Torture

Next session, chances are that the PCs will be captured and interrogated by an evil prison warden (they are trying to jailbreak someone). This capture is, btw, a result of the character's reckless actions, it's not a railroad.

Now, telling your player that your character suffered 15 points of damage from the torture rack is no big deal (unless the player is an extraordinarily good role player). He won't give up any information. What I would like to do, even though it somewhat goes against the mantra that the players can control their own characters (unless magically compelled), is to implement some kind of save to see if the character is able to withhold the information.

I know Book of Vile Darkness has some rules on torture, so I will check that out later.

Have anyone else used this in their games? How did the players react?

Just for the disclaimer, we are all adults and not offended by using torture in our games, as long as it contributes to the story, and not simply just there for the gore (SAW 3 and later, I'm looking at you).

The newest issue of Kobold Quarterly has really nice rules for torture. Check it out !

The newest issue of Kobold Quarterly has really nice rules for torture. Check it out !

+1

Seriously, check it out. It addresses your problem precisely.

Gorbacz wrote:

The newest issue of Kobold Quarterly has really nice rules for torture. Check it out !

+1

Seriously, check it out. It addresses your problem precisely.

Wow. A brilliant coincidence, I surely will.

Thank you :)

Gorbacz wrote:

The newest issue of Kobold Quarterly has really nice rules for torture. Check it out !

+1

Seriously, check it out. It addresses your problem precisely.

Linky?

I've never read Kobold Quarterly, is it something I can view online or do I need to purchase it?

I had a similar torture situation in Ravenloft. There's a npc PrC called a Scourge(Champions of Darkness) that is an expert torturer. I would have the player make a Will save = 10 + the subdual damage they took that round, and scale it up a bit each round. Eventually the DC would be so high they would spill the info, or would've possibly passed out from the damage/pain. I can't remember if that's the exact formula, but it's what we used and turned out pretty cool.

I don't believe it can be linked since it's a monthly paid publication.

The rules were pretty simple and fairly well thought through. Basically it was a risk vs. reward system where you might be able to resist with very little bad in the way of things happening to you (damage) vs. having really crappy things happen to you (blindness/ability drain). Reading the article is worth it if you have a chance.

Here's the link to their website. As mentioned above, it is a paid publication, so I can't link the article, but it's in issue 11 and you can buy a PDF of that entire issue for $5.99. There's lots of other good stuff in there, too (especially the article on vampires).

bar getting the Kobold Magazine, I would go for Stat drain.
Having a poker in your guts HAS to be hard on your CON, crippling a finger would be DEx and so forth.

Or alternatively (sp?) you could have them pull from the Critical Hit deck (if you own one) and use the special ability from the card untill they give the info or suffer the consequences.

this would obviously exclude the save or die affects, but i like the idea:

DM: The Torturer looks at you with an evil grin as he brandishes some cruel looking pliars.

"Tell me what you know if you want to keep your fingers!"

Player: "NEVER!" (or something similar)

DM: Ok then he cuts your two outer fingers off, you reel from the pain and take 1 CON and DEX drain. NEXT!

that could get ugly pretty fast....:)

DM: Ok then he cuts your two outer fingers off, you reel from the pain and take 1 CON and DEX drain. NEXT!

HP Damage and Ability Damage, with a Fort. Save to avoid the Ability Damage becoming permanent. DC can be tied to the amount of damage, or the percentage of the PCs total Stat/HP level take or some such thing. Save DC might also increase additively with each injury left unhealed.

Eventually the Player will give up the info or be left with a gimp.

Note that torture is more about pain than damage, though, so there will be a lot of pain inflicted (granted, this is hard to simulate in D&D other than through HP loss ... aka "damage dealt"), followed by application of cure minor wounds followed by more damage.

Regardless, the Player rather than the "PC" or particularly the dice should decide when the interrogation is fruitful.

The most important thing about the whole process, though, is to make certain that the Players are clear on the rules before you start. Sometimes, just the threat of torture is enough to break people, and similarly the threat of permanent ability damage to their Character may break the will of many Players. It's also important to be transparent about the mechanics in a case like this, though. Otherwise you will have very, and legitimately, upset Players on your hands.

HTH,

Rez

When this has come up in games i played in it was usually done as:
Profession: Torturer (Int-Based) vs. Will Save.
Every level by which the torturer beat the subject Will Save imposed a point of Wisdom Damage. When the subject reaches 0 Wisdom they break. After that other skills can come into play for brainwashing and such.

-Weylin

Interesting..

The way I see it, there are two ways of doing this.

A) Like the Kobold Quarterly issue (which gives out some nice random tables of what misery befalls the PC's), where it's still the player who decides when to spill his guts before the torturer spills his guts literally... or

B) Where you implement some kind of Will/Fort save before the PC talks.

I think I'm leaning with A, just so that the player are still in control of the PC.. the problem being that ability drains and blindness (which are two common results on the KQ tables) can be healed relatively inexpensively. Loss of body parts, however..

The article also states that the tables should be put out in the open and the player gets to roll him or herself. That way, the rules become transparent.

I'll definetely try this out next session.

My two cents. Either method works great but if your going to start cutting off body parts and inflicting stat damage then as a DM it's your responsabilty to provide the OPORTUNITY for the player to remove them.
Loseing a finger or a eye or the charecters manhood is one thing but having to go through the entire campaign with a permenant negative is a little harsh for good RP.
Regeneration should be available even if the charecter cant afford it now he should be able to strive for it or quest or whatever later.

The major problem I've experienced with torture scenes is the characters response being overly ballsy:

"Tell me what I want to know or I will cut off a finger."
"Mine or yours?"
"Yours!" etc.

I think having the tables out in the open could be a way to head this off. I'll have to torture a PC tonight and see :)

My two cents. Either method works great but if your going to start cutting off body parts and inflicting stat damage then as a DM it's your responsabilty to provide the OPORTUNITY for the player to remove them..

Oh, most certainly, though I think it can lead to all sorts of fun roleplaying for a while... one-eyed characters being treated like pirates, the paraplegic wizard (you can actually become paralyzed from the waist down using the tables) using spells of Fly to move around...

I think having the tables out in the open could be a way to head this off. I'll have to torture a PC tonight and see :)

Do tell us how this goes :)

(According to various works of fiction I’ve seen or read), torture is actually not a very good way to get accurate information out of someone. Apply enough pain (or sleep deprivation or fear of dying or whatever) and most people will start talking – but they are just as likely (or more likely) to tell their torturer what they think they want to hear, or what they think will get the pain to stop – not necessarily the truth. Something to keep in mind if you apply a mechanic that forces the PC to ‘spill their guts’ as it were with a failed save or something.

When this has come up in games i played in it was usually done as:

Profession: Torturer (Int-Based) vs. Will Save.
Every level by which the torturer beat the subject Will Save imposed a point of Wisdom Damage. When the subject reaches 0 Wisdom they break. After that other skills can come into play for brainwashing and such.

-Weylin

I would go with this. Physical torture isn't that effective in getting the Truth, psychological is the way to go.

(According to various works of fiction I’ve seen or read), torture is actually not a very good way to get accurate information out of someone. Apply enough pain (or sleep deprivation or fear of dying or whatever) and most people will start talking – but they are just as likely (or more likely) to tell their torturer what they think they want to hear, or what they think will get the pain to stop – not necessarily the truth. Something to keep in mind if you apply a mechanic that forces the PC to ‘spill their guts’ as it were with a failed save or something.

Well, the torturer (the prison warden), have really no clue why the PC's are in his prison wreaking havoc (they are Pathfinders trying to jailbreak a guy who has stolen a powerful item from the Society) so actually, they can pretty much tell him a plausible cover story, and he'll probably believe them. It's not so much forcing them to tell the truth, as it is about forcing them to tell something. Players cannot feel their character's pain, so I need some mechanic to bring this out in play.

You could just torture the player until they agree to make their character talk.

Just sayin...

Weylin wrote:

When this has come up in games i played in it was usually done as:

Profession: Torturer (Int-Based) vs. Will Save.
Every level by which the torturer beat the subject Will Save imposed a point of Wisdom Damage. When the subject reaches 0 Wisdom they break. After that other skills can come into play for brainwashing and such.

-Weylin

I would go with this. Physical torture isn't that effective in getting the Truth, psychological is the way to go.

It is a bad taste subject IMO and I personally would rather not RP it but just stick to dice rolls and a Will save.

I see it as low ranks in torture being purely physical and often resluting in poor information. Higher ranks get more and more cerebral until around rank 15 you dont even have to touch the victim to start breaking them down. And best to combine with good ranks of Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perception and Sense Motive. There is half the class skills for an Expert torturer.

On the subject of going into detail on it, aside from the opening scene of it, i dont really see the reason to dwell on what actually happens.

On the subject of player decide is a very poor option in my opinion. I would not trust most people I have gamed with over the years to have their character actually break when for all reasons they should. Few people i know like having their character appear weak for any reason.

-Weylin

I just want to give a big thanks to all those that pointed out KQ11. Not only was the magazine a fantastic read, but the torture rules in there were ingenius. Having the PLAYERS actually role what happens to their characters is just brilliant.

I have a similar situation involving torture that I strongly suspect will be coming up in my own campaign. Having these rules to fall back on is great!!

Thanks again!
-J

The way I see it, there are two ways of doing this.

A) Like the Kobold Quarterly issue (which gives out some nice random tables of what misery befalls the PC's), where it's still the player who decides when to spill his guts before the torturer spills his guts literally... or

B) Where you implement some kind of Will/Fort save before the PC talks.

A for PCs

B for NPCs

FWIW,

Rez

In campaign I played in, one of my friends took ranks in Profession (Torturer) and then used that based on whatever DC's the DM wanted to set them at. He rarely made him RP it out, because for one we all know what a sick and twisted imagination he can have at times (but that's why you're fun to have around, Dom, in case you're reading) and we didn't really want to deal with that too much. We saw the after-effect, sure, which was usually a dead person missing all of their digits and their throat slit, or something similar to that. But hey, what can you expect when you give a NE character torture implements?

Anyways, if you had someone hold some bolt cutters to your character's Achilles's Tendons, you would have some VERY talkative players. That, or the tendons in their wrists, thereby making it impossible to wield a sword or cast spells with a somatic component ever again (until they can get a regeneration spell, but if you take their tongue and their ability to use their hands, they would really have no way to communicate with others to request such a spell). Obviously this method works much better if you do it to an NPC first, showing what happens to those stoic heroes with steely resolves. At that point rules become moot, because everyone knows what the consequences to having any of said things happen to them are. Rules make players disassociate themselves from what's happening to their characters, because numbers and dice rolls are so far removed from the emotional response.

Just my 2cp

I prefer the stat drain method, with Sense Motive from the torturer to see if he's lying.

Keep in mind that if someone makes a habit of torturing NPCs, word will get out and he's likely to get worse if captured, and people will tend not to surrender to him, and good types will start not hiring him for jobs...

I think the simplest way to deal with torture is to just do it as an Intimidate check with circumstance modifiers for the torture, and maybe the possibility of doing Dazzling Display with the torture implements, or alternately do it as Profession Torturer or Performance Dominatrix and let that work to loosen someone's tongue the same as Intimidate, with nice bonuses for masterwork tools or instruments.

In a world of magic, the idea of physical torture seems a bit, I can't think of a good word, like performing delicate surgery with blunt instruments. I guess some torturers might not have access to magic, and there are those who are dedicated sadists, but imagines that anyone in a fantasy campaign world who devotes a lot of time and effort to getting information out of people would have some neater and more reliable ways of doing it than pincers and pliers.

In a world of magic, the idea of physical torture seems a bit, I can't think of a good word, like performing delicate surgery with blunt instruments. I guess some torturers might not have access to magic, and there are those who are dedicated sadists, but imagines that anyone in a fantasy campaign world who devotes a lot of time and effort to getting information out of people would have some neater and more reliable ways of doing it than pincers and pliers.

It's a status symbol. An evil overlord looks more bad-ass if he has a dedicated torturer on the payroll, the same as he wants his shiny black boots made by his personal cobbler, who gets to put "By Appointment to his Dread Majesty" on his shop window.

Yeah, you can have a wizard throw Fabricate and get enough Doc Martens to shoe your legions of terror, and they're every bit as good as the ones hand-made by the old cobbler, except they don't have that status symbol attached to them. Which means they're not as good.

Besides, having a real torturer on payroll means you get a Diplomacy bonus when dealing with fellow evil overlords, and an Intimidate bonus for those who aren't. Yeah, if you really want to answers and you want them now, you have your staff Wicked Enchantress throw a Charm or Dominate person and skip to the chase, or even a Modify Memory to give memories of horrific tortures, and everyone will understand when you'll do this. But when the objective is psychological warfare? Nothing beats good old-fashioned torture.

It's a status symbol. An evil overlord looks more bad-ass if he has a dedicated torturer on the payroll.

Exactly. And I want to see how much loyalty the characters have to their organization when faced with potentially career crippling effects from the hands of this devious prison warden.

I'm playing tonight, I'll let you know how it went!

I think the answer from a base rules point of view is that this would be covered with an intimidate check by the torturer. The DC of the check would be against a roll from the PC of 1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear (with characters who are immune to fear automatically passing the check). If successful the characters would answer questions as if friendly to the torturer for the duration of the intimidate.

I guess I would role-play this out as a torture session and if the check was successful the character started talking... and once you start, it is hard to stop. Maybe give them will saves to stop the duration or something. I might even take the players to another room and do this part so no one knows if anyone else broke or if they did what they said. That could lead to some interesting role playing if only one was lead away, he swears he didn't break and yet the bad guys seem to know things they shouldn't. Or maybe someone breaks and they have to RP out how that character deals with the feelings of guilt.

However, unless you have some good role-players this might not make for a very satisfying session and some of the other options presented might be a lot more fun.

Or you could just have them get sprung or escape just prior to the torture session.

Sean Mahoney

Meh.. my players are boring.. they told him more or less what he wanted to knew just by the mention of torture. They also did manage to escape the prison, retrieve their gear and steal back the item he (by means of interrogation) discovered before the characters.

Or maybe I'm just too kind to my players ;)

Had fun though :)

Meh.. my players are boring.. they told him more or less what he wanted to knew just by the mention of torture. They also did manage to escape the prison, retrieve their gear and steal back the item he (by means of interrogation) discovered before the characters.

Or maybe I'm just too kind to my players ;)

Had fun though :)

Sounds like Adventurers to me. They're all bravado until the situation starts getting uncomfortable, at which point they promptly fold to save their own hides.

I think to be effectively role played and not use a basic skill test of soem sort requires a very specific thing:

Your players realizing that the longer they dont talk the more maimed their character's will be and that as a DM you wont be magically undoing it all as if it never happened.

Seen a lot of DMs try to roleplay out interrogation or torture or such but the players knew the DM would not actually do anything to the characters or their loved ones that would not be easily undone.

You want the characters to talk. make it clear to the players that this maniac is going to be taking their left eye and it is up to them to fix it afterwards if they dont talk.

-Weylin

You just say the words blood eagle to me and I'll tell you whatever you want to know.

You just say the words blood eagle to me and I'll tell you whatever you want to know.

Guaranteed to get anyone talking, Jade. If i resorted to a skill roll or save that would be a heavy penalty against the victim to even be threatened with it.

Idk, I'm still a fan of the vividly described torture to be role-played out rather than a few dice rolls. I don't think there should be a save versus torture, or that a player should be forced to talk by means of an intimidate check. They will continually lose some aspect of their character until they give up the information, and if by the time that it's gone on too long and I haven't gotten my info, they die by means of that special weapon material (can't remember it's name) that steals your soul when you die, thereby preventing resurrection (unless they get said weapon once the survivors escape). In the event that they say "screw that, I'll just make a new character" I'd respond with "Have fun being 2 levels behind the party".

Sure it's mean, and I'm sure I'll get some people saying that that's "too harsh", and that I'd be a horrible DM for that, but you've never met my players, either. Negative reinforcement is just as strong a motivator as, if not stronger than, positive reinforcement. Give them a large amount of gold and they might do it, threaten to cripple their character and/or their next character, and they will definitely do it. Unless they can think of some other way out of it, plan a daring escape, get Mr. Coldheartedtorturer to feel sympathy and see the error of his ways, ect.

Also, keep in mind that whoever they ratted out will not be very happy with them and will most likely seek retribution, or just exile them at the very least, no matter how good the organization is.

Idk, I'm still a fan of the vividly described torture to be role-played out rather than a few dice rolls. I don't think there should be a save versus torture, or that a player should be forced to talk by means of an intimidate check.

Yeah, that was what I decided as well. Until they told the torturer more or less everything he needed to know without him having to resort to violence

Also, keep in mind that whoever they ratted out will not be very happy with them and will most likely seek retribution, or just exile them at the very least, no matter how good the organization is.

Oh, most definetely. However, as they managed to beat the torturer to the powerful artifact they were sent to retrieve, the Pathfinders are more or less inclined to let them off the hook with a warning not to implicate the Society when caught red-handed.

they die by means of that special weapon material (can't remember it's name) that steals your soul when you die, thereby preventing resurrection

Thinaun. Complete Warrior p. 136.

There was a fan written 3.5 adventure (I think it was called the Steam Spire) which handled torture, imprisonment and forced slavery fairly well just using basic mechanics. Due to abuse and poor conditions, PCs didn't heal damage, so poor performance at a quarry for instance (which was rewarded by a crack of the whip by a guard for instance) ate into the character's reserves of HP bringing him/her closer and closer to death.

Taking 15 points of damage might not worry a mid-level fighter much when he has access to magical healing. 15 points might concern him slightly more if there was no end in sight and he isn't regaining HP.

HP being the currency of the day.

I have found it very hard to get the characters to get into it with any realism; I have squeezed them between stone tablets; drugged them; whipped them; roasted them alive; amputated limbs and they are all of course immune to any of this and refuse to tell anything unto death; they get this blaise; well, whatever happens kind of attitude; sometimes you can get a bit of rise out of them by torturing a loved one npc type; but not much; hopefully your players will interact more with the game than mine have.

Next session, chances are that the PCs will be captured and interrogated by an evil prison warden (they are trying to jailbreak someone). This capture is, btw, a result of the character's reckless actions, it's not a railroad.

Now, telling your player that your character suffered 15 points of damage from the torture rack is no big deal (unless the player is an extraordinarily good role player). He won't give up any information. What I would like to do, even though it somewhat goes against the mantra that the players can control their own characters (unless magically compelled), is to implement some kind of save to see if the character is able to withhold the information.

I know Book of Vile Darkness has some rules on torture, so I will check that out later.

Have anyone else used this in their games? How did the players react?

Just for the disclaimer, we are all adults and not offended by using torture in our games, as long as it contributes to the story, and not simply just there for the gore (SAW 3 and later, I'm looking at you).

I have found it very hard to get the characters to get into it with any realism; I have squeezed them between stone tablets; drugged them; whipped them; roasted them alive; amputated limbs and they are all of course immune to any of this and refuse to tell anything unto death; they get this blaise; well, whatever happens kind of attitude; sometimes you can get a bit of rise out of them by torturing a loved one npc type; but not much; hopefully your players will interact more with the game than mine have.

That's why when it came up, my past game masters forced skill rolls or saves if you were not roleplaing it well. Usually with the torturer's skill check setting the DC for the save or just using 10+Skill Level (15+Skill if the torurer wwas very well prepared).

It is the same as dealing with social tests. If your character doesnt have any ranks in the relevent skills it doesnt matter how good you as the player are, you probably wont rally the town to fight the bandits. You roleplay it out and then make your check in our games usually. THis also means if the player is not very good at oration but his character is that he has to at least try the speech (he cant just default to a skill check) and then gets to roll his Skill Check.

-Weylin

oh, also you should make note that you can't trust what a person says at the threat of torture; they could be saying just anything to get out of torture. After a few hours of torture, their words may be of some value ;P

oh, also you should make note that you can't trust what a person says at the threat of torture; they could be saying just anything to get out of torture. After a few hours of torture, their words may be of some value ;P

Not to mention having an allied cleric and wizard nearby to verify what they say...and to keep them alive longer than usual.

-Weylin

You just say the words blood eagle to me and I'll tell you whatever you want to know.

We have Orkadian grogs in our Ars Magica saga who have actually taken experience in performing such acts... sure, they used skraelings, but still, they're not nice people. I think that's why my magus likes having them defending him.

-Ben.

Hunterofthedusk wrote:

Idk, I'm still a fan of the vividly described torture to be role-played out rather than a few dice rolls. I don't think there should be a save versus torture, or that a player should be forced to talk by means of an intimidate check.

Yeah, that was what I decided as well. Until they told the torturer more or less everything he needed to know without him having to resort to violence

Hunterofthedusk wrote:

Also, keep in mind that whoever they ratted out will not be very happy with them and will most likely seek retribution, or just exile them at the very least, no matter how good the organization is.

Oh, most definetely. However, as they managed to beat the torturer to the powerful artifact they were sent to retrieve, the Pathfinders are more or less inclined to let them off the hook with a warning not to implicate the Society when caught red-handed.

Did you wind up picking up KQ 11? Even if they never did the torture, I hope you found some stuff in there you liked.

I have squeezed them between stone tablets; drugged them; whipped them; roasted them alive; amputated limbs

This thread is about DnD, not how you treat your co-workers.

Did you wind up picking up KQ 11? Even if they never did the torture, I hope you found some stuff in there you liked.

I sure did. Haven't had the chance to read anything else in it though. An NPC was tortured though. In hindsight, maybe I should have tortured one of the characters anyway, even though they told him the truth.

There is always Thog's Method ...

There is always Thog's Method ...

Ah but even Elan's twin Nale was not that barbaric I think few would be.

Hiya.

Maybe a bit late in the game here, but I'd go the opposite way. I'd let the players know that there is a total of 2,000xp (or whatever) up for grabs for those that spill their guts. Amounts dolled out depending on importance, as decided by me.

Y'see...I figure 'evil-bad-not-nice' aligned PC's would be much more inclined to just roll over on their ideals and beliefs to save themselves. But hero types are notorious for holding out 'for ever' because of their pesky "ideals". The xp bonus plays on this idea; the 'evil/neutral' types would say "To heck with this! I want the XP!"...while the 'good' types would say "Never! I'll never talk!".

Of course, based on the characters alignment and the players RPing of the situation, I'd award/penalize xp at the end of the session accordingly. So, if a good PC just up n' caved, he'd take a nasty xp hit...more than the xp he gained from the information. Likewise, an evil PC that held out for no apparent reason (in-character, plot, story, etc.) would take a hit.

When this has come up in games i played in it was usually done as:

Profession: Torturer (Int-Based) vs. Will Save.
Every level by which the torturer beat the subject Will Save imposed a point of Wisdom Damage. When the subject reaches 0 Wisdom they break. After that other skills can come into play for brainwashing and such.

-Weylin

Do skill ranks scale well with Will saves though, or will the skill eventually be so high that even a Wizard with a Wisdom of 18 has no hope of competing with such a roll?

Example: Level 20... a Wizard's Save is 12 + 4 from Wisdom for 16. A Torturer who's level 20 will have 20 Ranks + 3 + Int or Char bonus for well over 20 before the roll. That's not even taking skill focus into consideration.

Weylin wrote:

When this has come up in games i played in it was usually done as:

Profession: Torturer (Int-Based) vs. Will Save.
Every level by which the torturer beat the subject Will Save imposed a point of Wisdom Damage. When the subject reaches 0 Wisdom they break. After that other skills can come into play for brainwashing and such.

-Weylin

Do skill ranks scale well with Will saves though, or will the skill eventually be so high that even a Wizard with a Wisdom of 18 has no hope of competing with such a roll?

Example: Level 20... a Wizard's Save is 12 + 4 from Wisdom for 16. A Torturer who's level 20 will have 20 Ranks + 3 + Int or Char bonus for well over 20 before the roll. That's not even taking skill focus into consideration.

Except that when someone is in a torture situation, a skilled "interrigator" will eventualy break even the strongest will.