Advice for Paizo to Help GM's - A Plot Map

I have seen the theme repeated over and over in the individual Adventure Path forums -Adventure paths place too much on the shoulders of the DM, when they should be able to run them without much prep work.

After running some of the AP's myself and looking back at what took the most time to prepare, the obvious result is the lack of a roadmap through the AP for the GM.

Ideally, I would like to see each AP consist of a flow chart or plot map complete with event/encounter numbers (and corresponding page numbers) as well as the various branches the plot can take within the confines of the AP.

This would go a LONG way in easing the burden on the GM, and would give the GM a 10,000 ft. view of the overarching plot direction of the AP.

Please Paizo, give it a try in the upcoming AP's reign of winter. Your GM's and ultimately your players will thank you for this helpful tool.

An example would be helpful.

I agree completely. I also think the "adventure synopsis" area should be increased, this plot map might be a good way to do that.

I shop adventures a lot. I have almost the entire Dungeon Magazine print run, as well as most Adventure Paths in print. So often I will open one to see if it is the kind of adventure I need/would like to run. I have to say that Paizo's adventures greatest weakness is that it is really hard to get to what the adventure is really about. There is so much background and distractions that I can't scan an adventure. Unfortunately reading a couple Adventure path modules is often more work then just creating my own adventure.

I feel that in the modules there are a lot of distractions. I would love to be able to pick up an adventure, look it over and say "good I'll run this, and just change a couple things". Instead I have to spend hours reading and learning about backgrounds and history and submechanics, and motives of ancient NPCs that aren't even in the adventure, that it's too tough to get to just learn about the adventure. It often causes a headache. More then once after a couple hours of reading a Paizo module I have had to cancel the gaming session the next day because I just wasn't ready.

Don't get me wrong, so much of what Paizo creates is amazing, and above and beyond the bar of its competitors. You really make amazing products and I love the adventure paths especially. I am just starting to feel that they are a little intimidating and unfocussed to the DM who wants less work not more.

I understand that many of the things I dislike (overly complicated backgrounds, new submechanics, history lessons, short stories, discussion of NPCs who don't appear in the adventure, discussion of facts that my players probably will never learn etc) are probably liked by a lot of your customers. I just wonder if there might be a better way to separate that information to make your modules more accessible for all.

I'd like to point out that there are two excellent resources that might help combat this very problem:

1) Typically, in the first issue of every new AP, there is a summary of each adventure in the AP, with a GM-Only overview of what to expect from each adventure and the general flow that will occur.

2) Each adventure has a section at the beginning listed as 'Adventure Summary' that should detail everything you're looking for in terms of preparing and knowing where the adventure goes.

That being said, these summaries do not describe every single encounter in the book, which IMHO is a good thing. I would rather have more word count/space put towards Paizo giving us more content, rather than seeing several pages used to recap stuff that is already listed in the AP. :)

The plot map or flow chart is a GRAPHICAL representation of the various events in the AP and how they are chained together.

They are not a rehash of the adventure summary nor are they meant to detail each encounter, rather they are a graphical description -like a real map of how the various events fit together in a linear fashion.

At most we would be looking at one spread in the AP, which could replace two pages of bloat/filler (the option quests in Shattered star eg.) and really would help tie the adventure together in a graphical fashion that the GM could follow and plot the PCs position.....like a map.

The plot map or flow chart is a GRAPHICAL representation of the various events in the AP and how they are chained together.

They are not a rehash of the adventure summary nor are they meant to detail each encounter, rather they are a graphical description -like a real map of how the various events fit together in a linear fashion.

At most we would be looking at one spread in the AP, which could replace two pages of bloat/filler (the option quests in Shattered star eg.) and really would help tie the adventure together in a graphical fashion that the GM could follow and plot the PCs position.....like a map.

Hmmmm, I guess that's something I just don't follow. A graphical depiction is just another means of presenting the Adventure Summary.

The idea of adding in another form of 'describing the adventure' no matter the medium, just seems like another form of what was described as 'filler'. I for one, would rather have that content put towards new material that I can use as a GM. Heck, I've been having a BLAST with the Shattered Star side quests!

In many adventures, this kind of format just wouldn't work (look at something complex like Smuggler's Shiv or almost anything in Kingmaker).

I think that even in an AP, the GM needs to spend some time reviewing the material and creating their own road map of events. I know for my run through of Second Darkness, and my current go through of Shattered Star, I've spent tons of time ensuring that I cover all the necessary AP plot points and work on the individual story of my party. That's just part of GM prep I guess.

I'll post up an example from Tempest rising later. ( tempest rising is notoriously difficult to plot because the events jump all over the place, out of order and makes the GMs job twice as hard as it needs to be)

This example will hopefully illustrate how a simple AP flowchart or plot map can streamline GM prep time.

There is obviously an issue for many GMs or the complaint wouldn't be so prevalent across the AP forums.

Hmmmm, I guess that's something I just don't follow. A graphical depiction is just another means of presenting the Adventure Summary.

Yes, but people absorb information in different ways. Broadly speaking, an individual learns best by reading or by hearing or by doing things hands on, but there are gradations and overlap within these. A picture is worth 1000 words because it's more quickly referenced.

I applaud Warrant's suggestion.

I'll post up an example from Tempest rising later. ( tempest rising is notoriously difficult to plot because the events jump all over the place, out of order and makes the GMs job twice as hard as it needs to be)

Notoriously difficult to follow Step 1 to Step 11 and to hop to the page reference if you need to?

I'd say the greatest weakness of many Paizo APs is that the individual modules are most often single-episode vignettes, which not much overlap to the overarching plot. There is a lack of recurring NPCs in those APs, like Carrion Crown and Kingmaker, leaving the GMs to shoulder that load on their own.

And I get how making more connection between the modules would be difficult, given how they are written mostly at the same time and by different authors. It's just that, as a storyteller, it is not really satisfying to build up NPCs in a module as persons, just to have them fall by the wayside when the next module begins. Yeah, I can try to include them by myself, but then why again am I buying pre-written adventures in the first place?

I put together a rudimentary plot map with some varied options for delineating how the various parts, events, and encounters fit together. I am not a graphic designer and hence do not make a map to the quality I would expect of the Paizo staff.

Someone with a good design aesthetic could put together a map of the plot full of juicy little details, pathways to other events in the AP, and places to meet Key NPC's

Here is my 5 minute Tempest Rising AP map example Tempest Flowchart

I think if you take a look at it, you can see where I am coming from and how such a map could be extremely useful for a GM. Heck the GM could even have the plot map laid out with a mini on the location of the PC's in the current AP.

A picture really IS worth 1000 words.

I for one strongly oppose this. Wasting even a half-page on a diagram that is of no use to me (I have to read, understand and adapt anyway) is a shame. Too much good material must be cut already. Cutting more for redundant infographics? Thanks, no. I get more than my share of PowerPoint.

I have to agree with TerraNova. Though I do see the value in a plot map, I would hate to lose even a single page of the AP for what is essentially compiled information from the rest of the book.

Now that being said, I think this is a fantastic idea for a community-created resource. This is exactly the sort of thing that a DM with some time on his hands could make and post for others to use. Even just the start of the one you made for Tempest Rising is very good and all it would take is a "shout out" on the appropriate GM-Reference thread.
"Hey I'm having some trouble with the sequence of events here. Can anyone do a plot map like this one?"

Bottom Line: In the AP? No thank you. Community-created? Yes

I agree with Warrant, and I would buy more APs and modules if this kind of thing was implemented.

I have trouble following the summaries sometimes, especially since sometimes they're chock full of world info that is nice background but hard to separate from THE POINT of the adventure. I would love to see a flowchart, that at a quick glance I can reference and see where the PCs are now, where they're supposed to be, and where they've been.

It would also be helpful to look at for designing one's own adventures--getting an easy, broad sense of how adventures are structured would be very useful.

I would be very willing to forego random illustration of NPC A and B to have this inserted in the product.

As the author of Tempest Rising, I did submit a plot flowchart as part of my turnover, as the investigation part of this adventure is fairly non-linear. I used the flowchart as part of my planning out the adventure. I agree with Terranova that I'd prefer to have it as an extra resource rather than in the AP itself, simply to get as much goodness as possible in the AP itself. Not every AP issue needs one, most site based adventures don't, and a lot are pretty linear, they're called Adventure Paths for a reason. That said, if enough people want them, it's something for Paizo to consider.

Also as I said in the Tempest Rising thread, if anyone who's planning on running Tempest Rising wants me to dig up the flowchart I used, update it, and post it on the boards - let me know.

Also as I said in the Tempest Rising thread, if anyone who's planning on running Tempest Rising wants me to dig up the flowchart I used, update it, and post it on the boards - let me know.

I would be very grateful if you did! Pretty please?

Btw, great adventure, I loved it!

Also as I said in the Tempest Rising thread, if anyone who's planning on running Tempest Rising wants me to dig up the flowchart I used, update it, and post it on the boards - let me know.

Yes, I think a good practical example would be great for people to see, especially those who don't think it would be worthwhile.

I would agree not every AP issue needs one, I'd expect it to appear only in the last issue of each path, and to replace a couple of pages of supplementary material such as bestiary -- c'mon, surely we can lose one two-page monster writeup over the course of an entire AP for this -- rather than any of the adventure pages proper.

Ideally, but without being a full-blown timetable, the plot map would also mark those points in the adventure where it's easiest for the GM to insert side treks, or where flex time is most likely to exist for PCs to indulge in things like item crafting.

Here it is: (not a graphical masterpiece but hopefully fairly clear)

Tempest Rising Flowchart

Here it is: (not a graphical masterpiece but hopefully fairly clear)

Tempest Rising Flowchart

Thanks!

...

2) Each adventure has a section at the beginning listed as 'Adventure Summary' that should detail everything you're looking for in terms of preparing and knowing where the adventure goes. ...

That being said, these summaries do not describe every single encounter in the book, which IMHO is a good thing.

Warrant I hope you don't feel that my point is too much of a tangent and that I am hijacking the thread, but I take it since you agreed with one of my other threads you see how are two issues are related.

I agree that the adventure summary is useful, but in my opinion it is often not detailed enough. A dungeon master should be able to read it and know in general what happens in that adventure. I would find this particularly helpful because I often read 5-6 adventures before picking one that is suitable for my group (even when I run APs, I customize quite a bit). I imagine I am not alone. I'll use "Raiders of the Fever Sea" as an example.

Writing what happens and limiting on the overly descriptive prose would be a great help. Sure it might increase space a bit, but there are PLENTY of wastes of space in a typical adventure. For example, notice on page 6 there is a SECOND summary on the index page, again one that fails to tell me what actually happens however.

Another waste of space, how about the first paragraph of the adventure background

The Free Captains are the most obvious menace of that maze of hell-cursed waterways and a thousand perilous isles and knife-edged reefs called the Shackles, but they are not its only danger, nor the worst. Nearly a century ago, Free Captain Cyrus Wolfe, a black-hearted rogue with an even blacker gift for the dark arts, plied the waters off the western coast of Garund and brought fear to hundreds of ship’s captains and crews. His daring daylight raid on the fortified Thuvian port of Aspenthar directly under the nose of that city-state’s admiralty left a dozen of the principality’s warships in flames and over a hundred of its citizens carried off as captives for ransom. For that grand audacity, Wolfe was offered the Hurricane Crown by his fellow Free Captains, but it is said that he simply laughed in their faces.

How does this paragraph help me run the AP in any way? I had to read it 3-4 times just to understand it, feels like english class all over again.

So I think where I see Warren and my complaints linked, is that they are suggestions to actually HELP DMs. I don't care if it's graphical or written, but I would like a section dedicated to telling the busy DM how the adventure is going to work. Sometimes when I read a paizo adventure, it feels like I am reading a well written story. Interesting, with depth, amazing and detailed. But thats not what I need from an adventure, I just want some cool scenarios that fit my campaign so that I can entertain my friends tomorrow.

For all the "extra content" in the adventure, (e.g. a 5 page story from pg 72 - 77) no one thought that it might be helpful to instead use that space to present a better reason why exactly the players would want to attack tidewater rock, or summarize the adventure.

Don't get me wrong, solid 5 star on paizo work, especially in comparison to the competition (don't get me started on WOTC). But a lil more attention to busy DM's would certainly make me a happier customer.

The Free Captains are the most obvious menace of that maze of hell-cursed waterways and a thousand perilous isles and knife-edged reefs called the Shackles, but they are not its only danger, nor the worst. Nearly a century ago, Free Captain Cyrus Wolfe, a black-hearted rogue with an even blacker gift for the dark arts, plied the waters off the western coast of Garund and brought fear to hundreds of ship’s captains and crews. His daring daylight raid on the fortified Thuvian port of Aspenthar directly under the nose of that city-state’s admiralty left a dozen of the principality’s warships in flames and over a hundred of its citizens carried off as captives for ransom. For that grand audacity, Wolfe was offered the Hurricane Crown by his fellow Free Captains, but it is said that he simply laughed in their faces.

How does this paragraph help me run the AP in any way? I had to read it 3-4 times just to understand it, feels like english class all over again.
So I think where I see Warren and my complaints linked, is that they are suggestions to actually HELP DMs. I don't care if it's graphical or written, but I would like a section dedicated to telling the busy DM how the adventure is going to work. Sometimes when I read a paizo adventure, it feels like I am reading a well written story. Interesting, with depth, amazing and detailed. But thats not what I need from an adventure, I just want some cool scenarios that fit my campaign so that I can entertain my friends tomorrow.

For all the "extra content" in the adventure, (e.g. a 5 page story from pg 72 - 77) no one thought that it might be helpful to instead use that space to present a better reason why exactly the players would want to attack tidewater rock, or summarize the adventure.

Personally, I think you look at this a bit differently than me or (i suspect) most other GMs. You would probably prefer a format that is "all adventure", with numbered sections after a very mechanics-focused short overview. Probably more a screenplay than what you are currently getting. 1-Page abstract, then scenes in chronological or production order.

For me, the AP is the core Golarion experience. That means, fiction(!), support articles and creatures. I'd rather give up the bestiary than lose the fiction.

Also, this is Pathfinder, a RPG in the D&D tradition. These games have never been "prep light". It is understood that you need to do some work yourself. Have trouble remembering spell effects - scan the adventure which spells you need, prepare index cards. Have story-oriented players? Ham up the stakes and social scenes.

The paragraph you posted sets the stage for the adventure. It doesn't put first things first, true - but it provides perspective.

And, no offense, it is not that complicated. I am not a native speaker, and I had no trouble with it, even at a casual glance.

Personally, I think you look at this a bit differently than me or (i suspect) most other GMs. You would probably prefer a format that is "all adventure", with numbered sections after a very mechanics-focused short overview. Probably more a screenplay than what you are currently getting. 1-Page abstract, then scenes in chronological or production order.

For me, the AP is the core Golarion experience. That means, fiction(!), support articles and creatures. I'd rather give up the bestiary than lose the fiction.

Also, this is Pathfinder, a RPG in the D&D tradition. These games have never been "prep light". It is understood that you need to do some work yourself. Have trouble remembering spell effects - scan the adventure which spells you need, prepare index cards. Have story-oriented players? Ham up the stakes and social scenes.

The paragraph you posted sets the stage for the adventure. It doesn't put first things first, true - but it provides perspective.

And, no offense, it is not that complicated. I am not a native speaker, and I had no trouble with it, even at a casual glance.

Unfortunately, some people are more time constrained (me for instance, I work full time and attend school full time), or are more graphically/visually oriented. It is easier to visualize the AP progression with a map, just as looking at an actual map is easier to visualize spatial data rather than reading it in narrative form. The adventure is a spatial event, in the fact that the PC's have to go from point A to B to C, sometimes in various order. As Hanez made clear in his posts, there is a lot of wasted space in the AP that only serves to confuse, rather than clarify the adventure.

A graphical plot map is certainly an interesting idea. In some ways, a graphical flowchart like this is like a dungeon map. It's a cool idea.

It's also really difficult to pull off, and the nature of those difficulties are significantly compounded by the fact that the AP is on a monthly schedule.

One of the big complexities about adventures currently are maps. A map has to not only be drawn correctly, but also clearly, and also has to sync up with the art. And since the person who actually orders the final map and since the person creating the map are unlikely to have read any of the adventure at all, it's up to the developer to make sure that the art director and cartographer know all they need to know to make the map match the text. Invariably, things are wrong on the first version and the developer has to give the art director changes to the map, and the art director then sends those changes on to the cartographer. These changes can happen multiple times. And they can't START happening until the adventure is developed to a point where changes to the text that affect the map (such as, Ooops... too many rooms for the wordcount, gotta cut some rooms, or Ooops this room needs to be larger for the giants who live there, or Ooops this mansion needs to have a bathroom, etc.) are nailed down. That generally doesn't happen until the last week or two weeks of the product's life cycle.

Now, a graphical presentation of an entire adventure's plot would bring all of the complexities that I just described above, but would do so in a much larger way. Because a single map is only supposed to interact with a fraction of any one adventure, but a graphical presentation of the plot affects the ENTIRE adventure.

It would be something else that the developer would have to build for the art director, and something else the art director would either have to do in house (which costs that team a lot of time) or hire a freelancer to do (which costs money that isn't in a Pathifinder AP's budget).

And making sure it's all right would be tough. And an incorrect chart would REALLY hurt.

And in the end, I'm not sure where we'd put such a chart. Assuming we could fit it all on one page (and that's probably a false assumption), it'd take up a page in the Adventure Path, and if I've learned anything, it's that folks don't like changes of that magnitude to the Adventure Path... I suspect we'd probably end up putting it on the inside back cover, but then some APs need that back cover... so we might end up putting it in the back after the Bestairy, at which point it pretty much needs to be 2 pages, since we don't really do 1 page "things" in the AP.

So, it's a good idea, but it's not something that I consider to be feasible for our products.

That said, I might suggest turning it back on the community... we already have a robust set of boards for each AP. If someone out there wants to build these flowcharts for adventures and post them for folks to use... that'd certainly be cool!

I'd rather give up the bestiary than lose the fiction.

I'm the exact opposite. I'd love to have more plot, more story related to the AP, or more mechanics than a story barely or not-at-all related to the AP itself that I'll never read.

I think James Jacob's response is enlightening in the logistical issues such a plot-map would entail. I am happy however that the issue has been discussed and folks in the company see that it is an issue for some of the time-strapped GM's. Confusion is the enemy of efficient understanding.

At the end of the day if AP designers design the adventures with a focus on clarity I would consider that a step in the right direction. I think added focus on the adventure summary at the beginning of the adventure would go a long way to clarify and point GM's in the right direction. I think site-based AP's have much less need of the type of clarity I speak of than wide-arching plots crossing multiple locales like the Skull and Shackles AP.

I am not sure how the AP's are pitched to the Paizo staff, but if someone like Matt Goodall comes to the company with a plot flow-chart as complex as Tempest Rising, maybe in those AP's there can be a little more focus in tying the disparate parts of the AP together in a concise manner. An Adventure like Tempest Rising is really rich and has a lot of depth and intrigue, it just takes a lot of time to peel away all of the plot-skins of that onion. AP's like the Shattered Star AP #5 don't require such detail as the AP is fairly straightforward, and more of a linear dungeon-type adventure.

I think I've beaten this horse to death and I am glad that the designers are interested in improvements to the AP, even when they are not always logistically feasible. If I had the free time I would community-create plot maps people needed, but alas, my free time is limited to occasional posts to the Message-boards and my weekly Pathfinder Game.

That said, I might suggest turning it back on the community... we already have a robust set of boards for each AP. If someone out there wants to build these flowcharts for adventures and post them for folks to use... that'd certainly be cool!

I like this idea. Rather than using space in the AP issue, I'd rather see flow charts from the community posted in the reference threads.

AND I could really use these. I make them up myself for some adventures. Jade Regent's Night of Frozen Shadows kept giving me problems for a while.

I have almost no use for the bestiary at all, mostly because I play "rules light" and wing my monsters quite a bit in session... but I personally would still place the bestiary far above the priority of the fiction, for me the bestiary serves the assumed purpose of an adventure (e.g. to help busy DMs run fantastic campaigns).

One thing I have loved about Paizo all the way back to when I was a subscriber of the magazines is that the company responds to customer feedback and I appreciate it.

Thank you for highlighting the logistical problems with a flowchart. I would agree with Warrant that if a flowchart is not feasible, perhaps more care could be taken on the "adventure synopsis" area. A step in the right direction would be if this small section focused on describing the flow of the adventure in a straight forward manner. That one change would make the product much more valuable to me. Thanks again for your responses everyone.

PS Tonight I am off to run my Skull and Shackles AP which started with "Souls for Smugglers Shiv", to "Raiders of the Fever Sea", onto "the lightless depths" (from Dungeon 144), "Tides of dread" (Dungeon 143) and tonight we are beginning "Curse of the Riven Sky". My "Skull and Shackles Campagin" managed to incorporate adventures from 3 different Paizo AP's and an module so far, as you can see I am a big fan mishmashing your excellent work :)

I added a spoiler tag.

How about, for people who oppose its inclusion in the pages of the AP, doing it as a small downloadable pdf, like the AP's player guides are. It could include the title of thr section, the page number, and potentially a small blurb on it. It'd be a little extra design work, but it doesn't need to be particularly graphic intensive. Just a little stylization to match the path.

How about, for people who oppose its inclusion in the pages of the AP, doing it as a small downloadable pdf, like the AP's player guides are. It could include the title of thr section, the page number, and potentially a small blurb on it. It'd be a little extra design work, but it doesn't need to be particularly graphic intensive. Just a little stylization to match the path.

Alas... finding a place for something like this to fit, be it in the print product or online, is really a small as to be almost insignificant problem. The problem of getting it done accurately and on a timely manner each month, as I outline above, is the big one... and the logistics of those problems don't change at all if we just put them up as a PDF.

AKA: It's not a little extra design work, it's the exact same amount of design work.

Well, for me the best part is to make the plot connections and of course adapting de adventuring as i see fit.

By far think that the AP are the best Campaings ever made by far because of this freedom. As a GM i allways create my plots and adventures and the AP give me total freedom to play around in the history and even the plot.

I myself use flowchart when creating campaings and i think that it will help a lot of people, bur for me, it´s geat the way it´s is.

ps: sorry any bad english

I am not sure how the AP's are pitched to the Paizo staff, but if someone like Matt Goodall comes to the company with a plot flow-chart as complex as Tempest Rising, maybe in those AP's there can be a little more focus in tying the disparate parts of the AP together in a concise manner. An Adventure like Tempest Rising is really rich and has a lot of depth and intrigue, it just takes a lot of time to peel away all of the plot-skins of that onion. AP's like the Shattered Star AP #5 don't require such detail as the AP is fairly straightforward, and more of a linear dungeon-type adventure.

I think I've beaten this horse to death and I am glad that the designers are interested in improvements to the AP, even when they are not always logistically feasible. If I had the free time I would community-create plot maps people needed, but alas, my free time is limited to occasional posts to the Message-boards and my weekly Pathfinder Game.

The APs aren't pitched to Paizo. Paizo develop a quite detailed outline for the AP, and then assign the different parts to authors. They flesh the framework out, and there' then a cycle between them and the developers to get everything in shape.

Tholomyes wrote:

How about, for people who oppose its inclusion in the pages of the AP, doing it as a small downloadable pdf, like the AP's player guides are. It could include the title of thr section, the page number, and potentially a small blurb on it. It'd be a little extra design work, but it doesn't need to be particularly graphic intensive. Just a little stylization to match the path.

Alas... finding a place for something like this to fit, be it in the print product or online, is really a small as to be almost insignificant problem. The problem of getting it done accurately and on a timely manner each month, as I outline above, is the big one... and the logistics of those problems don't change at all if we just put them up as a PDF.

AKA: It's not a little extra design work, it's the exact same amount of design work.

You could always release the proposed PDFs near the end of the completed AP, similar to the cards and monster boxes. I realise that this may be a bit "late" for a few people who get right on to a AP. But it would also have the advantage of having all 6 parts finalized allowing for intra and inter book plot maps to be developed. I personally would love to see inter-book plot maps, I am finding that Carrion Crown especially can be enhanced by understanding future parts of that AP and foreshadowing NPCs and plot elements.

Adventure Paths already have a free Player's Guide pdf attachment why not a GM's Guide as well. The plot flowchart and other tips and advice for the GM would be a great resource to add in. One thing that I have noticed is that information appears later in the AP that would have been very helpful in understanding what is going on at the start of the AP and a GM Guide could lay that stuff out so the GM has a better grasp on the whole picture.

A GM's Guide or plot maps would add additional work to the scedule, regardless of when they'd be released. We've been doing monthly Adventure Paths for about 7 years now, and in that time we've gotten pretty good at figuring out just how much can be produced for a single AP without falling off schedule.

Adding GM's Guides and plot maps would more or less require us to go away from a monthly AP Schedule, which is not an option.

Adventure Paths already have a free Player's Guide pdf attachment why not a GM's Guide as well. The plot flowchart and other tips and advice for the GM would be a great resource to add in. One thing that I have noticed is that information appears later in the AP that would have been very helpful in understanding what is going on at the start of the AP and a GM Guide could lay that stuff out so the GM has a better grasp on the whole picture.

When the first book comes out, the third through fifth books are being written-- the third is about to get turned over for final editing or processed for layout and the fifth is notes and blinking bar on someone's word processor. The sixth is an assignment.

This may be wrong-- it might be the fourth through sixth books-- but it's a fact that the entire Adventure Path isn't done when the first book comes out. There's actually almost no way for the writer and editor of the first book to know exactly what's up in the sixth because it likely is just a collection of notes in the AP bible and that's about it.

If you want to know what's going to happen in the sixth book before you run the first, wait for the sixth book to come out before you run the first. It's a popular option for a reason.

Asked and answered, everyone. I'm among those who would love to see plot maps, but James has explained why it can't happen as part of the APs and isn't practical as a separate staff produced product; it will have to be fan created if it happens at all.

Thomas LeBlanc should have a lot of free time on his hands now that voting has closed for Round 1 of Superstar 2013. Maybe he'll do some plot maps. :)

I agree about the usefulness of this, but also understand the problem and difficulty.

But that level of difficulty of the professionals getting it correct, also gives credence to the GM's difficulty of understanding the big picture.

I use xmind for mind maps for school and a few things for my game. Check it out, it is free. I am going to start making flow charts like the one described and see how it comes out.

I will post it under the correct AP forum. Look for it next week. I am not sure if I am going to start with Jade Regent, which I understand better, or Shattered Star which is more current.

But that level of difficulty of the professionals getting it correct, also gives credence to the GM's difficulty of understanding the big picture.

Wow! This is a really key point you hit on here Komoda. This distills the issue down to a succinct and clarified statement to really put the issue into perspective. When the creators and visionaries behind the adventures would be hard pressed to make an accurate, and timely synopsis picture of their OWN AP, you can see how the outside GM who is the consumer of the content has to synthesize this plot together him or herself, an undertaking that DOES take a lot of time and effort.

I think in the end, if the plots inside the AP's follow branches more organically and clearly, it may make the issue less important in GM's minds.

Somewhat related .. In one of the Razor Coast interviews with Lou he was talking about plot webs. He and Nic Lough seam to both be big proponents of them. The interview is at http://www.conmenpodcast.com/2928/episodes/episode-17-razor-coast/

At one point he talks about Realm Works ( http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=realm_works ). Which looks like a future possible solution for GMs that want to trade or work on plot webs. If I start DMing a lot it's definitely something I might be interested in.

This isn't limited to Adventure Paths - Pathfinder Society scenarios could use more simplicity as well, despite their size.

Here is my first Plot Map for Jade Regent.

Enjoy Plot Map.

I for one strongly oppose this. Wasting even a half-page on a diagram that is of no use to me (I have to read, understand and adapt anyway) is a shame. Too much good material must be cut already. Cutting more for redundant infographics? Thanks, no. I get more than my share of PowerPoint.

Normally I would agree with you as I would not want any material that would take away from the AP in anyway in this the book itself. To me the plot overview is a good thing though and with that being said. Instead of putting it IN the book why not use it as an add-on through the internet :)

This is a good idea. A flow chart of the main encounters or something maybe? I'm a visual thinker and always like to make a flow chart or web for campaigns so I can see it all in one piece instead of looking through it sequentially.

However, I see how that could be hard to work out for a general audience, since so often things have to be improvised and tailored to different group play styles. For instance, I usually run games with small parties (2-3 usually but have done solo many times as well) and end up having to modify most of the encounters and treasures to account for gaps in the players' abilities anyway.

I mentioned Realm Works earlier they have a Kickstarter going and there is discussion about it in the compatible products forum. They are talking about supporting adventures etc. I'm not supporting it at this point because I just don't play enough but this to me would be the perfect way to deal with adventure paths etc.

Realm Works has a nice flow chart for plots and time lines and anything else you can think of. It is an awesome program!! :)

A plot flow chart would be great! Perhaps it could be made after all the AP installments have been released as a separate product or part of a map pack for the AP. Then it could also be on a bigger sheet of paper.

But if Paizo doesn't want to do it, it wouldn't be THAT hard to do yourself, and it would help cement the plot in your mind.

Honestly, I'd just like to see more detailed spoilers for the plot in book one. I tend to buy adventure paths all at once before I run them, so I can read the whole thing and plan things out, which meant I knew there was no mention of Kawdswaan later in Legacy of Fire (despite the note there is) and could prepare accordingly but because my friend who ran the Carrion Crown bought them as we reached each scenario he claims there was no mention that we were meant to encounter the main villain before the end until the final book.

Whether with graphics or not, simply mentioning things that the GM should be prepared for to help foreshadow things would be a good way to make things run a little more smoothly. Two pages of things a GM should know...

I've had a look at these plot maps and they are not useful to me. I find that I prepare best by reading the plot and running through the encounters in my mind. I then ask myself questions about the plot, why are the PC's doing x? What if they do y? And so on.

The point is that everyone prepares for AP's in different ways. Mind maps work for a lot of people and that's great but putting them into AP's would take too much work for the writers for something which will only be useful for a percentage of GM's.

That said I reckon it's a great opportunity for a community project on these boards. Start with Burnt Offerings (or even Life's Bazaar if you want to go back that far) and work your way through systematically.

It's a chance to do something productive, I'd like to see it done even if it's not of much use to me personally.

As a writer I can tell you that I and most other writers I know map the plots of their stories out ahead of time. It's kind of required to tell a cohesive story. Usually this "map" is in the form of an outline. Now there are those who "discovery write" with no map or outline at all, but pure discovery writers are rather rare. Even a lot of writers who consider themselves discovery writers have at least a basic outline in their mind of where the plot's going.

Converting an outline to a flowchart isn't hard at all. I do it every day for biology labs.