Thron's Altered Kingmaker

Game Master Litejedi

Dotting for great justice!

hi2u

Okay here is some data for you guys to use in brainstorming characters.

1) You will ALL be in charge of your own section of the Stolen Lands. Each of you carving out your own section for your specific Houses. So when a Kingdom Turn comes around you each have your own little area to build up and play in. How will this work? I’m glad I asked! There will be 5 distinct city seats dedicated to the group, to be chosen by the players, to get their lands going. The first chunk of time dedicated to the game will be Kingdom Turns to get the “settled” portion of the game caught up to where the story is. I expect each House to organically develop its own unique feel, like Game of Thrones/Brevoy.

2) Speaking of that, where are we in the story? A small bit of time before Book 3! That’s right. The party will be starting at Level 7 and will level up incrementally as I decide, not based on tracking XP values. To help you each flesh out your own Houses, the Leadership Feat (*GASP*) will be REQUIRED to be taken by each PC as their Level 7 Feat! What nonsense does this mean!?!? No, you will not be traveling with a cohort. But the cohort and your other followers should be used to fill Leadership Roles in your own lands. When it comes time to adventure and explore, you will be entrusting your Lands to the care of these individuals.

3) I will be using some of the Downtime Rules for things like building personal buildings and hiring teams. If this interests you, feel free to inquire further.

Okay, here are the crunchy bits:

Starting Level - 7
Ability Scores - 15 Point Buy (yes, low compared to many games...)
Wealth - 23,500 gp. No more than 8,000 gp in any 1 item.
Traits - 2 traits, 1 of which must be a campaign trait. 1 Drawback allowed for a 3rd Trait.
Races - Core, anything more exotic needs confirmed by me.
Classes - No to Gunslinger, Basic Summoner, and Occult Material. This is my personal preference.
Background Skills are in effect
Character Image - I personally like a reference image included with submissions. It helps to visualize characters in my head, and I use them for tokens on the map. Maybe we can talk a certain someone into continuing their creative streak...*snicker*
Maps - I will be handling maps using Roll20.

On the topic of your characters...I am going to be allowing any alignment to you guys, so long as you can and will work together as a team when adventuring. The overall story assumes you guys are a cohesive unit. However, it would obviously be hypocritical of me to say you can't have conflict between one another. In fact, it's almost expected in some ways since you guys will be quickly eating up the map and having to start negotiating or confronting one another for who claims which sections! But, as Esrisi and Veltariel have done in the Shattered Star game, I want and expect any PC conflicts with one another to be planned out, discussed, and agreed upon by the parties involved (myself as DM included) so as to make sure that nothing goes too far and that group cohesiveness is maintained.

Does that mean you guys will always have to settle territory disputes peacefully? No! You guys may have situations where two of you try and claim the same hex simultaneously in the same turn. Do your scouting parties try and report back to you for orders? Will they instead lash out aggressively to drive off those trying to claim their ruler's lands? We will just have to see...

Basically, as opposed to the basic Kingmaker, which lets one (or two, at best) players be Ruler...I'm going to let everyone be a ruler of their own lands. Eventually, alliances (beyond those of the PC's being a unified adventuring party) should develop and result in someone being deemed the equivalent of "Sitting on the Iron Throne" from GoT, and will be the Duke/Duchess to everyone elses Baron/Baroness, eventually growing to be the King/Queen to the others Duke/Duchess.

It will be RP heavy, and will count on proactive roleplay instigation from each of you. I will drop in tidbits here and there to move things along if things become stale, but ultimately I will mostly play the parts of your cohorts and other NPC's.

Moreover, I would prefer this be an open discussion about your expectations and concerns rather than me stand here on a pedestal and tell y'all "This is how it's gonna be, gosh darnit!" So now that I've given you an idea of how I'd like to run things and what I'm expecting in regards to player crunch, I'll step down from the podium and let you guys toss in your questions or suggestions.

Let the discussion begin!

Dotting in.

So one question I have, if we are supposed to be a cohesive team would it be worth slugging through the first two books instead of skipping them? I know the first book (kind of) but not sure what all went down in the second, but I've played through the CRPG. Don't know how you would feel about starting out earlier in the process but I think it would add a lot more depth to the characters and stories, even if we fast tracked it (ie skip a lot of the hex exploration aspect and just have us go from one major event to the next or something similar)

If not, maybe you can provide a highlight of the key stuff we would have gone through so that we can work that into our characters backgrounds and figure out, how as a team, we would have dealt with it.

Good Morning, Sapher here, I've only played the video game, so how close is it to the paper adventure?

I need to read about the actual kingdom rules. If we do jump to seven I like the idea Dak is suggesting, maybe roleplay a few key points. If it is close to the game, potentially the very beginning when we are put together, attacking the stag lord base, etc. We wouldn't spend time going through everything, but enough to have history together.

I am excited!

Another thought occurred to me, with the kingdom building aspect, if I'm not mistaken that can be a bit of bookkeeping. Since not everyone enjoys that it may be worth forming groups of kingdoms, at least pairing a bookkeeper with someone who doesn't enjoy bookkeeping. Just a thought in case it helps since, from what I have seen, that is one area where things can get bogged down in normal Kingmaker games.

Same! Are we concerned about either a) charisma or b) other potential penalties associated with calculating the leadership score or will the cohort/followers info be at a fixed level regardless of the modifiers?

Also, I went ahead and created a separate channel in my Discord server if anyone needs/wants to chat there. People who are already part of the Shattered Star group have already been given permission. Anyone else, if you want to join HERE is the link to join.

Hello all! Excited for a chance at this!

As a reminder, I am familiar with most of the classic Kingmaker AP. I've played it into very high levels, I think around 15-17. However I'm not sure how much that will matter in this significantly altered version.

1) So is the beginning going to be like a game of Catan or Risk, where we pick lands to start out on? How much detail on the map are we aware of before making a decision, such as natural resources, local threats, etc?

2) I have significant knowledge of the plot up to high levels (around 15-17), although I don't know how far into the books that was. I am good at keeping player/character knowledge separate. For leadership being required, it sounds like it is taking up our 7th level feat and we don't get it as a bonus feat, correct? How strict are you on the math in the leadership feat, such as calculating cohort level and number of followers? I've seen some GMs play it by the book and others handwave it as fluff.

3) I believe downtime rules will be very significant in this kind of game. How will they interact with our leadership responsibilities, time-wise? Will crafting be allowed?

I don't have any character inspiration yet, I will continue to brainstorm.

Alright I have got a wild idea.

I am thinking an antipaladin (fearmonger, tyrant) that is all about ruling with fear. I want to focus on making a character that will be thematically interesting in the setting, but also won't be a slouch in combat (if Sveng is teaching me anything). I may dip rogue and grab the rake or thug archetype, and may even prestige into sanguine angel.

I'm a huge fan of Game of Thrones and have been loving all the power struggles with tyrants (even if this season is a mess) and would love to try my hand at some darker roads. However, I need to pass this by the others first (especially the GM): Is this kind of character something you think you could have fun playing with? I know alignment is open, and this would definitely be a lawful evil tyrant type (CE would be bad, and also wouldn't make sense).

Let me know your thoughts, and I'm always open to feedback and criticism.

Hehe, a similar thought actually also came to my mind as well, so I don't have a problem with it. I've been wanting to run through the CRPG with a LE character so funny you were thinking of it here. The big thing I think, assuming the GM is ok with it, we would just need to work out the group dynamics so that it made sense we all worked / continue to work with each other.

I don't have a specific character concept in mind just yet, though I have a few ideas floating around that I am trying to decide on. Currently leaning toward either a racial focused town (ie all dwarves or elves or something) or a religious focused town, what I decide from there would narrow down my character build.

For now I am wanting my character to play well with the others (they did search and claim these lands together after all) but as time develops...who knows, perhaps she may turn down the conquering warlord route, or perhaps her worst instincts can be curbed? I don't know myself yet :)

Dak - If you guys would prefer to hammer out the first two books on a sort of fast forward mode, I am okay with that. But you'll all need to remember in designing your characters personalities that they aren't very influential yet, and for a while will be taking orders from others (IE, the Swordlords). This section would focus more on RP and growing relationships with one another than actual combat, though I would let you guys slug through a few of the more important combat situations.

John - Some of it will be very similar, but I plan to weave plot elements from backgrounds into the game too, to keep things lively. Also may throw a custom wrinkle in here and there.

Dak - If anyone is uncomfortable handling the book keeping elements, I am fine with someone else handling it for them if they are fine with it.

LiteJedi - Regarding the (seemingly eventual) Leadership scores, yes, your scores will have an impact on your followers. So you need to be concerned with how the world at large views you, so you can actually build a following. Also, I don't like the way Leadership claims "Followers don't level" and instead you just suddenly gain new higher level ones. Instead, your higher level followers you earn will be the ones who have been with you the longest.

Regarding Discord - I highly recommend everyone pop in there to the link Dak made, for both this game AND our Shattered Star game. It's a good spot to communicate with one another and plan out stuff.

CampinCarl - 1) Seems like we won't be starting at level 7, so the detail you have of the map will come entirely from your own scouting of the area.

2) Leadership is not a bonus feat, no. It will be everyone's Level 7 feat. Regarding it's scoring, it will be purely based on Level + Charisma + any traits/abilities you may have that bolster it. Some of the written in inherent bonuses will take effect over time, but when you feel you have earned it, make a post to me in Discussion thread here asking something like "Hey Thron, so I've got my town up and running, and have had it for like a turn. Do I qualify for having a Base of Operations yet?" and I'll weigh in on it.

3) Ah...Downtime Rules...*maniacal grin* In all seriousness, I am a huge fan of using Downtime Rules for adding fluff and realism to a character, not for bolstering their power to unreasonable heights. So, here is how I use them...

Building Teams/Buildings/Businesses - You can use Downtime Rules to build businesses and hire teams as employees, and use their earnings to fund your LIVING EXPENSES or place the gold earned into a pool to fund FURTHER DOWNTIME BUILDING only! For example, I have a high level wizard in another campaign that I used the Downtime Rules to build up a few businesses (a Magic Shop, a Tavern, a stake in the city docks, and a mercenary Ulfen squad). I use their earnings to fund my Extravagant Lifestyle, and nothing else. In-game, I use them as plot hooks, places to role play, and NPC's to interact with of my own design so that if I have time and a moment of creative inspiration, I can go post a little scene of what I'm up to with my employees.

In another game (a Kingmaker one), my character (one of the Rulers) has hired Teams to act as a House Guard at our castle, as well as we've recently used them to build up a traveling caravan of guards, who basically will just serve as our base camp and it's "defense" while we explore. We won't be taking them into dungeons with us, and they won't be earning us coin. But it fits thematically and will give us a bit more stuff to RP with.

As to Crafting Items, yes you can take item creation feats! The rules for Kingdom Building take up a month of time, during which only I believe 1 week has to be dedicated to focused work from the Leader. So you have 3 weeks of time each Kingdom Turn to do whatever!

And Finally...

CampinCarl/Dak - Yes! I am fine with wide range of alignments, but as I have said and you guys are obviously being cautious of...your characters will NEED to, at the very least, be able to work with one another to advance the campaign. I am all for a bit of tense role play and some inter-player conflict, as long as it is in good spirits (not malicious, but simply a story device just like Veltariel/Esrisi) and doesn't result in someone trying to bulldoze the others good time. I don't want to see, for example, Antipaladin A go on a war of conquest against Druid Player B and try to wipe out their lands and claim them as their own. Instead, I'd rather see something like this play out...

Drask: "So...Sapher. I kinda want to claim this hex here you also are eyeballing this turn. Any chance we could work something out?"

Sapher: "Eeee...I dunno. I really want that hex too."

Drask: "Okay...how about we roll for it?"

Sapher: "Sure. Thron, would the loser not get to claim a hex this turn, then?"

Thron: "Naw, that'd be b$@!@!*@. You'd just have to claim a different hex."

Sapher: "Okay, cool. Roll d20, highest wins?"

Drask: "Sure!"

Drask Roll: 1d20 ⇒ 14
Sapher Roll: 1d20 ⇒ 6

Sapher: "Crap."

Drask: "Nice!"

Thron: "So...how does that develop in game?"

Drask: "How about my soldiers ran into your outriders and after a brief skirmish, your men had to retreat?"

Sapher: "That could work, though it'll make for a tense meet up when we go to deal with the Orcs after this Kingdom Turn..."

Drask: "I wouldn't expect anything less."

Esrisi: "WHERE IS MY HAIR!?!?"

Also...

Here is the Roll20 Link I will be using for maps, including the Kingdom Map.

I have most of it shadowed out, but back when I ran this for my table group, I took the maps from each book and managed to put them all together into one seamless hex map. Made for managing the growing kingdom much easier, and I am looking forward to revealing it bit by bit to you guys here! Heh.

Another thing I want to add to this:

If at any point, a player decides they don't want to deal with the Kingdom stuff, they are more than welcome to "Bend the Knee" to another player! At which time, the player they swear fealty to could annex the other players holdings using the rules for doing so.

Another potential roleplay point that could impact the kingdom stuff would be romance/arranged marriage. If two characters decided they were in love and wanted to wed, or even if they just decided to get married for purely political reasons, they could merge their holdings into one and rule them jointly as Dual Rulers!

There are plenty of other options to consider for spicing up the Kingdom side of things from a RP perspective, and if at any time you guys have an idea, I am open to hearing them out!

I don't have time to read any of this for now but I'm checking in!

I would also be on board with a fast-tracked version of the first few books. Can definitely get bogged down with all the exploration and travel.

Alright, and our cohorts don't travel with us, correct? Will we be able to design them ourselves or will we be acquiring them from the AP?

Mhmm, plus significant downtime. Perhaps it is a good thing I am choosing not to play an arcane caster, because I may get quite out of control if I did so. I'm definitely having to beat down my inner power gamer with a broomstick and focus on roleplaying, some themes and narratives I want to explore.

Hmm, as I look more into things perhaps I may consider the blighted myrmidon archetype as well. Smite good would likely not be useful most of the time, plus having a hatred of wildlife may be interested. Focus on clearing away nature and making an industrial nation. Although that may clash harshly with another PC since this AP is so friendly to nature-orientated builds.

As for how far inter-party conflict goes, I agree 100% that there should be absolutely no ruining of each other's fun. No compromise there. But I do want to ask about how strict we are going to be on "ultimately you have to be allies". Would it be acceptable if there is a real risk of a character going rogue or betraying the party, as long as it was done in a way that made sense and was fun for everybody? Not that I am intentionally wanting to do that by any stretch of the imagination, but I want it feel like there's real stakes with inter-party conflict and tensions that isn't made hollow by the meta-game knowledge "we will make up and be friends one way or the other".

I want to emphasize my focus on making sure everybody is having a good time, not just me, and get all of your thoughts before going too in depth on such a character concept. I would definitely be transparent about a lot of what's going on and be communicating constantly, and would go into this with full understanding that if my character snapped there would be a real chance of her getting ganged up on and disposed of by the rest of the party. But ultimately what I think I would really like to see is a lot of moral-gray area and exploration of leadership and choices, and see how the experience changes her as a person. Perhaps I am just feeling inspired by Daenarys from GoT :)

I have nothing against there being a real risk of a rogue character. But ultimately, when it comes time to do the group stuff, there needs to be a REASON for them to come together and tolerate each others presence.

My enjoyment with Kingmaker is most definitely diving into the gray areas and the moral conundrums of ruling. I definitely wanna see the PC's inner thoughts in your posts, so everyone can see a true story unfold with ideas as to everyone's motivations for why they are doing things.

So...regarding betrayal...yes, I am fine with the threat of it looming, but IF it ever happened, it would need to be something that was built up over the course of the ENTIRE campaign, and be part of the grand finale. Minor betrayals, of course, could possibly happen throughout.

I have nothing against there being a real risk of a rogue character. But ultimately, when it comes time to do the group stuff, there needs to be a REASON for them to come together and tolerate each others presence.

Ah, well no worries there. My character will have spent their first 7 levels with the party and would have done significant bonding with them, so unless something drastic happens would be there for them to share the bloodshed and diplomacy.

I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to the possibilities of betrayal. Definitely needs to be built up and heavily foreshadowed. I can go on a huge rant about how I hate twist villains (looking at you, Frozen/Captain Marvel/Big Hero 6), and:

However, I want to get the opinions of the others before I continue on. Although you and I seem to be on the same page about this and would both get enjoyment out of it, I want to ensure the others would also be able to find enjoyment in it.

I'm not sure I should be here, but I am anyway, at least thinking about joining. (I may come to my senses when the baby finally comes home from the hospital--everything going well on that front.)

I already have an idea or two for characters, but I'm not saying anything until everyone else posts their concepts. Because it would be totally uncool for me to take a concept and then not actually join this game.

I promise not to overreact again! :)

Evil as fine with me as long as we can work together. I think Neutral is what I want to try. Good of the whole vs good of the individual kind of thing. A ruler that weighs all his/her options and makes the call that seems best for the land.

But I have a LOT of reading to do before I know exactly what I want to do.

TAZO! You can always start and then merge without another's land if you need to drop out. Or simply start as a vassal of another. All the roleplaying without any of the paperwork.

Man you guys have been busy in here today.

My two cents.

1) I'd prefer not to just skip over the first two books. I've never played Kingmaker and I don't want to lose all of the content. If there is a way to work through all of the key plot points in a quickened fashion, maybe RP only, that'd be great.

2) I'm joining this game, but I have to tell you my "max game limit" has been breached. I'm not going to pass up the opportunity to play with you guys again, but the amount of work involved from running my own kingdom sounds a little daunting to me right now. I'd love to pair up with someone. I'm down with being the lessor spouse of a ruler, younger sibling or something still in a position of power but not the ruler.

What was the max set to? I seem to remember you stating a number in roll20 once but I am old and refuse to search... cause I'm old.

I like to keep it under ten and I’m at 12 now.

So to further expand on my idea, what if I recently married another player to merge lands. Perhaps a forced marriage. To sweeten the pot I could be in love with a different player though. Create and angsty relationship at home and stir the pot with another set of lands.

The 15 point buy is giving me heartburn. All of my favorite character concepts are high skill, MAD types. I’m trying to figure something out.

Any consideration for the elephant in the room feat tax rules?

Also, do familiars and animal companions count as a penalty towards leadership score?

Lastly, I think I can deal with evil PCs in the party, but I’m not sure I could effectively roleplay with an antipaladin in the party, with the possible exception of the insinuator or tyrant. At some point any character of mine would have left the group if he/she found themselves forced to interact regularly with someone literally dedicated to suffering and destruction. So I don’t want to put a damper on anyone’s fun, but I thought I'd mention it.

Tazo - you are of course welcome to join in!

For Tazo (or anyone) - If you are concerned about the extra time or bookkeeping involved with Kingdom stuff, you can bow out as making a PC intent on being a ruler and instead make someone who is loyal to another or, as someone has mentioned, their spouse or younger sibling. In which case you could fill a Leadership role in their lands.

We won’t skip over the first two books now. We will, however, bypass the pointless exploration bits. So build as level 1 characters and maximum starting wealth.

Regarding 15 point buy: I want to keep point buy and feat totals down to prevent too much power in the PC’s hands. I want the monsters/villains of the game to feel like threats, not speed bumps. Also: I want you to HAVE to rely on one another to survive. Lower point buy and no freebie feats makes all of this happen in the simplest manner.

That's fine, just constrains me a bit - can't necessarily do a jack-of-all trades dude like I usually would. I can figure something out.

Nm, you said purely charisma, level, and traits/abilities. So no miscellaneous modifiers are included.

Well, I mean, I’m basically saying anything RAW that affects Leadership will apply. But as for the bonuses available to the score that are described within the feat itself, I will be handing those out once you guys elevate them, and if you feel you have and I haven’t given them yet, just ask me if you can get those and I’ll answer one way or the other.

So, maybe first steps we should see who all even wants to mess with all the bookkeeping aspects and then we can work out how many kingdoms we will have and go from there? I mean, I suppose it could change around based on how the expedited RP plays out, but it might help people plan their characters.

I would assume if two or more people were in one kingdom because one or more people didn't want to mess with the bookkeeping aspect, only the one that was planning to be the ruler would actually need to take the leadership feat?

I don't have an issue with bookkeeping so I will start to plan for a ruler character. So probably Paladin/Oracle/Bard/Sorc/Summoner, likely leaning toward either Bard or Summoner since those are two I haven't actually played before.

Well, I mean, I’m basically saying anything RAW that affects Leadership will apply. But as for the bonuses available to the score that are described within the feat itself, I will be handing those out once you guys elevate them, and if you feel you have and I haven’t given them yet, just ask me if you can get those and I’ll answer one way or the other.

I don’t intend on getting many of the leadership penalties, but is there a penalty for a familiar or companion, then? It’s RAW but some GMs I’ve played with have handwaved it.

Depends on what you would plan the cohort to be, in most cases, is how I ran it.

Looking at them as a servant/assistant? Then having a familiar would impose the -2, not the mount or animal companion.

Planning on them being a combat ally? Then the animal companion would result in the -2, not the familiar/special mount?

Wanting a fancy mount? Then a class feature mount gives a penalty, not the familiar/animal companion.

In this case, since it is by default going to be a servant/assistant, only the first scenario would apply.

And yes, only those planning on running a kingdom would be required to take Leadership at 7.

Lastly, I think I can deal with evil PCs in the party, but I’m not sure I could effectively roleplay with an antipaladin in the party, with the possible exception of the insinuator or tyrant. At some point any character of mine would have left the group if he/she found themselves forced to interact regularly with someone literally dedicated to suffering and destruction. So I don’t want to put a damper on anyone’s fun, but I thought I'd mention it.

If I went forward with this concept I would absolutely be a tyrant archetype. Makes much more sense thematically, and a CE ruler/party member is just asking for trouble.

As for bookkeeping, I am good with it and actually have quite a bit of experience with it, particularly in the Kingmaker AP (I was the ruler the last time I played it and we were a 2 person party, so I did almost all of it on my own).

I do need to read Ultimate Campaign to have any idea if I will be up for the book keeping. I think I will be fine with it, but also have no problems working with another character.

I think I'm starting to settle in on my concept. It doesn't appear anybody is objecting to the idea so I'm going to start looking at the details.

GM when it comes to multiclassing do you want us to use fractional base bonuses?

I don't have any problems with anyone playing anything mentioned yet.
Play something fun!

Right now I'm looking between a cavalier daring champion or swashbuckler.

Has it been confirmed we are starting at 7?

We’re now just gonna start at 1 and go sorta quick through the first couple books, focusing on plot points over exploration.

DM Thron did you have any thoughts on fractional base bonuses? I think my character will end up being 3 different classes and I know that can be a bit messy depending on the build.

I would rather use as few of sub systems as possible, but if that’s what the majority wanna use I’m fine with it.

I'm fine either way, I'll keep it simple in that case. Luckily my particular multiclass will end up being very simple and balanced without having to use fractional bonuses.

Even though I’m probably not mutliclassing, I’d be more than happy to let the other PCs get a system like this. It lets people do interesting things, sometimes.

Oh the paths I could take Esrisi with said subsystem!

Anyone have any ideas for characters? I’m stuck between a fey trickster mesmerist, a monster tactician inquisitor, and remaking my sacred huntmaster inquisitor from Ironfang invasion (who I loved playing). The first two would be leaders, the last one - probably not. What is everyone else considering?

Anyone have any ideas for characters? I’m stuck between a fey trickster mesmerist, a monster tactician inquisitor, and remaking my sacred huntmaster inquisitor from Ironfang invasion (who I loved playing). The first two would be leaders, the last one - probably not. What is everyone else considering?

I think the first big question you need to answer is: Do you want to play a leader? That will heavily influence how your character is made.

The concept I'm currently going with will be Rogue 1/Antipaladin 3/Fighter ?, definitely a frontline damage dealer who does some debuffing too, and should be quite the intimidate monster.

I’ve got the brain to handle the complicated mechanics, I think (inclination is a different story). But, I’d be middlebrow at intrigue, at best.

Problem is that it seems like not everyone wants to or has the inclination to do the mechanics, so it seems that we need a few city/barony leaders who can do it.

If I did, I’d optimize the crap out of the UC rules with spreadsheets and the like, so that’s a benefit at least.

It’s a good question!

Hey: if the entire group would prefer just one leader, that’s fine and just simplified things in one aspect, though it would take away the potential for kingdom interplay and territory disputes. Though, if that happens, I suppose I could always just drop some NPC’s in to claim some lands to...

*evil grin*

Well, so far we have two definite leaders with myself and CampinCarl, hard no for Phoneix and probably Tazo if he joins. John was ok either way, so would be up to you Lite which way you wanted to go. I think the big question is if you want to play a character with a good Charisma or not if the rules and spreadsheet stuff isn’t an issue.

Hmm... if Lite goes leader, I'll go in a supporting role. Three leaders and three supports. If he doesn't, I'll need to decide/read/research. Either way it would still be even.

I've been considering a spymaster type, mostly rogue.

There’s also the spirit guide nature oracle, which would give us 9th level spells, a combat companion with a high int, and enough charisma that the companion penalty doesn’t matter (and nature oracle allows for a bit of SAD in an average point buy situation). Spirit guide gets us a lot of per day flexiblity. I could take craft wondrous item and craft almost anything. Any thoughts? I’ve got the general shape of the roleplaying in my head, regardless of the class.

Oracle is lovely as a high charisma class, especially with a combat companion so you don't have to balance your attributes. Good choice.

Does that mean you are going to be a leader? That will free me up on spending more points in charisma :)