Flame Oracle - Flying Class Ability - Hover Feat

Hello,

I'm fairly new to Pathfinder, this is the first campaign I've played in. I'm a Kitsune Flame Oracle at level 4 and planning what I want as my character specializes through levels.

At level 7, I can get Wings of Fire:
Wings of Fire (Su): As a swift action, you can manifest a pair of fiery wings that grant you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can use these wings for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1 minute increments. You must be at least 7th level before selecting this revelation.

Now this kind of makes me wonder why Fly is not a class skill for flame oracle, my rl friend swears up and down that due to the fact I don't have this fly speed for 24 hours a day that it does not count as a class skill for me, and for the same reason I would not qualify on the feat below.

At which time I was also considering getting, Hover feat, since this ability would grant flight speed:
Hover

This creature can hover in place with ease and can kick up clouds of dust and debris.

Prerequisite: Fly speed.

Benefit: A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check.

If a creature of size Large or larger with this feat hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. The winds generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of non-magical origin. Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).

Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering.

Opinions? Are these rules true/false? If you can link rules supporting your claims, that would be deeply appreciated as I do wish to follow the rules, just the rules are very fuzzy in my opinion.

Once you gain it as a class feature, you can take the feat.

I'm glad you think so, I'd like to have it, but can you be a little more specific on rules that would allow me to?

My friend keeps on comparing the fact that warriors cant pick up feats when they rage to get into prereqs for Strength.

Apples to Oranges if you ask me, but still, your reasoning?

Are you considered to have a fly speed for purpose of qualifying prerequisites (class skills, feats, prestige classes, girlfriends, etc.) if you are not capable of flying permanently (aka, the 24 hour rule)?

Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill.

When you use your wings you get a fly speed so you get it as a class skill. (You don't have a natural fly speed so you don't get/take bonuses/penalties to Fly checks from your manoeuvrability, that's why it's average +0)

You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).

You can also only put points in it when you have the ability to fly daily (ie. have Wings of Fire).

If you levelled up and could take a feat while you had the ability active you could take Hover since you would have a fly speed and qualify for it. Obviously, you wouldn't be able to use it without Wings of Fire active but without a fly speed you couldn't use it anyway so that's hardly an issue.

Looking at the fly skill rules I would just ask your GM to give it to you otherwise you're going to have to have a discussion about how hovering actually works (when you make the check, what happens if you fail), or you could just 5ft step in the air every turn for a dc10 check instead of the dc15 check for hover.

Are you considered to have a fly speed for purpose of qualifying prerequisites (class skills, feats, prestige classes, girlfriends, etc.) if you are not capable of flying permanently (aka, the 24 hour rule)?

really, the best way to look at is is right there in the fly skill description:

You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability)."

You have a means of reliably flying daily after you hit level 7, and starting then you can "train" your flight manevours.

With the Feat, yes. Same as with Magic items that increase ability scores and count as "permanent" bonus after 24 hours, thus allowing you to qualify for feats.
So yeah, the fighters also get their "way around" it. Of course, you lose the access to the feats if your ability score goes below requirement, so if you take off the item you lose your feats.

Same with flying, of course you can only do this Hovering while you ARE flying(for the CL minutes per day).
But the bonus you'd get from this feat is so miniscule that i'm wondering why your friend is so opposed to it.

Even if you enlarge yourself and keep the "debris" part(which, incidently, needs an area with "lots of loose debris") it's still not gamebreaking in any way.

Thanks for your responses, what about the class ability thing?

My friend keeps telling me it's balony for my character to have Fly as a class skill every time she uses an ability like a toggle for temporary flying!

Frankly though.. it makes a lot more sense than Time Oracle having Fly... but yeah what's your opinion on that?

No due to the fact it requires Fly Speed as well?
---

Also, as for why the discussion, no it may not be game breaking or anything, just yes I'd actually like to follow the rules, as a new player. Not just do whatever I want just cause.. *Giggle* Yeah look at that, I feel like doing that cause I want to and I said so!

Thanks for your responses, what about the class ability thing?

My friend keeps telling me it's balony for my character to have Fly as a class skill every time she uses an ability like a toggle for temporary flying!

Frankly though.. it makes a lot more sense than Time Oracle having Fly... but yeah what's your opinion on that?

No due to the fact it requires Fly Speed as well?
---

Also, as for why the discussion, no it may not be game breaking or anything, just yes I'd actually like to follow the rules, as a new player. Not just do whatever I want just cause.. *Giggle* Yeah look at that, I feel like doing that cause I want to and I said so!

It's not about you trying to break something here. It's a stylish idea and sweet.

I more mentioned that in a way of wondering as to why your GM seems so opposed to it.
I actually encourage my players to take some suboptimal choices to breath life into their characters.
If they optimize everything, they'll just end up against optimized enemies, too, when things get hot.

Aside from that: No, i do NOT believe you get it as class skill every single time you get a fly speed.
If you have a NATURAL fly speed you automatically have it as class skill.
Also, a number of playable classes get it as a class skill(e.g. wizards, sorcerers, etc...)

If the intent was to AUTOMATICALLY make it a class skill every single time you get a fly speed(which is the ONLY time it makes sense to use the "fly skill") then it would make no sense to give it selectively to a number of classes but not others.
Something like Craft is called out for ALL classes.
Profession is called out for ALL except barbarian.
Fly is selective, so in that case i agree that the "automatic" treatment of it depends on either a natural fly speed or an "at will" fly ability.

Feats dependent on it are fair game however.

As for the Barbarian example of your friend: I sure would allow a Raging Barbarian to take Feats dependent on his Rage-Stats. Of course, he could only use them while Raging and that would be homebrew.

But technically no different if the Barbarian would borrow the Fighters +6 Strenght Item for 24 hours, making him qualify for a Feat, selecting it, then giving the Item back(losing strenght and thus, the Feat)...and then whenever he rages, he'd have the strenght again and thus regain access to the Feat.
That above scenario is perfectly valid by RAW since Pathfinder "Ability increases" count as permanent after 24 hours and thus allow Feat Qualification.

By raw, he needs to have a fly speed 24 hrs a day to take hover. When your character levels for the most part its in a no buff vaccum.

He can take the fly skill np though.

If the intent was to AUTOMATICALLY make it a class skill

Fly Speed

Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill.

It's right there in the skill description. As for natural vs non-natural flight...

"

A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability:

Natural flight just enables you to receive a bonus from your manoeuvrability.

In general, if PC with some short term means of fly (which is most of the ways fly is ever used by PC) did not qualify for the fly skill. Then it would be an entirely NPC skill which is not the case.

But as i said in my previous post, he still doesnt qualify for hover

he's got a fly speed, that seems to meet the prerequisite. i think its up to his gm.

his other option: get his fly skill up so high he can take 1 on the check and never fail.
the DC to Hover is 15.
if he puts 4 skill ranks in fly at 7th level when he gains the revelation, he'd have a base fly skill of +7, if he's got a good dex , by 10th level he should be able to Hover on command.
if he wants he can sink his 7th level feat into skill focus: fly. if he's got an 18 dex , then he'll have a +14 and can never fail to hover unless there's a penalty on the check.

if he's already planning to take the Feat to Hover, using it for Skill Focus isn't a bad fallback plan.

MordredofFairy wrote:

If the intent was to AUTOMATICALLY make it a class skill

Fly Skill wrote:

Fly Speed

Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill.

It's right there in the skill description. As for natural vs non-natural flight...

"

"The very next sentence of fly"[/quote wrote:

A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability:

Natural flight just enables you to receive a bonus from your manoeuvrability.

He does not have a permanent fly speed.

As said, the only time you DO make fly checks is when you have a fly speed.

By your logic, everybody and everything that flys even for the first time in their live will treat it as something natural and get a class skill bonus.

That, in addition to the fact that as said it's specifically called out as a class skill for SOME PC Classes but not for others(which would utterly not make sense in your logic), makes it pretty clear to me that you need a fly speed as a natural movement mode for this to apply.

You are trying to break this by "RAW", no matter if it doesn't make any sense at all.
Looking at how things are set up, and looking at what would make sense, it's pretty clear what RAI would deliver.

The same section in movement modes:

Fly

Creatures with a fly speed receive the Fly skill for free as a class skill.

Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:

does not specifically call out "natural" fly speed for manevourability, it's assumed both is true only for natural fly speeds.

but you are right in that they should probably errata it to lock out discussion from RAW-minmaxers.

Hello,

I'm fairly new to Pathfinder, this is the first campaign I've played in. I'm a Kitsune Flame Oracle at level 4 and planning what I want as my character specializes through levels.

At level 7, I can get Wings of Fire:
Wings of Fire (Su): As a swift action, you can manifest a pair of fiery wings that grant you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can use these wings for 1 minute per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1 minute increments. You must be at least 7th level before selecting this revelation.

Now this kind of makes me wonder why Fly is not a class skill for flame oracle, my rl friend swears up and down that due to the fact I don't have this fly speed for 24 hours a day that it does not count as a class skill for me, and for the same reason I would not qualify on the feat below.

At which time I was also considering getting, Hover feat, since this ability would grant flight speed:
Hover

This creature can hover in place with ease and can kick up clouds of dust and debris.

Prerequisite: Fly speed.

Benefit: A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check.

If a creature of size Large or larger with this feat hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. The winds generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of non-magical origin. Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).

Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering.

Opinions? Are these rules true/false? If you can...

Your friends just wrong, this is not a video game, plenty of classes get fly BEFORE they can fly:

So basically he can say whatever but the designers (practically all) disagree.

Its no issue really ANYONE can buy ranks in fly at normal rate (you just don't get the +3 bonus). If you REALLY want that +3 bonus there is always the trait:

Wisdom in the Flesh (LN): Your hours of meditation on inner perfection and the nature of strength and speed allows you to focus your thoughts to achieve things your body might not normally be able to do on its own. Select any Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity-based skill. You make checks with that skill using your Wisdom modifier instead of the skill's normal ability score. That skill is always a class skill for you.

There is a feat that lets you choose traits after character gen if your DM won't let you swap it out to avoid a nervous breakdown.

Though frankly not sure if iori supports the whole flame oracle gig!

PS flying fire elementals look so cool you're bound to attract the jealousy of haters!!

Nevermind fire wings, just googling 'fire wings'has cool images!

which seems more logical, that only some classes that eventually get spells to fly, get flight as a class skill, and this was overlooked for the class skills flame oracles get, or that flame oracles specifically aren't supposed to ever get fly as a class skill?

from the core book: druids, wizards and sorcerers get it from level 1, even though they don't get fly spells till 5th or 6th level.

so hey when flame oracle gets his first set of wings, or his first flying broom, he can start putting ranks into it. but it should also be a class skill for him if he takes the wings of flame revelation because he's flying under his own power. he's not just a fighter consuming a fly potion for the first time.

he's got a fly speed, that seems to meet the prerequisite. i think its up to his gm.

his other option: get his fly skill up so high he can take 1 on the check and never fail.
the DC to Hover is 15.
if he puts 4 skill ranks in fly at 7th level when he gains the revelation, he'd have a base fly skill of +7, if he's got a good dex , by 10th level he should be able to Hover on command.
if he wants he can sink his 7th level feat into skill focus: fly. if he's got an 18 dex , then he'll have a +14 and can never fail to hover unless there's a penalty on the check.

if he's already planning to take the Feat to Hover, using it for Skill Focus isn't a bad fallback plan.

Temporary bonuses dont allow you to qualify for feats. He has a fly speed some of the time. A barbarion or druid that can get claws some of the time cannot get weapon focus for tge same reason.

Learning the fly skill doesnt have the same requirements and can start as soon as you have any means to fly,

you can take weapon focus in whatever you want, you don't need access to them forever to take that feat. weapon focus only requires proficiency in the weapon to take it as a feat. all creatures are proficient in their natural attacks, and all druids/shifters are proficient in the attacks of creatures they turn into.

likewise if you've got a fly speed, and can put ranks into fly, you can take flight dependent feats.

its not like a temporary bonus to strength, to qualify you for power attack.
flight is not a "temporary bonus" , its a temporary mode of movement.

you're over thinking the temporary bonus rule.

My weapon focus answer comes in two forms, first mechanical. The reason you can mechanically take weapon focus all the time is because you always have proficiency in the weapon. However from th3e view of a roleplaying game its a bit silly to get better with a weapon you cant practice with.

Anyhow this is exactly like trying to use bull strength to qualify for power attack. It doesnt work because the general thing is when you level your char it is done in a vaccume with no temporary buffs. Which prevents him from taking hover.

For th3 record though hover is a bit of a waste of a feat when his fly skill gets up its an easy check to make.

but its totally different from power attack. you're not relying on a static ability score and trying to reach that with a temporary bonus to an existing score.

you're gaining a method of movement for a small time per day. that new mode of movement already allows you to put ranks in a skill you couldn't take before. why does that also not allow you to take a feat that you couldn't before.
yes, in terms of training, you can only practice for a few minutes per day, but that's irrelevant for allocating skill points. so why does it matter when taking the feat?

don't think of temporary bonus as a temporary form of movement. you're applying temporary bonuses to ability scores, to limited modes of flight that already qualify for learning skill ranks in fly.

he's got a form of flight. if he wants to take Hover so he can have a crappy fly check and not need to keep rolling to stay hovering, let him. his alternative is skill focus (fly) which by 10th level can be +6 and he'll never really need to make checks anyway.

Oh don't get me wrong I don't see an issue with him taking it. Its a bit retarded he is being prevented from taking the fly skill. I think hover is normally a waste of a feat. However if he's being told he can't take the fly skill (effextively making it an npc only skill despite being on numerous skill lists) then hover is the only solution to give him basic functionality. But hover and skill focus fly is still two more feats than he should have to spend.

In general though (rather than his specific situation) the whole temporarily qualifying for a feat thing isn't well defined in the rules. The attribute stuff is all we have to go with.

There's nothing in RAW prohibiting you from taking ranks in Fly. You have a reliable means of flight every day, so that's all it takes.

However, it does not list Fly as a class skill, so whether you actually get it as a class skill goes back to the same "temporary versus permanent" debate--does having a temporary Fly speed give you Fly as a class skill? It's come up before with no resolution.

shall we make a separate thread , to consolidate the question to what we know now?
or has there already been a faq targetted thread on it?

"does having a temporary Fly speed from a class ability or spell, give you Fly as a class skill?"

wizards, sorcerers, and druids have it as a class skill, and can cast fly at 5th or 6th level, or wild shape into a bird at 4th level. An oracle of flame can take the revelation at 7th level, but fly is not on their list of class skills, nor bonus class skills.

the fly skill says that :
Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill.
and
You cannot take ranks in this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other special ability).

are there any other classes that fly but are missing the Fly skill?

the revelation says pretty clearly it gives you a fly speed. and the fly skill says that creatures with a fly speed treat fly as a class skill. no stipulation there on duration. if they'd wanted to they could have restricted that like they do with putting ranks in the skill.

which seems more logical, that only some classes that eventually get spells to fly, get flight as a class skill, and this was overlooked for the class skills flame oracles get, or that flame oracles specifically aren't supposed to ever get fly as a class skill?

I believe that saying "Maybe Flame Oracle is mis-designed, by reasonable measures it SHOULD get Fly as a bonus Class Skill on the same basis that Wizard/Sorceror get it, etc." is quite different from pushing an interpretation that Flame Oracles DO benefit from Fly as Class Skill based on the current RAW. Of note, other characters that have some means of flight also miss out on the Class Skill, e.g. Clerics with appropriate Domains.

Ultimately, getting the Class Skill bonus isn't that big of a deal, nothing is stopping you from putting full Ranks into it, and that is more relevant than a +3 bonus in the end... and it is utterly clear that Flying Flame Oracles qualify to put Ranks into the Fly skill.

Honestly, I would not ever bother to take the Hover Feat, the Hover DC isn't that high (15) and you don't even need to make a Hover check if you just take a 5' step (anywhere in 3d), you just make the "Move Less than Half Speed" DC 10 check. I would say you're better off taking Skill Focus: Fly (which has no special pre-reqs, you can even take it without qualifying to put Ranks into Fly) which boosts your Fly check for ALL usages (including Hover checks): With a +6 bonus from Skill Focus (with 10 ranks) Hover is now easier than "Move Less than Half Speed" is for people without Skill Focus.

The situations you really should worry about as a (temporary) natural flyer are not Hovering in still air, but dealing with high wind speeds and mid-air collisions... The Hover Feat does practically nothing for any of those scenarios (you don't need to make a check to Hover in high winds, but you don't get anything to help you actually move anywhere in those winds, or prevent you from being "Blown Away", or deal with mid-air Collisions).

And a reminder: Once you qualify to put Ranks into Fly, only the total ranks in the skill are limited (to your total character level), so if you gain 4 skill ranks per level you can put all of the into Fly until you hit the "total character level" limit... i.e. you aren't limited to adding just 1 skill rank per level gained, meaning you can "catch up" and quickly get your Fly skill maxed out if you wish.

help fix the Flame Oracle Fly skill

Link FAQ'd.