Unbalanced Group, what to do?

Hello great community!
After the last session (yesterday) our group was a little unsatisfied and we talked about how to proceed.

We are playing rise of the Runelords and are currently level 6. We are one ranger, a Magus-kensai and a conjuration-wizard. Our DM was annoyed by the high damage output of the magus(2 attacks with high dex to attack and damage(like static +15)+ shocking grasp for 7d6) just one shots cr equal creatures, while he is also incredibly hard to hit(28 with shield and cats grace, mage armor would have upped it to 31). The player itself understands the problem, that he is very optimized, while the others are optimized, but not that extreme(well I try to get to the best, but somehow my summons are not considered that strong). So one option would be, that he makes a new character, but it's not a good solution, creating a "weaker" concept even feels bad for me.

The gm correctly said, that by just upping the attacks, ac and hp of enemy's the impact of the magus will be reduced, but along we will be completely useless.

Somebody got an idea, what to do?

The way to handle the Magus damage spike isn't to use stronger monsters, but to use more monsters. The Magus has very limited daily resources and against weaker monsters his shocking grasp spike will simply overflow their HP and waste much of his potential. The Magus will still be a beast against boss enemies, but shouldn't completely dominate the field.

The harder thing to handle is actually his AC, since when fully-buffed he can pretty much ignore attacks from any monster below CR 6. The answer here is to fight fire with fire; the enemies should use buffs of their own to close the gap. They don't need that much of a bonus, just enough to make them credible threats; a 25% chance to hit is plenty if there are five or six of them.

How is he getting that AC? For Mage Armor to help, he can't be wearing armor. Cat's Grace and Shield combine to only a +6, and Shield doesn't last long.

How is he getting that AC? For Mage Armor to help, he can't be wearing armor. Cat's Grace and Shield combine to only a +6, and Shield doesn't last long.

Kensai gets Int-to-AC; it's not really that outlandish for his level, presuming a high point buy and optimized stat spread. Maybe something like this:

10 + 6 dex + 5 int + 4 armor + 4 shield + 1 deflection + 1 natural = 31 AC

Shocking Grasp damage is supposed to max out at 5d6. How was the magus able to bump that up to 7d6?

If Mage Armor increases his AC from 28 to 31, he must already be wearing something that gives him an armor bonus of +1, most likely a haramaki.

So the magus's AC with no armor and with no spells giving temporary buffs is 21. He can add his Int mod as well as his Dex mod to his AC and may not have mentioned all of his feats and magic items, so an unbuffed AC of 21 is certainly doable.

Still -- with Mage Armor as the only one of the defensive spells mentioned that can be cast well in advance of combat, the GM can accomplish a lot be starting combat before the magus has time to buff, thereby giving him the hard choice of not contributing anything to combat as he buffs himself or of going into combat with his AC not yet up to where he wants it.

This is a real problem. Since you're playing RoTR, it's safe to assume that the DM isn't home-building encounters. So all the suggestions to throw more/different challenges at the party aren't useful.

If the opponents can't be changed, that only leaves the party. A straight ranger isn't going to keep up with the spike-damage that the magus can offer. A bunch of summons are great for crowd-control once they're around, but are much, much weaker at actually doing anything than either the ranger or the magus.

So really, you've got a party that's about defense/control, moderate average damage, and spike-damage. Three PCs with very different capability to end a combat. The only way to change this is to change this. Meaning someone - or everyone - needs to reconsider their contribution and adjust, if the group isn't happy.

With only three PCs, there's a huge action-economy thing happening, with the magus able to influence the combat heavily, before your summons even come on the table.

I'd suggest that maybe your wizard picks up Leadership at 7th, and supplements its ability to influence the game by a reasonable (not over-powered) cohort. That's also an option for the ranger, who could add something like a cleric or inquisitor.

I would suggest that the Magus player change his style a bit. If he uses his spell combat spell as a group buff spell, rather than an alpha strike it will probably both make the character less in the spotlight stealing the glory and the party more effective. Level 7 he will have haste, which would be a great choice for that.

Thanks for the hint regarding more monsters, but still, via ray of frost (arcana for change range) it's two hits, so unless you throw in two bosses, there won't be a difference while the Ranger will get more problems staying away from melee/the wizard gets punched..
As far as I know, he gets like +6 dex, +4 int (canny defence) +2 cats grace +4 mages armor +4 shield (maybe +1 trough amulet, idk)

Ah, I keep forgetting about Spell Combat.

So he is still one level away from getting to BAB +6 and thus having to make a real choice about whether to use Spell Combat or do a full attack.

And the monsters have very limited time to get in their hits before he is fully buffed.

As far as I know, he gets like +6 dex, +4 int (canny defence) +2 cats grace +4 mages armor +4 shield (maybe +1 trough amulet, idk)

Something wrong here, or at least unusual.

+6 Dex means a score of 22 or 23. At 6th level, you've had one ability boost (4th). Meaning that at 1st level the character had a Dex of at least 21. Now, maybe you've picked up a Dex magic item but... the thing is that cat's grace doesn't stack with magic items. You get the highest number, with cat's grace offering +4. So if the character has a +2 belt of dex, it does nothing while cat's grace is providing the +4 bonus. If the character has a +4 item, then the spell is absolutely pointless.

The player may be double-dipping here.

To have Int +4 you're looking at a score of 18. Assuming a +2 Dex item, they have a base Dex score of 19 at 1st. This is... weird, even for a generous 25-point build.

Shocking Grasp damage is supposed to max out at 5d6. How was the magus able to bump that up to 7d6?

Intensified Spell Metamagic, usually combined with the Magical Lineage trait so it's still a 1st level spell. The extra +1 caster level may be coming from Mage's Tattoo (Evocation).

This is a real problem. Since you're playing RoTR, it's safe to assume that the DM isn't home-building encounters. So all the suggestions to throw more/different challenges at the party aren't useful.

Completely disagree here; the entire point of having a GM, as opposed to just playing a video game, is that you have someone who can be responsive to the specific game unfolding at your table. Adjusting combat encounters to deliver the most satisfying experience is part of that job description.

I can understand if you're in organized play and have your hands tied, or if you're a novice GM still learning the ropes, but for an experienced GM making adjustments to an adventure is part of your job. You should have notes prepared for any combat encounters likely to occur in the the upcoming session, and making small adjustments is an normal part of this prep process that you can work into your pre-session routine.

I'm running my second group through Rise of the Runelords and let me just say, your group will need that alpha strike capability.

Runelords was built on the standard "Fighter/Wizard/Rogue/Cleric" group, so with missing the Cleric portion you're going to have to rely on killing things before they can "do unto you" - otherwise you're going to have all sorts of issues.

The first book or two might seem like he's just OP, but as you get farther in you're going to need that Boom, especially if your DM isn't willing to adjust the "as-written" to accommodate your group makeup. On the whole, higher level things means smarter things - especially if bad guys start learning about his tactics before fighting him...

Personally, I would just let all the fights be a cakewalk and focus more on the other elements of the game. The magus spent a lot of energy to be good at one thing, so just downplay that one thing. Or rather than buffing the enemies, let them die in one hit, so it doesn't matter how much damage someone does.

Personally, I would just let all the fights be a cakewalk and focus more on the other elements of the game. The magus spent a lot of energy to be good at one thing, so just downplay that one thing. Or rather than buffing the enemies, let them die in one hit, so it doesn't matter how much damage someone does.

The problem seems to be that the other players don't feel like they are contributing much in combat, and they aren't having much fun and that is a real problem. I would also expect that most of the players enjoy the combat aspect of the game (if they can contribute anyway) so just taking that out isn't going to be satisfying either. That is a real problem and does need to be address somehow. In most games, combat takes a lot of the available playtime and making it fun for everyone is something the entire group should be aiming for.

Magus needs a full attack to do that; gm tactics dictate who gets first full attack I would think. That AC requires questionable stats, and, for Shield, prebuffing. Rule of thumb, don’t let optimizing players prebuff very often. Game is balanced at least in part with the assumption that 1 min/level buffs will be requiring standard actions in combat.

Also, I would expect that the Kensai AC is really hitting a peak right there. He’s been getting 1 AC/level so far from Canny Defense; looks like that just stopped. His Grasp will get up to 10d6 eventually, but in general his damage output isn’t going to ramp up very much moving forward. Just looks like he’s at his peak right now, and if that’s the case, might be okay to let him shine a bit for a while.

There's no perfect option. The magus is very versatile. If you start throwing larger numbers of enemies at them, he'll just switch to using anti-group spells, or worse, talk the party into resting after every fight, so he can contribute.

If you don't want to downplay combat or nerf the magus, then the only remaining option is to buff the rest of the party while raising the difficulty. The GM could try giving the other characters 1 mythic tier and see if that makes up the difference. But this option still isn't "fair", because the magus is basically being relatively penalized for being optimal. In the end, this is very little different than nerfing the magus.

My to copper, as someone who's played through book three, and is running, currently book 4... I'm going to second the fact that things take a significant uptick in challenge in various forms in the near future.

If your party does what mine (foolishly ... it lead to a TPK) did in book 3 ... well, Summoner Wizard will be MVP, if you get out alive.

At L6, you are also probably coming up on one or more of the ... deadly encounters. Bodies are likely to hit the floor, based on others play experiences.

This might end up fixing the situation with least fuss, long term, as one or more PC's get replaced through attrition.

That said, everyone's game is different. Different party make ups, and different tactical choices can make a big difference. Like, fer

Adding 1 or 2 extra mooks is generally, the easiest option for a stressed GM.

Encounter calls for 3 Goblin warrior 1's, and a Goblin bard 2 boss? OK, 5 goblin warrior 1's.

Also, could nudge your GM to ask for some advice with specific sections if they're worried. RotRL is a VERY popular path, and more than a few people have experienced things from their side of the table.

At level 6 your Wizard is just starting to come into his own. With a summon focus, hopefully you are primarily looking at the controller role so you aren't really competing with the Magus for damage. So I wouldn't worry to much about party balance there.

The problem might be able to be fixed with looking at the Ranger. Since he is trying to say away from melee, he must be an archer, which usually is very strong style and should be on par with the Magus as far as damage output goes. You mention though that he is having difficulties getting full attacks, and I can see two ways to address that.

One is for your wizard to do a better job at control. With a difficult to hit Magus and a few summons the ranger can hopefully stay out of melee better. The second is for the ranger to use is animal companion (or retrain to get one if he doesn't have one) as a mount. Mounted archery (the tactic, not the feat which you really don't need) is a very flexible combat style allowing great movement and full attacks every turn. Of course at 6th level I would also expect an archer ranger to have the point blank master feat, which also solves the problem and if he doesn't have it, you might want to point it out to him.

I'm curious what the Ranger's build is? At sixth level they should be quite competitive with the Magus because Manyshot just came online.

AC sounds right (albeit a point or two high) and same with damage assuming he's using his Arcane Pool to boost his weapon. There's a few issues here:

1) Your GM is letting him buff twice (Cat's Grace and Shield) before wading into combat, which will exacerbate the problem. But conversely, if your Magus is able to buff like that, is there a reason the Wizard isn't able to do the same buffing and also potentially drop summons before the battle starts to act as meat shield?

2) The whole two attacks thing only works if the Magus doesn't have to take more than a 5 foot step. So yes, the Magus has high nova damage, but a level 6 Magus doesn't actually have a LOT of staying power, especially with the reduced spellcasting and tradeaway of Spell Recall (Frostbite is actually deadlier than Shocking Grasp over multiple rounds). Furthermore, 7d6+15 is only about 40 average damage...Combat Manager is showing almost no CR6 mooks with less than 50 HP.

3) The Ranger should definitely be putting out a lot of damage. My theorycrafted Orc Hornbow-wielding Ilsurian Archer is doing at least +10/+10/+5 to do (2d6+7)*4 damage (if you aren't as optimized as that, you should be [1d8+5]*4 damage). That's 14 damage per arrow (10 for the lesser-optimized archer) and you didn't have to wade into melee. The Ranger can do this consistently and at multiple ranges while the Magus is much more limited. It actually doesn't make sense that the Ranger is acting as the shield for the Wizard when it sounds like the Magus is going to be a more effective tank.

The magus is blowing a lot of his spells on the one fight. Don't forget that Kensai reduces his spells per day for ALL levels by one. This means he has 4 0-level, 3 1st level, and 2 2nd level spells, plus bonus, leaving him with 4 1st level and 3 2nd level. So, in the first fight, he's blowing through minimum of 2/3rds of his spells, just by defensive buffs for one fight and one attack, going on the assumption he prepared 2 shocking grasps, a shield, and q mage armor. Yes, he can replace Shocking Grasp with Ray of Frost, but then his bonus damage is going from 7d6, a solid hit at this level, to 1d3. Not exactly impressive. Plus, the defensive bluffs he cast will, if he's lucky, take him through 2 fights. After that, what's his plan? A single dispel magic would ruin his day. Or a ninja with Vanishing Trick, or anyone making a feint. A successful feint, after all, knocks out both his Dex bonus and his Int bonus to AC. We're talking a 10 point reduction to AC for a single action.

The way to defeat a magus, foes that come in waves shortly after each other. They will run out of resources. Also be aware that there are some VERY deadly encounters in that adventure path which can conform to the tactic described above.

It sounds like your GM may have his expectations for CR off. A CR Equal encounter should get demolished quickly, particularly when the party is buffed. A CR equal to your party should take roughly 25% of your resources to fight, meaning you should be able to do 3 before the 4th one puts you in real danger.

On the other hand, it also sounds like you guys have a very high point buy, meaning your parties APL is probably slightly higher than your GM has calculated it to be. There's a good chance that those CR=APL encounters are actually CR-1 or CR-2 encounters. Getting your encounters into a normal CR may require some modifying.

Perhaps an audit of your parties characters is in order. It sounds as though your magus may have too high a static bonus to damage and your ranger may be underpowered. An Archer Ranger should be pumping death downrange, particularly with a high point buy. He should have 3-4 attacks per round, with each dealing minimum 1d8+5 damage (Assuming at least an enchanted +1 composite longbow and 18 Str). He shouldn't be mixing it up in melee either, your team should be enabling him to full attack melt any priority targets. He should be buffing too! Gravity Bow is a 1st level ranger spell.

And your summoning wizard shouldn't be getting punched in the face on the regular, that's what your cannon fodder is for. When your cannon fodder isn't ready, your magus should be guarding you, not your ranger. Some coordinated teamwork may solve a couple of your issues.