Opening discussion here! Welcome, guys. I'll wait for everybody to check in here - we have some subjects to deal with before we start :)
I should have all my character info moved over to this alias by today, most likely.
Hello! Thank you!
Ready to adjust whatever needed.
Thanks for the pick!
Looking forward to this. Is having our background as a link okay or do you want it copied into a spoiler?
What kind of changes would you like to see?
Also, I forgot to say hello, so hello!
I know you, Micah, and Ezrah are paladins, is anyone else? My background is written such that I could easily tie background in with a paladin's, if you or anybody else wanted to.
Hello!
@GM- what all would you like in the info that shows up at the top of every post?
Present!
Though I wish you'd said "no external character sheets" from the start (or maybe you did and I missed it)? I would have just put it in there to begin with instead of my usual Myth-weavers sheet. Shouldn't take TOO muh effort to port everything over though.
And Pakiru is not a Paladin. He is very very not a Paladin.
Checking in.
Nesipho is Magus/Slayer/Oracle, but also LG, so should get along with the paladins just fine :).
Now that the selection is done, I can go through other peoples back stories and look for possible tie ins for those that may be interested.
Hi all. Thanks for the pick! This campaign is going to be a blast.
Let me know what changes need to be made.
Kejak LG - Monk/Inquisitor/Investigator - Trickster (Champion)
Lyra NG - Warpriest/Rogue/Sorcerer - Trickster (Champion)
Mica Haynes LG - Paladin/Sorcerer/[Bloodrager5/DD7] - Guardian (Archmage)
Ezra Haynes LG - Paladin/Oracle/Bard - Hierophant (Marshall)
Nesipho Inkosi NG - Magus/Slayer/Oracle - Archmage (Trickster)
Pakiru Tamrat NG LG - Fighter/Shaman/Spiritualist - Hierophant (Champion)
This is what we are, more or less. Of course, the archetypes can change the class a lot, but with this we should have an idea of what we can do.
Nesipho Inkosi NG - Magus/Slayer/Oracle - Archmage (Trickster)
Alignment is LG. Realized I'd updated it in my stat block, but not my profile alignment specific slot.
Pakiru Tamrat
NGLG - Fighter/Shaman/Spiritualist - Hierophant (Champion)
Hm? No, not LG. NG.
Kejak LG - Monk/Inquisitor/Investigator - Trickster (Champion)
Lyra NG - Warpriest/Rogue/Sorcerer - Trickster (Champion)
Mica Haynes LG - Paladin/Sorcerer/[Bloodrager5/DD7] - Guardian (Archmage)
Ezra Haynes LG - Paladin/Oracle/Bard - Hierophant (Marshall)
Nesipho Inkosi
NGLG - Magus/Slayer/Oracle - Archmage (Trickster)Pakiru Tamrat NG
LG- Fighter/Shaman/Spiritualist - Hierophant (Champion)
I'm guessing there will be some changes there... Probably either Lyra or Kejak will be switching to Champion(trickster), and I'm guessing Ezra will be Marshal(hierophant)...
Also, Pakiru, you're a NG Aasimar... How "very, very not a paladin" can you be?
Thanks Kejak. Also, I will be on a cruise with the family Apr 30 to May 8, but I plan to post from hotels and islands, so there should be only a minor interruption in my posting rate.
Also, Pakiru, you're a NG Aasimar... How "very, very not a paladin" can you be?
As stated, Pakiru has good intentions but his morals don't exactly mesh with those of normal society in some places.
Paladins tend to frown on things like Necromancy, whether it's for a good cause or not.
The only difference between Champion (Trickster) and Trickster (Champion) is the 10th tier ability and health per tier, right?
Correct .
Pakiru- I don't expressly object to all necromancy... I think I have a couple necromancy spells, actually (like false life). As long as you're not raising the dead to do your bidding (or throwing around unholy blights) I don't think it's going to be a real big deal?
Yeah, sorry about the confusion with the alignments :) But I think you get it.
As for Necromancy, Kejak's opinion:
Speak with the dead = ok
Kill people to get Temporary HP = not ok
Raise dead = not ok
Mostly. Then we should analyse every situation individually, of course.
As long as you're not raising the dead to do your bidding
This was to be the plan, on occasion. The curse of "Whole party must conform to one person because a Paladin exists" strikes again. =/
I guess I should ask now how you feel about ritual cannibalism since I need to know if I have to change my character more.
I mean, most of the party is LG... I can't imagine I'd be the only one with objections to intrinsically evil spells (or even that it would just be both paladins). Plus I have trouble imagining a situation where you could possibly do more good by creating a bunch of undead (that are dramatically less powerful than us) than we could do by ourselves...
As for canabalism- I guess that would depend on Archlich's cosmology... If bodies are nothing more than meat suits for the soul to inhabit on this plane, I don't really care what happens to the meat once it's empty; if corpses have some connection to or influence over the soul then I'll have a big problem with it.
Are we even using the extremely rigid "These things are evil always evil no matter what they're used for" interpretation of such spells?
Most people seem to recognize how silly that is in the scenarios it leads to (you can literally change your alignment to Good, from no matter how Evil, by spamming some low level [Good] spell for long enough...) and I've never seen it actually used.
As for how useful it would be, you'd be surprised at how useful low level undead can be. Presumably, combat is not going to be our only goal, here. Some zombified oxen can be quite useful on a long trip.
Ezra is not super-prickly about customs and rituals. But evil spells would certainly make him very uncomfortable and (while he is not a violent man) undead would only live until he got a chance to channel.
How feasable is it to use summon spells instead?
Oh, they're definitely evil. I don't think it's silly at all. I don't speak a neutral good character doing so - if it's the case, then I guess we do have a problem. I had understood Pakiru to be spiritual, tormented, but still on the good side. If it's not the case, then please forgive me to misunderstand the theme.
And I most definitely said more than once to keep everything on Paizo, not externally. No harm done - we have time to adjust accordingly.
Here's the way you guys are allotted in my sheet:
Archmage: Nesipho Inkosi (Nature Shall Speak)
Champion: Lyra (Spectre of Another Life)
Guardian: Micah Raynes (No Rest for Old Man)
Hierophant: Pakiru Tamrat (Fragments of Someone Else)
Marshal: Ezra Raynes (Vanguard of the Rearguard)
Trickster: Kejak (Faith in Question)
Observe the traits don't fully match, which is one of the changed we need to make. More comments to come on the next days...
I am fine either way.
As a player I've always been of the opinion that enchantment/mind control is as ambiguous or even more morally wrong than raising the dead. And Lyra is heavily focused on that.
As far as I know, Animate Dead doesn't mess with the soul at all - it just makes it uninhabitable in the same way that rotting does. I don't think a 3rd/4th level spell would be powerful enough to do with a soul, after all. Creating intelligent undead (Create Undead spell), which I think probably does, seeing as they have memories and personalities.
Edit: Ah left the window open too long, we already have deciding posts.
Looking over the info now.
Edit v2:
Okay I don't think that's too much of an issue for me to change traits. I'll probably theme Spectre of Another Life to having something to do with the ritual Lyra underwent as a kid, kinda merging with her parent's souls a bit. I need to change skills though, since I no longer have Knowledge Nature.
Just a reminder, Ezra has the tongues curse, so he only speaks Celestial or Infernal in combat. If you guys could throw a rank into linguistics for me it would help alot.
Got you covered on both those languages Ezra. Though I'm now tempted to remove them both just for interesting RP reasons :).
Team work feats: This is what I currently have slotted out.
Outflank, Paired Opportunists, Lookout, Escape Route
Note I have 4 instead of 3 due to class features.
Ezra has lookout as well, along with shake it off, which would be a solid choice to work from as well if multiple party members take it - though bunching together to get benefits has some downside tactical risks.
I'm looking for one (or more) person to take both Outflank and Paired Opportunists. Or if anyone has suggestions for other teamwork feats they'd like to explore...
I was going to amend my comments about animate dead to say that if the GM's cosmology was different than the default Golarion canon regarding that I would gladly change my stance but obviously that's not the case.
For teamwork feats- isn't there one where you count as flanking when you're adjacent or something like that? I ask because I have several abilities to protect people that only work if you're adjacent to me. Other than that, I like lookout and I'm all for anything that grants AoOs. (And I have a couple tricks for protecting you if you need to go flank).
I'll change my campaign feat too. Is someone covering diplomacy or should I try to put ranks in it too?
Ive got a good diplomacy. and I can understand all languages(even in combat). But I only speak Infernal and Celestial durring combat.
I have to know lots of languages for enchantment, so I'm good for that already.
So as a note, I don't think my character works well for most teamwork feats - I've got lots of invisibility and can't be detected by magic. That'd apply to allies as well, so I'm not sure I can use teamwork feats when my allies can't see me.
If we figure something out, I can reconsider, but for right now I'm gonna just fill up the feat slot I left open with something else.
Nesipho- in case it wasn't clear, I'm willing to take outflank and paired opportunist. I'd like them even more if we can make them work while side by side, and I'm not likely to grant you many AoO but I'd be thrilled to take as many AoOs as you can grant. Also, I don't want to open a can of worms (especially if it's too late to change) but why didn't you take the Eldritch Scion magus archetype?
@Lyra- we get bonus teamwork feats every 4 levels (per the original recruitment post). Also, if you're utterly undetectable you won't be able to use any language based effects (since nobody will be able to hear you)... Arguably you might not even be able to use spells that allow telepathic control because they wouldn't be able to detect your mental commands...
@Lyra- we get bonus teamwork feats every 4 levels (per the original recruitment post). Also, if you're completely undetectable you won't be able to use any language based effects (since nobody will be able to hear you)... Arguably you might not even be able to use spells that allow telepathic control because they wouldn't be able to detect your mental commands...
I didn't remember seeing the teamwork feat thing, I will re-check that.
For clarification:
This grants its bonded user the ability to become utterly undetectable while invisible. While invisible and in physical contact with this item, the bonded creature can't be detected or scryed by any method.
It's a bit vague, but I think it means that I cannot be detected via any form of magic (true seeing, detect invisibility). I do think I would still be able to talk, cast spells, etc and be heard if I wanted to. If I were truly 100% undetectable from any source, there would be no challenge except from AoE effects that got lucky.
But it's pretty hard to help an ally flank if they can't really see me, unless I'm constantly yelling or something. There may be a few that will still work out. Maybe teamwork feats work as long as I have a way to communicate that I am helping my ally?
Probably help to get clarification from Archlich.
Edit: Probably sticking with Outflank, Escape Route and Lookout.
It's a poorly worded power that we should get clarification from the GM on (I actually have it too in case I really need to stealth).
The gang up feat (which I have) lets me count as flanking regardless of positioning, so long as at least 2 other allies are threatening the target. That one is not a team work feat though.
As to Eldritch Scion... about a third of the characters I play in pathfinder end up being Magus. And every time I look at different archetypes, and always end up coming back to the vanilla flavored variant of them. Eldritch Scion I considered here, to synergize on my stats, but ultimately disliked giving up spell recall, particularly in exchange for bloodline powers (many of which are "as a standard action..."). Maybe I just haven't come across the right bloodline, but spell recalls flexibility just appeals to me over all, whereas the blood lines abilities too often interfere with a magus default combat tactic of using spell combat each round.
Oh, they're definitely evil. I don't think it's silly at all. I don't speak a neutral good character doing so - if it's the case, then I guess we do have a problem. I had understood Pakiru to be spiritual, tormented, but still on the good side. If it's not the case, then please forgive me to misunderstand the theme.
He's very much on the good side, though hardly tormented. The concept was more of a Witch Doctor sort. Creepy-seeming things, but always with good intent and purpose. Like the JuJu Oracle before Paizo decided to randomly change it, or the Witch Doctor from Diablo 3 (who, despite having zombies and poison as his main weapons, is the most genuinely good and kind character in the game).
Since that won't work, apparently, I'll drop the nuance and he's just a generic good guy I guess.
I had assumed for this campaign more shades of gray were to be available, considering one of our main opponents is a god of Creation, who is not evil, from your description (just disruptive to the natural order that has evolved since the beginning of his slumber). If this is to be a more straightforward "Kill the bad guys" plot, I can do a bit of tweaking for that.
can I use an efficiant quiver with quick draw and mythic quick draw to draw scrolls as a free action?
@Nesipho (and GM)- how does gang up interact with out flank? If three of us threaten does only Nes get the +2 to hit? If he crits in that formation does it trigger the AoO from outflank for me? What if I crit the enemy, does he get one?
@pakiru- I think there's a ton of room for nuance in between 'I want to use evil magic whenever it suits me' and 'lawful-stupid smite-fest'... someone who draws their power from spirits (that sometimes manifest in ghostly semi-solid forms around him) should have plenty of ways to be a creepy but good hearted hero without needing to profane corpses or potentially interfere with a soul's smooth transition to the afterlife.
About stuff like invisibility, nondetection, etc.: if an enemy doesn't know where you are, you aren't helping an ally by flanking him at all. Flank is supposed to be something like "let's force him to look into many directions and take advantage of this subtle distraction" type of thing in my interpretation.
Unless the ability says different, if you speak something, the enemies are usually able to hear and point the square the sound came from. That said, the way I see most enchantments (maybe except the ones clearly based in sound) is as a combination of sounds, gestures, expressions, etc... It's all very vague and case by case, but certainly someone that can't be noticed by the enemies will have difficulties enchanting them with certain effects.
@Sundakan: if your character is gonna become something generic, then he's definitely not ideal for this game. I'm sorry, but I don't buy the whole ranting about shades of grey and whatnot - certain things in a game balanced based in numbers and chance on the roll of dice are truly black and white, and ignoring it is basically just houseruling against alignments. Please contact me via PM with concrete ideas to fix this misunderstanding on the character.
@Nesipho (and GM)- how does gang up interact with out flank? If three of us threaten does only Nes get the +2 to hit? If he crits in that formation does it trigger the AoO from outflank for me? What if I crit the enemy, does he get one?
Gang Up is excellent. Even though it's terribly worded, I always ruled it benefits only the person with the feat. He takes advantage of flanking, not his allies unless they have the same feat or position themselves accordingly.
@Nesipho (and GM)- how does gang up interact with out flank? If three of us threaten does only Nes get the +2 to hit? If he crits in that formation does it trigger the AoO from outflank for me? What if I crit the enemy, does he get one?Gang Up is excellent. Even though it's terribly worded, I always ruled it benefits only the person with the feat. He takes advantage of flanking, not his allies unless they have the same feat or position themselves accordingly.
Right. GM can confirm his ruling, but I'd assume outflank would only trigger if you were actually in a flanking position with me or had gang up also. If we did a 3-some, you could still benefit allies with bodyguard, while gaining the extra AoO's from paired opportunist only.
For example
.N
ME
.X
Where N would be me, M is you, E is an enemy, and X is another character with at least Outflank. Either me or X getting a crit then triggers outflank. The AoO from outflank triggers paired opportunist for all involved that have it.
Or you pick up the gang up feat at some point then position for either of us doesn't matter so long as a 3rd party member is threatening the target.
can I use an efficiant quiver with quick draw and mythic quick draw to draw scrolls as a free action?
Yes... I don't particularly like much the idea of using an efficient quiver for it (maybe not the arrows compartment?) but that's ok :)
Side note: please keep in mind the rules of crafting. Scrolls aren't as attractive as you'd think...
Nesipho is correct on Gang Up and Outflank.
I dont plan to craft scrolls. will they be difficult to acquire durring gameplay?
@pakiru- I think there's a ton of room for nuance in between 'I want to use evil magic whenever it suits me' and 'lawful-stupid smite-fest'... someone who draws their power from spirits (that sometimes manifest in ghostly semi-solid forms around him) should have plenty of ways to be a creepy but good hearted hero without needing to profane corpses or potentially interfere with a soul's smooth transition to the afterlife.
That's the thing I've never gotten though, raising the dead demonstrably does NOTHING to the soul. It's why someone can be a Ghost and a Zombie at the same time, and Resurrection can be used t bring back an undead person.
@Archlich: I'll PM you later tonight, when I have more time.
Okay so I probably won't be dominating people much during combat, that's okay. My other compulsions like confusion should be fine though.
Is it fair to assume that if a spell doesn't have somatic components, it would only require vocals to affect a target?
Ok... teamwork feats I've seen mentioned so far:
- Outflank
- Paired Opportunists
- Lookout
- Escape Route
- Shake it Off
Is there anything else anyone would like to add to the list or should we all choose from these 5?
They all seem ok to me. I've had a look and found also these ones, maybe any of you are interested:
For spellcasters, Spell Chain and maybe Mystical Reverberation.
For combat positioning, Pack Attack can help get out of reach if you only attack once, or make room for anyone else.
For stealth utility, Scion of the Land can help if anyone of us is able to hide tracks (can't remember right now) and Stealth Synergy can help mitigate low rolls on stealth (and we know it only needs one low roll to screw the whole team), also everyone would take advantage of the guy who can roll twice and add 1d8 .
I am using Unarmed Combat, so I won't crit often, though I will probably take some of the "crit proc AoO" chain feats anyway.
Spell Chain could be a good one against those high SR foes.
I'm not sure I like Mystical Reverberation, one player spending a standard (basically using their turn) to let another casting with metamagic doesn't feel like a good trade off in most cases.
Pack attack also has potential.
Stealth Synergy may be to situational, or maybe not. That will depend on the game overall. That might be a good one to put on the back burner and take at a later time for a feat selection if we feel we need it.
I should be able to generate plenty of crits for you Kejak to chain off of. My crit range is 14-20, and when in a flanking position, studied target, and an arcane point used to boost my weapon bonuses puts me at +33/+28/+23 to hit, with another +5 added on my crit confirmation rolls.
Yes, Mystical Reverberation I was thinking of it more in an out-of-combat situation, where spending a standard is not a problem (for Extend Spell or whatsoever). Too situational, though, but with the amount of tricks you guys are able to pull out your sleeves, one never knows...
Anyway, from the original 5 feats I can only choose 3, and I'm so undecided... all seem good feats. So I'll probably stick to what the majority of you pick.
Outflank and paired opportunist are shoe-ins for me. The others I could change.
I should note though that with lookout everyone adjacent to me would get to act in a surprise round as the slayer archetype I took always allows me to act in the surprise round, so its a very strong feat for me to have/share with adjacent allies.
I have ways myself to deal with possible AoO (Dimension Dervish chain, e.g.), so I could skip Escape Route.
I love Shake it off, though I have the feeling that it won't be as useful if only for the fact that is a reactive thing (i.e. you don't get to choose when you roll a Save, so we would be clustering adjacent to each other all the time just in case).
These are my thoughts.