Kirthfinder - Sovalles

Game Master Kirth Gersen

Discussion thread open!

Awesome! I'm putting everyone's characters into the standard stat-block format that I'll refer to during the game. This also helps me spot anything wonky or missing, so I'll have suggestions/recommendations up shortly.

I am teh here!

I'm trying to finish up my dude -- are we using the 'optional stats'/comeliness, social class?

Can I have 2 sets of scale male, one for my humanoid, and one for my rat form?

Okay this is my dude -- I think I have everything, but I'm not really a rules maven, so please get me in line if I'm messing something up.

I'll work on some backstory hooks on the idea he's a loan from the Pomarj to Aramni, sent over to serve a local lord because he's from a fine line of killers bred by the servants of the Earth Dragon.

Do you want to tie our backgrounds together Dairkal, I'm playing an assassin -- I wonder if we could have some sort of underworld/blackmarket ties.

Sure, why not? While Dairkal will be somewhat effective in combat, just due to how the rogue seems to play in Kirthfinder, he's going to be more focused on skills, connections/contacts, and interactions.

What did you settle on class/build wise?

I'm trying to finish up my dude -- are we using the 'optional stats'/comeliness, social class?

Each player can decide whether they want to or not.

Can I have 2 sets of scale male, one for my humanoid, and one for my rat form?

Yes, but you'd have to take the time to put it on as a rat, and without hands, that means someone would have to put it on you. Also, you don't have Medium armor proficiency unless you spend 2 feats on it (Light Armor Proficiency and Medium Armor Proficiency).

Reposting my questions from recruitment:

Would you prefer us(some or all) to work on a shared backstory, or should that occur organically in game?

As the setting is pretty sparse(in the intro at least), and the general theme seems to be to build the world together with the PCs(which I whole-heartily approve of btw. I *love* kingdom/world building), do we have more or less free reign on our backstories? If so, is there anything we should avoid, that just wouldn't fit? Ie, if the general setting is high fantasy, no being a computer hacker, lol.

I have a general background somewhat in mind, would you like me to post what I got so far?

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Aside from backstory (which I don't know how much you want from us) and gear, I believe Dairkal is mostly done.

Let me know if you have any critiques or suggestions Kirth, or anybody else for that matter!

Sebecloki wrote:

I'm trying to finish up my dude -- are we using the 'optional stats'/comeliness, social class?

Each player can decide whether they want to or not.

Sebecloki wrote:

Can I have 2 sets of scale male, one for my humanoid, and one for my rat form?

Yes, but you'd have to take the time to put it on as a rat, and without hands, that means someone would have to put it on you. Also, you don't have Medium armor proficiency unless you spend 2 feats on it (Light Armor Proficiency and Medium Armor Proficiency).

Ok, thanks I need to fix the armor situation.

Sure, why not? While Dairkal will be somewhat effective in combat, just due to how the rogue seems to play in Kirthfinder, he's going to be more focused on skills, connections/contacts, and interactions.

What did you settle on class/build wise?

This is sebecloki's character. I'm a hobgoblin lycanthrope. I have 2 types of poison attacks between the dire rat form and a feat. I'm going to go up in both lycanthrope and the goblin paragon class, focusing on natural attacks.

He's a super-assassin bred in the Pomarj who was sent as a present to one of the local lords of Aramni, as a kind of tribute/sign of good tidings.

EDIT: I'm looking at the goblin paragon/lycanthrope/planetouched worghest build -- that's what I think I'm going to do for the first 10 or so levels is max out all those racial classes, and then add fighter, rogue, or barbarian on top of that.

Ok, thanks I need to fix the armor situation.

Yeah, armor with a check penalty is a bad deal for you, because of the impact to your skills, and because it shorts out your Canny Defense.

Would you prefer us(some or all) to work on a shared backstory, or should that occur organically in game?

I'll let each player decide that for him/herself.

do we have more or less free reign on our backstories? If so, is there anything we should avoid, that just wouldn't fit? Ie, if the general setting is high fantasy, no being a computer hacker, lol.

Yes, subject to minor modifications (only if needed to fit the setting).

I have a general background somewhat in mind, would you like me to post what I got so far?

Sure!

Also wondering if we could fit this idea beside Avionna, working off Monkeygod's idea for including Faerun.

http://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/p/mystoerth.html

The northwestern part of eastern continent where Avionna would be has basically nothing in it from the Mystara canon perspective.

OK, let's look at some characters.

D’RAHOLON SCAARG

DAIRKAL NIMBLECLOAK

I'm confused about the difference between racial feats and traits -- do you get 2 feats or traits, or are these separate 'bins'. I'm having a hard time following what the options are in the hobgoblin entry

I couldn't figure out the bonus skill tricks. It says 'You gain bonus
tricks based on your Intelligence modifier (much as awizard gains bonus spells per day),' but when I looked at the Wizard, I didn't see anything about that, beyond the extra bonus spells for their spellbook.

Weapons will probably be rapier for melee, and throwing daggers for ranged.

Also, due to the combination of weapon finesse, feat mastery(finesse) and combat opportunist, don't I get my dex to damage, assuming I'm using qualifying weapons?

4d6 ⇒ (1, 6, 5, 3) = 15 = 14. Social class, - 2 for halfling = 12.

1d20 + 12 ⇒ (15) + 12 = 27 27x15 = 405 for starting wealth.

Edit: You have my crafts at +7, but should they not be +9 due to Practicality?

Double edit: Did you do my skills wrong, or did I? You left off Stealth, and you have my Streetwise 2 higher(1 rank +3 class +4 Cha) than I do. Where did the extra +2 come from?

Also, I should have Diplomacy and Disable Device, as I have 7 skill ranks, no? I got a free rank in a secondary skill, and 5 free ranks due to being a rogue for a grand total of 13 skill ranks, yes? Or did I mess that up??

I'm confused about the difference between racial feats and traits -- do you get 2 feats or traits, or are these separate 'bins'. I'm having a hard time following what the options are in the hobgoblin entry

See intro to Chapter 2. Basically, each race gets two feats and two traits. Races with disadvantages (e.g., halflings' small size) get an extra trait to compensate.

I couldn't figure out the bonus skill tricks. It says 'You gain bonus tricks based on your Intelligence modifier (much as a wizard gains bonus spells per day),' but when I looked at the Wizard, I didn't see anything about that, beyond the extra bonus spells for their spellbook.

Standardized spellcasting rules are in the Spellcasting chapter (Ch 8), not in the wizard class description. (The note for the rogue says "like a wizard" because the Int modifier is being used.)

Also, due to the combination of weapon finesse, feat mastery(finesse) and combat opportunist, don't I get my dex to damage, assuming I'm using qualifying weapons?

Yes. I'll fix that.

You have my crafts at +7, but should they not be +9 due to Practicality?

Yes! Sorry, I missed that. Also fixed.

Did you do my skills wrong, or did I? You left off Stealth, and you have my Streetwise 2 higher(1 rank +3 class +4 Cha) than I do. Where did the extra +2 come from?

Yes, add Stealth* (1/+11). The extra +2 from Streetwise is from your favored terrain bonus.

Also, I should have Diplomacy and Disable Device, as I have 7 skill ranks, no? I got a free rank in a secondary skill, and 5 free ranks due to being a rogue for a grand total of 13 skill ranks, yes? Or did I mess that up??

Let's see--Bluff, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth, and Streetwise are bonus skills. Assuming Perform is your secondary skill, you'd have 4+3=7 left to choose: Acrobatics, 2 crafts, Knowledge, and Sleight of Hand = 5, so, yes, you can add those two.

Man, I need to do a more careful job of this!

DAIRKAL NIMBLECLOAK:

ESHKEVAL

AEMUR

Warriorking9001, please try and finish up (name, exotic feat effect for shield, human bonus feats). What I have so far:

1. You can get Exotic broadsword use as part of your human weapon familiarity, using the fighter exotic proficiency for the shield, and leaving you with 2 human racial feats to choose.
2. Assuming Craft is your bonus secondary skill, you get 1 more skill.
3. I'd recommend taking armor training as your initial talent (it's really good for sword-and-board) and waiting until 3rd for Challenge.

ESHKEVAL ** spoiler omitted **Nice!

You can get +3 insight to AC if you key Canny Defense to Cha instead of Wis, but if you're looking to boost Wis in the future, I'd leave it as you have it.
Looks like you just need to pick spells and gear and you're ready to go (I made the assumption you'd take the Magic domain spell so as to get access to that ranged attack).

Yeah, I was planning on boosting my WIS by taking Eldritch Heritage for the Artistry bloodline at level 3. That said, I don't think it'll actually get much higher than my Charisma (since I'm planning on boosting it with my level up bonuses), so I guess I'm probably fine with the way Canny Defense is now. Hell, I think they might both actually end up as the same value, so either or is fine by me.

You made the correct assumption on the Magic Domain spell. It's going to be my main form of attack. I'm totally going with the "Card Caster" aesthetic too, so I'm fluffing the arcane bolts as thrown cards made out of arcane energy.

Speaking of which, I was kind of planning on using a dagger as my melee weapon. Which I would also fluff as a card. Here's a character image

As for spells, I pretty much only get 3 1st level spells, correct? And I can choose for these to be seed spells, correct? If so, then I choose the following:

--> Bestow Feat
--> Creation
--> Remove Condition

Then of course, there are a bunch of 0 level seed spells that I am interested in learning. It says that I start off with all 0 level cleric spells, but does this include the 0 level divine seed spells as well? If not, can I trade 0 level cleric spells for 0 level divine seed spells?

Spellcasting seed spells are a little bit complicated, so please let me know if I'm doing everything correctly, or if I can't take a specific seed spell.

As for the 3 orisons that I begin play with, I was planning on using Extend Spell to reduce the duration of Creation, so I could have a 10 min/level "Create Water" orison and a 10 min/level "Create Food" orison as 2/3 of my starting orisons. Would that be acceptable, or is it problematic that I can solve all issues of food and water from level 1?

AEMUR

** spoiler omitted ** 1. Although you can trade a racial feat for 2 traits, nowhere does it say the reverse is true; I suggest you keep Skillyman and sneak attack, since they seem like important parts of what you're going for, and get rid of arcane resistance. That leaves you with 2 traits from the halfling or hill dwarf lists (or one from each).
2. You get a feat at 1st level, not including your bonus feats.
3. For a guy with favored terrain (underground), it's going to be awkward not having any ranks in Profession (mining), which is essentially the underground Survival skill.
4. Same comment re: Will saves as for Scaarg.
5. You'll need to decide which effect you're getting for the Exotic glaive proficiency (shorten grip or more damage).
Once you look at that stuff and pick spells and gear, you're good to go!

Yes, I realized I forgot the first level feat, as well as additional languages and a few other things, like the glaive being more damage focused... including the concern with Will saves. I actually need to double check something on Backstabber / Sneak Attack; I was looking towards it for the ability to add a strike on a sneak attack. However, I vaguely recalled a post where you said that required the Opportune Strike Rogue class feature, not just sneak attack; can you confirm if that's the case?

On the racial feat and traits; I was looking at it from the perspective of basically being a Stout Halfling, but with the dwarven heritage being the physically dominant (medium size, not small) background, and the halfling side being the secondary - just reversing the given example. I'll do as you suggest, though I'm not sure exactly what would be included in that - it sounds like the following would (maybe?) be correct?

I might go ahead and go with a small size, and balance the damage dice decrease with the increased damage from Exotic Proficiency.

I'll look at changing around some ability scores and skill points tonight and post a final character when it's cohesive.

EDIT: When it comes to powers from the Nomad Psion list, does that include Paizo's changes to make some of them 0-level talents? Far Hand is specifically the one I am looking at.

I can choose for these to be seed spells, correct? If so, then I choose the following:

--> Bestow Feat
--> Creation
--> Remove Condition

They can be, but if you're playing a spontaneous caster, it would be "bestow feat (insert specific feat here) and creation (specific substance) and remove condition (specific condition), unless the seed is pre-modified with the Variable Spell feat (+1 spell level).

As for the 3 orisons that I begin play with, I was planning on using Extend Spell to reduce the duration of Creation, so I could have a 10 min/level "Create Water" orison and a 10 min/level "Create Food" orison as 2/3 of my starting orisons. Would that be acceptable, or is it problematic that I can solve all issues of food and water from level 1?

You can do that even without knowing the feat, by learning them pre-modified. And no, that's not absurd. Using 2/3 of your orisons to avoid having to lug around rations and canteens is a legitimate thing for a support caster to do.

I vaguely recalled a post where you said that required the Opportune Strike Rogue class feature, not just sneak attack; can you confirm if that's the case?

That was the intent, but I forgot to clarify the language. Mea culpa! I'll do it tomorrow.

When it comes to powers from the Nomad Psion list, does that include Paizo's changes to make some of them 0-level talents? Far Hand is specifically the one I am looking at.

See Chapter 8 and Appendix 8a. Now that they're essentially complete, they supersede all existing spell descriptions, Paizo or otherwise. Far hand is identical to the 0-level mage hand spell seed in Chapter 8, just with a different name.

Aemur Farstride wrote:

I vaguely recalled a post where you said that required the Opportune Strike Rogue class feature, not just sneak attack; can you confirm if that's the case?

That was the intent, but I forgot to clarify the language. Mea culpa! I'll do it tomorrow.

Aemur Farstride wrote:

When it comes to powers from the Nomad Psion list, does that include Paizo's changes to make some of them 0-level talents? Far Hand is specifically the one I am looking at.

See Chapter 8 and Appendix 8a. Now that they're essentially complete, they supersede all existing spell descriptions, Paizo or otherwise. Far hand is identical to the 0-level mage hand spell seed in Chapter 8, just with a different name.

I think I will exchange Basckstabber for another racial feat, then. Sneak attack by itself is not integral to the character mechanically or conceptually.

What should a ranger use for his spell list, then? Or is the spell list the same as Paizo Core ranger + the given spells in the class descriptions, but using the descriptions given? Mage Hand is not on the ranger list, but Far Hand would be as a Psion Nomad power, so the distinction may matter.

Kaouse wrote:

I can choose for these to be seed spells, correct? If so, then I choose the following:

--> Bestow Feat
--> Creation
--> Remove Condition

They can be, but if you're playing a spontaneous caster, it would be "bestow feat (insert specific feat here) and creation (specific substance) and remove condition (specific condition), unless the seed is pre-modified with the Variable Spell feat (+1 spell level).

And that's why I'm playing a prepared caster, lol. That said, I suppose this means that I'll have to prepare the spells as "bestow feat (insert specific feat here) and creation (specific substance) and remove condition (specific condition)," correct? I'm fine with that, since I can change them on the daily.

That said, I would like to clarify if seed spells like "Damage Attribute" work like this as well. Can I take "Damage Attribute" as a seed spell and then choose which attribute to damage, or am I forced to take "Damage STR" (/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA) as it's own seed spell? If that's the case, could I learn a Variable Spell Metamagic version of "Damage Attribute" then?

At any rate, I'll keep Creation as a 1st level seed spell though. It's far, far too perfect a spell for my character to have.

I'll leave a slot empty for a specific Remove Condition though. Actually, I might just leave all of my non-domain slots open. That way I can prepare the best thing for the occasion. At least for now. Maybe later I can look into better options once I see the group's dynamic.

Also, you never answered the question about level 0 divine seed spells. Do I have all of them by default in my prayer book?

Couple of plot points so far:

Dair(his nickname) is 1/3 of a set of triplets. Haven't settled on any names yet, but there's both a boy and girl.

He's also got an older brother, older sister, and at least one younger sibling. There might be more siblings as well.

His family 'belongs' to a rather large and at least somewhat powerful elven noble house. They are treated quite well, and the children were all educated/trained.

Due to Dairkal's natural and innate ability to go unnoticed by even some of the more perceptive elves, he was trained to be a scout/spy.

**************************************

Let me know if any of this clashes with the setting Kirth.

What should a ranger use for his spell list, then? Or is the spell list the same as Paizo Core ranger + the given spells in the class descriptions, but using the descriptions given? Mage Hand is not on the ranger list, but Far Hand would be as a Psion Nomad power, so the distinction may matter.

Ranger can pick pretty much anything that thematically fits. Mage hand = far hand = valid choice.

I suppose this means that I'll have to prepare the spells as "bestow feat (insert specific feat here) and creation (specific substance) and remove condition (specific condition)," correct?

Exactly.

That said, I would like to clarify if seed spells like "Damage Attribute" work like this as well. Can I take "Damage Attribute" as a seed spell and then choose which attribute to damage, or am I forced to take "Damage STR" (/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA) as it's own seed spell? If that's the case, could I learn a Variable Spell Metamagic version of "Damage Attribute" then?

Per the text:

a separate “seed spell” exists for each attribute

Also, you never answered the question about level 0 divine seed spells. Do I have all of them by default in my prayer book?

The "all orisons" was put in place long before I reverse-engineered the spells into seeds, so it's probably obsolete now. I'm open to suggestions.

Let me know if any of this clashes with the setting Kirth.

It fits quite well, and also ties into an adventure that's been germinating in my mind. If it's OK, I'm going to put you in South Province, an area historically famous for horse breeding, and more recently infamous as the site of d'Ansac's Rebellion, which you can read about HERE. Assume that you and/or most of your siblings were conscripted as part of that war effort.

You're in the city of Sovalles, now ruled by the Marquessa Mathilde d'Ansac, niece of the late Marquis Aujule d'Ansac -- it is in her household that your family now works.

Dairkal, if you're interested, THIS ADVENTURE took place in Aramni.

Personal Weapon (and may I ask permission for something? I can understand if this is really silly but because of the fact that I somewhat was designing this character concept around the Armorist. I was wondering if I could do something to 'summon' my sword to my side.)

If you get at least one level in a class that gets an arcane bond (e.g., wizard, or a lot of the battle sorcerer paths), declare your weapon to be your bonded item. From the Bonded Items rules:

Summon Item (Sp): Starting at 10th level, as a partial action you can summon your bonded item to appear immediately in your hand. The item can be up to 10 miles per class level away, although if it is in someone else's possession or in a locked room, you must make a Concentration check (DC 25) to summon it.

Alternatively, if you have at least 11 ranks in Concentration, you can take the Magical Talent feat and select instant summons as the spell-like ability (Chapter 5). Or spend 11,880 numen to add a command-activated instant summons 1/day to the item (Chapter 6).

---

A young Smith's son who through unusual circumstances found that if he was in danger he could draw a sword from thin air. He took this as a sign that he probably had a great destiny of some kind

Unfortunately, none of the examples above are things you can do regularly at 1st level. What you can do instead is spend 400 numen (out of your 500 starting) on a masterwork sword, and declare you pulled it out of the air. That's in keeping with the example of Arthur being handed Excaliber out of a lake, cited in Chapter 6. You won't be able to do it at will yet, but you get the backstory you want.

Kaouse wrote:

That said, I would like to clarify if seed spells like "Damage Attribute" work like this as well. Can I take "Damage Attribute" as a seed spell and then choose which attribute to damage, or am I forced to take "Damage STR" (/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA) as it's own seed spell? If that's the case, could I learn a Variable Spell Metamagic version of "Damage Attribute" then?

Per the text:

Damage Attribute wrote:

a separate “seed spell” exists for each attribute

So there's no such thing as a "Variable Damage Attribute" Seed Spell that I could learn? Unfortunate.

Kaouse wrote:

Also, you never answered the question about level 0 divine seed spells. Do I have all of them by default in my prayer book?

The "all orisons" was put in place long before I reverse-engineered the spells into seeds, so it's probably obsolete now. I'm open to suggestions.

Specifically, the text states:

You begin play with a prayer book containing all of the Core rules 0-level cleric spells

...Which means I would begin play with:

Bleed
Create Water
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Enhanced Diplomacy
Guidance
Light
Mending
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Resistance
Spark
Stabilize
Virtue

That said, I'd rather gain some 0 level divine seed spells. Trading them on a 1-to-1 basis might be a bit crazy, but how about a 2-to-1 basis, where I trade access to 2 Core orisons for access to 1 seed spell?

There are 14 spells listed in total, so this would give me 7 level 0 seed spells. What do you think?

So there's no such thing as a "Variable Damage Attribute" Seed Spell that I could learn?

I'd let you do that.

That said, I'd rather gain some 0 level divine seed spells. Trading them on a 1-to-1 basis might be a bit crazy, but how about a 2-to-1 basis, where I trade access to 2 Core orisons for access to 1 seed spell?

There are 14 spells listed in total, so this would give me 7 level 0 seed spells. What do you think?

Seed spells are a lot more versatile than 2:1. I'm thinking more like 4:1, so I'll give you four.

So I finally have at least a rough draft of the character set into stone as an alias. how does it look?

Kaouse wrote:

So there's no such thing as a "Variable Damage Attribute" Seed Spell that I could learn?

I'd let you do that.

Kaouse wrote:

That said, I'd rather gain some 0 level divine seed spells. Trading them on a 1-to-1 basis might be a bit crazy, but how about a 2-to-1 basis, where I trade access to 2 Core orisons for access to 1 seed spell?

There are 14 spells listed in total, so this would give me 7 level 0 seed spells. What do you think?

Seed spells are a lot more versatile than 2:1. I'm thinking more like 4:1, so I'll give you four.

Okay, then I'll choose the following:

As for the three level 1 seed spells I chose earlier, I was thinking of trading out Bestow Feat, and maybe taking it later. Instead, would it be possible to use the arcane version of Dimensional Skip?

I do have access to the Magic Domain (for arcane power), and even the Time Domain (for spacetime manipulation). Archivist states that spells that relate to your domain can be added, afterall. And it is technically a divine spell...for the most part.

would it be possible to use the arcane version of Dimensional Skip? I do have access to the Magic Domain (for arcane power), and even the Time Domain (for spacetime manipulation).

Approved!

So I finally have at least a rough draft of the character set into stone as an alias. how does it look?

It looks good so far. Referring to the notes you left in the Recruitment thread, I extrapolate to the following (let me know if any of this looks wonky):

CAYDEN MOORE

It seems like everything is together so far. though I might need refreshing on what the other secondary skills are... And hope that I don't end up getting killed because of my con being lower than most frontlines.

And just one more question that won't really show up in this version of the build but might later. If I choose Arcane for a background as a battle sorcerer can I choose to give up the arcana in any way? (since he's a charisma guy if I decide to go for the arcane bond stuff, which going battle sorcerer is somewhat the only reason his charisma is so high). I'd say something about the Magus background but I doubt that I'll be casting spells and hitting people in the same round.

Though also whilst talking about Magus... Granted maybe this is more of a KF discussion question but it only just hit me that Black Blade magi aren't here, though numen or leadership could replace it somewhat.

If I choose Arcane for a background as a battle sorcerer can I choose to give up the arcana in any way?

It says "can choose to" use Int instead of Cha; it doesn't say "must use" Int instead of Cha. The choice is yours.

Black Blade magi aren't here, though numen or leadership could replace it somewhat.

The Bladebound magus' black blade is, in essence, a combo bonded weapon/familiar. Per Chapter 6:

If you have the arcane bond class feature, one option is to select a bonded object and also take the Arcane Bond feat (Chapter 5), and designate the object as your familiar. The object then gains an Intelligence score equal to 5 + half your effective master level.

For anything else (Life Drinker and so on), either spend numen or make it an improved familiar with the Thaumaturgy feat.

Here we go. Moved around some attribute scores - a little lower in some areas to reduce the absolutely dreadful CHA dump. Everything except some misc. non-magical equipment should be together. Initial Mark of the Wild choices will either be a non-combat mount or a non-combat flying scout. May just purchase a mount / pony if I can figure out pricing for that.

I cannot find the damage dice progression, though I swear I have seen it before; I need to modify the 2d6 damage from Exotic Proficiency downwards for being Small sized.

Kirth,

Is Kingdom Building (ie, using the rules from Ultimate Campaign) a possibility in your system, or does such not really mesh?

Kirth,

Is Kingdom Building (ie, using the rules from Ultimate Campaign) a possibility in your system, or does such not really mesh?

I don't use Ultimate Campaign, but kingdom building (or, more often, kingdom acquisition) is almost integral to most games I run, if they last into double-digit levels (and often even before that).

Here we go. Moved around some attribute scores - a little lower in some areas to reduce the absolutely dreadful CHA dump.

Solid! The Cha increase definitely helps on your handle animal capacity, too. I look forward to seeing Aemur in play.

Extremely minor trivia:

• Mundane non-masterwork equipment doesn't count against your mojo, so you have 125 discretionary spent. Awesome use of crafting and overflow, BTW.
  
• Piddly skills math: Stealth is +8 with your Dex at 10, and Mining is +7 with your favored terrain bonus.

Cayden, if it's OK, I'm going to put you in the town of Paillard, about 30 miles northwest of Sovalles.