What builds have started frustrating you?

In my game (Shackled City played online, from 3.5->PF Beta->PF Final), I've got one player who, completely legally, has been driving me bonkers. They're 12th level at this point, and when I really think about it, it's not that bad, but for some reason it drives me mad.

The build is this: A druid, wild shaped into a Huge Earth Elemental, weilding a (Huge sized) greatclub, with Vital Strike. Ends up dealing 6d8+something big every time he hits.

Worse, he keeps threatening to cast Shillelagh on his club, making the base damage 6d8--Vital Strike would then be 12d8 (or 18d8 on a critical). I'm not looking forward to his getting the 2nd feat on the tree either.

So what have you seen that just drives you insane?

I doubt that's really that much worse than two attacks at 3d8+(something big).

However, I really doubt shillelagh was intended to be cast on huge creatures' clubs. It should probably just be something like "+1d6 base damage"; effective size increases in weapons get pretty crazy eventually.

His club shouldn't increase in size when he wild shapes, it should merge into his body or remain the same size. If he actually owns a Huge club, it should deal 3d6+Str damage (6d6 with shillelagh).

If he really wants a 12th level character to walk around with a non-magical weapon for most of the day, allow him his choice. It's a very specific build with a few big downsides.

Touch AC anyone?

Touch AC anyone?

Not to mention flanking. My approach as a DM would be hordes of low-level monsters.

I wouldn't allow an earth elemental to use hand-held weapons at all; the picture in the Monster Manual doesn't have any thumbs, does it?

I wouldn't allow an earth elemental to use hand-held weapons at all; the picture in the Monster Manual doesn't have any thumbs, does it?

It does have that one finger like extension. That is all it would need. I would like to know where he is hiding this club when he is not in Monster form.

hogarth wrote:

I wouldn't allow an earth elemental to use hand-held weapons at all; the picture in the Monster Manual doesn't have any thumbs, does it?

It does have that one finger like extension. That is all it would need. I would like to know where he is hiding this club when he is not in Monster form.

I'd like to see how well you can hit someone with a club whilst holding it with one finger. :-)

Personally, I thought those were just random spiky bits. Now armor + armor spikes, that might work, IMO.

His club shouldn't increase in size when he wild shapes, it should merge into his body or remain the same size. If he actually owns a Huge club, it should deal 3d6+Str damage (6d6 with shillelagh).

Jal Dorak is correct, the club should not change size, but meld into the druids form.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.

However, I have the club dealing only 2d6, not 3d6. (1d6 Medium -> 1d8 Large -> 2d6 Huge) if you meant a greatclub, he'd be dealing 4d6 (1d10 Medium -> 2d8 Large -> 4d6 Huge)

It's worth noting though that a Huge Earth elemental has slam natural attack, for 2d10+STR, so the lack of a club (or it's reduction in damage) may not slow him down all that much.

As for Shillelagh, the Polymorph subschool description in the magic chapter continues with:

While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.

Since Shillelagh requires a Divine Focus (for druids, a sprig of Holly) he'll be incapable of casting it as an Elemental, unless he prepares it ahead of time or leaves a stash of holly somewhere other than on his person (with another party member would be the obvious choice).

If he does have a huge club, and he drops it ahead of time along with a supply of holly, after using wild shape to change into a Huge elemental, he could cast it on the club, increasing it's base damage to 4d6+1 (2d6 huge -> 2d8 gigantic -> 4d6 colossal). Thankfully, shillelagh cannot be cast on a Greatclub, only on a club or quarterstaff.

This does seem like a particularly nice combo, but there are some very good ways to short circuit it if it's getting abusive, some of which others have mentioned.

1> Opponents that have touch attacks, his touch AC has got to be down around 5 or 6 with the size penalties. Incorporeal creatures, spell casters, plenty of options here.

2> Since he has to carry around a huge club (at least, if he wants to use it while wildshaped) I'd question the amount of weight involved. There aren't any hard and fast rules for scaling up weapons, but assuming large weapons are 2x the size of medium weapons, and huge weapons are roughly 2x the size of large weapons, you're looking at somewhere around 64x the base weight (volume, and thus weight, is cubic, so an object 4x the size in every dimension would have 4x4x4=64 times the mass) Careful with this one, inject too much realism into the game and you may find most large creatures suddenly collapsing under the weight of their own equipment.

3> Confined quarters. He can't change into a huge earth elemental, if there's just not enough room to grow.

Worse, he keeps threatening to cast Shillelagh on his club, making the base damage 6d8--Vital Strike would then be 12d8 (or 18d8 on a critical).

Why it adds only +50% on a crit? The club has x2 crit? Did something change at PFbeta/final?

Steev42 wrote:

Worse, he keeps threatening to cast Shillelagh on his club, making the base damage 6d8--Vital Strike would then be 12d8 (or 18d8 on a critical).

Why it adds only +50% on a crit? The club has x2 crit? Did something change at PFbeta/final?

Bonus damage dice are not multiplied on a critical.

Steev42 wrote:

Worse, he keeps threatening to cast Shillelagh on his club, making the base damage 6d8--Vital Strike would then be 12d8 (or 18d8 on a critical).

Why it adds only +50% on a crit? The club has x2 crit? Did something change at PFbeta/final?

Because a Crit doesn't increase the Vital Strike damage, which accounts for 6d8 of that damage.

if you meant a greatclub, he'd be dealing 4d6 (1d10 Medium -> 2d8 Large -> 4d6 Huge)

Actually, 2d8 turns into 3d8. You can see it in the equipment chart (from medium to large for 2d8 is 3d8), and in the SRD (pathfinder bestiary isn't out yet), the "Improving Monsters" section has Old Damage: 2d8, New Damage: 3d8.

So a Huge Greatclub is 3d8 damage. 6d8 with Vital strike.

What's scary, is that this multiplies each time he picks up a new Vital Strike feat. Granted, the Druid is limited to 15 BAB, so he'll only get the chance at Improved Vital Strike, but that's still 9d8 base damage.

Then again, if he goes with a Shillelagh on a Huge club (2d6), it'll have a base of 4d6 before Vital strike. 8d6 with Vital Strike, and 12d6 with Improved Vital Strike.

Thank goodness that doesn't all get multiplied on a crit too (just the 4d6, ha!).

@Broddigan: I stand corrected on the damage. I was going by the small size as the base damage for a greatclub.

Another point of interest, it is the DM's decision whether you lsoe a class feature or not when you polymorph (in the subschool description) which could include weapon proficiencies. He would obviously need proficiency with greatclubs anyway as they are martial.

So assuming he is using an oversized weapon without proficiency, it would be at least -8 to hit (-6 with a feat for oversized weapons).

Actually, 2d8 turns into 3d8. You can see it in the equipment chart (from medium to large for 2d8 is 3d8), and in the SRD (pathfinder bestiary isn't out yet), the "Improving Monsters" section has Old Damage: 2d8, New Damage: 3d8.

So a Huge Greatclub is 3d8 damage. 6d8 with Vital strike.

Thanks, I'm still stuck in 3.5 mode sometimes, so I just evaluated 2d8 going up a size category as equivalent to double the value for 1d8.

As for Shillelagh, the Polymorph subschool description in the magic chapter continues with:

Magic, PRD wrote:

While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.

Since Shillelagh requires a Divine Focus (for druids, a sprig of Holly) he'll be incapable of casting it as an Elemental, unless he prepares it ahead of time or leaves a stash of holly somewhere other than on his person (with another party member would be the obvious choice).

...I thought I was going to be arguing a point here (divine focus is not a material component), but reading it again I see that you're absolutely correct (holly would otherwise merge during polymorph).

So now, I'm just not sure what the quoted bit has to do with anything. :)

All he has to do is get Natural Spell and he can cast Shillelagh.

Natural Spell - final
You can cast spells even while in a form that cannot normally cast spells.

Prerequisites: Wis 13, wild shape class feature.

Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while using wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.

You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while using wild shape.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

My question is from the above quoted paragraph. What spells do not cause your equipment to meld into your body or give you that choice?

Alter Self?

lostpike wrote:

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

My question is from the above quoted paragraph. What spells do not cause your equipment to meld into your body or give you that choice?

Alter Self, Giant Form I & II, Polymorph and Greater Polymorph (for any non-animal, dragon, elemental magical beast, plant or vermin form that is capable of using equipment), and Shapechange

1) Huge Earth Elemental, weilding a (Huge sized) greatclub, with Vital Strike.

2) Shillelagh on his club, making the base damage 6d8--Vital Strike would then be 12d8

1) Where did he get the club? Unless he used a move action to get and drop a Huge size club his Medium sized self carries around, wild shape, then move action to pick up the Huge club, he wouldn't have a Huge club.

2) Shillelagh would make a normal Huge club turn into a Shillelagh improved club, but under no reading of the RAW would it improve the Vital Strike damage. I don't see the chart that was on DMG p26, so it may only be part of the Bestiary?

3) Since Shillelagh requires a Divine Focus

3) He will have Natural Spell I'm sure, this covers DF.

1) Where did he get the club? Unless he used a move action to get and drop a Huge size club his Medium sized self carries around, wild shape, then move action to pick up the Huge club, he wouldn't have a Huge club.

2) Shillelagh would make a normal Huge club turn into a Shillelagh improved club, but under no reading of the RAW would it improve the Vital Strike damage. I don't see the chart that was on DMG p26, so it may only be part of the Bestiary?

1) Considering the new polymorph spells only add to your ability scores, not modify them, the Druid is likely to have a decent Strength score if he wants to be melee built.

On top of that, there are other options... such as the Shrink Item spell (with permanency even).

2) Shillelagh doesn't just add damage, it "deals damage as if it were two size categories larger". So, the base damage is increased.
Vital strike multiplies the base damage, which was increased by two sizes by Shillelagh.
It's pretty straight forward.

.

What could make all this worse though, is as far as I understand it, Enlarge Person would still function if cast after he's wildshaped (you aren't changed into the animal or elemental "type", and so still qualify as a "humanoid" for the spell).
This would further increase the size benefits by one step... ugh.

I mean, the alternative is to have the Druid's type change to animal and then qualify for Animal Growth, etc.

Maybe there needs to be a little more wording to clarify what's allowed after polymorphing. Unless someone can point me to a spot where size modifiers don't stack or something (since elemental shape is modifying the size).

1) Considering the new polymorph spells only add to your ability scores, not modify them, the Druid is likely to have a decent Strength score if he wants to be melee built.

Which means, carrying it around might not be out of the question.

Yeah, if you use a realistic scaling of weight, since there don't seem to be easy guidelines for weapons, then that club is going to weigh 192 lbs. (3 lbs. x 4^3) which is heavy, but not impossible if they have a high strength (or can buff themselves to having a high strength). And, like you said, there are always options like Shrink item.

What could make all this worse though, is as far as I understand it, Enlarge Person would still function if cast after he's wildshaped (you aren't changed into the animal or elemental "type", and so still qualify as a "humanoid" for the spell).

This would further increase the size benefits by one step... ugh.

This at least won't work in Pathfinder, enlarge person ends with the line "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

I wouldn't allow an earth elemental to use hand-held weapons at all; the picture in the Monster Manual doesn't have any thumbs, does it?

Octopi do just fine without thumbs.

Thumbs -- even fingers -- are not a prerequisite to being able to hold something or use it as a tool.

I've never understood the frustration of GM vs a Player with a certain build.

I have never played the game so that it was GM vs Players, so I guess I am missing something. I've always played it such that the GM and Players work together to tell a fun story.

The only time I have been frustrated was when someone had a great build and played up the weaknesses instead. A guy plays a Druid and we get to level 16 and never once did he shape change. A fighter with high STR and low DEX who wants to be an archer. A wizard with an INT of 12... um hello?

I was frustrated as a player when I built a fighter to be a tripping fool and the GM therefore always used flying critters or oozes or stuff.

So he has a build that is tough. Unless the idea is to kill the PCs, so what?

:)

I've never understood the frustration of GM vs a Player with a certain build.

I have never played the game so that it was GM vs Players, so I guess I am missing something. I've always played it such that the GM and Players work together to tell a fun story.

The only time I have been frustrated was when someone had a great build and played up the weaknesses instead. A guy plays a Druid and we get to level 16 and never once did he shape change. A fighter with high STR and low DEX who wants to be an archer. A wizard with an INT of 12... um hello?

I was frustrated as a player when I built a fighter to be a tripping fool and the GM therefore always used flying critters or oozes or stuff.

So he has a build that is tough. Unless the idea is to kill the PCs, so what?

For me, it was never a matter of DM vs Player frustration with a character or player, it was more a matter of being frustrated with the effect a character or player is having on the other players at the table.

It's no good for anyone when my choices are either A> Throw out something so hard it's blatantly unfair to everyone but the min maxer, or B> Throw out a fight the other players have some reasonable chance of contributing to, only to see the min-maxed character tear it to shreds before anyone else can even get a round in.

Inevitably, either the min-maxer or the rest of the party ends up bored and frustrated.

I think if someone played a druid I would space out the wildshape boosts more.

Druids have much better core combat statistics than sorcerers or wizards already; they should be getting Elemental Body IV later than the wizard, not earlier.

There aren't any hard and fast rules for scaling up weapons, but assuming large weapons are 2x the size of medium weapons, and huge weapons are roughly 2x the size of large weapons, you're looking at somewhere around 64x the base weight (volume, and thus weight, is cubic, so an object 4x the size in every dimension would have 4x4x4=64 times the mass) Careful with this one, inject too much realism into the game and you may find most large creatures suddenly collapsing under the weight of their own equipment.

Page 143 PF Final.

Reading this, asuming a huge weapon weighs twice as much as a large weapon seem plausible.
Huge Medium Greatclub 32 lb
Huge Club = 12 lb

Since Shillelagh requires a Divine Focus (for druids, a sprig of Holly) he'll be incapable of casting it as an Elemental, unless he prepares it ahead of time or leaves a stash of holly somewhere other than on his person (with another party member would be the obvious choice).

Couldn't he have a holly bush growing out of his head, like cool, spiky hair?

The lack of minor materials and foci seems a minor problem, since most players have been ignoring them for decades, with or without Natural Spell or Eschew Materials. How many DMs required their wizard PCs to kep track of a supply of live spiders? Or ignore the need to find such materials during combat?

[...]So what have you seen that just drives you insane?

I would say when people play builds that are too complicated for them.

So If a ranger has 3 favored enemy with +2, +4, +4 and 3 favored terrain with +2, +6, +2 the combination of skill bonuses are just endless.
Then we have buff spells and other bonuses from the bard, cleric and others.

If a ranger choose an anmial companion he also have to keep track of his animal and all it's stats.

So what drives me insane? I say:
1) any built that is too complicated
2) A strength based paladin. The Paladin is just too good.
human 20 points: str 16+2, dex 12, con 12, wis 7, int 10, char 14
human 25 points: str 16+2, dex 12, con 14, wis 8, int 10, char 16.

Page 143 PF Final.

"Weight figures are for Medium weapons. A Small weapon weighs half as much, and a Large weapon weighs twice as much."

Reading this, asuming a huge weapon weighs twice as much as a large weapon seem plausible.
Huge Medium Greatclub 32 lb
Huge Club = 12 lb

Thanks, I looked for that in the PRD but for some reason I just missed it.

I will say though, that leads to some really ridiculously silly weights. Going by that, Colossal weapons are only 16x the weight of normal size weapons. A colossal glaive for example (which considering it's reach and the proportions for a medium creature is at least 60 ft. of shaft about 2 ft. thick along the entire length tipped with a metal point the size of a small car) is only 160 lbs.

Zark wrote:

Page 143 PF Final.

"Weight figures are for Medium weapons. A Small weapon weighs half as much, and a Large weapon weighs twice as much."

Reading this, asuming a huge weapon weighs twice as much as a large weapon seem plausible.
Huge Medium Greatclub 32 lb
Huge Club = 12 lb

I will say though, that leads to some really ridiculously silly weights.

True, but this is just a game. Not reality

Brodiggan Gale wrote:

Zark wrote:

Page 143 PF Final.

"Weight figures are for Medium weapons. A Small weapon weighs half as much, and a Large weapon weighs twice as much."

Reading this, asuming a huge weapon weighs twice as much as a large weapon seem plausible.
Huge Medium Greatclub 32 lb
Huge Club = 12 lb

I will say though, that leads to some really ridiculously silly weights.

True, but this is just a game. Not reality

However, Enlarge Person increases weight by x8. So as a human goes from Medium -> Large they are x8, but their weapon is only x2. Its a bit strange, so say the least.

But this was always a weird issue in the rules. For example, a Small creatures gear weighs 1/2 a Medium characters, but their carrying capacity is 3/4 a Medium characters. Thus, given the same amount of appropriately sized equipment, small creatures can carry 25% more stuff than their medium counterpart. That seems strange to me.

However, Enlarge Person increases weight by x8. So as a human goes from Medium -> Large they are x8, but their weapon is only x2. Its a bit strange, so say the least.

But this was always a weird issue in the rules. For example, a Small creatures gear weighs 1/2 a Medium characters, but their carrying capacity is 3/4 a Medium characters. Thus, given the same amount of appropriately sized equipment, small creatures can carry 25% more stuff than their medium counterpart. That seems strange to me.

Well look at an ant's carrying capacity. compared to their weight they can carry an exceptional heavy load. So real life is sometimes stranger than fiction.

Note that as you increase in size, you get a major bonus to your carrying capacity. furthermore, a very stable creature, such as a quadruped or elemental, doubles this amount.

A 20 Str Ogre can carry at least twice as much as a 20 Str human. A 32 Str Cloud Giant can carry at least 8x as much as a 32 Str Human.

But yeah, just use normal physics for the weapons for realism. The x2 weight is just a hard and fast rule for Enlarge...probably most of the 'extra' weight is ectoplasm in metal form, or something. An item permanently made size H should be 64x bigger then a size M item, if they stay in porportion.

==Aelryinth

Wow, didn't expect this kind of a response. (Thanks, Zark, for actually talking about what I was going for). The game isn't GM vs PCs, but I still like to provide challenges, and the affects of this build were surprising at first.

To answer some questions--yes, he has Natural Spell. He's *never* in his humanoid form; he's at a level where he can spend all day long in an altered state. He wood-shaped the club out of some nearby trees while in his altered form, so it's *natural* size is Huge. And since it's not magical, he has no qualms about leaving it behind if need be.

I think most of it was the fact that I wasn't expecting the lethality of vital strike or the other new feats, and this is a matter of adjusting to the changes. Combined with the fact that we started (converted) at a fairly high level, so I wasn't able to adjust slowly, kind of provided a culture shock.

To answer some questions--yes, he has Natural Spell. He's *never* in his humanoid form; he's at a level where he can spend all day long in an altered state. He wood-shaped the club out of some nearby trees while in his altered form, so it's *natural* size is Huge. And since it's not magical, he has no qualms about leaving it behind if need be.

Aha! Right there, in bold. That's your players' Achille's Heel. You need only one simple thing:

This little gem.

In my game (Shackled City played online, from 3.5->PF Beta->PF Final), I've got one player who, completely legally, has been driving me bonkers. They're 12th level at this point, and when I really think about it, it's not that bad, but for some reason it drives me mad.

The build is this: A druid, wild shaped into a Huge Earth Elemental, weilding a (Huge sized) greatclub, with Vital Strike. Ends up dealing 6d8+something big every time he hits.

Worse, he keeps threatening to cast Shillelagh on his club, making the base damage 6d8--Vital Strike would then be 12d8 (or 18d8 on a critical). I'm not looking forward to his getting the 2nd feat on the tree either.

So what have you seen that just drives you insane?

The spell in final does not say anything about Shillelagh working on a greatclub, only clubs and quaterstaffs.

Aha! Right there, in bold. That's your players' Achille's Heel. You need only one simple thing:

This little gem.

You're evil!

I like that...

For me, it was never a matter of DM vs Player frustration with a character or player, it was more a matter of being frustrated with the effect a character or player is having on the other players at the table.

It's no good for anyone when my choices are either A> Throw out something so hard it's blatantly unfair to everyone but the min maxer, or B> Throw out a fight the other players have some reasonable chance of contributing to, only to see the min-maxed character tear it to shreds before anyone else can even get a round in.

Inevitably, either the min-maxer or the rest of the party ends up bored and frustrated.

Couldn't you just throw two or more types of foes at the party, thus the tougher foes focus on the min-maxer, while the mooks focus on the other party members? Everybody gets to contribute, nobody feels like they didn't get to do anything. At least that has been how I've handled it in the past when one character was tougher than the rest of the party.

Couldn't you just throw two or more types of foes at the party, thus the tougher foes focus on the min-maxer, while the mooks focus on the other party members? Everybody gets to contribute, nobody feels like they didn't get to do anything. At least that has been how I've handled it in the past when one character was tougher than the rest of the party.

Sometimes maybe, but inevitably I find myself in a position where, because of positioning, or just an intelligent bad guy, I know that the realistic response for the bad guys _isn't_ going to be matching strong against strong and weak against weak, and it's obvious enough to my players that if I don't go ahead and make the smart move, they'll know I'm pulling punches, which makes it much less fun for everyone. This particularly comes up anytime there's an enemy spellcaster.

Most people don't consider the way optimized characters distort the balance between offense and defense as well. Generally speaking, it's much, much easier and more effective to ramp up your offensive abilities, and much harder/less rewarding to improved your defensive abilities, such as AC. But massively upgrading the parties offense means, to keep fights interesting, I have to look for opponents with defensive abilities to match, and again, because offense scales faster than defense, those opponents tend to have overwhelmingly powerful offensive abilities. Which makes the whole game very swingy, you either win big, or you take serious, serious losses.

This same scaling issue is why high level fights almost always come down to who wins initiative. (Without that scaling though, everything would feel like 4th edition, bland, like you're all on a treadmill going nowhere fast. It's just a problem when it scales too far, or scales unevenly across the party.)

Wow, didn't expect this kind of a response. (Thanks, Zark, for actually talking about what I was going for).

No Problem. It's a bit rude most poster ignor your opening post.

As another addendum, you can't use Enlarge as a poster spell for size increase. The bonuses for being Enlarged are not the same as becoming size L. We can chalk that up to being a low level spell with limitations, but it can also explain why the weapons aren't so heavy...if they were, the measley +2 Str you get wouldn't be enough to use them!

By the way, did they change things so Wildshaping could be dispelled? I'd also be amused if some enemy tried Banishment on him, and he got sent 'home' to the Elemental Plane of Earth, and had to find a way to get back.

Lastly, have you compared the damage this druid does against a potentially Enlarged Fighter of the same level? The Fighter should have a str of 26 or so, a +4 weapon, and Improved Vital Strike. Weapon Training means he can power attack for 3/+6 basically without a penalty, and Spec bonuses contribute another +4/+6. Using a Greatsword, you'd have something like:

(3-18 +6 Spec, +3 Weapon Training)x3, +4 Sword;+12 Str. Yes, that's right...weapon training and Spec bonuses STACK with Improved Vital Strike (go read the feat!) So the Fighter can deal out 9-54 +43 damage as a standard action.

If it was 'just' Vital Strike, it'd be 6-36 +34.
If it was a longsword, it'd be base 2-24, +30 with just Vital Strike.

In one more level, it's x4.

So, nah, I'm not impressed by the Druid all that much. This isn't showcasing the power of a feat...it's showing the power of a Polymorphed Form. The Fighter could do that trick, too, if need be.

==Aelryinth

By the way, did they change things so Wildshaping could be dispelled? I'd also be amused if some enemy tried Banishment on him, and he got sent 'home' to the Elemental Plane of Earth, and had to find a way to get back.

I don't think this would work, especially if the type no longer changes.

Neither do I, but it would be damn funny if it did, no?

==Aelryinth

I'm just trying to figure out where he's adventuring where he can get away with being HUGE all the time. I know we get outdoor adventures but our group spends a good third or more of it's time indoors or in dungeons. Huge size would fill even large rooms and you have to squeeze to get through most 10' hallways.

I'm just trying to figure out where he's adventuring where he can get away with being HUGE all the time. I know we get outdoor adventures but our group spends a good third or more of it's time indoors or in dungeons. Huge size would fill even large rooms and you have to squeeze to get through most 10' hallways.

If he's doing earth elemental though he can be part in part out of the wall.

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

I'm just trying to figure out where he's adventuring where he can get away with being HUGE all the time. I know we get outdoor adventures but our group spends a good third or more of it's time indoors or in dungeons. Huge size would fill even large rooms and you have to squeeze to get through most 10' hallways.

If he's doing earth elemental though he can be part in part out of the wall.

I thought that the earth elemental can only be a part of unworked material. If he memerges from a cobbled street then he'll sure have the stones on his upper half, but they'll certainly be missing on the place from which he emerged. Starting to shift stones that should normally be a wall? Whee... we have a collapse ^^

I think if someone played a druid I would space out the wildshape boosts more.

Druids have much better core combat statistics than sorcerers or wizards already; they should be getting Elemental Body IV later than the wizard, not earlier.

I don't allow it at all. You can use spells to do those things. If you really, really want to tempt my wrath.

I'm working on what I think is a pretty good substitute to wild shape for Druids... but I am sadly lacking a proper 20th level capstone.

He can't be part in/out of a wall...he's either vulnerable or he's not. If you say spacewise, might be allowable...if the DM is really lenient. It certainly doesn't protect him...either he's completely inside the stone or he's not, and if not, he's completely vulnerable. Earthgliding doesn't grant cover bonuses.

==Aelryinth