...and people assume that Nikeisha and Hack bickering won't keep them all awake? Oh, poor fools. Poor, unsleeping fools.
Lol!
...and people assume that Nikeisha and Hack bickering won't keep them all awake? Oh, poor fools. Poor, unsleeping fools.
Literal LOL! Hahahaha! So that's when we'll be attacked of course, and everybody dies because of the two bickering fools! :o
I expect you two will likely kill each other, or have sex. Either way, we won't get much sleep.
...the first is probably more likely right now.
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If they do either, I hope they take it further from camp... :P
I'm surprised no one came up with the much more likely third option of killing each other while having sex. :P
Well, ya beat me to that one!
Good morrow all. You'll have to pardon the wall of text that follows, but... There's an important conversation we need to have, and it relates directly to Long Rests, and defining the term "sleep."
It is my opinion that as far as the game is concerned, a character sleeping is actively, voluntarily accepting both the unconscious and prone conditions. I know that has the potential to be a VERY big deal, though it could be more so if random overnight encounters were regularly on the menu (with my DM style, if there's an encounter during a long rest period, it's, almost always, part of the story). Before I started this encounter with you all I did quite a bit of research into what it exactly means, in game terminology, that a character is "sleeping." Which is a voluntary character activity. It also happens to be one of the areas of the game that, while trying to provide verisimilitude, actually makes the fourth wall much more real.
Here's why: When a group sets an order of watch, and says my character will sleep for this many hours, the fourth wall becomes very real. In my experience, the reality of sleep is so far from, "I'll be sleeping from this hour to this hour," as to be hilariously ludicrous. This means that sleeping in D&D HAS to be thought of in purely gamist terms. That's where defining the term "sleep" comes in.
After doing much research, including looking at the Elf race entry, where the Trance mechanic says that they must spend four hours "semi-conscious," scouring the web for official insight, and, yes, of course, the language of the sleep spell, it is my opinion that sleep only has one definition: gaining the unconscious and prone conditions.
There are many reasons for this. When a character goes to sleep, we don't roll a dice to see if they actually fall asleep when they want, because it's a game, sleep is a required element to avoid the exhaustion condtion, and so we simply say, [insert character name] sleeps (unless they're an elf, more on that follows). In addition, one of the developers of the game, Jeremy Crawford, in a post on the Sage Advice website, says very clearly that a full-blooded elf can't even willingly go to sleep. If they lie down and say "I'm going to sleep," they just enter their semi-conscious Trance state. Ergo, an elf, that has at least one HP, can't even willingly gain the unconscious condition. One of the major reasons I came to this opinion is the language of the Sleep spell itself. It says that the spell ignores unconscious creatures. They are specifically mentioned as being ignored by the spell. Why? Because the purpose of the spell is to forcefully give an enemy the unconscious and prone conditions. In the other group, Quint, by the language of his own post, though a bit unwittingly, agrees with that opinion, saying that the spell would ignore those characters that were sleeping, because, by the terms of the game, they already have the unconscious condition. That being the case, it seems to me, that there is no magically unconscious or non-magically unconscious separation. A character either does, or does not have the unconscious condition. And the only place in all the rules that addresses waking a character up from sleep, IS the description of the Sleep spell, which says, "the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake."
Obviously, as I mentioned from the get-go of this post, that opinion has a rather large effect on the game in general. Though, not so much on our game, because, knowing that, I will, actively, make sure not to exploit it to the unnecessary advantage of your enemies. Knowing that when a player has their character willingly gain the unconscious and prone conditions for a period of hours in order to regain hit points, the use of spell slots, and avoid gaining levels in exhaustion, they are doing so because the game requires that they do so, it would be a serious d-bag move to specifically send enemies to attack when it requires a character's action to wake up another character. I can think of things, as a player, that could wake up an entire group of characters at once. One of those being the Thunderwave spell. To me, a thunderous boom that can be heard out to 300 feet, would definitely shake the ground vigorously enough to wake up an unconscious creature. I'm sure you all can come up with even more creative and cool ways to wake up a group of people, because, magic, and such... :)
Which brings me back to where we are, in-game, right now. If we enter initiative, it would require an actual action by Jun or Bellaluna to wake up their comrades, if they felt they needed to do so. They would need to be within 5' of the PC and us an action to shake/slap them awake, as per the language of the spell Sleep. This will also be the paradigm moving forward. I realize that we've already had a "while you were sleeping" encounter that did not follow these rules, but none of those characters actually had the ability to magically induce sleep, so I did not, at that point, research it very carefully. Moving forward, this is how I would like to rule it.
Please, do chime in with your thoughts on the matter. Nothing is ever set in stone with me. Though, I will say, it would take some solid evidence from officially published material to convince me to change my opinion on this one, but I want everyone to have fun, and if this ruling destroys that chance, I'm perfectly willing to discuss other options that work within the mechanics of the rules. :)
I realize the wording of the sleep spell does not include this option, but it seems only logical and scientifically true, that a loud sound should give them a chance to wake up. Please don't ban me for trying to bring true, proven, RL science into a fantasy game! :D
So maybe a shout will give them a chance to make a perception (sound) against a DC you would have to determine?
Also, about the trance state, could that be done in a sitting position? Maybe with one's back against a tree trunk/pole/wall of some sort? So one is not prone?
Bellaluna, I agree that in real life, a loud sound does have a chance of waking someone up. However, also in real life, when I say, "I'm going to sleep," what I actually mean is "I'm going to lie down in my bed, and hope that sleep is what follows." In my own real life experience, unfortunately, that is far less certain that I would like it to be. In D&D when you say a character is going to sleep, you are saying that they are going to voluntarily gain the unconscious and prone conditions, and it happens at the exact moment that you say it does. Like I mentioned in the long post, we don't roll dice for the chance that your character actually falls asleep when you say they do, that would be annoying, but realistic. Thus, for the purposes of the game, I'm saying that on the other side of things, the wake up side, we have to stay true to the game as well. It is not realistic, in any way, shape, or form.
As to your question about elf Trance, yes, it can very easily be done sitting up. They are, after all, by game terms, "semi-conscious." Don't get me started on trying to define what THAT means in game terms!!! :P
You could always use Passive Perception against the DC of the sound intended to wake us. Thus, no roll. In any event, I have no issue with your approach other than coming up with a concrete house rule for the distance and action economy necessary to shake or slap someone awake. It may work better if you simply ask if the watchers attempt to wake us, and if so, how? Once they take action, you resolve as you see fit "behind the screen" as to who wakes, and how quickly that occurs. With this entire issue, we, as characters, should always indicate what we are sleeping in (armor?), and what weapons are handy.
As to your question about elf Trance, yes, it can very easily be done sitting up. They are, after all, by game terms, "semi-conscious." Don't get me started on trying to define what THAT means in game terms!!! :P
Hahahaha!!!
And while I don't really agree with it, (Seems like 3.5 had a DC for waking up due to sound) I'll accept your ruling of course.
... we, as characters, should always indicate what we are sleeping in (armor?), and what weapons are handy.
Armor? Weapons? Kinda hard for me 'take those off'. ;)
You could always use Passive Perception against the DC of the sound intended to wake us. Thus, no roll. In any event, I have no issue with your approach other than coming up with a concrete house rule for the distance and action economy necessary to shake or slap someone awake. It may work better if you simply ask if the watchers attempt to wake us, and if so, how? Once they take action, you resolve as you see fit "behind the screen" as to who wakes, and how quickly that occurs. With this entire issue, we, as characters, should always indicate what we are sleeping in (armor?), and what weapons are handy.
Good point. In my head I had it figured as you need to be adjacent to the creature you are trying to wake, and the wake up could be as easy as the interact with an object action, one of which you get for free on a combat turn anyway. That way you could potentially, if they were sleeping close enough together, wake up two characters simultaneously. Move to a square that is adjacent to both, use the free interact with an object everyone gets to wake up one, and then use your action to interact with another object to wake up the other. Yes, I realize I just defined sleeping PCs as objects. In game terms, it seems like a pretty good fit. :P
Yes, I realize I just defined sleeping PCs as objects.
Well, at least in Luna's case, her body is her armor and weapons, so she kinda is an object right? ;)
Yes, I realize I just defined sleeping PCs as objects.Well, at least in Luna's case, her body is her armor and weapons, so she kinda is an object right? ;)
I try with all my might not to objectify women, even imaginary ones. ;)
Perhaps as a compromise, we can differentiate "Magical" and "Non-Magical" sleep? something along these lines:
Non-Magical Sleep: while you are sleeping (usually by choosing to go to bed, lay down, and become unconscious), you can be wakened by loud noises (per the rules for perception).
Magical Sleep: Magical sleep is created by one or more magical effects, such as the Sleep spell. Should a creature succumb to magical sleep, they are much harder to rouse, and they must be physically interacted with or take physical damage in order to waken, as the magic prevents them from hearing loud external noises.
Non-Magical Sleep can be upgraded to Magical sleep by a creature being the target of a spell that causes sleep.
That should satisfy everything, and still make magical sleep cast by enemies dangerous. Thoughts?
I like Jun's idea.
I love Jun's idea, my worry with differentiating the two was that a character could avoid magical sleep by simply being non-magically asleep. Allowing for a non-magically sleeping creature to still be affected by magical sleep, takes away that loophole. I'm all on bored for that, if everyone else is?
Your all on bored Mended? So your boring a hole through the board? ;) - Sorry, couldn't resist! :D
Yes, bored, because it's boring how simple that fix is... :P Good catch. I don't grammar good.
In pathfinder, at least, they indicated a character has just a -20 to perception rolls for being asleep, so if they can beat the DC of the perception check (sounds of combat was a literal -10, which worked cause the DC increased because of distance and walls, etc.)then they could hear the noise and wake up.
Jun's plan works for me.
Yep, Jun's approach is fine.
Yeah...real genius...
Just an FYI for everyone. I've sent a PM to Ashrie asking about whether or not it is a good idea for him to continue on with us. His infrequent and sporadic posting history does not meet up with my original recruitment guidelines of frequent posting. If it is due to circumstances beyond control, obviously, I'll do my best to accommodate moving forward, but if his posting history is any indication of his actual ability to participate, then it would be best, in my opinion, if he withdraw his character from the game. Just wanted everyone to be aware. :)
I agree Mended. Hope he doesn't need to withdraw, but ...
This sure seems to be moving slow when we are supposed to be doing daily posts ... just saying.
Good morrow all! I have come to a very important decision that affects you all. I'm going to close this campaign, sort of. It appears as though only a few members of this campaign are still interested in continuing in any regular fashion, and the other group has already shrunk to five (with one that is also pretty irregular about posting).
I would like to invite all those from this campaign that want to continue adventuring in Eafphqu, investigating the troubles of Midvale Province, and helping out Blueblossom Haven, to move right on over to the other campaign. It just so happens that both groups are on the Gaukridotr farm at the moment. Though there's a bit of a time difference. I'm going to be posting one last post here in the gameplay thread to narrate what happened during the time lapse. You can read it or not to see what's happened with your characters before they met up with the other group of Akassa's volunteers.
Essentially, this is the end of this campaign thread, but no of this group's adventures, if you head on over to the other game. Keeping everyone in one place will make things a lot easier on me for tracking purposes, which I'm very much looking forward to. :)
See you over there!!!
Well, as I'm sure you can guess, I'll move on over. Hope to see you all there so we can corrupt the goodies with our grey, neutral ways.
I too will head on over! I can only hope the Highlander is welcome...