Any thoughts on the witch vs spellbook question. If not I am just going to keep buying scrolls so all good. [/ooc]
Part of why I don't like witches more than I do is that mechanic to have to burn scrolls to learn spells. Its part of the core class. Some say its a balance thing but I am not sure why that has to be.
I have one witch on the boards and that game seems to have recently died. She learned very few spells outside of those you get for leveling up.
Alchemist can learn spells from wizards, but not the other way around. Strange mechanics all around.
Honestly I am fine with mostly just getting what I get but it is going to make it hard to craft items. I will either need to limit myself to what I need for items or not go the wonders item creation rout. Guess I need to make that decision tonight.
Storing your spells in your Familiar does make it strange. In this case I'm going to rule that a page from a spell book functions the same as a scroll. So you can take those spells that are on your spell list.
Do look at getting Blood transcription though. You can pick up a lot of spells that way. I'm sure the party will understand. :)
Olimpia, do you want to keep the pistol lent to you or will you return that?
JJ: I'm assuming you're taking the +1 double-barreled pistol? Is the MW double-barreled pistol available?
If you want it, I can deal with a masterwork one. After all, I have the +1 Inferno Pistol for my fighting needs now. Otherwise, I already desired the Bandoleer and some bullets.
Olympia wants the +1 ring of protection as her number one pick.
After that she would like the +1 musket.
And then she will take a double barreled pistol if there is one remaining.
If Dialana isn't burning pages Figgy would look at the spellbook as well to copy any spells he can use.
Figgy may as well copy the spells from the spell book into his formula book before Dilana starts ripping pages out.
Sorry all. I'm too busy today to update. It may be slow the next few days as well. I'll let you know tomorrow.
The amount of things that I can make with Craft Tech items is HUGE!
Seems I need permission to view your tech guide Figgy. I am interested. Now all we need is some down time. :)
I sent Springy off to fix it so you shouldn't need permission now.
Yep. Working fine. Thanks.
How are we doing on batteries in the party? Unsure how many we have and who is carrying them.
Figgy has 2 more, but now I can make them.
I'm looking forward to some downtime for crafting, though I need some money first to craft into stuff!
Well once you guys figure out what you are taking the rest can be sold via the Mysterious GM ways
I think this is going to be a big crafting group. Thats cool.
Figgy you should do what you want with the spellbook and then I will do my little rituals when you are done.
Updated to level 5.
Yep. Working fine. Thanks.
How are we doing on batteries in the party? Unsure how many we have and who is carrying them.
Figgy got 2, I've got 9 full batteries and 1 drained one because I used it on my tech gun. Batteries aren't the only thing we need to worry about though. We also need nanite canisters for more mundane tech I believe.
So here is the loot list, broken down a little, with a little more detail, and with a few recommendations. Unsure what if anything Raktar needs. Does he want a MW chain shirt to sleep in?
Loot - Number - total sell Value - Recommendation
Sell?
Hide armor - 2 - 15gp - sell
Rapier - 2 - 20 - sell
Axe muskets - 2 - 1600 - sell
MW Chain shirt - 1 - 125gp - sell one
Keep?
MW Chain shirt - 125gp - keep one for Roga and maybe one for Raktar?
+1 Mithral shirt - 1050gp - JJ needs this
MW Double barreled pistol - 2 - 2050 - Keep Roga and Dilana
Spell component pouch - Dilana. Good to have an extra. These can be sundered.
+1 Musket - - 1900 - Olimpia
+1 Double barreled pistol - 2025 - JJ
+1 Ring of protection - 1000 Olimpia (other melee types have one)
Beneficial Bandoleer - - 750 - JJ
Handy Haversack - 1000- Figgy
Spellbook - First Figgy, then Dilana, then sell what is left.
Bullets and Black Powder - 6 each for JJ, Olimpia and Dilana.
Mage shots* (electricity, 2) - JJ
Mage shots* (fire, 2) - JJ
Alchemical cartridges(paper) - 37 total - 6 each to Olimpia and Dilana and Roga. JJ gets 19.
Wand of Magic missile (CL7. 10 charges) - 525 - Dilana can use with UMD or we can sell it. Only sells for 525. Olimpia could also maybe use it with UMD.
Silverdisks - 37.
Gold - 243.
Silver 617.
Again, this is just me thinking and trying to get us to pick who is carrying what. Please add your thoughts and propose changes.
Not that Figgy is complaining but why the backpack to Figgy?
Figgy took the following Spells: Bullet Shield, and fly, the rest are your Dilana
I don't want the wand. There are more effective things I can do without a roll even if I am out of spells.
If there is a working gun Dilana will take it. Hitting against touch, even untrained, might be of use.
Figgy could use the wand with UMD as well but like Dilana said I have other things I could do.
Enable permission please.
Also, I can accept the things as you listed Olimpia, but I feel as if I'm making off with all the good things. If no one objects, I'll take them. But still, I'd hate to be greedy.
I'm away from home for the next 10 or so days. Still have access to a computer, and I bought my books with me to sunny Waikanae, so updating will be nearly as regular as always. Depending on what I'm doing that day.
Loot stuff:
Haversack - we could all use it but I figured Figgy was carrying a lot of stuff and had a relatively low strength so it would benefit him the most. Others might want you to carry stuff in it of course. But from my point of view its most valuable to you.
Wand. Figgy actually has the best UMD for now. Later Olimpia will pump her skill in that. So either Figgy keep it or sell it. While its auto hit, with our UMDs where they are its less than 40% chance to activate it for the best of us.
Other stuff - This was a bunch of gunslingers so JJ makes out. Next time it might be arcane stuff or rogue stuff or divine stuff. You can throw your old armor in the to be sold pile to increase the party wealth and even take less gold if you want. You could also give away those mage shots if you don't think you will use them. Or sell them. They are cool, but don't do more damage unless the person fails their save. They just replace damage type. Personally I think you should have them and save them for when something is vulnerable to that energy type.
I'm Ok with the loot distribution.
Dilana: do you want the MW double-barreled pistol?
I have a regular (single-barrel) MW pistol.
Or you can the take the single and I'll keep the double; up to you.
I only see Roga as using as an 'opener' before he closes in to melee.
Let me know so I can update my sheet.
Single. Double is the better gun so you should take it. It would be very rare that I would shoot it but I like the idea of carrying it and being like everyone else around.
You can shoot both barrels at once can you? Better opener.
Well, since there has been plenty of time to object, I'll update my stats to fit the items and give back the ones to resell. JJ gonna keep his original pistol though. Sentimental reasons and all that, you know?
Adding: +1 Mithral chain shirt, +1 Double Barrel Pistol, Beneficial Bandoleer, Bullets and Powder, Mage Shots, and Alchemical Cartridges.
To the Selling Pile: regular Mithril Chain Shirt.
Just a heads up: I am going to change my last level from Rogue to Magus. Likely a one level dip. Will change a few things - Mostly Olimpia will have a caster level and a spell book. That will put magic missile on her list. So if its ok with the group she will keep the wand of magic missiles.
There is some synergy with this dip - it not only provides her a caster level but also provides two feats she needs - Dodge an Combat Expertise. The +1 enhancement to as a swift to her weapon is a bonus that helps make up for her loss of a d6 of sneak attack.
Just a heads up: I am going to change my last level from Rogue to Magus. Likely a one level dip. Will change a few things - Mostly Olimpia will have a caster level and a spell book. That will put magic missile on her list. So if its ok with the group she will keep the wand of magic missiles.
There is some synergy with this dip - it not only provides her a caster level but also provides two feats she needs - Dodge an Combat Expertise. The +1 enhancement to as a swift to her weapon is a bonus that helps make up for her loss of a d6 of sneak attack.
To each their own but this doesn't make any sense other than for a purely mechanical purpose.
The same as Olimpia with a wakisashi. I get that it makes sense from a mechanical point of view but eastern weapons in iron Gods just don't mix.
You did post this to obtain feedback, right?
Roga does make a solid point, why would Olimpia take a dip in Magus? We don't know a ton about her quite yet but it could fit her back story since she is just awakening and magic is always interesting.
I certainly welcome feedback. I always post details of my leveling when I level and it seemed reasonable to let everyone know I was thinking about making some changes.
And yes, it does seem more mechanical right now. She is somewhat new to the world and is learning more about who she wants to become.
Here are some of my thoughts on the matter. First I have played a lot of rogues and have never dipped into another class with any of them. And while I seem to be contributing in and out of combat, this archetype is not the strongest. So I am looking for an edge. Having a caster level and a small number of spells she can cast would give her that edge. I could get the basics of what I want. The specific archeype she is looking to take gives her some feats she needs as well. Its complicated but rogues need to sneak attack. This provides three paths to help do that - spells like Vanish to be able to attack from stealth, Spring Attack to move into flanks better (the archeytpe provides Dodge, which is the first feat in the spring attack chain, and other chains that help with sneak attack), and the combat expertise feat which she will need for some other tricks (Like dirty trick) which she does not qualify for in general.
Out of time for now. More thoughts are certainly welcome. I had also though about a level of Swashbuckler. Better BAB there...
Its funny I run a Magus in another game and every time I think about dipping I worry about what I am giving up. One thing to consider is that a Magus is not really a magus at first level, spell strike comes in a 2nd level, so to be all that effective you would need to dip two levels. Not giving a judgement of leveling for mechanical reason as we have all done it form time to time.
In fact, after some time in the woods, I am going to dip my magus in ranger for favored enemy giants. Mostly to contract the -2 penalty from spell combat spell strike but also because the flavor would make sense after living in the woods for a bit.
Thinking about it, I have only ever dipped one time, and that is with my most recent PFS character who is a Sacred Fist Warpriest that dipped 2 levels of monk.
In general I am not in favor of dipping a full caster class. It seems less an issue with fighters or rogues.
Here is what all she gets with the dip of Spire Defender Magus:
Weapon Proficiency - one handed martial weapons + one one handed exotic melee weapon with trip or disarm
Arcane pool: swift +1 enchantments (includes making a +1 weapon +2, shocking, flaming, frost, or keen)
Spell Combat (Cast and attack in a single round)
Two bonus feats: Dodge and Combat Expertise (do not have to meet the pre-requs) This sets up Gang Up and Dirty Tricks.
Spells: 3 zero level and 2 first level spells per day. Plus wand use, plus potential pearl of power use. And one of the zero level spells can be used to touch attack, sneak attack unlimited times a day.
Spellbook with some free spells
Good (+2) Fort and Reflex Saves
Class skills to include Fly, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge Planes, Ride, and Spellcraft
She looses, or at least delays her Rogues Edge, a d6 sneak attack, and perhaps most importantly 1 BAB
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm assuming that you totally discarded the 'story' aspect of your dip and are purely concentrated on the mechanical aspect.
How can you justify a story aspect of dipping to a caster that needs to study to have learned magic and have a spellbook?
Moreover, doesn't a Spire Defender have to be associated with Mordant Spire?
Not my game but the only dips I ever allow are those that make 'story sense'. We are telling a story here, right? This is not just a strategy game where the most optimized character wins, right?
Sorry but I can't get past the story aspect so I am not the best suited to provide mechanical comments on your proposed dip.
I could come up with a half dozen story arcs to support an android quickly picking up magic. Easier than with most classes since much of he learning is programming anyway. But I double you would be happy with any of them.
I find it a little strange that a Kellid barbarian uses a gun, but not so much as to spoil the story. I think of Kellids as a tech fearing people. No?
That said, I feel strongly that this is our story. If others feel strongly that I should not dip, its not that big of deal to me. Would dipping into fighter or swashbuckler be better?
I could come up with a half dozen story arcs to support an android quickly picking up magic. Easier than with most classes since much of he learning is programming anyway. But I double you would be happy with any of them.
You don't need to please me at all.
Still, I wouldn't mind reading about your story arcs as I'm always trying to pick up things from different players.
I find it a little strange that a Kellid barbarian uses a gun, but not so much as to spoil the story. I think of Kellids as a tech fearing people. No?
You are right about barbarians normally hating technology, specifically the Ghost Wolves, a tribe to which Roga was born into.
That being said, there's a barbarian archetype that supports barbarians using guns.
There's also a story that supports that choice for my particular PC. It may not be a good story but it does provide a justification for Roga using a gun.
That said, I feel strongly that this is our story. If others feel strongly that I should not dip, its not that big of deal to me. Would dipping into fighter or swashbuckler be better?
Since you keep asking, I will keep answering. If at any time, I become too disruptive for you (or anyone else), please let me know and I will refrain from providing further feedback.
I think dipping into a fighter is much more reasonable for this case. A swashbuckler to me also implies a certain fighting style that may not easily picked up without formal training or a mentor. However, that is certainly a lot easier to explain than would a caster who needs to study a spellbook.
Lets see what the GM has to say for in put we have said our piece, over all it is your character Olimpia and you get to make the choices. I can also see how maybe it was programmed into you earlier and is just coming out.
Our GM has already OKed the dip.
Then dip away my friend, dip away, just be careful not to slip while you dip
when I dip you dip we dip
Full disclosure:
I was going to post the whole refrain but I realized it is actually dirty.
I also may have pointed out that I am old.
I had the same thought, never know what people will take offense too
Back in the old days of 3.0 & 3.5 I was very bad at dipping into other classes. Something I've mainly stopped since I started playing Pathfinder.
My live group has a player that is still doing this, and badly. Pick this from this class, and that from that class, trying to make some complicated creation and ending up with a mess. Then sulking because his character can't do anything.
I did say at the recruitment that Iron gods characters often go in unexpected direction.
In the end how someone plays their character is up to them, if Olimpia feels that constant exposure to combat, and magic has opened her to new possibilities then I'm fine with it. I know it runs the risk of min-maxing but I don't think one level is going to make a character too much of a monster.
I know that Spire defender is an Elf only Archetype, and only in a particular area, while Olimpia is taking the archetype I'm ruling that it's not exactly the same. A close quarters combatant is something that I feel fits with what adventurers face a lot of in Numeria.
And Androids are pretty much blank slates waiting to be given a role and purpose. :)
I'm not a big fan of dips in general, given the work that Paizo has put into making the base classes more attractive to stay in.
That being said, rogue isn't one of those classes. Unchained is less bad, but rogues generally don't do much that another class doesn't do better.
Magus is an odd choice of dip in this circumstance, given that your 1st level spells at caster level 1 are going to be pretty weak now we're all 5th level. Spell combat helps a little with that, but then you're already falling behind on your BAB so more penalties aren't a great thing.
It shores up your saves, granted, and the archetype gets you two feats that probably aren't worth wasting your normal feat choices on, which is nice. The ability to further enhance your blade is OK, but bear in mind you can only use it on one weapon at a time (which may or may not impact your TWF).
At the end of the day Olimpia, it's your character, and none of us (other than the GM) can dictate what you do with her. So long as your happy mechanically and you can make the dip make sense within the story we're telling, then go for it.
Sorry folks, it turns out my feeling extremely tired and sore is due to my being very sick. Spent most of the day curled in a ball in bed, and just got up now to throw up what little was inside me. Feeling a lot better for that and hope to be back to normal tomorrow.
Get well soon!
Yikes! Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Still not feeling good at all folks. Sorry, but another day away for me.
It's cool, dude. I'm recovering from a cold myself so I feel your pain.