons I like the Archmage, although it is nice.

What I would really like to see is a feat that allows you to do Elemental Mastery (switching the element at will at time of casting) or of Shaping (able to carve out a 5’ square or more) when casting an area of effect or cone spell.

From what's been said elsewhere, I think that all of the abilities will be in there. They just chose to show this one as it's slightly different to the orignal abilities, whilst fitting with the same themes

Awesome, thanks. :)

Now I just hope the cost for those feats are relatively the same. (Having to sacrifice spell slots is fair to me, but casting them at a higher level spell slot, is not).

Liberty's Edge

1) Minor Spell Expertise sounds real good (especially for Sorcerers and other classes whose number of spells per day is subpart). But what if said spell appears on the lists of 2 classes of your character (example CLW for a Bard/Cleric) ? Do you add the two CLs ?

2) Weapon Blanch is a great way to get rid of the golf-bag syndrome

3) Enemy Hammer is April's fool. It cannot be otherwise. The save does not even allow you to avoid the damage (or at least, the description does not explicitely say so). And it is a Fort save !!!

I target the wizard and aim for the wall (2d6 damage for said Medium wizard) repeatedly. He will definitely have a hard time casting (remember those pesky concentration rolls for casting in difficult surroundings).

4) Ring of truth is nice. Until the PCs put it on the lying NPC, that is ;-)

5) Extra powers as a Feat are just great


Pretty cool!

Sovereign Court

The black raven wrote:


3) Enemy Hammer is April's fool. It cannot be otherwise. The save does not even allow you to avoid the damage (or at least, the description does not explicitely say so). And it is a Fort save !!!

Hi, BR :)

It's still level 6, though. The same level as disintegrate. Come to think of it, I guess it could be worse. :)

Sovereign Court

0gre wrote:
Racial feats sound interesting.

I'd hope so, but that example feat isn't that enticing.

All of the effects are situational in nature and you have to be specific races.

Between those narrowing elements the feat really ought to jack those values up much higher, say +8 for all of the different things they are boosting. That would make the feat worthwhile.

Right now, you're just get +10% to those rare instances.

The theme of "Iron Guts" isn't really getting teased out well. An orc who has it is really just compensating for their low wisdom to just end up having an average result in finding food for itself. If the bonus was +8 then mechanically it would be much easier to simulate them eating trash or whatever other nasty junk they might find to chow down on.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
soul soap

For when your soul has that not-so-fresh feeling.


Random musings of a long-time lurker (1st post i think... heh!), regarding Enemy Hammer... (also posting from work, and brain dead at the moment, so forgive me if im nonsensical).

1) Any object within 30 feet. Do you think this includes vertically? IE, say a cavern ceiling 25 feet above? If so, would should you add subsequent falling damage to it?

2) Along the same lines, would throwing someone through a particularly nasty persistent AOE effect/trap trigger that spell or trap's effect as well (ie, prismatic wall, wall of fire, blade barrier, evards, etc)... If so, im seeing all sorts of evilness occurring when my DM gets ahold of that spell hehe.

Food for thought... speaking of which, I need to get some lunch.


Enemy Hammer seems like it could be a useful utility spell, when cast on an ally.


The black raven wrote:


2) Weapon Blanch is a great way to get rid of the golf-bag syndrome

That depends how much it costs. If you have to hit something alot you will definitely run into but will only run into it rarely, you are right back to golf bag syndrome.

Quote:
4) Ring of truth is nice. Until the PCs put it on the lying NPC, that is ;-)

It doesn't prevent lying unless you are a far more skilled speech smith than your opponent. They have to answer a direct question but can otherwise avoid giving you anything. The most dangerous of LE creatures never lie - they just don't bother giving you the full truth.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The Enemy Hammer is nice and actually pretty funny. But it’s not quite as useful where I would like it. Where it would really shine is being able to cast it on a large, huge (or bigger) sized creature and batter the hell out the smaller opponents. However, with their bloated Fortitude saves, that wouldn’t work too well.

Where I see its real usefulness is casting it on fellow Sorcerors and Wizards and bashing them against trees, rocks, walls, etc. lol

Edit: Oh wait, doesn’t make a difference what you hit with the creature you have controlled, may as well hit another opponent with that Wizard/Sorceror instead of an object (like the tree, stone, wall, etc.) so they both take damage.


I, for one, am rather surprised that Enemy Hammer doesn't have a weight limit.

An 11th level wizard (first level to cast 6th level spells) can either throw 275 pounds of stuff at some one with Telekinesis or throw a several ton monster that fails its saving throw at some one. Though the damage is significantly lower than one would expect. Drop an elephant on some one? 2d10 damage. Throw them 30 feet in the air into a ceiling? 1d6 damage for hitting the ceiling then another 3d6 damage for falling 30'.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

What prevents that is the Fortitude save. That ‘several ton monster’ is going to have an insane Fortitude and will almost always make the DC (unless it rolls that 1).


Hobbun wrote:
What prevents that is the Fortitude save. That ‘several ton monster’ is going to have an insane Fortitude and will almost always make the DC (unless it rolls that 1).

It will theoretically have a crazy Fortitude save. Which is obviously why they used crazy low damage instead.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Cartigan wrote:

I, for one, am rather surprised that Enemy Hammer doesn't have a weight limit.

An 11th level wizard (first level to cast 6th level spells) can either throw 275 pounds of stuff at some one with Telekinesis or throw a several ton monster that fails its saving throw at some one. Though the damage is significantly lower than one would expect. Drop an elephant on some one? 2d10 damage. Throw them 30 feet in the air into a ceiling? 1d6 damage for hitting the ceiling then another 3d6 damage for falling 30'.

On the other hand, throwing someone into the ceiling with telekinesis uses up the spell. With enemy hammer, you can hit them with it for several rounds in a row.

Liberty's Edge

Minotaur: "It rinses cleaner! You feel cleaner!"

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Pygon wrote:
Minotaur: "It rinses cleaner! You feel cleaner!"

And after washing, remember to use Paizo-brand soul wax to keep your soul shiny! While supplies last.


Ross Byers wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

I, for one, am rather surprised that Enemy Hammer doesn't have a weight limit.

An 11th level wizard (first level to cast 6th level spells) can either throw 275 pounds of stuff at some one with Telekinesis or throw a several ton monster that fails its saving throw at some one. Though the damage is significantly lower than one would expect. Drop an elephant on some one? 2d10 damage. Throw them 30 feet in the air into a ceiling? 1d6 damage for hitting the ceiling then another 3d6 damage for falling 30'.

On the other hand, throwing someone into the ceiling with telekinesis uses up the spell. With enemy hammer, you can hit them with it for several rounds in a row.

Which was what I was talking about. The best use of Enemy Hammer is attacking the ceiling.


Quote:

Enemy Hammer:

The attack bonus for this attack is equal to your caster level plus either your Intelligence or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher).

Is this another case of actual rules text being modified for the blog or does the spell actually read like this, i.e. by using `whichever is higher`, instead of using the Casting Stat no matter what, a caster whose casting stat has been drained (though still enough to cast the spell) but whose other stat (INT/CON) is reasonably high (say, they are a Mystic Theurge or a Caster Monster with both high INT and CHA) can use that stat (not normally connected to casting the spell) instead of their drained Casting Stat?

Anyhow, I think `the point` of the spell is more about the repeated Fort Save for around 13+ rounds which cause them to *lose their action* (not subject to Stun/mind-affecting immunities), besides being deposited prone in a convenient (Friendly Melee Full-Attackable) position, not the direct damage per se. It takes your Standard Action every round to throw them around (presumably the spell persists to be available if you decide to do something else with your S.A. one round), but it as written I would say that you could ready that Standard Action to disrupt another spellcaster`s spells...

I don`t even see why you couldn`t ready the Standard Action to utilize the spell against THE TARGET`S actions, in case they pass their Save you can still mess them up, e.g. from damage and violent movement during spellcasting, disrupting charges, after they Move to attack one target they get knocked away so they must take another Move Action to get back where they wanted to go... etc.

Re: Ironguts, it would be nicer if it allowed a Save against effects that normally don`t allow one, e.g. Critical Feats.
If most of the Racial Feats are similar in power to this one, they seem good for GM`s who want to reward player`s differentiating their characters / races, without overly powering up the game.


Cartigan wrote:
On the other hand, throwing someone into the ceiling with telekinesis uses up the spell. With enemy hammer, you can hit them with it for several rounds in a row.
Which was what I was talking about. The best use of Enemy Hammer is attacking the ceiling.

Alright, now I see why they made using that spell a standard action. That's a single spell which can do 5d6 to a medium opponent every round for 11 rounds and knock him prone every round. There's no save against the damage at that point, you just hit the ceiling every round.

You can also use it to cause flying creatures to crash into eachother and cause them to fall.

Honestly though, the main problem that I see with Enemy Hammer is that it takes a standard action to cast, and then you have to wait a round to use it because flinging your target is another standard action. I would house rule that you get to use it on the first round for free.


Matrixryu wrote:


Alright, now I see why they made using that spell a standard action. That's a single spell which can do 5d6 to a medium opponent every round for 11 rounds and knock him prone every round. There's no save against the damage at that point, you just hit the ceiling every round.

You are wrong on two counts. Enemy hammer is a spell that can do 4d6 damage to any sized enemy every round.


Cartigan wrote:
Matrixryu wrote:


Alright, now I see why they made using that spell a standard action. That's a single spell which can do 5d6 to a medium opponent every round for 11 rounds and knock him prone every round. There's no save against the damage at that point, you just hit the ceiling every round.
You are wrong on two counts. Enemy hammer is a spell that can do 4d6 damage to any sized enemy every round.

Where are you getting the 4d6 from? The enemy would get 3d6 falling damage for falling 30 feet, + the standard damage from the enemy hammer spell which varries depending on his size. Against a medium enemy it would do 3d6 falling + 2d6 from hitting the ceiling while beating a collossal enemy against the ceiling would do 3d6 + 3d8 damage per round. Or am I just missing something? lol.

Shadow Lodge

Matrixryu wrote:
Or am I just missing something? lol.

You are actually. Beating a collossal creature against the ceiling is going make it fall. Probably around the second or third beating.


Oh, I missed the "both creature and target creature take damage based on size." It would take 4d6 + damage from size.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Matrixryu wrote:
Or am I just missing something? lol.
You are actually. Beating a collossal creature against the ceiling is going make it fall. Probably around the second or third beating.

Make the ceiling fall you mean? Well, that is just more damage for the collossal creature. You just need to make sure that you're far enough away that you don't get burried as well ;)

It is too bad that I doubt people will always find themselves in situations where they'll just happen to be in a room or cave where the ceiling is exactly 30 feet above the collossal creature's head, haha.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Matrixryu wrote:
Or am I just missing something? lol.
You are actually. Beating a collossal creature against the ceiling is going make it fall. Probably around the second or third beating.

Not unless it is in a thatched roof cottage. 3d8 damage is barely going to overcome hardness on average and then will be pecking at the 60-90HP.

The Exchange

Oh god Enemy Hammer is a Force Wizard's Gag spell of choice.

And that thing used on or around cliff. Hah!


TheLoneCleric wrote:


And that thing used on or around cliff. Hah!

You realize you can just use Telekinesis for that, right? And it is against Will. An easier save to hit I imagine.


Cartigan wrote:
TheLoneCleric wrote:


And that thing used on or around cliff. Hah!
You realize you can just use Telekinesis for that, right? And it is against Will. An easier save to hit I imagine.

Hmm, Enemy Hammer doesn't even allow a save to avoid getting thrown off cliffs. The Fort save just prevents the victim from being knocked prone, he can't stop himself from being moved. The only limitation is that you're supposed to only be able to throw your victim at other enemies and objects, so you'd have to convice your gm that you're totally attacking the air above that bottomless pit.


Not against a caster..whose probably got a high will but low Fortitude.

Dark Archive

no, no, you smash the enemy into the wall of that bottomless pit, extra-damage and all that...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
TheLoneCleric wrote:


And that thing used on or around cliff. Hah!
You realize you can just use Telekinesis for that, right? And it is against Will. An easier save to hit I imagine.

Not if you're casting it at the Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/Bard.

As to cliffs, nothing to send them against unless you have a friend toss a stone off the cliff behind the target, and then hammer them at the rock (unless I'm misreading the spell, you have to hammer them into an object, not thin air).


Matrixryu wrote:


Hmm, Enemy Hammer doesn't even allow a save to avoid getting thrown off cliffs.

It would be an interesting DM indeed that let you "attack the air over the side of the cliff."

Quote:
The Fort save just prevents the victim from being knocked prone,

What.

Quote:
The target creature can make a Fortitude saving throw each time you attempt to use it as a weapon. If it makes its saving throw, it can act normally

I presumed that meant it negated the entirety of the attempted action that round.


You're right Cartigan - it's an unusual save thing. Caster picks a target, no save for that, and then gets to *try* to toss them around each round as a standard action (and you'd get to the first round of course). Fort save negates only that round, not the spell itself.


Cartigan wrote:
I presumed that meant it negated the entirety of the attempted action that round.

Yea, the wording is a little weird.

Quote:
The target creature can make a Fortitude saving throw each time you attempt to use it as a weapon. If it makes its saving throw, it can act normally, but if it fails its save, it loses all action for the round and ends its turn prone in a square adjacent to the target of your attack.

Basically, it doesn't seem to say anything about 'you only get to throw your target if he fails his save'. It seems like he still gets thrown if he succeeds on his fort save, but if he fails his save he also loses his turn and falls prone whether or not the attack even hits. The only way he can avoid getting damaged by the throw is if the wizard/sorcerer who cast the spell botches his attack roll.

It seems like they didn't want the spell's user to have to worry about both attack rolls and saving throws working against it causing damage.


You know what it also reminds me of? Bioshock 2

In Bioshock 2 you can pick up an enemy with telekinesis at the correct level, alive or dead and start flinging them around at other enemies.

Quote:

Enemy Hammer

School Transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes
You grab a creature with telekinesis and use it to batter nearby opponents or objects. You must target a specific creature when casting this spell, and once you select that creature, you cannot switch to another. Each round, as a standard action, you can attempt to hurl the target at any creature or object within 30 feet of it. You must make an attack roll whenever you use the target as a weapon. The attack bonus for this attack is equal to your caster level plus either your Intelligence or Charisma modifier (whichever is higher). If you successfully hit the new target with the creature, both it and the creature take damage based on the creature's size (Fine 1d4, Diminutive 1d6, Tiny 1d8, Small 1d10, Medium 2d6, Large 2d8, Huge 2d10, Gargantuan 3d6, Colossal 3d8). The target creature can make a Fortitude saving throw each time you attempt to use it as a weapon. If it makes its saving throw, it can act normally, but if it fails its save, it loses all action for the round and ends its turn prone in a square adjacent to the target of your attack.

Now here is a great tactic for ya. What if you fling an enemy so it that it goes through your fellow player's threaten areas? The fling foe is still an enemy, so wouldn't this be a OOA on the foe? Ya sure the opponent is being flinged but at the very least a reflex roll of 15 could be allowed to see if your friends react fast enough. Plus if your friends know that you are going to do this the DC might be lower because it is expected. You could easily kill on foe in one round and hurt another guy.


ItoSaithWebb wrote:

You know what it also reminds me of? Bioshock 2

Now here is a great tactic for ya. What if you fling an enemy so it that it goes through your fellow player's threaten areas? The fling foe is still an enemy, so wouldn't this be a OOA on the foe? Ya sure the opponent is being flinged but at the very least a reflex roll of 15 could be allowed to see if your friends react fast enough. Plus if your friends know that you are going to do this the DC might be lower because it is expected. You could easily kill on foe in one round and hurt another guy.

Wow, that's actually a good idea, assuming it works. Honestly, I think that could make the spell overpowered if does cause AoO from movement. It can already cause at least one from the enemy having to get up after being knocked prone.

Then again, it is a level 6 spell. They are supposed to be powerful.


Matrixryu wrote:


Wow, that's actually a good idea, assuming it works. Honestly, I think that could make the spell overpowered if does cause AoO from movement. It can already cause at least one from the enemy having to get up after being knocked prone.

Then again, it is a level 6 spell. They are supposed to be powerful.

I am looking through the core rules right now and just in the normal rules about OOA I am not seeing anything that would be against it.

I also don't see anything about forced movement in the book. Although I was going through with just the PDF and perhaps I am using the wrong key words. I also looked through the movement section and didn't see anything that would say it would be illegal.

I think it would again boil down to the judgment call of the GM in question. Personally I don't see anything against allowing this to happen because of a couple of reasons.

Unless all your players have combat reflexes they only get one OOA a round.

Not all characters will hit because you will have casters mixed in with melee types.

The spell is level 6 so you won't be seeing this kind of stunt until a lot later.

Lastly it seems to me like hitting a baseball!


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Matrixryu wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


Quote:

The target creature can make a Fortitude saving throw each time you attempt to use it as a weapon. If it makes its saving throw, it can act normally, but if it fails its save, it loses all action for the round and ends its turn prone in a square adjacent to the target of your attack.

Basically, it doesn't seem to say anything about 'you only get to throw your target if he fails his save'. It seems like he still gets thrown if he succeeds on his fort save, but if he fails his save he also loses his turn and falls prone whether or not the attack even hits. The only way he can avoid getting damaged by the throw is if the wizard/sorcerer who cast the spell botches his attack roll.

It seems like they didn't want the spell's user to have to worry about both attack rolls and saving throws working against it causing damage.

I don't read it that way. It says that if the target makes his saving throw, he acts normally for that turn. If he was thrown (and not even for damage), I would not consider that as being able to act normal for that turn.

Not sure why my response is part of the quote box, but my reply is the line above.


ItoSaithWebb wrote:
Lastly it seems to me like hitting a baseball!

Ahh, but you have to ready an action to hit a baseball ;)

Seriously though, the only ability in the game that this could be compared to is Bull Rush. Bull Rush doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity on the victim unless you have Greater Bull Rush. I guess you could say that this limitation was specifically put on bull rush, and that forced movement normally does cause an AoO?


Hobbun wrote:
I don't read it that way. It says that if the target makes his saving throw, he acts normally for that turn. If he was thrown (and not even for damage), I would not consider that as being able to act normal for that turn.

Honestly, if they meant it that way, that's a really vauge way of wording it. To, me 'acting normally' just means being able to take your standard and move actions, and you theoretically could do that even after being thrown across the room. If you fail the save though, it specifically says that you lose your turn and end up prone, so there you definately are not 'acting normally'.

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