As I said previously, a Weapon 0 will be fine.
Nothing for Quinn then I take it?
Scenario CCT-2C wrap-up:
Raheli - Item 2, Amin, Card feat (Items to 8)
Brielle - Weapon 0, Ishani, power feat (Hand size)
Enora - Spell 1, Amin, Card Feat (Spell)
Koren - Blessing 0, Replayed.
Quinn - Pass, Replayed.
Scenario CCT-2D and Adventure 2 wrap-up:
Upgrade pool:
Weapon - 0
Spell - 2220
Armor - 1
Item - 200
Ally - 1
Blessing - 1100
So many Spell 2s!
Hero Point: banked
Supporter feat: Vencarlo Orisini
Loot interest: yup, interested in Ruan!
Upgrade preferences:
Blessing 0 otherwise
Replay, so no hero point or supporter feat.
No interest in the Loot (no Ally slots)
Upgrade preferences:
Hero Point: Banked
Supporter Feat: Trinia Sabor
Scenario CCT-2D - Raheli Rewards
Hero Point banked
Supporter feat: Vencarlo Orisini
Deck Upgrade:
Hero point banked.
Supporter feat: Keppira d'Bear.
Quinn will tier up.
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I don't feel that the current way of assigning deck upgrades to characters is equitable.
Take the most recent scenario, for example.
Those of us just looking for a single type of upgrade only get to roll once. But somebody who has multiple options they're looking for gets to make multiple rolls. This gives them a significant advantage; they're going to beat out somebody only rolling one die well over 50% of the time.
There's a different fairness issue, too, in a scenario where we can get a bonus deck upgrade. I'd rather not see anybody take a second deck upgrade until everybody has had a chance to take their first upgrade.
Ideally, of course, we wouldn't roll dice at all; we'd discuss it among ourselves, and agree on who is going to take what upgrades. That's typically how our local tables do it in face-to-face games, but that might not be practical in PbP.
If we are going to be rolling dice, though, I'd propose the following approach.
1) We each submit a prioritized list of what upgrades we are looking for.
2) Everybody rolls a single die. The person who rolled the highest number gets to take their highest-priority available upgrade, followed by the person with the second highest number, and so on.
3) If we get a bonus deck upgrade (and there are still upgrades somebody wants left on the table) the people still looking for upgrades repeat step 2.
This may take a little longer, but I think it would be a better approach.
I don't care a ton either way; that sounds fine to me. Raheli only ever wants Items, she'd probably take that as her poriority every single time, but other upgrades are cool too. Everyone got their first choice in this instance, though, right? So we wouldn't have to redo this round of upgrades if switching?
I've also played/seen tables do things like promise future upgrades to a character who has gone several scenarios without their preferred upgrade. Things like "Valeros is skipping on upgrades this round, but gets the next Weapon 5 we acquire".
However the team wants to do upgrades is fine with me, as long as nobody feels too strongly opposed.
Since I'm the only one who rolled more than once, JohnF's messages kind of seem aimed at me, so I'll give my thoughts on the matter. (Sorry for the screwy formatting, it was fine while writing. Guess the forums don't like double spaces.)
I've always thought we were doing a "first choices first" thing. So in the below example:
Upgrades: Weapon Spell Item Ally
Player 1 Player 2 Player 3 Player 4
Weapon 800 Weapon 900 Item 100 Ally 400
Item 200
Ally 500
Even though Player 1 rolled higher than Players 3&4 for the Item and Ally, since they were P3&4's first choices, they would get them regardless of what P1 rolled. (Which also seems to be how it would work in an IRL game; I've never actually played an IRL PACS game with randoms, but I'm pretty sure no-one would say "my first choice is this weapon, but you guys who want the item and the ally, don't take them yet, I'll roll you for them if I don't get the weapon".) It feels to me like JohnF's "only one roll per player" would be worse for people looking for a single type of upgrade; in the above example, with his first "800" roll, that would have allowed Player 1 to get the Item instead of Player 3.
The point of rolling more than once is for possible second/ third/ etc. choice tie-breakers, like below:
Upgrades: Weapon Spell Item Ally
Player 1 Player 2 Player 3 Player 4
Weapon 800 Ally 300 Weapon 900 Ally 400
Item 200 Item 300
Ally 500
At that point, we'd look at Player 1 & 2's rolls for their second choice. Posting them in an initial message in a PBP game simply saves time.
Obviously we also need to account for the "delayed posting" of a PBP game; in this example:
Upgrades: Weapon Spell Item Ally
Player 1 Player 2 Player 3 Player 4
Weapon 800 Weapon 900 Weapon 1000 Ally 400
Item 200 Ally 600
Ally 500 Item 300
Player 2's "actual" second choice would be the Item, since there's no more ally to pick (just like in an IRL game, no one would say "my second choice would have that other card that was already picked in the first round, so I'll skip choosing a card for the actual second round").
Obviously, this also relies on player honesty. Since players don't all choose and write at the same in a PBP game, it would be possible for a less scrupulous player posting later to say: "Well my first choice would be weapon and my second would be spell; I'm not interested in anything else. Now I see Player 1's first pick was weapon and he rolled 1000, so he got that; and Player 2's first pick was also weapon (which P1 is getting), and his second pick spell, for which he rolled 1000, so I wouldn't be getting anything this round. So I'll just say spell is my first pick, that way I get it instead of P2".
And, yes, it's still possible for us to discuss and agree between ourselves for some upgrades; for example, if Gimry says "Enora would really like to have a Spell 3 as soon as possible, I've got an upgrade that would really help me", and everyone agrees, then, great!
Hope this long text made sense!
As for bonus deck upgrades, I'm all for everyone getting a first pick before second picks are handed out.
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My criticism wasn't supposed to be aimed at a person - it was aimed at the process.
It just happened that at this time only one person rolled more than once.
It's very hard to know exactly what your examples were saying - forum posting collapses multiple white-space characters into one.
But consider the following example:
Player 1: Weapon - 600;
Player 2: Weapon - 200; Armor - 800;
Player 3: Armor - 700;
Despite having rolled the highest "first choice" number, player 3 ends up with nothing, because player 2 was allowed to make a second roll.
Under the system I am proposing, Player 2 would have rolled Weapon/Armor 200 (but, unfortunately, would have ended up with nothing)
What I was saying was "first picks first", so you look at everyone's first picks before looking at anyone's second pick. So in your example, Player 3 gets the Armor since it's his first pick. Player 2's "Armor - 800" roll is ONLY used if there's a tiebreaker needed for an Armor in a "second" round.
For the record I have always understood it to be as Shnik describes it as well. The second roll doesn't come into play unless it's a roll-off between people's second choices and it's really just a convenience for this pbp format. It would bog down pretty quickly if we had a situation where multiple people didn't get their first choice and then they had to come back and then roll off on their second choice.
Eg:
Player 1: Weapon - 600;
Player 2: Weapon - 200; Armor - 800;
Player 3: Item - 100; Armor - 700;
PLayer 4: Item - 900
Players 2 and 3 both missed out on their first choice(I am almost always Player 3 in this example :) ).
Now you go to their second choices, which both happen to be armor and Player 2 wins that roll off leaving Player 3 to either pick a leftover boon or forgo upgrades.
Otherwise, if you just put down one roll, players 2 and 3 both have to come back and then roll off for the armor. This format just alleviates that second step. To be fair, every table I've ever been in for pbp usually discusses the upgrades if a player feels something seems out of balance. Eg: If my caster just won the only Spell upgrade last scenario, I'll gladly forgo that upgrade this scenario if it would help someone else. Hopefully, everyone at the table respects everyone else enough to not hog all the upgrades based off random die rolls.
Scenario CCT-2D wrap up.
Raheli - Spell 2, Vencarlo, Bank hero point
Brielle - Item 2, Vencarlo, Bank hero point
Enora - Spell 2, Trinia, Bank hero point
Quinn - Ally 1, Keppira, bank hero point.
Koren - Spell 2, Replayed.
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Ah. I misunderstood what was going on with the rolls.
I had assumed that the three rolls listed were meant as independent attempts (at least partly because the rolls were listed in the order "Weapon, Spell, Armor", which is the standard order of boon types used on locations, character cards, etc.
However, I still feel there is no need for more than one die roll most of the time. A player should specify their priority order for taking boons, and give one die roll. The person with the highest roll takes the best available upgrade according to their priority list, then the player with the second-highest die roll does the same, and so on down the list.
Most of the time there is no need for a second die roll; each player in turn gets to choose their 'best' card from the available pool. The only time a player would not be able to take a card would be when there are no upgrades remaining of any type they have expressed interest in, so rolling another die doesn't help them.
The only time a second die roll would be needed would be if there is a bonus upgrade available. In that case the first upgrade would proceed as normal, using just the first die roll. Then, once everybody has had their chance for an upgrade, the whole process can repeat (but using the order given by every player's second die roll).
That would work with me too, it's just not the "standard" I've seen with PBP before. Would be less typing in a few posts, at the very least. :¬P
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A good part of my confusion came from the fact that there were multiple rolls :-)
As far as I can tell the single-roll method I'm suggesting would produce exactly the same results as how I understand what you call the "standard" method to work.
If you can think of a case where that isn't true please let me know - that would mean I still don't understand exactly how the standard method works.
How I interpret the rolls is exactly how Gimry and Shnik say. I only look at die rolls if there is competition, and only look at second choice options if characters didn't win their first choice. That said, John isn't the first player I've seen question the method of determining upgrades in PBP games.
In IRL and live games, usually the only time rolls factor in to upgrades is when there is competition for a single boon. It also is much easier to determine the difference between how much people want something. For example, there is a major difference in:
"I have several upgrade options, and I slightly prefer X, but would be happy with Y."
vs
"The X is the main upgrade that I want, and I'll take Y or skip upgrades if I don't get X."
...but traditionally in pbp, these both are represented by:
To me, ideally, the rolls provide a decent framework for starting the conversation, and should only come into play as a tie breaker if folks can't compromise. I've seen people roll a d1 to indicate that they would like that particular upgrade, but would defer to anybody else who might want it more, and I think this fits into the former case, but I'm not sure of a good way to allow handling for the latter - other than open conversations.
We can certainly try the "single roll determines who gets to choose first" method to see if that works better for folks, I'll leave that up to you. Again, if anybody feels as though they've been shorted by any of the upgrade procedure so far, please let me know and we will work on a way to rectify.
I'm fine with the Single roll as well for upgrades. Eddiephlashs point on the d1's is something I have used pretty regularly in games. Even so, any of those situations could just be handled in Discord, or in the body of the post.
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@Eddiephlash - can we look a little more closely at the example you gave?
The dice roller showed the two-roll submission as:
Player 1: X upgrade: 1d1000 ⇒ 621
Player 1: Y upgrade: 1d1000 ⇒ 762
So how would this fare if there were two other players, asking for:
Player 2: X upgrade: 1d1000 ⇒ 650
Player 3: Y upgrade: 1d1000 ⇒ 640
It's obvious that Player 2 will get the X upgrade.
But who gets the Y upgrade?
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P3 gets the Y upgrade, since it's his first choice. P1's roll for Y upgrade is only if it hasn't been handed out in the "first pick round", and there are 2+ players who want it in the "second pick round" (which only happens if some players didn't get their first pick).
With the "one-roll" method, it would be possible for people to lose their first choice to someone else's second (or later) choice. If the rolls and choices are as follows: -P1 Roll 30 Pick A, Pick C; -P2 Roll 20 Pick A, Pick B; -P3 Roll 10 Pick B; then P2 would get his second choice, Pick B, even though it's P3's first choice.
Scenario CCT-3A wrap-up:
Upgrade pool:
Weapon - 3
Spell - 31
Armor - 3
Item - 32
So are we doing the "single roll" thing for upgrades?
1) Replay for Koren
2) Upgrade Preferences:
-
Scenario CCT-3A - Raheli Rewards
Tier 3, XP 1
Role Card: Night-Haired Witch
Power Feat (from Role Card): For your combat check, you may recharge a card to use your Dexterity skill + 1d8 ([X] 2d8) and add the Magic trait and the Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing trait.
@Shnik: assuming so.
@Gimry, is Enora best served by upgrading Spell? If so, Raheli will go:
Item>Spell
Blackjack Feat: [X] Gain the skills Acrobatics: Dexterity +3, Stealth: Dexterity +3, and Diplomacy: Charisma +3.
Quinn can make use of most upgrades (although probably not Spell this time - he'd need to take a card feat to get that, and he's probably going to take a power feat to increase his hand size).
His #1 choice would definitely be Weapon 3, but he could make good use of either Item 3 or Ally 3 should one be available.
As always, though, he's prepared to yield choices if somebody else has an upgrade that would serve the party better.
His weapon choice increases his main weapon die size by two, and adds a +1 to the roll - effectively a +2.
His Item option would be either Wayfinder (to replace Compass) or Pole (allows him to assist checks against some distant barriers).
If nobody else wants it, I would like to take the Item 2 so that Raheli can take the Spell 3.
I'm going to spend my Hero Point on an Item Card Feat and take the Binder's Tome to fill the spot.
Hero Point: Power Feat
Taking Kneecapper Role
Feat: When you attempt a check before you act, you may use your Melee skill instead of any listed skill.
Blackjack Feat:
When you would recharge, shuffle, discard, or bury a boon for your character or role power, you may reload a Blackjack card instead.
Upgrade order:
Weapon 3
Item 3
If Quinn believes a Weapon 3 would be his best bet, I'm willing to take the Item 3, though. So upgrades would be:
Raheli: Spell 3
Brielle: Item 3
Enora: Item 2
Quinn: Weapon 3
Koren: Armor 3
Does that work for everyone?
Brielle had also banished her Blessing of the Samurai 2 during the last scenario, which she'll replace with a Blessing of Cayden Cailean.
Scenario CCT-3A wrap up.
Raheli - Spell 3, Power feat: extra d8 on combat (Night-Haired Witch role), BJ: Acro, Stealth, and Diplomacy skills
Brielle - Item 3, Power feat: Use Melee for BYA checks (Kneecapper role), BJ: Reload a BJ card for character powers
Enora - Item 2, Card Feat: Items
Quinn - Weapon 3, Power feat: Hand size (pre-role?)
Koren - Armor 3, Replayed.
Nope - I rethought that.
Power Feat (from the Empiricist Role):
([] You may recharge a card to ignore powers that would happen when you examine it)
Blackjack feat:
[] When you would recharge, shuffle, discard, or bury a boon for your character or role power, you may reload a Blackjack boon instead
I had been a little confused about how the hand size worked, and thought that if I wanted to use it while playing Blackjack I had to take it on the character card before choosing a role. I missed the sentence that says if you take a feat on your role card that is also on your character card you mark it in both places (so I would get it whether or not I was playing Blackjack)
Scenario CCT-1A wrap-up:
Upgrade pool:
Weapon - 33222
Spell - 3311
Armor - 1
Item - 3222
Ally - 332222
Blessing - 330
That is certainly one of the better loot pools I've seen
Hero point spent on Skill Feat: Charisma +1
Not interested in Salvator, I know others can make better use of him.
Upgrades:
Preferred order:
Blessing 3
Ally 3
Weapon 3
Replay for Koren.
No interest in loot.
Upgrade:
Also interested in Weapon 3 and Spell 3.
Hero point spent on Skill Feat: Dexterity +3
Deck upgrade: Item 3, and if not, Item 2.
Not particularly interested in Loot Ally.
Hero Point spent on Skill Feat Charisma.
I am interested in the Loot Ally.
Not interested in the loot at the moment.
Quinn will let everyone else pick first.
He could use a Blessing, (Armor,) Item or Ally 3, so there's bound to be a level 3 upgrade left for him.
Scenario CCT-3B wrap up.
Upgrade order: Brielle, Enora, Raheli, Koren, Quinn
Raheli - Item 3, Skill feat: Dex
Brielle - Blessing 3, Skill feat: Cha
Enora - Spell 3, Skill Feat: Cha
Quinn - TBD, Power feat: Hand size (pre-role?)
Koren - Blessing 3, Replayed.
Remaining upgrades:
Weapon - 33222
Spell - 311
Armor - 1
Item - 222
Ally - 332222
Blessing - 0
Quinn will take an Ally 3.
He took a Power Feat last scenario; I'm still undecided about what feat to take this time.
Scenario CCT-1A wrap-up:
Upgrade pool:
Weapon - 2
Spell - 3
Armor - 2
Item - 33222
Ally - 3211
Blessing - 10
1) This is a replay (). After this, it's all new to Koren!
2) Should double check to make sure Koren has right number of supporter feats.
3) Upgrade Preferences:
Hero Point spent on Card Feat: Item +1
Supporter feat: Trinia Sabor
Upgrade order:
Ally 3
Ally 2
There's an additional two Blessing 1s available if anybody is interested...
Scenario 3C: Raheli Rewards
Hero point spent on Card Feat: Item [X]9
Supporter feat: Trinia Sabor
Deck upgrade preferences: Item 3, then Item 2
Power Feat: "When another character fails to acquire a spell that has the Arcane trait or an item that has the Book trait, you may recharge a card to encounter it." on the Bookworm Role Card.
Can I just say that Class Deck Enora has two amazing Roles. I actually need to play her again as the White Mage role because that looks equally as awesome.
I'll take the Supporter Feat on Thousand Bones to make up for the fact I didn't take the White Mage Role ;)
I'm a simple Arcanist Bookworm. I want the Spell 3.
I have 2 Hero Points Remaining.