Deskari One Turn Kill

So, we killed Deskari in one turn. Since this seems kinda broken, I'm posting what we did here to see if we missed something.

The quest reward for Closing the Worldwound lets us take any boons from the box. Balazar, having the largest hand size, takes Orengofta. First turn of Justifiable Deicide, Balazar plays Orengofta and puts Deskari on top of the location deck. Balazar explores, encounters Deskari and the group drops everything they have on him. One turn kill. The villain is dead, can't escape and we don't see any other victory conditions.

Was this actually a legit win? o_O Even if we couldn't take Orengofta as a quest reward, I can definitely see future Wrath parties going out of their way to obtain and keep him just for this purpose.

You did play it "correctly" in terms of nothing you did was disallowed by the rules (I suspect it goes against the intent of the scenario, but seeing as I'm not Mike I can't comment on that aspect of it). As-written, Justifiable Deicide has lots of problems in my opinion. Consider losing against a henchman -- that'll shuffle the deck and maybe put Deskari on top, no special powers needed. I'd play it so that Deskari doesn't even appear until the location deck is empty. Then you can't possibly encounter him early :)

This is how I'd rewrite the scenario to enforce taking the Fun Path:

You did play it "correctly" in terms of nothing you did was disallowed by the rules (I suspect it goes against the intent of the scenario, but seeing as I'm not Mike I can't comment on that aspect of it). As-written, Justifiable Deicide has lots of problems in my opinion. Consider losing against a henchman -- that'll shuffle the deck and maybe put Deskari on top, no special powers needed. I'd play it so that Deskari doesn't even appear until the location deck is empty. Then you can't possibly encounter him early :)

This is how I'd rewrite the scenario to enforce taking the Fun Path:
** spoiler omitted **

I think you also need something about only being able to close once all the henchmen are killed (as normally the henchmen will allow you to make a close check after the first is defeated)

I'm 100% for making this scenario non-hackable... Only real heroes can slay their way into legend....

I think you also need something about only being able to close once all the henchmen are killed (as normally the henchmen will allow you to make a close check after the first is defeated)

The location itself deals with that since it says it can't be closed until it's empty.

Matsu Kurisu wrote:

I think you also need something about only being able to close once all the henchmen are killed (as normally the henchmen will allow you to make a close check after the first is defeated)

The location itself deals with that since it says it can't be closed until it's empty.

Doesn't the same thing prevent you from closing the location if the villain is on top? It seems similar to the Abyssal Rift. And if you can't close that one, can you really close the Rasping Rifts?

That would actually mean that in your epic jaunt through the Rasping Rifts, if you do anything that shuffles the location deck, you might be in serious trouble, unless you can get the villain back to the bottom of the location deck.

The location and scenario specify henchmen in regards to not closing the location. I'm inclined to say this means defeating Diskari closes the rift like any other location. But nothing says you have to close anything.

Anyway, Skizzers is right that we have totally defied the intention of the scenario. Our first plan was to lose to the very first henchman and shuffle the deck. Plan two was to use an Augury we'd included from a class deck. And then somebody brought up Orengofta whom we'd completely ignored until now.

Hum. To win scenario you must corner Deskari. Hence you must close Rifts. Hence Rifts must be empty (even defeating villain does not close). This is due to golden rules on order of priorities between cards and rulebook.
If not tell me where I am wrong.

The location and scenario specify henchmen in regards to not closing the location. I'm inclined to say this means defeating Diskari closes the rift like any other location. But nothing says you have to close anything.

Ah. I see. I haven't looked closely at the cards in deck 6 yet.

No, wait. I just checked. The location's "At This Location" power mentions henchmen not letting you attempt to close. But the "When Closing" just simply says you can't close it unless it is empty, with no mention of henchman. That does make it very similar to the Abyssal Rift.

hmm. That may be the case, but then you don't even have to defeat Deskari, you just have to sacrifice someone to him.
The location auto closes when there is no cards in it. So Deskari has no where to escape to.

Then the reward for the scenario is "everyone lives".

Hum. To win scenario you must corner Deskari. Hence you must close Rifts. Hence Rifts must be empty (even defeating villain does not close). This is due to golden rules on order of priorities between cards and rulebook.

If not tell me where I am wrong.

How I wish this were the case, but it isn't :(

The text "This location may not be closed until it is empty, then it closes automatically" appears in the "When Closing" box. Defeating a villain bypasses that box and just closes it. Contrast that with Abyssal Rift, where the text "This location is never permanently closed." appears in the "When Permanently Closed" box -- that text is not bypassed so it applies to everything.

Relevant rules:

If You Defeat the Villain, Close the Villain's Location. You do not need to fulfill the When Closing requirement. Examine the location deck; if there are no additional villains in it, banish all of the cards. The location is permanently closed, and the location's When Permanently Closed effect is triggered.

This tells us in pretty plain language that we ignore whatever When Closing says. Since the text that says the location deck must be empty is in When Closing, it does not apply to defeating villains.

When you have the opportunity and want to close a location, do whatever the location's When Closing section says. Locations often require specific checks to close them; otherwise, they list specific tasks you must perform. (If a location says you may close it automatically, you don't need to do anything else.) If the When Closing text offers multiple options separated by "or," you must take your choice of options before you make any rolls or play any cards. If you succeed at meeting the When Closing requirement, search the location deck for villains. If you find any, banish all non-villain cards from the location deck. The location is not closed--but at least you know where the villains are!

This paragraph is problematic, because nowhere does it actually state that it only applies to attempting to close a location, or which bits of it only apply to attempting to close a location. If the paragraph always applies, then we can never automatically close a location outside of beating a villain without still doing the When Closing requirements, which we all know is wrong*. The exception for the text "automatically close" only applies to the location card itself and not any other cards.

If it only applies to attempting to close (as is implied), then that means simply closing it bypasses that paragraph and therefore you ignore the When Closing box entirely because there is nothing in the rules stating you need to read and follow it. Given what Mike said about Runelord Alderpash on another thread, we know that this interpretation is wrong (at the very least, wrong intent-wise even if the rules framework allows or implies it to be the correct reading).

I therefore believe that the correct reading of that paragraph is that cards that automatically close the location (not counting villains since they have their own paragraph that mimics these steps while explicitly bypassing When Closing, but does count Armies and Runelord Alderpash) count as automatically succeeding at any When Closing requirements. That way you still follow the When Closing box for those cards, meaning The Rasping Rift cannot be closed until it is empty by Armies and Runelord Alderpash (the scenario power nominally doesn't prevent Armies from closing, because that power only applies to henchmen that give you attempts to close, not henchmen that simply close).

If you can't close out unless empty, then you're hosed if it's the last location. If you defeat him, you can't close out yet, and it's available for him to move to. The only reason defeated villains can't escape to the original location is because you close it before escaping. That doesn't happen here, so he escapes to where he came from. If you lose, then obviously it's open and he still escapes there.

Unless there's relevant card text that hasn't been posted of course, haven't looked through 6 yet. I like scenarios like this that make you strategerize.

Skizzerz, cards overrule the book. The book says close on defeat, but the card overrules and says no.

If you can't close out unless empty, then you're hosed if it's the last location. If you defeat him, you can't close out yet, and it's available for him to move to. The only reason defeated villains can't escape to the original location is because you close it before escaping. That doesn't happen here, so he escapes to where he came from. If you lose, then obviously it's open and he still escapes there.

Unless there's relevant card text that hasn't been posted of course, haven't looked through 6 yet. I like scenarios like this that make you strategerize.

Skizzerz, cards overrule the book. The book says close on defeat, but the card overrules and says no.

There's only one location in this scenario; the intent is that you have to bash through a veritable gauntlet of the strongest banes before you can get to the villain. And yes, cards do overrule the book, if the bit on the card that would be overruling would actually apply. Which it does not. The card text that overrules is in the When Closing section. The book tells us that when we defeat a villain we ignore the When Closing section. As a result, the card doesn't get the opportunity to overrule the book because we never even apply that text in the first place.

Matsu Kurisu wrote:

I think you also need something about only being able to close once all the henchmen are killed (as normally the henchmen will allow you to make a close check after the first is defeated)

The location itself deals with that since it says it can't be closed until it's empty.

Have just got my deck 6 and seen the location today :-)

The book tells us that when we defeat a villain we ignore the When Closing section. As a result, the card doesn't get the opportunity to overrule the book because we never even apply that text in the first place.

Point.

So it's like... I can't remember who, I think it was Karzoug in Runelords 6-5, that had a power that forced him to the bottom of the only location when he was encounter without an otherwise empty location.

There's a sea devil villain in Shackles like this. Krelloort maybe?

I think it was Karzoug in Runelords 6-5, that had a power that forced him to the bottom of the only location when he was encounter without an otherwise empty location.

If only... He is just undefeated, so you better have your Auguries, Spyglasses and Brodert Quinks ready going in...

When you close The Rasping Rifts, summon and encounter the villain Deskari. You win the scenario only if Deskari is defeated.

This is problematic as it only gives you one shot at Deskari. Since he's summoned you don't shuffle him back in the closed location, and you obviously you can't close the location a second time to summon him again.

Ah OK, maybe it was Krellort then, I remember something similar in Shackles. It sounds like every AP has someone who's just a complete jerk who pushes everyone in front to die first...

Wow this is intriguing. We haven't managed to try it yet. So is the trick of losing to a henchmen (shuffling), orengofta moving deskari up and/or using tricks like enora scholar ability to pull the villian up before the henchmen actually work? It seems one school of thought says no but another yes.

I'm inclined to say that Deskari can't escape into the Rifts location once defeated. Even if other villains were present to keep the location open, Deskari itself would still be banished. As the rulebook puts it: "If any villains remain in the deck , banish everything except the remaining villains and shuffle the deck; the location is not permanently closed, but if there are no other open locations for the villain to escape to, banish the villain." If a defeated villain could escape into the location it came from, that would mean all villains in all scenarios are undefeatable. I don't think the rule about cards taking precedent over the rulebook applies here since there is no contradiction between the card and rulebook. The location doesn't have to close. Deskari just has to be defeated.

Having said all that, I think this issue will just be left up to personal interpretation unless we get a FAQ entry or some-such.

The text "This location may not be closed until it is empty, then it closes automatically" appears in the "When Closing" box. Defeating a villain bypasses that box and just closes it. Contrast that with Abyssal Rift, where the text "This location is never permanently closed." appears in the "When Permanently Closed" box -- that text is not bypassed so it applies to everything.

Relevant rules:

WotR rulebook, p17 wrote:

If You Defeat the Villain, Close the Villain's Location. You do not need to fulfill the When Closing requirement. Examine the location deck; if there are no additional villains in it, banish all of the cards. The location is permanently closed, and the location's When Permanently Closed effect is triggered.

This tells us in pretty plain language that we ignore whatever When Closing says. Since the text that says the location deck must be empty is in When Closing, it does not apply to defeating villains.

It doesn't tell you to ignore what it says in the When Closing box—it just says you don't need to fulfill any requirements there. There are no requirements there, just a statement. If it had said something like "you must empty this location to close it," *that* would be a requirement.

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification! :)

That does make the scenario work as written without modification, although it's quite nasty if you shuffle Deskari up as it means you'll have to beat him multiple times to win... ouch. At that point I think I'd just run out the blessings deck and restart.

Wait.. A bit weird.. you'll still banish all the henchmen cards after defeating deskari. He goes back in and fight one more time?

Per the previous ruling for the Abyssal Rift, that Hawk liked above, you never get to the banishing other cards, because the location cannot be closed.

Now this leaves us with having to defeat every Henchman, but not having to defeat Deskari, as the location closes when you encounter the last card.

Thanks Vic. Happy to know my vision of things (see above) was OK.

That does make the scenario work as written without modification, although it's quite nasty if you shuffle Deskari up as it means you'll have to beat him multiple times to win... ouch. At that point I think I'd just run out the blessings deck and restart.

You basically have to have a run of perfect encounters made up of perfect checks. Seems logical for something like deicide.

Per the previous ruling for the Abyssal Rift, that Hawk liked above, you never get to the banishing other cards, because the location cannot be closed.

Now this leaves us with having to defeat every Henchman, but not having to defeat Deskari, as the location closes when you encounter the last card.

The villain is start part of the location deck even when you are encountering him. In fact, he's the top card.

After you flip over the top card of the location deck, put it on top of the deck and read it. Then go through the following steps in order.

So, it doesn't close the moment you encounter him and he is the last card. He only stops being part of the location deck when you defeat him. Then he's set aside for the blessing shuffle. At that moment, the location closes and there are no open locations. Then you win.

Hawk,
I have to look up the exact wording and where it is at, but why would there be language of "if it came from a location deck" istead of "if it is part if a location deck"

Thanks

Per the previous ruling for the Abyssal Rift, that Hawk liked above, you never get to the banishing other cards, because the location cannot be closed.

Ahh! Reread carefully. Very nicely done. Thanks tali/vic/hawk/everyone... good gawd.. don't ever shuffle the rift... or change deskari's position in the deck... sonofa...!! I like.. mmm... no loophole... Nice.. very nice...

Hawk,

I have to look up the exact wording and where it is at, but why would there be language of "if it came from a location deck" istead of "if it is part if a location deck"

Thanks

Ah. Rereading what you said originally, I misunderstood a bit what you were saying. I thought you were saying "The exact moment you encounter the last card, the location closes." As in, "as soon as I flip the villain over, the location is closed." And that is why I said, "There is still a card during the encounter."

But, what I think you were getting at, is that when the villain is undefeated, he stops being part of the location deck. And at that moment, the location is closed. So, it doesn't happen at the start of the encounter, but one way or another it happens at the end of the encounter.

Hmm... We'll I'll have to think about that a bit.

I'm not going to touch on the above can of worms because I know what the answer should be (namely, if you beat Deskari and the location is empty, you win; if you beat him and it isn't empty or if you don't beat him regardless of number of cards remaining, he's shuffled back) but I don't see any way that the rulebook supports that interpretation. I would, however, like to issue a formal request at Vic and co to make your card templating consistent. The Rasping Rifts has "cannot be closed" in the When Closing box. Every other location in existence that has funky stuff (Abyssal Rift, Middle of Nowhere) has it in When Permanently Closed. This discrepancy lead me to believe that there was a difference between the two, when apparently there is not. I therefore ask that you pick one location for such text and stick with it instead of throwing it wherever, as I can't imagine I was the only person confused by this (only person on the forums, maybe, but I suspect the majority of the players do not post on or even read these forums, and therefore have to rely on what the rulebook and their gut says is correct for resolving inconsistencies like these).

I honestly feel that these types of powers should be in the At This Location box, even though they relate to closing.

At This Location. These are special powers that are in effect while this location is open. Some of these remain in effect when the location is permanently closed; in that case, they also appear on the back of the location card.

When Closing. When you have the opportunity to close a location and want to do so, you must perform this task. Usually you get the opportunity to close a location after a henchman is defeated there (when this is the case, the henchman will say so) or after the location deck runs out of cards (see Closing a Location on page 15). When you close a location, flip it over. The villain can no longer escape to this location, though characters can still move there.

When Permanently Closed. When a location is permanently closed, the powers listed here go into effect.

By the rulebook, When Closing is only for the task you need to perform when closing a location -- the rulebook does not state that there can be non-task powers here that take effect when one would want to close the location (whether or not it closes automatically or one is attempting to close). When Permanently Closed also states that the box only contains powers that go into effect when a location is permanently closed -- this could be a spot for such text but the text would need to be worded to actually match the format of powers we are told to run (in the Closing a Location section on p15 -- namely, the powers must start with either "Before closing" or "On closing" -- the rulebook does not state that we apply any other effects from this box).

Given both of those, I therefore feel that if you want to prevent a location from being closed until X condition is met, where X is not a When Closing requirement but overrides it, then it should go into At This Location. That is the only box that is explicitly stated to always be in effect in the rulebook while the location is open. The other two boxes are by definition limited to very specific events and very specific powers within those boxes. Either that, or expand the definition of When Closing to also include powers that apply when one wants to close a location that are not themselves tasks one must perform to close.

I think right now, I'd say this: You only get to worrying about what is in the "When Closing" box when you are actually closing a location.

If the villain is defeated, you look at the When Closing box (per what Vic said about the Abyssal Rift).

For the Rasping Rifts:

If you defeated the villain there, you'd look at "When Closing" and notice you have to check whether there were more cards. If there were more, the location stays open. If there weren't, the location closes.

If you encountered the villain, but he was undefeated, you don't ever bother to look at "When Closing". So you never get to take advantage of the fact that the location is empty while you do the blessing-less blessing deck shuffle. So the location stays open and the villain goes back.

I think right now, I'd say this: You only get to worrying about what is in the "When Closing" box when you are actually closing a location.

If the villain is defeated, you look at the When Closing box (per what Vic said about the Abyssal Rift).

For the Rasping Rifts:

If you defeated the villain there, you'd look at "When Closing" and notice you have to check whether there were more cards. If there were more, the location stays open. If there weren't, the location closes.

If you encountered the villain, but he was undefeated, you don't ever bother to look at "When Closing". So you never get to take advantage of the fact that the location is empty while you do the blessing-less blessing deck shuffle. So the location stays open and the villain goes back.

I like that interpretation a lot, it effectively solves the problem with why beating Deskari lets you close the empty location and why not defeating him does not. And to be clear, I'm fine with When Closing being the canonical place for instructions that should only apply when one wants to close a location, I just ask that it be the only place such instructions are on a location card. As of right now, it seems that some cards use When Closing and some use When Permanently Closed for effects that restrict when/how a location can be closed, and it appears that there isn't actually any distinction between why one is used instead of the other (both are always applied before banishing cards, both are always applied no matter what lets you close, and I can't think of anything else that would distinguish the two). My argument for At This Location was purely based on what the rulebook says in the back as to what When Closing contains -- it mentions tasks that must be performed to close, but it does not say that it can contain any non-task rules. As far as arguments go, it's incredibly pedantic and not all that strong (although the rules lawyer in me would love to see it updated to reflect what cards can actually have on them).

:). Yeah for all this, we know what the answer should be.
I have to have the rules correct as written and make sense.
Then I have defend those to the rest if the rules lawyers in our group.
So thanks for putting up with it all.

We did the same as the original OP proposed it was not a well through out end to the box, and with Mythic paths and Orengafta and Transmogrify Deskari was a pushover sadly. Vics intervention was a few weeks to late for our group but honestly things should be more clear and consistent for the "epic ending" Put text like Whalebone Plick has on him rather than the When Closing lawyered up loop hole of its just a statement not a condition to fulfill. We have gone back to playing S&S while we wait for the Mummy, it has a solid difficulty curve, and we feel its slightly better overall in terms of balance and rules interpretation baring love triangle of course.

You can also use Meliski and have him explore the bottom card of the deck as his first exploration of the turn.

Just as horribly bad. Defeat deskari (or not), location not empty (won't close), deskari escapes to rift, shuffle him in..

Actually we managed to kill Deskari but something fun happened during that scenario so I thought I would tell the tale here.

Started well but run into a Rite of Passage with a corrupted blessing so we had to shuffle the location deck and therefore lost track of Deskari (ouch). BTW, that's why Rite of Passage is a knightmare during that scenario.

Then someone met some henchman (don't remember which), failed the check against, and was instructed to build the Maze and moved there.

Then we had two locations. Actually with a bit of strategy it helped us:

1) Empty Maze but not close it.

2) Keep on exploring the Rifts

3) At some point we met Deskari, win or lose, there is 50% chance he'll end up in the Maze. Scry the Maze to know for sure. If he is not in the Maze, go back to 2).

4) Empty Rifts with no chances to meet Deskari again, meaning you don't have to ensure wining all fights because you don't care anymore about reshuffling the Rifts, meaning you save precious cards for the last fight. Rifts closes.

5) Final battle in the Maze.

4) Empty Rifts with no chances to meet Deskari again, meaning you don't have to ensure wining all fights because you don't care anymore about reshuffling the Rifts, meaning you save precious cards for the last fight. Rifts closes.

How do you empty the rifts without winning every fight? Genuinely curious.

As for saving cards, losing against a monster henchman means you take a bunch of combat damage, and all your cards go bye-bye from that. Losing against a barrier henchman isn't as bad unless it has a nasty if undefeated power, but it still means you waste a turn. You do still have a 30-card blessing deck clock for this scenario after all, and at 3-4 characters that doesn't give you much room for failure. At 5-6 it doesn't give you any room at all, you need to power through multiple explores per turn to ensure a win with that number, and good luck with the inevitable armies...

I can see that strategy working reasonably well for 1-2 characters though.

How do you empty the rifts without winning every fight? Genuinely curious.

....

Ultimately you have to defeat all henchmen, but (sorry my english may not be always clear) what I meant was as long as you have Deskari at the bottom of the Rifts and only one location, you are really fighting to win all fights for fear you would shuffle. Once you get Deskari in the Maze, you can afford to evade (or even lose against if you have only few cards in hand) an henchman in the Rifts for example if you don't have the good cards/character when encountering it. And even if it costs an explore, it may be a much better use of your resources which ultimately wins you many more explores.

Congrats, that's a serious accomplishment!

Nice work! We're still slowly making our way there.. Killed khorram already.